No, you really can’t lol. Good luck dropping AoW without CH or Defensive. I’m not sure what about my comment lead you to believe I was any way saying something like that, because no, the raid scene wouldn’t exist on any serious level without those classes. Especially Clerics.

Sorry if I misinterpreted, just read it as though you were making the claim that any class can be dispensed with or have its role filled by another class (for instance, an Enchanter can replace a Bard for haste, slows, mez and mana regen). If that's the case, then it should be true of Warriors (Pally/SK's tanking instead, or even a Ranger in a pinch with Weaponshield) and Clerics as well (Druid/Shamans heals instead).

That's just how I was reading it.

bards best pullers w/ eye helm and aoe snare

can go fuckin ham

Nobody is going to argue warrior or clerics aren’t needed. That isn’t the point of this thread, it’s if bards deserve a seat at the raid table.

Minus situations aggro tanks are a luxury; warriors can replace knights. We tanked everything with them on live. People just went way slower on dps. Likewise you don’t really need druids for most raids. They are handy for pet charming in fear for CT or in Kael but again that’s more a modern evolution of the concept. I don’t believe in nixing a class but any of these people wouldn’t get critique for swapping out to a wizard or rogue.

AoW or PoG without a bard would be very annoying. Likely not possible at this stage of the progression. Or it would so much worse even a rogue or two would swap to bards.

Ax Toxigen said though so much of this game is outside of raiding. Not just levelling up but adventuring with other 60’s in dungeons, farming, or just running fast while making zoom noises. The min-max game is one to play but the game is more about fun than being “optimal”. If your group can’t do it with a bard instead of a ___ maybe the bard isn’t the problem…

bard veddi gud in raid scene

DS for tanks on any unslowable mob is amazing and it certainly gives the clerics a lot more breathing room w/ the mana pumpage...even without doing the pulse song you're still supplying 163 mana / tick with VP lute in a full cleric group. That would take a lot of clerics to replace that 1 bard in a long fight CH chain.

Have fun doing fear and pog w/o bards...then you've got yeli, VP, gore, etc.

Bard was one of the most fun chars to level and I never did a single swarm. Charm solo was alright but the best was being a hyper aggressive puller (eye helm rocks) for strong groups and just using your mana-costing mez for dicey situations. Bard is easily the best puller.

I used to do crazy shit in KC.

Bards are great! Helm pulling is super fun, and sometimes a little more exciting than I'd prefer :p

It feels pretty cool to be standing in camp doing bard things while continuing to keep the mobs flowing go the group. Lemme just keep that mana/hp/haste/ds/etc rolling while I interrupt that mob's CH I notice is being cast all while my eye is way out there working on getting a pull.

Pretty sweet :)

so a few tanks, all clerics, enough enchanters to keep the 50 rogues and 2 monks hasted?