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-   -   A Question about the end of Class R Rotation (/forums/showthread.php?t=180109)

Kaera 02-03-2015 11:37 AM

Basically, after benefiting from the rotation and getting what they want which is limiting TMO, they kill it off to suit themselves.

Daldaen 02-03-2015 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenalpow (Post 1768376)
Sirken strongly recommending something for class R policy is wildly different than Sirken believing that you'd get a better pixel share as a guild in class C with repops or whatever terrible math he was using.

Eh, perhaps. Was just saying, electing to listen to him on a player-maintained and agreed upon rotation when he and others from the staff refuse to make an official rotation, seems nonsensical. If he doesn't feel strongly enough for the staff to take a position, why should his opinion on player rotations matter?

But regardless of whose idea the tiering system was. It was and is a dumb idea.

Remove Variance and add poopsocking limits.
Rotation gets one change: Guilds can no longer ally, but instead must choose to share a slot in a rotations for mobs which are too difficult for them to handle whenever it spawns.

For reference here is what I'm talking about. Between November and December these were the guilds who allied on mobs which they didn't share a rotation slot on:

Date Mob Rotation Cleared
11/02 Inny Omni Omni/AG
11/03 CT AZ Omni/AZ
12/10 Tal AG AG/Omni
12/12 Trak AG AG/AT
12/17 Inny Euro Omni/Europa
12/31 Trak Euro Omni/Europa

(I'm sure this isn't going to format well)

It's basically only occurring on Trak, Inny, CT and Talendor. These guilds would probably be better suited agreeing to share a rotation slot and be able to cover them whenever they spawn. For all the other mobs there wouldn't really be an impact.


Or we can change that any time you ally or are part of a kill, you are dropped to the bottom of the rotation list. Whatever you want to hash out.

Tiggles 02-03-2015 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaera (Post 1768413)
Basically, after benefiting from the rotation and getting what they want which is limiting TMO, they kill it off to suit themselves.

The guild responsible for this is BDA and Taken.

They will drive away server population worse than IB and TMO ever could because they work together to deny lower level guilds mobs whilst IB and TMO fought against each other.

If the staff does not bring BDA and Taken upto class C and prevent them from reforming using a loophole back to Class R. No other guild will ever see any content that is not shared between BDA and Taken.

If this continues you will see guilds fold and players quit in droves. The staff has to intervene.

That or abolish this silly Tier system all together. TMO AND IB will sit down and discuss ways for lower tier guilds to still see content.

Erati 02-03-2015 02:03 PM

not enough "listen brother"'s in Chest's responses to Dald

2/10

Juntsie 02-03-2015 02:14 PM

Juntsie tink dis entire dispute ridiculous joke and raider dat oppose equitable distrobution of merbs need to put down poopsock and learn to live.

Juntsie stand by long-time policy of GM-enforced equitable rotation for all guild wit ability to bash mob and no variance (wit plenty of time after pop for engage, so no stupid tracking or poopsock silliness).

Neckbeard psuedo-legal documents and backroom dealings NOT CLASSIC.

Fix server by: (1) impose equitable GM-enforced rotation between all raid guilds [fun from bashing mob should be more important dan stupid 15 year old pixels]; (2) make new blue server dat have no rotation requirement and bare minimum PnP to give true neckbeard option [no one will play on dis server, and it will die quickly, cuz no one truly enjoy stupid tings like poopsock and tracking]; (3) kill da variance, it only cause poopsock to become full; (4) release Velious; (5) wipe blue servers clean; (6) grant Juntsie honorary GM status and authorize him to solve raid dispute with swift, off-the-cuff, in game justice; (7) pay Juntsie reasoanble hourly rate for his dispute resolution GM services; and (8) write special rule that confirm no conflict of interest when GM Juntsie engages in intimate swampy encounters wit HOT FEMALES in various raid guilds dat he baby-sits.

DO THIS AND ALL WILL PROFIT. FAIL TO DO DIS AND ALL WILL BE LOST.

