[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the choice between: "Do I want to play a class that is powerful or sucks?"

But this is where we are inherently disagreeing. No class sucks in EQ as far as I am concerned. Some have more unique traits to make them more connected, others have less. But every class has a role, a unique role. Heck, I'm a Necromancer, and I like to think I kick ass at groups, but I fight against a legacy of a lot of bad necromancers.

I was in a group the other day. They decided to grab me in instead of a Rogue. When we got to a wipe, I managed to FD, get out, come back in, EE the cleric, and return the group. That's something a rogue would not have provided. Alternatively, with a rogue, they could have done more DPS than I could offer. Which is better?

So I don't agree that it is a choice between one being powerful, and one sucking. Tinker isn't going to make you a god. Being a shaman with Alchemy doesn't make you more powerful than another class. Being able to port doesn't make you powerful. All these things do is to give you utility.

Some people have more utility, others have less. And I already agreed that I am not opposed to giving more classes more unique abilities to help round it out so that everyone has unique traits that gives them something to offer others. The answer, though, is not to get rid of Alchemy, nor to make everyone have the same thing (everyone get an Alchemy, everyone get a Tinker, etc).

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Comparing to WoW interdependence: in WoW you are limited to only 2 TS professions - which means you will have to have obtain soem TS components from other crafters to do some of the better items. In EQ - you can do all of the TS at once, yet you can't do enchanting without enchanter - hows that for FAILED interdependence?

WoW isn't failed interdependence in that regard. First off, in WoW, only really 1 profession needs more professions than a player can have, and that is Engineering. Leveling the first 300 points of Engineering requires stuff from Tailors, Leatherworkers, Miners, Blacksmiths, and so on. So you do need to engage, and I applauded, and still do applaud Blizzard for designing a fantastic profession in Vanilla.

However, since my original post, you have continued to focus on Tradeskills, which are only one major part of the overall web of interdependence. For this one great thing that WoW does, it has since abandoned it. It has made it so that everyone can get a flying mount with ease. No one needs a port anywhere, because there are NPC ports. The Auction House will handle all your trades. You don't need to even talk to people to get into a group, or even a raid anymore. The social elements are all melted away because the cost of interdependence (occasional frustration at being unable to get what you rely on others for) was seen as something that pushes people away from the convenience that WoW offers.

In all these ways, WoW has failed to build a strong community. The strongest communities in that game are in guilds who need one another to complete advanced raiding content.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another problem with EQ1 interdependence balance, is when they give class great out of combat powers (teleports) and penalize them in their combat performance.

Yes I am talking about druids and wizards. So druids got ports, which is balanced of by sucky heals and sub par dps, which makes them neither a healer nor a caster. And outside of porting, wizard is just a gimped mage.

Just because they behave differently, doesn't mean they are penalized. A Wizard can port, and a Wizard can't do great sustained DPS. Sure. But who else can spam burst 2k blasts on a dragon in Velious? No one. Wizards have insane value beyond what a Mage has outside of porting.

A druid can't do very good DPS, but that's because it's a mix healer/DPS. It isn't because they can port.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point is: Combat power should not be balanced vs non combat powers.

And I think they should. If you're a rogue, you bring solid DPS. What else? About it. You can pick locks, sneak tag, and some other stuff, but you're mostly a DPS machine. Meanwhile, if you're a Wizard, you're a sick burst DPS with ports. If you're a Necromancer, you're a sustained DPS with the ability to sustain group mana.

Not everyone has to DPS to be valuable. Not everyone has to be equally able to do combat stuff, if they can make up for it in other ways. It doesn't matter how many rogues you have at your raid if you don't have ports to get there. You can have 4 rogues if you like to max DPS, but you're going to have issues finding a puller, handling large pulls, and so on.

Every class has their value, regardless of how they are weighted in combat. So when you say "You just can't make class that is good at nothing in combat", I disagree that this happens. Every class is good at something in combat. Druids can charm kill, they can group regrowth, they can buff, evac in case of emergency, place out some DoTs (which becomes more valuable in Velious). Just because not every class can do maximum DPS doesn't mean they are less powerful.

Regardless of if you agree to the balance of the interdependence (and again, I am not opposed to giving classes with less, more to make up for it), the positive, strong influence on a community of players due to interdependence is well known. Luclin and PoP killed it, and I'd like to see a Luclin and PoP without stones, without the bazaar, without the port up dudes, and so on. Just the new content, and keep the player base reliant upon each other as they are.

I think now I will conclude my part of this conversation by saying: I feel no shame in saying that I believe we must agree to disagree. We are arguing at the moment about opinions, not empirical fact. I think we both accept the same facts about the game and all, and we're just arguing about opinions as to how the game should be. Thanks for the talk.