Mobs now resisting dispel (also dispel in general)

[Pudge]

mobs resisting dispel now. were up in sky and mobs resisted some dispels. im thinking this might have happened when you guys were fixing the "can't resist DD's with dispel component" bug i heard about (didn't really look into it to know what was supposed to be going on)

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also dispels worked differently than they do here. each buff had "counters' just like poison and disease dots have counters on them. i believe most spells had a counter of 2. but some "stronger" spells had more counters, especially higher level HP buffs. just look at the enchanter line of spells:

level 1: taper enchantment (0 counter x1)---??
level 8: cancel magic (1 counter x1)
level 24: strip enchantment (1 counter x4)
level 29: nullify magic (4 counters x2)
level 44: pillage enchantment (4 counters x4)
level 53: recant magic (9 counters x4)

these dispels specified how many counters they dispelled, which by the power of deductive reasoning, tells us buffs themselves had counters on them (see the spell infos on ala/wiki). currently on p99, any spell can be dispelled by 1 cast of cancel magic

[Nirgon]

Annul always took 2 regardless of counters. Add that in there.

[Rettii]

I was always curious was the difference between strip and pillage was and would ask everyone and even test it. Assumed it was the same as the poison and disease mechanic, but...

Not sure if anyone has evidence or can explain why it would be better to use recant or pillage over strip enchantment.

[Dullah]

Actually strip removes 4 also, but it should be less reliable if there were counters.

[SamwiseRed]

lul was about to say wut then i saw who was posting

lol heartbrand deleted his post saying,

"u serious or dumb? strip removes one buff, pillage and recant remove 4, pillage has a 3.0 cast time recant has 2.5"

[SamwiseRed]

http://i.imgur.com/pWBeqwR.jpg

[Bamzal Sherbet]

lol HB so dumb

[Nirgon]

Forum needs item loot

[SamwiseRed]

downed and coined

[Rettii]

Haha hB Moran.

The question is what is benefit over the high lvl 4 slot dispels over strip(the low lvl 4 buff dispell) I guess if cast time is lower that would be why.

But regarding the counters, no difference it seems.

[Nirgon]

Retti sig continuing to drop evidence bombs

[Nirgon]

Big dispel post (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=1&mid=116862624512156783&h=50) (confirms annul always gets 2 and only 2), from 2007 but it hasn't changed..




7. DISPELLING

Most people are fully aware that both buffs and debuffs stick on you in a top-down order; they find the first empty slot and stuff themselves in it.

What people often do not grasp is how dispels work.

Note: Absor, EQ Developer, has confirmed that there are multiple types of dispels available. The majority of them operate in the manner below; some mobs have special dispels that will remove random buffs. For our purposes, however, we'll examine the case of the majority, to help people understand the basic operation of dispelling.

There are numerous spells that we can use to dispel buffs/debuffs, but the best ones available to each class are as follows:

--Recant Magic (ENC)
--Annul Magic (CLR, RNG, DRU, SHM, NEC, WIZ, MAG, BST)
--Nullify Magic: (PAL/SHD)

--Crystallized Pumice: Available to all classes, sold by Mirao Frostpouch in the building NE of the PoK Soulbinder, as well as any place that sells invis potions. It has 5 charges of Nullify Magic with a 3 second casting time. It is clickable from inventory, but you must target yourself.

I will call this line of spells "dispels" throughout the rest of our discussion.

Let's take my second image from above.



That Malo annoys me. RC didn't cure it. Grrr! I want to dispel it.

If you look at Annul Magic on Lucy, it states this:

Annul Magic
1: Cancel Magic(9)
2: Cancel Magic(9)

Remember how Detrimental worked above? This is similar.

In this case, it tells us that Annul Magic will dispel 2 buff slots, at a strength of 9. Remember, dispels don't care whether something is good or bad; it'll dispel it regardless, even if it's something you like. A quick examination of Lucy shows that Recant Magic can dispel 4 buff slots at a strength of 9, and Nullify Magic 2 buff slots at a strength of 4.

Dispels always land, even if they don't seem to work. Each buff gets a check versus the strength of the dispel. If the buff fails the check, it gets stripped. If that buff passes the check, the dispel moves on to the next buff, and so on. In the case of every buff passing the check, no buffs will be stripped.
This is, of course, the problem with dispels; they're unreliable, and are intended to be that way. Since some dispels strip multiple buffs, the first X buffs that fail their check get dispelled. Thus, to some people dispels seem random; they'll cast it, and say "Wait, I lost buff slots 2 and 5! What gives?" As you see, buff slots 1, 3, and 4 passed their check to remain on you.

