Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist (Post 3494474)

Unless you need CoTH, Shaman is objectively better. A Torpor Shaman is a really good way to reduce how much mana your Enchanters and Cleric are using. They Malo and Slow (so the Enchanters don't have to), Heal (so the Cleric doesn't always have to) and self-regenerate their own mana. Plus the buffs and heals help keep the party going. If you need a pet for tanking charm breaks, Shaman pet can tank just fine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY . They can DPS fine too if you are doing well with Epic DoT, Pox, Bane, JBB, etc.

But I agree if you do need CoTH, dropping the Shaman would probably be the right move, since Mage can take over the Malo duty.

Originally Posted by Crede (Post 3494496)

Shaman is a waste. All these things you speak of, the cleric/enchanter/mage can handle. The more the shaman does, the more mana the other classes will have just sitting there doing nothing with. Enchanter/cleric will have plenty of mana for slows/heals.

Mage can malo & do superior dps, and provide rods/coth when needed. Add in mage epic pet eventually, and it's gg.

Only situation where I like shaman more than mage is if you need to keep both torp/cheal goin to win...but I doubt that's the case for 99% of situations.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist (Post 3494499)

Having mana sitting is good when Charm can break at any time:) Your group is dead if you can't control the situation. Shaman gives you much better consistency, and you don't really lose DPS when compared to a Mage. Remember Shaman's have plenty of DoTs and two free damage clickies. This is at level 60.

Mage is only better before level 60 or if you need CoTH.

Originally Posted by Crede (Post 3494501)

That's what a beefy mage pet is for, to provide that security blanket if charm breaks.

I don't see shaman providing the same level of sustained dps at 60 when compared to a c2'd mage with their final water/epic pet.

But if you have some data I'd like to see it :D

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist (Post 3494502)

The Enchanters are providing the vast majority of the DPS via charmed pets. The Mage pet isn't doing that much hehe. Shamans can do fine DPS-wise.

Shaman pet has 2400 HP with FoS, and you can Torpor it. That is decently tanky. A Water pet only has 2500 HP hehe. It is providing security just fine, plus all the Shaman healing/slows/buffs.

I am not considering Epic Pets, because that is just really rare hehe. There are a LOT more Torpor Shamans than Epic Mages.

Originally Posted by Crede (Post 3494510)

I'm not denying shamans can do decent dps. But if it's substantially behind a mage providing DS/dots/nukes with a phinny staff water pet(since we're not assuming epics) then there's no point to having them really.

It's hard to know this though, we'd have to see what a shaman vs mage could sustain at 60.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist (Post 3494511)

Yeah I would love to see some mage DPS data. I could provide the Shaman DPS data.

Originally Posted by Danth (Post 3494509)

Sucks not having ports in a 4 man group but the best way to handle that is have your two most active players level up port alts.