Abacab on play nice policy
 

16:14 Abacab The reason why I started the whole griefing and training situation a few months back is there is just too much Gm intervention on gameplay

16:15 Abacab Any issue that arises can be solved by players cause they are just that player disputes, what I consider to be placed in the GM realm should just be exploits and gameplay issues

16:15 Abacab People arguing over camps, raid targets, and a bit of griefing can all be solved via the community

16:15 Abacab People that KS, that train, that dick over the server automatically get blacklisted by the community

16:16 Feiel And when players don't settle a dispute?

16:16 Abacab Everything is settled, even if comes to absolute destruction of this other player

16:17 Feiel Via trains, KS and other means?

16:17 Abacab It's not just a pvp mentality, it was real EQ live politics

16:17 Abacab very rarely did a GM come in to intervene on camp and raid disputes

16:18 Abacab That's why you could have a ninja looter on your server for months and nothing was done about it, because there was no need for a suspension as the player community blacklisted this player from guilds, groups and so on

16:20 Feiel While that is true, thus ninja looter still has the ability to cause havok on others in many other ways.

16:20 Abacab Like I was in hate with you, when IB and DA were arguing over the zone

16:20 Abacab and only reason you had to come mediate is because the staff enforces rules about the situation instead of a "first to engage" policy

16:21 Feiel Ultimatly in situations like that, whatever guild/players decide to be dicks more, come out on top.

16:21 Abacab Did you have to port DA out? Not really, cause they could've just cleared trash and what not, I mean both guilds are in fear every two days for draco and consistently clear trash, so I really didn't understand removing them from the zone

16:23 Abacab The rules as they are, are very murky cause even though they state exactly what is needed they are contentious by nature

16:24 Feiel I never had any hand in the rule creation, but you know that.

16:24 Abacab So you get to the point where guilds when they being to lose the encounter wipe themselves and claim that the other guild had a hand in it

16:24 Abacab I Transcendence sponsored that, and being in that guild I was highly against these rules just like those in other guilds

16:25 Feiel and on the other end... you get situations where players just wipe the other raid.

16:25 Abacab They're just intangible and constantly need amending to keep up to date with encounters

16:25 Abacab Currently there is no rules when sky comes out

16:25 Abacab or when kunark encounters are released

16:26 Abacab so that means they need to be backdrafted and updated which causes more confusion, and contention and guides and GM's will have to have a larger role in end game content

16:26 Abacab it's a lose/lose situation for both players and developers

16:27 Abacab Staff will have to spend more time solving broken rules and disputes and general whining, and players lose out because the rules are heavily enforced by staff that GM's consistently have to shadow guilds

16:27 Feiel personally, and actually most of the staff will say the same thing, the last thing we ever care to do is step into player situations. I would rather help people out with legit problems... got stuck in random parts of the world (happens very common in the old client)... have issues with creating guilds and all the lame stuff

16:28 Abacab I see the larger picture though

16:28 Abacab people think kunark will be a saving grace to end game content

16:29 Abacab You watch as OS keying mobs like foragers and hunters have to be enforced due to guilds perma-killing and deleting the amulets to systematically cock block the rivals out of content

16:30 Abacab With the current rules later on you're pretty much going to have to sit in entire zones and watch mobs 24/7

16:30 Abacab and that's gonna fucking suck

16:32 Feiel That really sounds no different right now than guilds just sitting in pohate/solb days on end :)

16:33 Feiel I personally don't understand it, but I know it happens.

16:35 Abacab Well the reason this happens it easy to understand

16:35 Abacab The staff and the server admins believe in community but lose sight of the fact that this is a video game, and video games by nature are ultra-competitive and that allows for people to be "dicks"

16:36 Abacab EQ is no different than Call of Duty or Halo, it's competitive and instead of PvP directly it's guild vs guild fighting over objectives

16:37 Abacab So when you enforce play nice policies that effect game play in such a way that it limits player action it causes too much intervention and ruins the competitiveness in the long run

16:38 Abacab So you get situations where people sit on zones 3 days straight because there are rules enforced that if one variable goes wrong a shit storm of /petition goes through arguing over those murky rules

16:38 Feiel Than why were PNP rules ever created? They were obviously never put in for the sake of fucking the game over.

16:38 Abacab What if one of our 15 dies? What if a faction war occurs? What if we get trained? Who gets this, who gets that?

