This argument will go on forever. As was stated you cannot prove whether or not there is a God. It comes down to faith. I know most people when they think of faith they link it to a religion. But faith is believing in what you cannot see. I myself have faith in Jesus/God. I see the beauty of this world, the miracles that happen, how everything in this world serves a small purpose, even dung beetles/worms. This is my right. You people who believe there is no God and believe in science, there is no proof as was stated. This belief in science comes down to a faith that there is no God. You live your life with the faith that you have nobody to answer to when you die. That is your right and your choice. I am not telling you that you are wrong we all have free will. What i will do is talk to you if you have any questions about God. I will try to convince you and pray for you. But the end decision comes down to you. I don't hate you, I have been taught not to hate. You have different opinions of the world than I do. God made us as free thinkers and I tend to believe that hurts us sometimes more than it helps. As i said though it comes down to faith. No matter how much we discover as a human race there will always be more to discover. EX. where did god come from, and the big bang theory for science. What caused this big bang theory, how did all this stuff come out of nothing? What is to say that the big bang theory was not God creating the world. I will uphold my faith and you will uphold yours. In the end if i was wrong I wont care, but as was stated earlier if you were wrong then you will care. I have a college degree in history/sociology and went to a liberal arts college so I have read many different views this is the view i believe in. Its my right to, and you have a right to believe in yours. And as far as if my grammar is ok I could care a less i am posting on an internet message board, not a formal letter to somebody important.

I don't want to get into a huge ordeal because i could write a novel to explain my side of things and give examples of things to show you some different ways to think given your already stated opinions of your side, but I am aware minds/thoughts won't be changed. However, I will type out some things that came to mind browsing this particular thread just because. I won't take umbrage to the fact i've been called an idiot because as far as I am concerned from a few of the thread creators posts he uses stereotypes and a form of generalization towards a mass variety of people who can and do think differently therefore showing idiocy at its maximum himself. There is no one set way people have a relationship with another person, so therefore in the Christian aspect a person's relationship and experiences with Christ and the Bible will vary depending on who you talk to. So to say all Christians this or all Christians that is quite frankly just wrong.

I want to bring up a few key points that i doubt have been brought up, but that i figure can relate to everyone who is on these particular forums and they are these...

1. What is it you see EverQuest as? (Do you see it as a game, how would you explain this game?)

[My basic thoughts: This is indeed a game that is based on a digital living and breathing world where there are time lapses and events within them, pretty much a fantasy reality. This game brings in variations of fantasy and imagination into play that help serve the realities of purpose, progression, power, and diversity.]

2. With that being sad how is it that this "world" of EverQuest came to be? Did it come out of nowhere because of a few glitches within some computer network one day? Did it evolve out of a culmination of past games to grow into what it is today? Or was it just simply CREATED in order to come into existence and function?

[My basic thoughts: All of you know that it took the minds and skills of individuals to bring this game to life and populate it with NPC's, ways of gameplay, race/class dynamics, mobs, spawn timers, night and day cycles, etc. all different forms of programming. As Rogean and Nilbog can attest to there is indeed creation involved and a translation piece that of course translates the science of programming into the visual and graphical experience we then play on, which is also created... none of this just evolved or happened on its own.]

3. That brings me to this, if you can grasp the reality of a computer game needing to be created... why is it such of a stretch to grasp the reality of others believing and knowing that there is a divine creator? If something as simplistic as a pencil has to be created in order to then be used as the simplistic tool it is intended to be. Why is it that you think it is out of question for things as complex as the human body, solar system, and universe to then themselves have a creator? After all didn't each and every person reading/typing into this thread themselves have to be created by the reproduction process in order to even be living in the first place, because last time i checked we didn't just "appear".

4. I see how some have said they enjoy life and appreciate "freedom". Well what if you were in a third world country that didn't allow you such a lifestyle or any freedom at all how would that make you feel? The way those countries are being run there obviously are choices and look at how the country of America had it's choice to become free and resonate its system. Now what if there were a world where everyone and everything was the same, you didn't have any choice what so ever? Not many people can fathom how boring or even bland that may be. Again imagine EverQuest with only 1 race, 1 class, and 1 zone... how garbage would that be? The creator wouldn't have had much ambition nor would it be much worth to even populate. The EverQuest we know wouldn't make much sense if it wasn't populated considering there wouldn't be anything to offer us the players if the creator hadn't populated it. The earth was populated and as you all know Humans are the superior and dominant species. Now imagine if we didn't create our characters and execute our own experiences in-game to make it unique. How dull would it then be to the one that created it or is experiencing it? The game developers gave us choices and the way we go about leveling and progressing our character is up to us. So to answer one of the appeals Chtulu had, how does it not make sense that God would want to populate a creation of his (In this case Earth) and give his other creation (us) a life in order to choose and experience things uniquely instead of forcing an assembly line type form of repetition that wouldn't produce much of anything. There is good and evil in this world, which is another form of free will of action. What is it that you think drives those forces of good/evil beyond just one single person? You can't blame everything on one thing in life, so goes the same in this case. You have to acknowledge there is a Devil as well because that is what Christians believe, so to ignore that aspect and explanation of evil won't serve your argument too well.

