Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus (Post 1108511)

Rotations tend to break in practice because it removes the impetus for smaller guilds to merge and ally. It inevitably leads to bloat. (Semi)random server resets are far more efficacious than any proposed rotation or similar scheme. It simultaneously enables lesser guilds to fairly compete on a more even playing field, and it still allows power guilds to fairly compete on a playing field where their advantages are still useful, but not overwhelming to the lessers.



As Loraen recently said, in matters like this the issue is with the rules and their implementation and not the players. Playing within the rules to your utmost is never unjustifiable. Cold and unsocial perhaps, but no moral or ethical culpability lies on those who stay within the bounds of the established order. The endgame environment stems mostly from the rules as they are.

Originally Posted by Quientus (Post 1108640)

I may be playing "The Devils Advocate" here ...(?)

But (!), seems to me that TMO really isn't doing anything than what other Top guilds on practically every (live) server, didn't do ...

I played in the top raid guild on three different servers on live, and none of those servers had a raid system anything like we have on p1999. I think most of the individuals making these claims do not in all honesty, have enough experience over hardcore raiding on multiple servers on live to actually know any facts besides what they think is probably most accurate.

Live mind you, was NOTHING like p1999 for a whole lot of reasons. One major reason isn't even p1999's fault--the reason that nobody knew what they were doing those first few years.

As pointed out it requires dedication and willingness (and opportunity to be able to commit) time if you want to "Stay on Top" ...

Not arguing with you here.

I know alot (of those not sitting on or near "the top") keep saying it isn't about being "uber" but rather they want things to be fair ...

But if you are not playing and dedicating time to become "Upper Echelon", then what is the problem ??? If you are "only" playing for "fun", then the release of Velious will remedy alot ...

That's a bold statement to make. If you want to make assumptions, fine, but you're saying, "I KNOW a lot...".

For me personally, while I won't detail all my characters, I'll say I have multiple 60's with multiple epics that have been in more than one of the top raid guilds on this server at one time or another on various characters, and have at multiple points, controlled one of the top equipped characters of my class during various stages of the server's progression. To say that I'm unhappy with raiding right now because I'm not "working" hard enough, or because I want more "phat lewts", I just can't say is an adequate or appropriate analogy.

Another solution would or could be a "Coalition" of guilds working together and give TMO a "Run for their Money"; On E'Ci there was a Coalition of 4 guilds that was known as M illion M an M arch - MMM) ...

Granted, but I'm not so much worried about if TMO gets more loot or if any other guild gets more loot. My issue again is mostly that raiding isn't very much fun these days. I had more fun back in the earlier days when we were clearing hate and fear with level 50's and every single raid wasn't just a poop-sock where we sat on vent and didn't play, or played some alt we didn't really feel like playing over a main that we had camped.

Also therein lies my own current problem; I recently created a toon here, because even though I stopped playing EQ in 2007 (after TBS and before SoF), I still miss EQ, and no other MMO has EVER appealed to me like EQ did and does ...

However, I know myself well enough to realize that I will not be able to play "Just casual" ..., I was a "hardcore" raider, when I was active, and even though I worked 50+ hours a week, if I play, I play to win, which is why I'm still hesitant to start playing again ..., because I don't "just want to play for "fun" ", but I'm not sure I can commit the time required ...

I hate to say it because I mean no ill will toward any guild, but again being that TMO has the resources, if you get into TMO and just sock, you'll get fully geared in no time. They'll carry you and you almost don't need to do anything for it but be willing to sock.

Long story short; Maybe the 2nd tier guilds on P1999 should start to cooperate more instead of "whining", because as someone else pointed out earlier, I doubt TMO can be everywhere all the Time ...

I've not even stated if I still have a character in TMO yet or not. I will flat out state that I have at least once had a character (I have many high-level characters) in TMO. This thread isn't about whining about TMO. These discussions bashing TMO are more or less completely off-topic.

Plus, on another note, TMO can be everywhere at the same time. They can (and so can a few other guilds), because of socking. Because on average, you often never have more than 2-3 mobs in window, and TMO sports enough members with enough 60 alts where they can typically have 30+ characters logged out within FEET of the spawn spot of a given raid mob.

Just a few thoughts,

Originally Posted by Morgander (Post 1108650)

I must, for the sake of the idea, protest your second statement.

Playing within the rules is not 'never' unjustifiable. Not all rules are justifiable. Some rules are created with two potential intents that could lead to unjustifiability: One: rules created in ignorance or incompetence. Two: rules created for nefarious or selfish purpose.

Originally Posted by Morgander

I'm looking to spark discussion to make change. There are a myriad of ways to go about making raiding here more fun. I very much like the examples I gave in a prior post regarding sharing content and having races to beat times for double loot potential.

Originally Posted by W8Gamer (Post 1108567)

The problem with the view here is you're taking "doing whatever it takes to win" and associating it with negative and immoral actions when that isn't always the case. There are rules in place to keep the playing field fair. If players operate within those rules, what makes it unjustifiable, immoral, or greedy?