16:38 Abacab It's so contentious

16:39 Abacab play nice policies are merely idealistic

16:39 Abacab It's just like the Geneva convention which is a IRL play nice policy

16:39 Abacab and if you know anything about human nature they find ways to exploit the current rules or simply go over the system

16:40 Abacab Idealism only works if the people playing are all on the same page and want the exact same thing and have zero competitiveness

16:40 Abacab the moment greed, desire, control, power and competition come in to play, the policies are essentially void and or skewed for benefit

16:40 Feiel Yup, people always will look for loopholes. Those situations always look great because the outcomes just sound wrong.

16:41 Abacab Which is why I argue against the rules in the long run they are not infallible and will cause much more issues than if they were totally non-existent

16:42 Abacab or at least keep the current rules to minimum courtesy

16:43 Abacab Such as no exploiting encounters

16:45 Feiel You can't ignore the potential for small groups of players have in destroying an entire community.

16:46 Abacab Wouldn't be an issue because those small groups of people would be branded

16:46 Abacab Why would my group consistently cause strife for the sake of it, if I know that the entire server would be on a witch hunt for me?

16:46 Feiel even a branded community can do its job.

16:47 Abacab but not as well

16:47 Abacab Because of my name alone, I can't get guilded as abacab

16:47 Abacab I can't even get a group

16:47 Abacab or a port cause I end up in toxxulia

16:48 Abacab which totally fucks me in several key components of the game

16:48 Abacab It means I can't xp in good groups, I can't tag along in a raid, and people will fuck me over because I've been known to troll

16:48 Feiel That was done with your own actions. TBH, I never knew Dukat was you untill much later in the evening.

16:49 Abacab Precisely my point, the players solved that issue on their own

tl;dr

Like The Art of War

Sun Tzu

Abacab, Publish a book

The art of Classic EQ

Tl;dr

Play nice policies do not work in ultra-competitive environments, and increased intervention by powers that be only leads to diminishing player control over encounters as they become highly over-regulated.

People are going to bend rules, go over the system or under the system at any opportunity and when it comes to situations that are ultra-competitive this behavior amplifies. It's best to let the competition go at each others throats and establish a pecking order over putting restraints that only provide a determent.

Rolling a wizard, LF five other wizards to roll with me.

I agree. Play nice only works when people aren't competing. If everything was instanced (like most modern mmorpgs) none of this would really be a problem.

EQ thrived because of community. The game world gave players power. If people were consistently dickheads they got blackballed. The players will find their own solution to problems without GM intervention.

My guess is if GMs didn't enforce any raid rules that in the short run guilds would probably train each other/cause havoc/people would die/blah blah blah. I think in the long run however guilds will form their own system (rotation was popular on live) and solve many of the problems that currently exist. We could go back to the classic "timed" spawns on raid mobs and things would flow smoother.

For instance, if rotation were used, if a guild defaulted on the agreement then the other guilds in the pact would cause havoc for that guild. Imagine if IB took DA's Cazic Thule spawn on the rotation. DA could talk to Divinity and Remedy and they could all train IB for the next few nights and not give up. It's "punishment" decided BY the players.

All these control mechanism will not work in the long run and only create more problems then they create.

Wow just wow, that whole conversation just shows the ignorance and stupidity that you hold in the warped little brain of yours.

Dunno what server people played on but on Tunare we had GM intervention fairly often when PNP was violated. Maybe not immediate but people were disciplined.

Yo I've seen Tunare, both Talisman and Northern Cross I believe routinely stacked Velious end game encounters with neut swords and MR gear....

Adding onto that, you sir are the ignorant one.. Let's keep adding more rules, more intervention as expansions progress as guilds run themselves ragged consistently camping mobs 3 days in advance. Let's keep adding more ever watchful GM's and Guides to the point that every mob from Yelinak to Venril Sathir has a GM perma-invis at the staging area.

The staff doesn't have the resources to watch 20+ encounters round the clock, and the players don't have the insight to dictate themselves accordingly, and like I said in the chat log play nice polices NEVER work in ultra-competitive environments if they did the U.N would be the most functional well established organization in the world.

IB was in hate 5 seconds after spawn..... And you love it!!!


Jesus christ you cry baby fucks on this server.

From what little I know about this crap. The GM made a call. live with it.