[G13]

Originally Posted by Archalen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am pleasantly surprised; you responded very descriptively and non-defensively. Unfortunately, I don't think I have enough time to adequately discuss every point made here, but I will bring up some issues. I am trying to understand why "intelligent design" is a compelling explanatory theory. Firstly, if starting from scratch, I would have to tease out what is meaningful in your discussion. To do that, I would need technical notions defined with the context of your explanatory theory.

Thanks for the reply. You didn't come at with me with your first post claiming intellectual superiority because you believe in Evolution while at the same time calling everyone else stupid that doesn't. Appreciate it.

The Universe is actually finely tuned like a musical instrument at very specific frequencies. Scientists are now learning that this is not by accident. We're talking about the entire Universe, which in and of itself is a closed system. Everything within that closed system is governed by it's laws. Everything.

The laws that govern the Universe exist. They did not create themselves. By themselves they have no power to create life. They only explain how shit works. Not what built it. For example adding and subtracting doesn't magically put more money in your pocket. Action, desire, passion, love, hard work, ect. do. These are intangible things that cannot be measured by Science.

Just like the love of a parent for it's child is not something that can be measured by the laws that govern the universe. Our actions and choices we make in life come from somewhere within us spiritually. Intangible, but no less real. The law of gravity doesn't make you fall in love. Which is why in a spiritual sense when you examine the life, death and resurrection of Christ you start to understand God's Love for His Creation. What He was willing to go through for everyone out of Love. Self Sacrifice. That's the example given to all mankind.

Christ said it over and over again. You must be reborn in Spirit. Your body is carnal with desires of the flesh. Everyone is a miserable sinner and the wages of sin are death. Only through Christ can you learn to overcome it. Rise above it. He is the example. Love is what overcomes the Flesh. When you love Christ you understand The Father. When you understand Christ you love The Father. You choose to love The Father willingly, which is what He wants. You choose to overcome your sin and structure your life in obedience out of Love. Not fear of judgement. Once you accept Christ in your heart there is no more Fear.

If you would have told me I'd be typing that a few years ago I would have thought you were bonkers, but you haven't walked my path. Everyone has their own path. Everyone has different levels of evidence they require to have Faith which always leaves me scratching my head because Evolutionists scoff at Faith yet demand you accept their Theory as fact when it can't be tested or observed in the field (Macro Evolution/Darwinian Evolution/Origin of the Species) and the only creative/intelligent force they cite that drives it are Time and the Laws of the Universe which are just laws and measurements. So who is really demanding more Faith?

There are spiritual things that can't be measured or explained away by Materialism which is why He is hated so much. Christ represents accountability for the things you do in this world and it's understandable that a lot of people have a problem with that. I wrestled with my own sin for a looooong time (still do) and had to go through some gnarly shit, but i realize now I had to be broken down and built back up. It's still an ongoing process and it always will be for the rest of time upon Planet Earth. It's done out of Love. Not Judgement.

You can't haughtily expect this shit to just be handed to you. You have to learn humility, grace and forgiveness. Again, things that cannot be measured by Science, yet these actions still have much more influence on what shapes reality, the future and human action than the laws of the universe. I could get into dimensions at this point, but that is a whole nother can o worms.

For instance, you use the word "creative" a lot. It almost sounds like "creative," the way you use it in "creative force" and "creative mind," could fit a number of specific definitions. In context, it sounded like a mere complement (I use this technical notion "complement" the way statisticians use it) to "randomness" and "time." You also mentioned that love, consciousness, and moral absolutes belong to the subset of spiritual and creative forces, but you still didn't define exactly what they mean. So far, it's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I don't understand exactly what I'm trying to believe. If you are using "creative" merely as it is defined in a dictionary, we can discuss that, but I would like a specific definition.

Musical notes exist at specific frequencies. By themselves they don't create music. They are just frequencies. An intelligent and creative mind/force creates music. Intelligence to know the proper sequence and arrangement using mathematical calculations to place notes within polymetric time measurements and the creative force to project the feeling and emotion they want to convey. What the emotions the composer is feeling within themselves.

Depending upon what notes/tempo you use songs can be happy, sad, upbeat, fast, slow, ect. The odds a song could write itself meeting any of these requirements from absolutely nothing are zero. The most plausible explanation using probabilities should be enough evidence for the layman to know an intelligent and creative mind produced that music and there was deep emotional feelings like love that powered it.

This is why I gave the example previously. If you were fly to some planet and discover a complex language and code never before discovered would it be logical to conclude that

A) An intelligence created it?

B) It came about from Nothing?

DNA is the language of Life. It's in everything around us. In all of Creation. Time didn't write it. Time is just Time. It isn't intelligence. It isn't creative. It's just a measurement.

You don't need an explanation of the explanation of the explanation (infinity) to know there was an intelligence behind the design. The same can be said of your phone. Your car. Your house. Take the Iphone for instance. Was Steve Jobs an intelligent robot or did he have passion and love for his creation? He also needed Matter to put it all together. This is the major problem I have with Evolutionists. They provide false choices and a false premise for the creation of the Universe. It's either Science or God when in reality the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Newton himself was trying to understand God. Not disprove his existence.

Also, I take issue with your understanding of entropy. This is one word you have employed which has a very meaningful technical notion. However, you used the term incorrectly. This law of thermodynamics refers to a closed system, and the earth cannot be isolated as a closed system in this context. For instance, an explanatory theory such as evolution would not violate this law, since the burning of the sun's "fuel" would represent a far greater increase in entropy than the decrease signified by evolution.

I've already touched upon this within this very thread. The sun is extremely random and destructive. If you leave something unprotected out in the sun it actually increases entropy. Roofs on cars, houses. Skin wrinkles faster ect. If my use of entropy bothers you than just call it the Law of Increasing Randomness. Our galaxy also is a part of the universe and cannot escape it's laws on a technicality, especially in light of the fact that the 2nd law was tested and proven on our own planet, sun and all.

I will tell you that by employing the scientific method, we are necessarily dedicated to it's limitations. Namely, that we are merely organisms with a limited cognitive scope. However, this admission doesn't necessarily prove anything within intelligent design, and it doesn't disprove scientific theories, it is just an admission.

How can something that has been created ever truly know and understand the intelligence and creativity of what created it? I truly believe with the emergence of Information Theory, we are only beginning to scratch the surface. As we get deeper and deeper into cells and witness the absolutely incredible and breathtaking design and creativity, you really can only marvel at it's perfection. But then again, could you expect anything less?

I absolutely agree that people who believe in intelligent design can be reasonable and logical. Einstein had a loose notion of God, and it sounded a lot like intelligent design. It is worth noting though that his revolutionary papers in 1905 were all the culmination of a mastery of interplay between mathematical formalism and physical intuition (he referred to intuition basically as the result of previous intellectual learning and experiences), and that in fact his notion that "God does not play with dice" was a big factor in his decision to reject quantum mechanics and pursue a unified field theory until his dying day, which was a dead end road. I think that is very instructive.

Einstein actually used very strong words to denounce Atheists who tried to use him to disprove God. He made it very clear he was not an Atheist. Anyways, thanks for the discussion. I hope we can find some common ground. I gotz to go to workz.