I think you're right. Therefore, I won't respond. As I said in the post, if you can't see it, then there is no getting through to you.

Ok, now if this is true (and I have no idea if it is. I wasn't around for all this stuff), then it sounds to me that you all's problem isn't with the rules, but the referees (or the one referee, Amelinda).

My argument still stands in that the rules apply to everyone equally. Just as TMO can train you in VP, you are free to train TMO. I don't understand how anyone sees that as unfair? I hear you saying that what happened in the past was unfair, and if that's how it went down, then I don't disagree. However, what does what happened then have to do with the rule of training now? Did FE beat TMO out on a VP dragon or not? If they did, then that is proof alone that the system does not solely favor TMO. That TMO can in fact be beat at their own game.

So, what's the problem then? The problem isn't the rules. Just read through every thread about this and the problem is easy to identify. Allow me to point it out to you as I've read it over and over and over. Majority of people don't want to camp out at targets. Majority of people don't want to devote their EQ time to getting to a raid target first. A lot of people find that aspect not fun and not enjoyable. Well I have some unfortunate news, not everyone feels that way. Some folks enjoy camping out a target to make sure they get the first kill. There also those that maybe don't find it enjoyable but are so dedicated to getting that kill will do it anyway. That's what it takes. It takes that level of dedication and desire. I just don't see this magical rule change that is going to stop the guild with the most dedication and desire to achieve their goals.

They will find a way because that's what they do. They'll split raid forces, poop-sock, and whatever else is needed to get that kill. And so long as everyone else isn't prepared to go the lengths TMO is, you'll always be behind. Either way it goes, you are going to have to play the game as good if not better than TMO. Otherwise, TMO will stay on top, or whoever the top guild is for that matter. And that's exactly how it was on live. The guild with the most dedication stayed on top. So, the problem isn't the rules. The rules apply to TMO just like everyone else (and if they don't, a rule change isn't going to fix it because the problem is with the refs). So, the problem is lack of desire/dedication by the competition.

Now, que the people to enter the thread and talk about in order to be that dedicated to a 13 year old elf simulator, you have to be a fat, basement dwelling, slob with no life and no achievements lol. Love those posts as they very rarely apply to those in the raid scene.

The closest thing you'll get to a rotation here is to join TMO and stand in line for your loot.

I do remember a time, when TMO was raid suspended and the rest of the server rotated all of the mobs for a couple of weeks, with open invite VP raids. I did not hear anyone complaining that they weren't getting enough then.

Good reasons to consider rolling on teams PVP in this thread.

come to red where pvp is a one guild choice

Well we have:

Raid Mob Respawn Average
-------- ------- -------
Lord Nagafen 5-9 days 7 days
Lady Vox 5-9 days 7 days
Cazic Thule 5-9 days 7 days
Dracoliche 2 days 12 hours - 3 days 12 hours 3 days
Innoruuk 5-9 days 7 days
Maestro of Rancor 2-4 days 3 days
Talendor 5-9 days 7 days
Gorenaire 5-9 days 7 days
Severilous 5-9 days 7 days
Faydedar 6-8 days 7 days
Venril Sathir 5-9 days 7 days
Trakenon 2 days 6 hours - 3 days 18 hours 3 days
|Overking Bathezid | 2 hours
|Prince Selrach Di'zok| 2 hours
|Queen Velazul Di-zok | 2 hours
Druushk
Hoshkar
Nexona
Phara Dar
Silverwing
Xygoz
Plane of Sky repops
Plane of Fear repops
Plane of Hate repops

This gives us Lord Nagefen, Lady Vox, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Talendor,
Gorenaire, Severilous, Faydedar, and Venril Sathir spawning once per week
(that's 9 raid mobs), and Dracoliche, Maestro of Rancor, and Trakenon
spawning 2 times per week ((rounded down) that's 3 raid mobs).

That's 15 raid targets per week, excluding the chardok royals, the planer respawns, and all of the Veeshan's Peak dragons.

Even if there were 6 raid guilds that could kill all of these mobs without wiping, that would leave over 2 raid targets per week per guild, and that isn't how it would happen, because we still have the planer raid repops, the Chardok royals, epic fights not consisting of the aforementioned mobs, and the Veeshan Peak dragons.

Just assuming that the Veeshan's Peak dragons spawn once per week, that would leave us with 21 raid targets available per week. Even with 10 guilds who could kill all of these mobs, thus even be on a "rotation", you've still got 2 targets per guild, per week, and we're STILL even not considering the epic targets, Chardok royals, or planer respawns.

Now you see, from my perspective, all this is telling me is that many (maybe not all, but many) of the bias, self-titled "best" hardcore raiders who are against any idea of things like rotations, have a simple agenda: They want more than 2 raid targets a week. 'Or', they want all or most of them.

Now EVEN if we took some of my ideas into play. Say had a rotation but had certain raid targets timed and calculated by an automated system so the GM's didn't have to scrutinize it in detail else you lose your spot on the rotation for that mob for your next rotation, I bet you anything you would still only see about 2-3 guilds who would even make it on the rotation for most of these mobs, and I bet you that not even TMO would stay on the rotation for every single mob, every single time.