5. Another little side note, what year did you celebrate it becoming a few weeks ago... cause i believe there were tons of people celebrating 2011 no matter what their background belief system was. Considering you allow yourself to believe/know the fact that EQ has a different time cycle than what our real lives have, you lack in your argument with your generalizations of what Christians believe based on how the Bible explains time differences between Spiritual and flesh. So like EQ, which is a digital game is different from our flesh and blood time.... the time of God aka a Spirit is different than us who is flesh and blood. If you can grasp the one, i don't see how you can argue the other. So i think Chtulu that you need to learn up a little more in certain areas before you totally criticize something if you don't indeed know how exactly it is applied, in this case i just used the "time" example.


The Bible has yet to be proven wrong where as last time i checked Science has been proven wrong time and time again. Science hasn't even distinguished the absolute reason why us Humans are indeed the superior species and what makes us different, it is quite simply explained in the Bible though. What other people don't understand either is Faith is a built in Human utility, just how you go about investing in it is different. Many people do it unknowingly and try to knowingly reject it while others grasp it and acknowledge it. You can't tell me every person whether proclaimed Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion doesn't have faith. The last time i checked none of us knowingly tell ourselves to step, step, step when we walk or tell our brain to send off electrical signals in order for our eyes to work, fingers to move, heart to pump or lungs to breathe. You wonder how that relates to faith? Well when you go to sleep do you not have "faith" that your body will continue to function in order for you to live through the night and wake up the next day? Whether you know it or not you do or else you wouldn't fall asleep. You have faith in your body to operate correctly, everyone does... so to bash faith of any other kind is kind of hypocritical and absurd considering it is their individual right and a simple utility they are created with.

Forgive me for not reading every post that has went on or being professionally organized with my post, but i just felt obligated to write on a few points that i felt were of relevance. I hope the way i injected some of my correlations, that they were simplistic enough for you to understand and grasp.

As mentioned by Waldo, everyone has their own right and free will... frankly that is what was intended hence the involvement of "creativity" and "uniqueness" no matter what it is you are talking about. I don't hate anyone nor think ill of anyone who has differing beliefs or understandings based upon their own experiences. However, I do feel that respect does need to be introduced because of how different everyone is in general. I doubt anyone in here including myself is going to totally change someone's life outlook with a single post, but discussion is allowed considering this is a "forum" and that is just the way it is so try not to get all bent out of shape and criticize/belittle other people because i doubt that is how you yourselves want to be treated yourself.

Sorry for this being so long, as i said i could go on for a long time if i wanted to... i tried to be as brief as possible so i may not have made some things fully clear. This will be my only post so if you wish to continue with me personally on any of the subject matter you can PM me questions or your own intellectual arguments with certain viewpoints are welcomed, just know you aren't going to alter my beliefs because i've experienced to much to know what I stand behind is truth. If you have blatant insults or hatred you want to say or send, don't waste your time because it will be ignored... i won't be back in this thread nor respond to the PM. God Bless!

I did not read that

Holy fucking troll success. You're ALL idiots.

Nah, just the ones who STILL believe in God, even after my compelling arguments of reason.

Fail.

lol, you heard it here first folks. god disproved on everquest emulation forum. news at 10!

yaaaflow said : "Well equiped twink tanks stuff within 3 levels of himself news at 11"

Lame.

Great evidence.

Compelling arguments of reason, you must be joking? A few links to Richard Dawkins garbage is hardly a compelling argument. Dawkins is indeed a smart and effective scientist, but his philosophy is terrible and he is in fact a laughing matter for most serious philosophers in academia.

Poster whose name starts with a D here actually did a pretty decent job of laying things out for you, but you just blew right by the important points and tried to flame back instead of responding carefully. You can't even stay on track in your own thread.

So check it out, heres some logical thought on the God matter, pretty much the stuff you can learn at a junior college. We exist, and we depend on contingent things in order to exist. My existence depends on my parents whose existence depends on,,back,,back we go to the starting point. All these contingent events seem to trace back, but endlessly and that is unsettling. If you believe as I do in the principle of sufficient reason (there is an explanation for everything basically) then you need to explain this contingent chain of events which is your existence. A contingent thing can never be the starting point. The only way to break this chain is to posit a necessary being, call it God, but this God hardly commits me to anything terrible Christians have done in the last 2000 years. Anyway, this is known as the cosmological argument and of course it is hardly airtight and has created a pretty interesting debate. Many brilliant people accepting this argument, others rejecting it.

Point is..belief in God is not fanatical or illogical. As you have already been told in this thread but failed to digest--people are illogical. Events such as the inquisition reflect how terrible humans can be, it has no bearing on the metaphysical objective truth of gods existence or non-existence.

If your beef is with Churches being abusive or intermingling with our government that is a legitimate gripe, but you arn't talking Philosophy now, just saying you don't like corruption.

Sit on a forum and regurgitate bullshit you youtubed from Richard Dawkins, a good scientist turned bad philosopher and claim all theists to be idiots while not offering any premised arguments is absurd. Atheists seem to think they are free from the burden of proof, but that just isn't so. If you make a positive empirical claim, then claim to have logic on your side, it is on you to show that--otherwise become agnostic and stop looking like a moron.