[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not going to stomp on any toes, but if you could re-read your post, and then make it a little easier to read by only referencing each quote once I'd appreciate it. For someone in academia it was very hard for me to slog through a post where each point was hit twice with different information. In fact, I only read it once because even though you changed your points a bit in the second part, but I'll touch on the last paragraph you wrote because I can't really get my head around the last.

It was a copy paste error since I was on my university computer, and I fucked up with it. I adjusted it, and cut out everything that was duplicated, I believe. The first many responses were duplicated once, and then the actual conclusion was duplicated. This occurred because when splitting up your quote, I had to copy your Quote text, but toward the end, I had copy pasted the entire page to save it just in case it got eaten when I went to submit. When I decided to add one final note, it slipped my mind that I had saved it (after revision), and I pasted what I thought was the quote tag.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that ESO is actually a step backwards when it comes to quest design and exploration and I like it. It's not as open world as EverQuest, and I think that is partially because they probably couldn't justify that as good game design anymore. I love classic EverQuest, and part of it is the immersion and the fact that I rely on other people to do content. There's a bit of that in ESO, but it doesn't come close to EverQuest, and I understand your pain in this part. It also does not come close to an Elder Scrolls game, but because games like Skyrim are basically the exact definition of a theme park for one person, I don't think they could really do that.

But Skyrim isn't anywhere close to a themepark. A themepark game is one that holds your hand and guides you from each tourist attraction, lets you see it, and then you move on to the next location, consume the content there, and move on to the next, and so on. Skyrim is closer to a sandbox, but it isn't as free as a "sandbox" technically would be, so it is best as an open world RPG, in which you are constantly going back to the same places over and over, you're experiencing the world in many different ways. Just like in early MMO design, you go to the Oasis of Marr multiple times while leveling up, and you don't simply exhaust the location by "finishing" it.

But yes, we can both agree it is a step backwards in terms of quest design, but I think WoW was also a step backwards in terms of quest design. We've been walking backward since EverQuest gave us meaningful quests that have a real feeling of accomplishment.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll concede and say that the game is a lot like other MMO's in the way that it has some of the conveniences that others do. I will disagree however that the class system is a poor one, and that the 3 core abilities you get from your class will make that much of a difference when all is said and done when you build your character. Your playstyle will affect your class the most, and I don't feel that your beginning decision will make much of a difference.

Your play style is shaped by the gaming environment and style in which you're played. No matter what you do, the play style of a Warrior Tank will never be the same as the play style of a Paladin Tank in WoW. Even with allowing different armor types, weapon types (and lets just forget that dual wielding is just spam left click, rather than left/right click, another terrible backward step for TES), a necessary play style will emerge.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience with it, and I think that what I am saying is that people should give it more than two hours to see how deep it goes. I've never actually seen a game where there are crafting stations that you can discover by exploring non quest areas where you can craft specific set gear that has different abilities. I've honestly just never seen that. That doesn't mean it does not exist, but I've never seen it.

I played it for far more than two hours. I played an entire beta weekend, completing the first island entirely on each different class. I referenced to a quest I did in the first two hours, but I played far more than that. Since then, I've done a couple more beta weekends, but continued to do the fighter and sorcerer classes in those successive weekends. However, I have stopped.

WoW has a few instances of crafting stations that are in isolated areas, especially in Lich King for Death Knights and their Runeforging. SWG had some rather rare stations that you had to find to build stuff. I forget about Mandalorian Armor, but I think you had to use a crafting station down in Death Watch Bunker, which is in no way a main questing area/main exploration area.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm excited to explore and get abilities out in the world rather than just handed to me all at once via the Elder Scrolls model where you are instantly able to do whatever you want if you have an inclination, yet at the same time I'm happy that no matter what class I can be a bow wielding healer/support class if I want, even if they do things a little differently.

Yes, but your playstyle as a bow wielding healer/support class will be distinctly different for your class, and so if you want to change up how it goes, you must reroll your toon entirely, which subverts much of the community building that occurs when your name builds a reputation, which is a significant part of why good community develops. People didn't easily reroll alts in EverQuest from max level because of how damn long it took, and so name reputation mattered. SWG did it by giving you only one toon, and in both games, great community exists. Games since? Not that much.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically, what I am saying is I don't think you gave it enough of a chance, and I think there's a great game in there, it just takes some time to get past the starting areas. You're taking a first impression and blasting away at the game when you really have no idea what you're talking about and so many others are doing the same thing, and that is not something an academic would do in my opinion.

I think you took when I referred to a quest I did about two hours in, that I had played for only two hours. I am actually having difficulty finding where I wrote that part, as I am trying to make sure I worded it correctly. But I did not play for only two hours. I played significantly more, and hate the fact that I did, because nothing changed. At first, I thought, "Okay, starting area. I'll give it some time.", but it never improved. Let me know where I said it, and I'll make sure to adjust it. I couldn't find anything related to "Hour", "two", or "2" in my posts so far, all I did find was from my first response to Lune, which makes clear I have played a good bit.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, you have the spellcaster catch all, and the fighter catch all, the two that I played extensively over a number of different beta weekends.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is why I'm bothering to argue at all. Every comment here that has called the game shit has not taken enough time to play it. I also felt it was shit my first beta test, and then the next beta my girlfriend also got into it and it was suddenly a much better game playing with her. I had someone to adventure around with, and I saw more. We made an effort to get further into the game. The game does make a first bad impression though.

I'd dare to say that any MMO played with a close friend is made infinitely better, as it is the social relationship that is providing the quality of the experience, rather than the game itself. My buddy was working the entire weekend, so I was unable to play with him through it, so I judged the game solely by what it offered in terms of design as I have come to look and be critical of over 15 years of playing MMOs, rather than based on what I get out of social connections, which is something any MMO will provide.