Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrius
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The real issue is, that games like WoW made MMOs juvenile. Everything gets handed to you more or less. So people got used to log in, click click click oh i am a half god yay!
So if you try something new where people would actualy have to think, and not follow glowing dots on your minimaps it gets too much for them. Californication! The red hot was right, its happening all over the world right now.
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So I take it you're hardcore. In my book, hardcore players like hardcore features. No in-game map. Dangerous travel. No quest indicators. You have to manually talk to the non-players to get information and start quests. Death-penalty. Instant travel isn't free (something like ultima online). Etc. All of these features require more time from the player. And not all hardcore players will raid. Many of them prefer soloing/grouping. By and large, I consider myself hardcore because I like hardcore features. The difference between me and you is that I recognize I'm niche. I'm a minority. You don't. You think that this is some kind of conspiracy to dumb games down when in reality all this shows is that you're a minority. If you can stop pretending everyone else is like you, you might find some peace. That's how I got over it. I just accepted that I'm a minority.
Half of the battle is just accepting who you're. The rest of the battle is setting your expectations in a reasonable way. Over time I've become a little more mainstream, though. I have come to appreciate convenience features a heck of a lot more than I did 5 years ago. The difference is that now I understand that people have real lives and they can't be hooked to a computer when RL calls. MMORPGs need a pause button.
There's also a historical point that I should make. It has to do with preferences in RPGs. Something I think is important to see is how some people prefer questing over killing things. I refer to Black Isle Studios. They were involved a series of games. When they created these games that approached it from a quest versus combat perspective. For example, when they made Baldur's Gate I/II they did so with the expectation that it would be 50 quest and 50 combat. Contrastingly, when they made Icewind Dale I/II it was 75 combat 25 quest. Planescape: Torment was created with the goal that it would be 75 quest 25 combat. This idea of making a game based on quests or combat is easily seen elsewhere. In Diablo I/II, for instance, you see a game dominated by combat. In many of the latest MMORPGs, you see a game dominated by quest-lines and intermittent combat. In the first version of everquest, you see a game dominated by combat.
Whether the combat or the quests are interesting is another story (boring = grind). Doing quests one after the other can become a grind for me when I do it in groups because in groups I don't get immersed and don't enjoy the atmosphere and feel rushed. Grinding happens when we become bored and when what we do tends to be repetitive. When I start feeling like a grunt then everything is blurred and it necessarily becomes a grind. So it depends on interest levels. If you're doing something you don't find fun it will become a grind. Getting rid of grind is a matter of exploring yourself and playing the right game.
The idea that you must find out what game is best for you leads to a truth much more enlightening. That's that, historically, rpgs can be seen as quest heavy or combat heavy or a combination. And that a player needs to understand what they want out of a game. We should never assume that there's one game for all people. And that's the whole point behind my post(s) in this thread. There's a mainstream where you have an overall average that everyone agrees to, but there's a niche market for people who deviate. If you understand that people are different then you will understand that your disagreements do not have to be an end.
My point for you is that your disagreement with the mainstream does not have to be the end. It can be a moment where you realize a world of possibility. There're niche markets. There're numerous single player rpgs that you can mod and customize for yourself. There're small scale mmorpgs with many different flavors. You can use your disagreements to argue and complain and cause trouble or you can accept that you're different and find your cup of tea. It's inevitable that you will find your cup of tea, but you must learn who you're first.
As for me... lots of people have claimed Planescape: Torment is the best rpg ever made. They worship it. So I tried it and was disappointed because I didn't enjoy the quest heavy gameplay. I felt held back. I just wanted to grab an axe and chop everyones head off and take over the entire place and do everything my way and butcher everyone who feels differently. The game felt like a prison to me. I quit. Moral of the story is I don't think I like quest-heavy gameplay. I love killing sh**. I love to go out there without a compass and just raise hell. The other lesson is I don't think there's an rpg that can be the single best rpg for everyone.