[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why can't you quote properly suddenly? You didn't have any problem before?

Can't or wont? I didn't feel like it :P

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's also the opposite of what I actually said, which was that with context provided, Q17 provides the basis for the correct call, from which the actual ruling followed from. Disagree or not, the line of reasoning is straightforward and clear.

Nope its very clear that Q17 doesn't provide an answer for the situation... is q17 detailed elsewhere? Its not about disagreement its about simple reading comprehension. Nothing in Q17 says what you says it does. Saying otherwise is just a lie.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Obviously I think all the evidence I've referred to so far is valid. As for your argument, I think the validity of your evidence is hit and miss. You have claimed analogies to the FE/BDA split but there are critical differences in the state of the rules from then to now as well as the actions of both guilds. You compared to a merge with another guild but there was no merge and basically all the members came from one place, so there are critical differences there as well. You claim different leadership, but the leader of Forsaken was also a leader in TMO. You claim no access to the guildbank, but we know there was some overlap. You claim DKP was wiped but there seems to be influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken DKP. Basically all the premises of your argument require twisting or spinning to make them into what you want to say. Meanwhile, the argument put forward by Rogean and many people here is really straightforward and requires no contortions at all.

I really don't understand how this is so hard for you. FE/BDA split was an anecdote not a point of reference for a ruling. Same goes for merging with another guild. Do you think that if Rampage merged into BDA that BDA would then be considered class C?
It is different leadership. Corova was the guild leader with multiple officers under him in TMO which would include detoxx and swage. Forsaken has a new leader and mostly new officers -swage including a couple people who are no longer officers. How can you claim this guildbank information? You are operating on assumption not fact. DKP was wiped...seems is weak language indication you don't know what you are talking about. An appeal to the masses doesn't make your argument fact. I hope you realize this.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the benefits of being on the side that actually follows with what actually happened is the ability to laugh at and ignore statements like "seems like a ridiculous argument". As for what you posted, no, that's not what I said at all, and you probably know that, but strawmen are much easier to knock down, amirite?

It's not a strawman I was following your logical path. This seems to indication that the problem with Forsaken is that they have class C things. Items/experience etc. It takes away from your argument which is why I pointed it out.

Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Class C players can of course be in a class R guild... but they can't all come from a single class C guild and have no players from a class R guild and suddenly call themselves a class R guild.

Why? What is the reasoning behind this?

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, support: what actually happened. Tends to trump your theorycrafting. All you can say to rebut is "Rogean was wrong", but you can't prove how, just reiterate an opinion whose support has been dismissed.

How could I prove it... its an opinion. You don't seem to realize this. We both have opinions about how something should be handled and its based on a very unclear rule without any precedent. Is this the problem you are having?

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Forsaken won the race for every mob it went for, could do so with VP geared characters, under a raid leader it had followed for months or years, playing with players who had been playing together at that gear level for just as long. No class R guild can claim all this. Given Forsaken was immediately booted out of class R, your declaration that it did not is simply false. Had it been considered a fair place for it to be, it would not have been removed, unless we fall back on your "Rogean was wrong" opinion which you need to support.

Now you are saying Forsaken was booted out of Class R because it was dominant? I thought it was a 30 day lockout thing? Pick your argument please.
If a Class R guild was dominant in Class R and never killed Class C targets would it be kicked out? What rule says this?

The Rogean is wrong opinion is easy to prove. There isn't a clear rule that accounted for this situation. He made a decision based on a rule that says Guild Type C can't kill Guild Type R mobs unless they wait for 30 days.
The rule did not see if a portion of a Guild Type C guild make a completely new guild with new infrastructure they also can not kill Type R mobs for 30 days.

The purpose of the rule is to prevent Class C guilds from taking dragonloots from Class R guilds. If this rule wasn't in place TMO or IB or Rampage etc would just kill your mobs. That wasn't what happened here. Forsaken is a new entity who had a desire to be in Class R until they can get their footing before entering Class C.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My premises are all facts, not opinions. Opinion is you attempting to dismiss them as less valid than they are, such as claiming the raid leader of TMO going to guild leader of Forsaken is enough of a difference to claim "different leadership". I don't need to do that, "raid leader of TMO" is quite enough. That's just one example.

But your premises aren't all facts. Raid Leadership in TMO isn't the same as Leadership. Raid leaders are people who can be on and call the shots. They don't run the guild deal with the bank or administration etc etc. Anyone can be a raid leader if they know the encounter and arent afraid to bark orders. Sorry if this isn't clear to you.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The argument made from my premises is my opinion, but unlike your theorycraft, it also matches what actually happened in practice. This is a pretty key point.

Except it doesn't even if you claim so. The big hangup is the root of your argument that Q17 clearly covers this situation. Clearly it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is it just my opinion that Forsaken is led by a raid leader of TMO? Is it just my opinion that the membership of Forsaken has all raided together before for a significant amount of time, under said raid leader? Is it just my opinion that there is no significant level of membership from outside TMO added into the mix? Is it just my opinion that the guild was comfortable enough in its relationship with TMO to use TMO tagged characters during the window? Is it just my opinion that the gear and common experience level of these raiders would give them a significant advantage over true class R guilds in any raid where that would matter?

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which one of those is just an opinion, Alarti?

Which one of those matter to the argument at hand? Seems like none. Because you have opinions does nothing to make them matter concerning the subject.
Did they use TMO tagged characters to raid? Only one that might matter here.

Originally Posted by Mistle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now, what IS my opinion: that the precedents you claimed don't hold much comparative value, that your feeling that this was like a merge doesn't hold much water when they didn't actually merge with anyone, and that your descriptions of the DKP, guild bank, and differences in leadership are grossly overstated. Completely on board with that. But alas even if I was completely wrong on all of those, it just isn't enough.

Considering that I probably know just a LITTLE bit more than you about TMO's guild bank... and TMO's leadership style... I would say you are posting your opinions from a place of comparative ignorance.