[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Icaro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I shiver to think what kind of person MIGHT be IRL someone who has this beliefs for a game.

Why, though? It's... just a game.

And mostly in response to Kraftwerk and others that I haven't directly responded to yet, because now this thread has moved moreso to a philosophical discussion of "how one derives enjoyment and why is it subjective to the individual, and how that relates to morality":

I guess it all depends on where on the following spectrum you fall: On one extreme, Everquest is a game. On the other extreme, Everquest is a virtual world/community. Some might veer towards one extreme or the other, or fall somewhere in the middle.

On one hand, Everquest is a game. Of course, there's no "winning Everquest", but there are certain goals you have for yourself, whether it be leveling X number of toons to max level, being the person in your guild everyone can count on for help, gearing up your own toon with best in slot equipment, being known on the server for having the most skill at your class or most knowledgeable about the game, for playing vigilante and training the big bad guilds until you're banned repeatedly, being the most popular person on the server, having the most unique name, wtfever. And whatever goal you have, there is a set of means to an end. There is a way to get from point A to point B. Unfortunately, for some "ways to play the game", this takes investment of your time. And since loot just doesn't get handed out when you hail a NPC, there is a certain degree of competition for that loot. And that loot isn't always for show... a lot of it, especially in the case of melee classes, helps make your toon more effective in its role.

So the question becomes, how much of my personal time do I want to invest in reaching my goals in this game? For some, that means tying themselves to a pager or batphone and being able to log in for a raid at all times of the day. For others, that means a few hours a night, casually. Most fall somewhere in between.

Games have rules. The rules for this game are posted here on the forum. This helps players objectively decide which actions in the game are "legal" or "illegal". Just as you wouldn't move a particular chess piece in a way not set forth by the rules of chess, lest the other player accuse you of "not playing fair" or "cheating", you wouldn't train the shit out of a particular camp to get the loot that you want so you can reach one of your personal goals, lest the other players cry foul, petition you, and you get banned for not following the rules.

And, as in any game, you don't make up rules to suit your particular situation when your back is against the wall, and expect other players to follow them. When you are in a position of checkmate in chess, you don't magically move your queen in some weird jacked up route that places you out of checkmate. Because you can't just make up rules to benefit you after you've been placed at a disadvantage. You don't suddenly decide "well, the rules say I lost my camp because I died, and I don't like those rules, so here guys... here's my new 'rules' that I should get my camp back, and if you don't let me have the camp back, you're all douchebags."

Imagine if you were playing chess and just put your opponent in a position of checkmate, and he's like "Well, I'm going to move my queen way over here so you can't win the game, because I don't like the particular rule that states I can only move my queen in a certain way. And if you don't accept that, you're a douchebag." Granted, it's not very parallel to the situation the OP is talking about, except the similarity is: games have rules, and all players are expected to follow them out of respect for playing the game fairly and consistently, so all other players know what to expect, and you don't just make up rules to benefit yourself in certain situations. There's no moral code when you are playing a game and just plainly following the rules. Is it immoral to not let your opponent move his queen in a weird squiggly pattern in chess to get out of checkmate? Of course not.

Then, on the other hand, there are those who view this as a virtual world/community and treat this as a microcosm of life. I get that, because I kind of straddle the fence between both extremes. I like to buff out some newbs or give them some plat once in a while. I like it when my guild helps CR another guild in a plane. I like being the good guys. I like having a good reputation on the server.

But, when I read what Kraftwerk said, I couldn't help but say to myself "Well, if the morally right thing to do is to ensure the enjoyment of everyone on this server, then wouldn't it be immoral to do anything but spend all of your time buffing newbies and give them plat?" Where do you draw the line between helping others, and doing things for yourself? What about the person who spends 99% of the time helping others, but that 1% of the time they do something for personal gain, they're suddenly immoral or selfish?

And if people are THAT concerned about always doing good towards others and helping out other people in a game/virtual world, then I would challenge them to take that one huge step forward... if you think doing what is morally right in a game community is THAT important, and we should all strive to make it a better place with no exceptions, then put your money (well, time... but time = money so I did an algebraic substitution) where your mouth is... and take the time you're spending playing Everquest in an idealistic fashion, and go volunteer your time helping others in REAL LIFE who truly need help. Wouldn't THAT make more sense from a morality point of view?

But no, we're all sitting here in this game/virtual world, judging other people for our own subjective versions of enjoyment of the game.

It's all subjective opinion. Just like Ace said above... if you want to call the people who claimed the camp after the enchanter died as greedy for not surrendering the camp back to the enchanter, you can just as easily call the enchanter who monopolized the camp all day and then died greedy for expecting he should get it back after he lost is claim. Neither opinion is "right", except for in the eyes of the person who holds that opinion.

If the enchanter loses the camp and then leaves the server and that you are worried that somehow weakens the community, why are you not concerned that the people coming to claim the camp get frustrated that they felt compelled to surrender the camp back, and then leave the server because they felt that person was being selfish? Wouldn't that also weaken the community? Or is one reason to leave the server valid, and the other is not?

Only one of those scenarios is backed up by the game's rules.

It all depends on how you play and what you play for. Just don't expect everyone else to play the same way, or derive enjoyment the same way. It's all subjective. And if you're gonna be that altruistic in a game, spend that time being altruistic in real life where people derive real, life-changing benefit from it. Don't waste that time looking down on a bunch of strangers in an internet game, please.