Originally Posted by Mistle
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Why can't you quote properly suddenly? You didn't have any problem before?
It's also the opposite of what I actually said, which was that with context provided, Q17 provides the basis for the correct call, from which the actual ruling followed from. Disagree or not, the line of reasoning is straightforward and clear.
Obviously I think all the evidence I've referred to so far is valid. As for your argument, I think the validity of your evidence is hit and miss. You have claimed analogies to the FE/BDA split but there are critical differences in the state of the rules from then to now as well as the actions of both guilds. You compared to a merge with another guild but there was no merge and basically all the members came from one place, so there are critical differences there as well. You claim different leadership, but the leader of Forsaken was also a leader in TMO. You claim no access to the guildbank, but we know there was some overlap. You claim DKP was wiped but there seems to be influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken DKP. Basically all the premises of your argument require twisting or spinning to make them into what you want to say. Meanwhile, the argument put forward by Rogean and many people here is really straightforward and requires no contortions at all.
One of the benefits of being on the side that actually follows with what actually happened is the ability to laugh at and ignore statements like "seems like a ridiculous argument". As for what you posted, no, that's not what I said at all, and you probably know that, but strawmen are much easier to knock down, amirite? Class C players can of course be in a class R guild... but they can't all come from a single class C guild and have no players from a class R guild and suddenly call themselves a class R guild. Again, support: what actually happened. Tends to trump your theorycrafting. All you can say to rebut is "Rogean was wrong", but you can't prove how, just reiterate an opinion whose support has been dismissed.
Forsaken won the race for every mob it went for, could do so with VP geared characters, under a raid leader it had followed for months or years, playing with players who had been playing together at that gear level for just as long. No class R guild can claim all this. Given Forsaken was immediately booted out of class R, your declaration that it did not is simply false. Had it been considered a fair place for it to be, it would not have been removed, unless we fall back on your "Rogean was wrong" opinion which you need to support.
My premises are all facts, not opinions. Opinion is you attempting to dismiss them as less valid than they are, such as claiming the raid leader of TMO going to guild leader of Forsaken is enough of a difference to claim "different leadership". I don't need to do that, "raid leader of TMO" is quite enough. That's just one example.
The argument made from my premises is my opinion, but unlike your theorycraft, it also matches what actually happened in practice. This is a pretty key point.
Is it just my opinion that Forsaken is led by a raid leader of TMO? Is it just my opinion that the membership of Forsaken has all raided together before for a significant amount of time, under said raid leader? Is it just my opinion that there is no significant level of membership from outside TMO added into the mix? Is it just my opinion that the guild was comfortable enough in its relationship with TMO to use TMO tagged characters during the window? Is it just my opinion that the gear and common experience level of these raiders would give them a significant advantage over true class R guilds in any raid where that would matter?
Which one of those is just an opinion, Alarti?
Now, what IS my opinion: that the precedents you claimed don't hold much comparative value, that your feeling that this was like a merge doesn't hold much water when they didn't actually merge with anyone, and that your descriptions of the DKP, guild bank, and differences in leadership are grossly overstated. Completely on board with that. But alas even if I was completely wrong on all of those, it just isn't enough.
|