Go back to my prior idea post and give the fastest, most proficient guilds incentives (such as 2x the loot on a given raid mob for beating a super hard time), and you have a lot of incentive (I feel anyway) to actually desire a system that shares instead of monopolizes.

The difference here is mostly that the biggest and best raid guilds would still come out with the most reward, but those guilds who currently have about zero chance at even an opportunity with a given raid target, would now at least be able to compete a little bit.

Plus, I personally feel that raiding this way would just be less stressful from a time constraint point of view (from the lack of poop-socking), and would be more fun from a competitive point of view (because the competition is doing it as quickly as possible without even a single wipe).


And just for fun:
This page claims VP spawn timers set the named between 24 hours at one point, to 80 hours 53 minutes in an updated version of the zone.

http://www.tessmage.com/AllaClone/zo...de=spawngroups

I believe you've actually detailed the problem. The problem is that there are players who will, as you put it, word for word: "and whatever else is needed to get that kill."

You would have some people doing this if there weren't any rules at all for anything on this server. That doesn't make it right, nor the best thing for the community or the server.

If there was no rule on training, then training and killing someone just so YOU can get dibs on the named doesn't make it right.

Honestly if you can't see that or agree with it, then I have nothing at all else to say to you.

"I do right, because there needs be no reason. I do wrong, because I want."

The basis for definition in contrasting a child and an adult is that maturity lies in the adult. Maturity is in knowing when to be selfless even at your own expense. Immaturity is in acting on impulse when it benefits you, regardless of another's expense.

This is truly not a hard concept. Look at the real world. People will break the rules just to "win" even in competitions as serious as the world Olympics. People will use steroids to win time and again, because they've followed your credence. Yet everyone the world over knows that doing so is against the rules in universally every single applicable situation.

In fact, what I've outlined above in red seems to me to be a picture perfect sentiment to uphold what I'm stating here. To compare analogies: "So long as Olympians are not willing to take steroids (to go the lengths), you'll always be behind."

Doing whatever it takes to win is NOT justifiable by anything but greed. You should'v learned that in grade school, or before.

Rotations tend to break in practice because it removes the impetus for smaller guilds to merge and ally. It inevitably leads to bloat. (Semi)random server resets are far more efficacious than any proposed rotation or similar scheme. It simultaneously enables lesser guilds to fairly compete on a more even playing field, and it still allows power guilds to fairly compete on a playing field where their advantages are still useful, but not overwhelming to the lessers.

As Loraen recently said, in matters like this the issue is with the rules and their implementation and not the players. Playing within the rules to your utmost is never unjustifiable. Cold and unsocial perhaps, but no moral or ethical culpability lies on those who stay within the bounds of the established order. The endgame environment stems mostly from the rules as they are.

The problem with the view here is you're taking "doing whatever it takes to win" and associating it with negative and immoral actions when that isn't always the case. There are rules in place to keep the playing field fair. If players operate within those rules, what makes it unjustifiable, immoral, or greedy?

Would you call the Olympian that works out for an hour more than the rest of the competition every day greedy or immoral? Of course not. You would commend him for his dedication and hard work in order to win the competition. He went the extra mile. He did what all those other Olympians weren't willing to do by sticking it out in the gym for that extra hour each day despite how tired he was.

One could argue that's what TMO or any top guild is doing. They are going that extra mile to achieve their goal. To beat their competition. They are willing to sit and track that spawn those 8 hours that none of the other guilds are. They are willing to sacrifice hours of play to have their character parked in the most strategical location to kill their target. What's immoral or greedy about that? They aren't violating any rules just like that Olympian who isn't violating any rules by working out an extra hour every day.

Not everyone gets the gold medal at the Olympics and I've never heard anyone call the winner a greedy, immoral person for all the sacrifices he makes in order to deprive the competition of that gold medal. You could argue it's the same for raid loot. Not everyone gets to have raid loot. So, why now all of sudden are those who make sacrifices to get the kill considered greedy and immoral? As long as they are operating within the rules, where is the injustice?

P99 raiding is not like classic Tarew Marr.

That being said, why the fuck do any of you WANT to compete with TMO?

If EQ is your one and only hobby, sure, join up and camp your toons at spawn points, track targets for DKP, have people sending messages to your phone to log in and kill a trivial mob at inconvenient times.

I am not exactly sure how a normal person with a job, hobbies, and friends can log in with even 20% raid attendance on a video game.

Work 8 am - 5 pm. Lift from 7 pm - 9 pm. Go out with friends from 9 pm - 11 pm. Before 7 pm eat. Watch a TV show in there somewhere and read P99 forum for drama laughs. After 11 pm relax, eat again, play 45 minutes or so of P99 while talking to significant other who is away right now.

How the hell do you people have time to respond to batphones?

I just don't understand why anyone cares. Get 60, get BIS gear that doesn't come from Trak, VP, or VS. If you're not a sham/rog/mnk/clr don't bother with your epic.

Boom, a hell of a lot more fun Everquest that doesn't come with all the 30 year old neckbeards that the high end entails.

To sum it up - raiding on this server is moronic. Use the server for what it's good for - reliving the Everquest experience with friends up to level 60. Some of you people doing God's work on here could put your time to much better use.

Well...

Yes and no.

You have also retards in wheelchairs like Tortue and Nizzarr