Hastley 02-03-2015 02:22 PM

30 year old men with no real lives debating 16 year old elf simulator. How do you virgins continue to have this many issues. This is everquest, not debate quest, kill the fucking mobs when they spawn or dont, if you cannot kill them , go play another game. Most of all though, get another hobby, spending 10 hours a day on this forum writing policies that dont matter and wont be enforced and dont matter cannot possibly of be a productive use of any of your times.

TLDR: GROW THE FUCK UP

eqnewb 02-03-2015 02:31 PM

I would really rather this not become a new RnF post. Please keep conversation civil, educated, and objective

eqnewb 02-03-2015 02:37 PM

First of all, thanks to Argh and Daldaen especially for their objective input.
Secondly, Rants and Flames post is just that, everyone pointing fingers and lobbying for their side, or someone poking fun at those who are getting so emotionally attached to the issue (I'm not judging, I've been in a similar situation in the past!).

So now, to just make some observations from somewhat who, as I like to repeat, has not participated in the raid/guild scene on this server and is only now starting to figure out where I want to go. I do not make any harsh judgments, because everyone has their own style by which they want to play the game, and everyone, no matter how hardcore or casual, wants to be able to get level 60, do their epic, kill dragons, and above all else, have fun. Isn't that the whole point of us playing this 15 year old game? To relive the great memories of being chased down by polar bears and camping elite gnolls, to fighting giants and frogloks and vampires, to gathering an army to take down a dragon!
Observation 1: There is clearly a gap between guilds in class R. There seems to be the "big 3" as many people have mentioned, a middle tier of guilds who are quite capable in their own right but perhaps are not as powerful in their own right, the "middle tier" we can call them, and then the bottom tier, which seems to be the more casual guilds and/or the new guilds trying to break into class R. This of course completely ignores the fact that class C is an entire tier above all of these, as they are the "competitive" raiders as the GMs/servers like to call it.
Comments: I know from my experiences in raiding that this type of divide is always going to happen naturally. You are going to have your high end hardcores that the majority of the server hates and claims they have no life and just poop sock for days and ruin the fun for everybody. You have the 2nd tier hardcores who in all reality are just as devoted to the game as the 1st tier hardcores if but only they had more time to play, but real life takes up more of their time. Then you have the "casual" hardcores, people who call themselves casuals but in reality, they spend too much time in Norrath to be a simple casual player. And you could continue breaking these tiers further and further down to each individual player, as everyone has their own ideal way to play the game, whether that be to be the best player on the server, have the best gear, compete with other guilds, or simply relive old dungeons, kill a dragon, and socialize with other people who share an interest in Norrath!
Observation 2: Ending the rotation seems to be a very unpopular decision. The top 3 guilds claim that they are tired of sharing rotation slots with the lower tier (in all honesty, I would say it's just the bottom tier of class R, the middle class R guilds I doubt they have a problem with) of class R and would rather just FFA the loots, as they have the advantage when it comes to class R mobs (naturally, they are the more powerful guilds). The middle tier seems to be very accusing and pointing fingers at those 3, with trying to cite different situations when they could not compromise or whatever else. Finger pointing back and forth ensues, and thus you have our 75 page long rants and flames post (of which I'm only on page 20something, but you can only listen to politicians in the making rant for so long). The bottom tier of class R clearly is unhappy with this decision because it effectively prevents them from getting a shot at a lot of targets they would have otherwise got to attempt under the old system.
Comments: What are the pros/cons with this situation? If class R mobs go to FFA, I would think it would make for a healthier type of competition on mobs. First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs. Also, because of the class R restrictions on mobs, the "big 3" would still be restricted from claiming every mob all the time. And I do not believe the middle tier would be unable to compete; quite the opposite really. If we think about the outcomes, say the "big 3" win 60% of the loot and the rest of class R win 40%, the "big 3" are naturally larger guilds, and thus have to split the gear amongst a larger player base, while some of the middle tier guilds tend to be smaller, with a lower player base to split gear amongst. (perhaps not entirely accurate, but generally speaking I would expect this to be true). Continuing along this line of thinking, if middle to bottom tier guilds are having trouble competing for mobs, they could team up to contest larger dragons and/or compete with the "big 3" on things. From what I have gathered, this was already occuring under the old system, only it was on their rotation slot, rather than in a FFA situation.
Obviously, FFA comes with its own drawbacks. First and foremost, the bottom tier guilds, even if they tried to form alliances, would have significant problems competing with the larger and more experienced guilds. Secondly, as we have seen with class C, lines are quickly drawn in the sand and people who once worked together would quickly become blood enemies, which quickly leaks into the general population of guilds and hatred ensues. I have already experienced guilds showing their unappreciation towards others guilds in situations where perhaps someone was accidentally trained, or they pulled a mob from someone's camp. Rather than react in a civil manner, people tend to assume the worst in these situations. This kind of divide is already starting as we have seen in RnF, guild leaders/officers are already voicing their disapproval of one another.
Observation 3: The dissolving of the rotation is a loot, or pixel as many people tend to term it around these parts, driven move. No matter how the "big 3" guilds want to sugar coat it, they are unhappy about losing loots to lower tier guilds, and believe a FFA situation would allow the situation to normalize in their favor.
Comments: What is wrong with this? Why are they so against admitting to such desires? I have a theory: They are trying to not become what they claim to despise, the hardcores, the class Cs! Making a political move to benefit themselves and bring more loots to their guild is indeed a selfish move, but what is wrong with an officer core pushing to bring the best for their own members? Is that not what they are supposed to do? If they are acting in what they believe is in the best interest of their respective guilds, then by all means, more power to them. Obviously it is an unpopular decision, but is that not how the world typically works? Tier levels of raiders at work here, I say.
In rebuttal, the mid tier R guilds can still compete. They can still fight, and with much more motivation, I would imagine, as they are trying to prove they can still compete with the "big 3". I would imagine this could develop into some healthy competition amongst guilds, if handled appropriately. Of course, it could always go horribly wrong and end with guilds training one another and suspensions being levied to everyone.
Observation 4: The "big 3" are afraid of Class C. Perhaps not without good reason. Their officers understand they cannot realistically compete with TMO/IB on a regular basis to earn enough loots for their respective guilds. Again, they are operating to achieve the highest possible loot numbers for their members, as that is what it always boils down to in this and most every PVE MMO: loots. What other tangible currency is there in EQ? Earning loot is the only way to achieve both wealth as a guild, and to reward its players for loyalty. I feel like I am talking about medieval Europe, when the lords would give loyalty to their kings in return for land and riches.
Comments: I do not have a realistic solution to this situation. I'm not sure there is one. It is the curse of the 2nd tier raiders. They will continue to bully class R, or they will move to Class C and go from the bullies to the little kids being picked on. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that is the situation and the line they are trying to stay so close to but not cross.