Originally Posted by burkemi5 (Post 1108692)

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

Originally Posted by Morgander (Post 1105172)

If you're reading this, my guess is that the title of this thread had captured your attention.

Now I've played on P1999 for several years now, on multiple characters in multiple guilds. Each one has been a raiding guild. I've dabbled with guilds such as Dark Ascension and The Mystical Order, just to name a few, and every guild I've been apart of has been first and foremost, a raiding guild.

Through these experiences I've come to notice that the way you're forced to go about raiding on P1999, well, it just isn't very much fun.

It's not very much fun because there's such thing here as fair competition. Imagine if you would, a game of chess where black has the official starting pieces: 1 king, 1 queen, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, and 8 pawns.

Now imagine you're black, and you're playing the game against white, who's starting pieces are: 1 king, 7 queens, and 8 pawns.

Just doesn't sound like equality.

Sure, if you've two basketball teams on the court, one's bound to have superior players, better strategies, harder training regiments, etc., but they're both going to sport 5 players, and each side of the court's got the same measurements, and both teams still abide by all the same rules and undergo the same penalties.

What I'm getting at here is to reinforce the idea that this whole "competitive" aspect of P1999 raiding is an illusion. From my experience, there seems to be a clear outcry to continue to focus on this same-old competitive aspect of raiding from the more efficient raid guilds. And why not? This is of course directly in their best interests. Why share when you can take more than the other guy?

There seems to be a second group of raiders who feel so vehemently toward a given guild(s), that the mere idea of not having the opportunity to take something from these most hated groups, simply boils them up from the very soul outward.

And that's about it. You've got the group who wants nothing to change because they're already getting theirs, and you have the group who may or may not be getting much, but what they're getting keeps them in favor of this same competitive system because when they do get some, they relish in the idea of imaginary bragging rights against the group(s) they hate so avidly.

If you don't believe me you can just run a quick scan across the forums at the myriad of flames from guild to guild. You've got people from TMO blatantly bashing other guilds, calling them names, ridiculing them, and frankly, being very unsportsmanlike for a very competitive, sport-like endeavor. It's not TMO I'm talking about though, nor are they the focus nor major culprit of this topic. It's all the guilds. You've got guilds hating one another, telling lies about each others members, blowing up in public channels, across voice software, all over the forums... The list continues.

So what's the damned point? Well, the point is, why are we still accepting this archaic outlook on this server? How is it fun to log out next to a raid target, leave your guilds common voice-chat program open, awaiting the call, only to log on, play the game for a grand total of maybe 5-15 minutes, then move your character(s) to another target or targets, then rinse and repeat the process?

Whatever happened to actually logging in and playing the game? When did Everquest raiding mean you've got to have multiple max level characters just to stay logged in?

It's not just about who gets the most or who gets the least. It's a culmination of principles and what's most positive for the community.

I for one would implore the server administrators to take another look at the state of affairs on this server regarding raiding. We can do better than this. We can do better than forcing the staff to come up with a slew of seriously ridiculous, arbitrary rulesets to safeguard an illusionary form of competition between a select few guilds and a large minority of the playerbase.

Everquest wasn't like this. Not on any server I'd played on, nor the server in which I was a guide.

I for one hear more disdain, irritation, and sheer flagrant hatred come from the current system than I do positives on how things are running.

Do we want better? Do the players on this server deserve better? Can't we do better than this?

I think we can.

Originally Posted by W8Gamer (Post 1108567)

The problem with the view here is you're taking "doing whatever it takes to win" and associating it with negative and immoral actions when that isn't always the case. There are rules in place to keep the playing field fair. If players operate within those rules, what makes it unjustifiable, immoral, or greedy?

Would you call the Olympian that works out for an hour more than the rest of the competition every day greedy or immoral? Of course not. You would commend him for his dedication and hard work in order to win the competition. He went the extra mile. He did what all those other Olympians weren't willing to do by sticking it out in the gym for that extra hour each day despite how tired he was.

One could argue that's what TMO or any top guild is doing. They are going that extra mile to achieve their goal. To beat their competition. They are willing to sit and track that spawn those 8 hours that none of the other guilds are. They are willing to sacrifice hours of play to have their character parked in the most strategical location to kill their target. What's immoral or greedy about that? They aren't violating any rules just like that Olympian who isn't violating any rules by working out an extra hour every day.

Not everyone gets the gold medal at the Olympics and I've never heard anyone call the winner a greedy, immoral person for all the sacrifices he makes in order to deprive the competition of that gold medal. You could argue it's the same for raid loot. Not everyone gets to have raid loot. So, why now all of sudden are those who make sacrifices to get the kill considered greedy and immoral? As long as they are operating within the rules, where is the injustice?

Originally Posted by burkemi5 (Post 1108692)

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.