[toolshed]

Deurbael thank you very much for responding. I know you have spoken before about the rules on P99 being convoluted for new players and hard to understand, and I think the camp handoff is a perfect example of this. Let me walk you through my interpretation (as a new player to this server) of the Play Nice policy and see how this fits with your description:

From here: http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=132299

You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it

(emphasis yours)

This makes sense to me - you can go vendor in the zone and sell while still holding a camp. However, I feel like if there is a queue of people, then this camp would be considered contested. It would make sense that people would need to 'maintain a presence at or very near the spawn in order to hold it' if there is a queue. In my mind, if someone is in another zone or camping another mob, they are not in the position to maintain a presence at or near the spawns - they are camping something else. Which goes into the next point:

It should also be noted that if you camp out or leave the zone, you have forfeited a camp. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding.

Leaving the camp is camping another mob. The player has chosen his camp and therefore has left his first camp. I don't see how anyone could lay claim to two separate camps at the same time. Which leads into my next point:

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

'Monopolizing most of the kills in an area' would be camping multiple mobs+PH at the same time. This is clearly not allowed in the play-nice policys but it happens continuously at the AC OOT camp. People want to queue for AC while killing Seafurys, and under any reading of the Play Nice policy I think that this is clear that this is not allowed.

Now let's go through your post:

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

I would call this anything but clear-cut. You do need to compile this info because the rules right now are very convoluted and contradict themselves in multiple spots. Let me show you:

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt.

Makes sense, but there is no mention of any type of multiple-camp rule. What if this person that is on this 'list' isn't even on for a majority of the time? What if they're not in the same zone? How does this constitute any type of 'camp' in the definition laid down in the Play Nice policy?

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change the list after telling you who is next. Something that on one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next on the list or if you can be next on the list. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be placed next on the list and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

What if I send a tell to the camp holder and he doesn't respond? And then when the AC spawns and it's next up, all of a sudden someone from another zone comes back? I'm low down on some magical 'list' (that doesn't really exist) and now I have to fight for a camp with people that 1) aren't even online and 2) not even in the zone? This is a perfect example of the convoluted rules that exist on P99 and that are simply impossible for a new player to understand. I read these forums and have read more than most new players about this stuff and I don't understand where all these new rules keep coming from.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The next person on the camp list had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob

Emphasis mine. In the bolded text, it seems like you would agree with me in that someone not physically at the camp should not be able to be next. I am very confused. If someone is bound next to the PH and goes off in some zone to XP, and then gates back, is that allowed? But then if that's a rule, you are preferentially allowing classes that gate an advantage over classes that cannot.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

In theory this would be nice but it happens all the time in OOT for the AC and obviously (as mentioned in this thread) happens for Tranix every day.

Yet another unwritten rule is this thing about handing it off to guild members and somehow being in a guild supersedes any type of queue or list that was made for that camp. Can you speak on this? Is this a rule? In theory the camp holder would have told the person who is asking to camp the mob next if they could be on this magical list, but what if this person doesn't respond(like most)? Please note that there is no mention of guilds in the Play Nice policy outside of "You may not operate a guild that habitually violates these rules" so I don't see how this can be a legitimate rule.

I think the rules should be more clear: if you leave a camps direct location, you lose your spot in line. This is clear, it makes sense, and it is not hard to understand.