Most good DKP systems also reset with tiers or expansions, so people can't bank and fuck over the people who spent their points to benefit the raid.

i often saw DKP divided by some amount at such times.

Merit is a lot more flexible. It's not just "I saved the most points and I'm the right class so I can get any loot I want." Merit allows you to reward loot to the specific players that benefit the guild as a whole. I've even seen players denied loot for passing on everything for months to try to get 1 super item. As long as you have competent leadership, one person or a council rewarding loot is always going to end up with a stronger raid force than any sort of point-based system.

Lol Irony at it's very best. You e-rage about my statement about justifying greed then continue to banter on justifying greed. Hmmm NBG being abused more then Greed? Not a snowballs chance in hell. Hey guys Spell: Sunstrike dropped......sorry wizzies we are greeding this. Sounds fair to me.

Can you imagine a raid letting a rogue roll on a 2 hander just for the sake of fairness? It makes no more sense to do this in a group setting.

I've never been in a group that was GBN unless everyone agreed about it. Same for NBG. If you're complaining that tells me you don't know how to be a leader and how to engage and manage a group. If you feel NBG is important than you must bring this up with your group. Quit the group if you feel you're not being listened to, but I've never met a group of people who couldn't compromise or listen. If you can't find a middle ground, it's equally your fault for not giving good impressions. Don't be afraid to draw a line - to set the rules. Confront it.

If someone is a **** and ninja loots it, then let everyone on the server know.

Sorry, this sounds to me like someone who didn't speak up or didn't communicate well and then was the unwilling victim of a greed loot. Then they yelled and screamed and came here. Like I said, and i'm honest about this, i've never been in a group that couldn't compromise or listen. Never. This person is probably partly to blame for their experience.

Communication is so important to prevent mishaps like this. People need to talk and not hold their feelings to themselves. A good group exchanges information and sets up the ground rules early.

Know what else? People expect rewards for playing. Of course they want an item for an upgrade or to sell it. That's how this game and others work. Greed is a natural element of gameplay. It helps to motivate us. It gets out of control when the rules are skewed or disorderly. Blaming greed is a scapegoat. Blame the lack of leadership. The lack of communication and rules that everyday people understand. That's the culprit.

try getting a cleric to join the fbss camp with no chance of winning one.. lol

Reiker, you can combine the best of what numbers offer with the advantages of human wisdom. What we did was kept track of attendance points, but the actual determination also accounted for other factors, like leadership, attitude, and so on. I think a combination is best. (Points are not the enemy.)

I was in a raid guild earlier this year on live and i was impressed how organized and professional they were about everything, including loot. It was eye opening for me. A few of the fights were probably the most wild and rewarding things i've EVER done in EQ. A lot of that is due to the devotion the guild had for the activities. It added meaning to what we were doing and we could trust it. It was a thrilling experience and taught me that raid guilds are probably, on average, the most coordinated and commited guilds in EQ. I had been a grouper for all my life before that point. I swear group guilds are great bunches of people who deserve a lot of respect, but I simply cannot compare the group guilds i've been in to the raid guild. Very little comparison. One was casual and friendly, but it didn't have the determination and professionalism that the other one had.

It didn't have a website, either. Lol. Or DKP. Or a really cool website feature where we could login and browse all of the raids and the attendees and the loots that were allotted. On and on.

I don't think people understand how much time it takes to build a loot system and to manage it. In the guild I was in, it was practically a part-time job. The people who did it hardly got a chance to play so they only did it periodically rather than long term. Kind of like shifts. Imagine if you sacrificed half of your time playing EQ to do guild activities instead? Would you do that? Somehow, people do. They do it for a lot of reasons.

It makes me feel sorry for the less organized, less able guilds, but ... to each his own. I mean, it's not like there's anything wrong with being a grouper or playing casually. It's a style of play. It deserves respect. Not everyone can devote enough time to play hard. Not everyone likes to play hard, even if they do have time for it. People are different and the game has a diverse array of content (thankfully).

wait, the raid guild didnt have website, or dkp?

You misread. The group-based guild didn't have a website or dkp or all of the other management matters that the raid guild attended to. It's like night and day. It worked to the raid guilds advantage.

And look, I'm not taking a shot at group guilds. I quit playing after 2 months because raiding was taxing my time, but I think people who play well and put in the extra effort deserve credit for it. That's all.

I do take the issue personally when someone thinks that raid guilds don't earn their weight. I saw it before my eyes how much effort they put into it and how organized they were. No one can take that experience away from me. No one can make me forget the win we had in the last raid before I left. Raid guilds will always gain my respect, but I've always been a grouper, and know where they're coming from. I respect them too.

So, according to your original post, 'greed' rolls that you're seeing in your groups are a horrible thing that are a blight upon the game, but to respond to critics you'll use what-ifs in raids that don't actually happen. Classy.

What piece of loot dropped that you thought you were entitled to that you didn't get? You sound like a butthurt warrior that didn't get his uB3r proccing weapon.