Again, I caution everyone away from using simulations as a means of determining what is ideal. In my brief post, look at all the different variables I had to take account of to make a simple 1 minute situation with a VP Stick and Manna Robe. There are so many things to take into account, no basic mathematical breakdown on this forum is going to capture it. Sorry. Unless you can start to gain percentage chance of a roamer hitting you, percentage chance of player failure, percentage chance of your house catching fire so you step away while Liched, etc. you're not going to get an accurate picture of Non-Iksar vs. Iksar. There are too many variables to consider, you're practically going to need to create Hari Seldon's psychohistory.
A simulation is *only* as good as the assumptions it is founded on, and there are a lot of damn assumptions that are going into the math used by people when arguing necromancer, even my own. Assumptions on gearing makes a major difference, and the Erumancer makes many of those assumptions. These things matter a good deal, because sometimes even though an item has more HP, there are not good alternates to shaft your Int. I disagree with a large number of the gear decisions madew by Erumancer, and I think they show a lack of balance. Going with 15 HP on pants vs 3(6) Mana + 5 Mana + 10 HP is a dumb decision until you're capped on Int. A 55 HP ring vs 25 HP + 35 Mana + 4(6) Mana, going with the former is a dumb decision.
So I took
my personal build, and removed the Manna Robe and VP Stick to get rid of droppables. I kept items that I see as being a part of basic raiding once would do (Sky shoulders, sky wrists, Yael belt, Vox face, Blighted gear) to give a decent overview of what a more "capped" toon would be. Here is
FakeNecro with his 1418 HP, 3055 Mana and Regeneration. He sits at 205 Intelligence and 99 Stamina. With the same gear, lets see
FakeErudNecro and his 241 Intelligence. He has 1399 HP, and 3327 Mana but no Regeneration. But of course, one might say "But you're making gearing decisions you wouldn't make as an Erudite! You're stacking too much Int, you need to take more HP biased item alternatives!!!! Stop bullshitting us Sesser!" I hear you cry. The problem is there are not always excellent HP alternatives that make up for the stat loss. For example, there's more HP on a Rokyl Crystal, so why did I choose a Hand for this toon, even when Iksar?
Hand of the Reaper vs Rokyl Crystal: Hand of the Reaper = 15(6)+20 = 90 + 20 = 110 Total stat and +10 MR. Rokyl Crystal = 50 HP = 50 Mana = 100 Total stat. I'd still want to use a Hand until I was clipping 255 Int.
One may think, "Sure, but that's a rare situation! Hand of the Reaper has so much int, you sort of need to go with it. What about those other things?"
Band of Eternal Flame over a HP Ring!: 4(6) + 25 + 35 = 84 total stat. HP Ring = 55 = 55 total stat. I'd still want a Band of Eternal Flame.
Mantle of Souls? Why no Sky shoulders all of a sudden?!: 10 (6) = 60 + 75 = 135 vs 5(6)=30 + 30 = 60 + 65 = 125.
Why Tobrin's Eyepatch??!!: 15(6)= 90 vs 2(6)=12 + 30 + 30 = 72. I'd want the Eyepatch anyway.
GEBs over ShadowBound when you have so much int?: 9(6)=54 vs 15 + 15 = 30.
In the end, there is a
lack of variety of valuable item upgrades to maximize HP without shafting mana disproportionately, even when taking into consideration the 6 int per of being over 200. So by taking many HP items, you lose more Mana than it is worth simply because there are no other items that become competitive.
What do I mean by this? Perhaps the best example of a pair of items that are evenly matched but change value based on your relative position to the int cap is the Blighted Skullcap and the Platinum Tiara.
Blighted Skullcap is 8 Int, 10 HP, 20 Mana, 10 SVMagic. The SV Magic is just a cherry topper for now, not a deciding factor. 8 Int below 200 is 8(12)=96, with 10 HP and 30 Mana so 126 total stat. A Platinum Tiara, however, is just 35 HP and 50 Mana, so a mere 85 stat. Blighted Skullcap wins! Except when you go over 200 int. 8(6)=48 + 10 + 20 = 78. Now suddenly, Platinum Tiara is looking pretty good! You get more out of it, and you get to displace Mana into HP! Hell yeah! Now what if you were at 199 Int before a cap? That means 1 of the 8 int would be 12, and the other 7 would be 6. So it would be 48 + 6 = 54 + 10 + 20 = 84. Platinum Tiara still pulling ahead by a squeeker! So what we can now say is when you're at 198 Int or lower without a hat on, the Blighted Skullcap is superior. When you're at 199 or greater intelligence, the Platinum Tiara is better.
That is one slot where you have plenty of variety where you have different items with similar values that change based upon your position in the intelligence cap. Most slots lack this variety. So even if you wanted to, you couldn't shaft some intelligence from the Erudite in the example without losing overall stats.
I hope the grand point is getting across: When we break things down into this type of math, we're making vast numbers of assumptions. These assumptions change the output of the simulation, and make it appear differently. This obscures the truth, and makes it hard to get a feel for what is going on. Even what I write in this thread is subject to a number of assumptions to limit the external validity. I make a number of assumptions, many of which may not even be apparent to me, when I break down the gear this way. The one I can think of that is most apparent is that 1 Mana is equal to 1 Health. But this changes from situation to situation, as I discussed in my previous thread.
Try it. Play two necromancers. Ask your friends if they have a necromancer toon, and play theirs for a bit. Spend a day rolling around as a Non-Iksar, and then a day rolling around as an Iksar. Go solo in HS for a bit.
Experience the difference. There is only one way to truly account for the many variables outside of our assumptions, and that is to get into the world where those variables are unavoidable.
How about accounting for the value of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKvothe
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Imagine: you're FD, very low hp, and your former pet (undead, obviously, so see invis) is standing right next to you. You're just gonna have to lie there for a while, getting no exp and bored out of your mind. With iksar regen, that wait isn't as bad. A couple minutes here and there adds up.
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Lets take these two imaginary necromancers I created. Both FD at 1hp and their charm pet is right on top of them. They want to regenerate to full so they have the HP to get up, ST, and recharm without getting fucked in the face. FakeNecro (Iksar) gets 14 HP a tick while feigned, while FakeErudNecro gets 5. FakeNecro has 1418 HP, meaning he needs 101.29 ticks (round up to 102 since you can't partial tick) to get to full. 102 x 6 seconds = 612 seconds, divided by 60 seconds in a minute = 10.2 Minutes. Now FakeErudNecro is at 1399 and gets back 5HP a tick. Or 279.8 (round up to 280 since you can't partial tick) total ticks to get to full. 280 x 6 seconds = 1680 divided by 60 seconds in a minute = 28 minutes. So the Iksar will be getting up nearly 18 minutes faster.
But I hear you say "But surely that never happens!"... but it does. How can we predict how often it happens? Do we make the faulty assumption that nothing bad will ever happen? Bad things do happen. Doesn't matter how good you are. You will fuck up. How do you weigh the relative value of getting back on your feet versus mana efficiency in a pure sitting situation? These are assumptions, and the more limited they are in simulations, the more external validity issues you have... The more the simulation doesn't represent the reality of the experience.
Just try it. Seriously. That's the one way to get a good feeling of all the different variables that need to be captured. I don't think I have ever met someone who has done both as I have, and came out of it thinking regeneration wasn't a massive boon. Just keep in mind: Experience penalties are temporary. Faction problems are a part of the necromancer experience, and they are temporary. Regeneration is forever.