What is there as a reasonable conclusion to all of this? Ending the R rotation may not be all bad, though it could have some long-term side effects unforseen atm. There definitely is a disparity between guilds in class R, but perhaps an even larger one between those and that of class C. Perhaps FFA would cause a shift in power, and perhaps not. I find it a very interesting topic to learn more about, as the politics in MMOs have always interested me. Everyone has their own side, and what they want is right and what someone else wants is wrong. Cooperation can be difficult in those situations, and I do not have an answer. I am not sure anyone does, and so perhaps FFA is inevitable.
I want to reiterate that I do not know anyone here personally and I do not know the situations 100% completely. There are 2 sides to every story and then the truth. If I misspoke about a situation, please continue to fill me in, as again I find the political intricacies quite fascinating. If some grammar/spelling is messed up, I apologize for that, but I'm not an English major =P

eqnewb 02-03-2015 02:40 PM

P.S. I love Juntsie's sig

Man0warr 02-03-2015 02:40 PM

Quote:

If the staff does not bring BDA and Taken upto class C and prevent them from reforming using a loophole back to Class R. No other guild will ever see any content that is not shared between BDA and Taken.
It's impossible in Class R for 2 guilds to take every mob - the lockouts prevent it.

Quote:

That or abolish this silly Tier system all together. TMO AND IB will sit down and discuss ways for lower tier guilds to still see content.
No you won't, you had that chance already for years and forced Rogean to get involved.


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