We are not sure what the check consists of. Sometimes, spells cast by lower level individuals seem "weaker" against dispel, but that may simply be arbitrary perception. Developers have not confirmed anything that I have seen about the process.

Dispels act differently depending on what you are dispelling. For example, if you dispel a mob, you will not dispel something with counters. When they made the change to put disease counters on slow awhile back, part of the rationale was to prevent griefing by rival guilds dispelling it. I believe it works on the same principle in PvP.

In simple terms of dispelling yourself, however, you can dispel anything that's on you. Therefore, using the graphic above, if I cast Nullify Magic on myself to get rid of Malo, it'll probably chew through my Storm Guard and Form of Defense III first. Thus, presuming I had some dire need to get rid of Malo, I would click those off, and take my chances with it taking Voice of Clairvoyance and hopefully Malo. Clicking off Voice of Clairvoyance wouldn't really net me anything except that I'd lose Steeloak, too.

Thankfully, Malo is largely inconsequential. Application to other detrimental effects, however, can easily be drawn. Also of some interest is that dispels are classified as a Beneficial spell for purposes of spell haste.


Evidence of a mob that does a random dispel (classic inny here)
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/972/soloinny2.jpg

This should wrap up dispel mechanics.. now ... on to buffs jumping up to the first available free slot everytime they are cast and not just trying to overwrite first.

[Pudge]

update: today i resisted a nullify that a frog casted on me in seb.

[Pudge]

Bumping for info on dispels. Maybe next patch they'll get super classic?

[p-niner]

Strip removes 1 rregardless of lvl range

[Nirgon]

If it would please the court

(Mostly the dev who would implement this)

I can fire up my untouched classic wizard, do dispels and post the results.

LMK if this is admissable as evidence.

[heartbrand]

Strip removes 1 rregardless of lvl range

Strip removes 1 buff? I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG

[appariti0n]

Just chiming in here, but i can definitely recall very clearly that for the entirety of classic, and kunark at least, dispells did not have a resist check based on your resists, however they may have had a level check.

They would sometimes require more than one cast to recall certain buffs, but I never received a "so and so resisted the annul magic spell" As long as the mob was within 7 levels of me.

On other players, it should impossible to have resisted regardless of level.

[Nirgon]

Annul was always 2 buffs, always unresistable on players, and always the top 2 buffs.

Nullify and cancel had that "find the first buff I'm strong enough to remove" and used remaining buff counters to decide which was removed.

I'm not 100% on all the enchanter stuff on a per spell basis, but the above statements, I am.


Attn to new PvP dev: this has great PvE implication as well. A true 2 birds with one stone thread. Classic dispel mechanics make me happy.

[heals4reals]

Nirgon I also remember pells not hitting first buff on the list. I always thought it was a random dispell and didnt know about counters. Very good memory. Get some evidence for super dev to implement!!

[Nirgon]

There's evidence in the quote above as I'm concerned. It follows the listed logic and considers level of the buff/debuff it is trying to remove, almost like poison or disease.

Strip removes 1 buff? I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG

I hereby promise to do nothing that jeopardizes pixels or anything sacred to anyone's way of life (unless they hate classic EverQuest) please leave dis one be mang.

[heals4reals]

I think in order to get dispell strengths in order the magic buffs and debuffs need to be reworked to have proper counters.

Afaik all buffs are considered (1) currently? Not sure if this is intentional or not.

I could be mistaken and im posting from phone so cant double check but I remember trying to compare contrast poison and disease cures and the different dispells and couldnt see the difference other than cast times on dispells since all the magic counters were not a factor as opposed to poison and disease counters where the strength of the cure made a difference.

[Haynar]

Ok. How do spell strength checks work vs dispell.


Seems like a random, but must be more than a 1 is weak and 9 is strong.

H

[Nirgon]

I can test it on EQ live, I don't think dispel mechanics have changed at all.

[Haynar]

Test away. My experience was that some were not dispellable.

Others really seemed like a rand chance. With cancel magic having low chance to remove one buff. Pillage ench having medium chance at 4 buffs. Nullify medium chance at 2. Annul magic high chance at 2. Or almost always 2.

Pillage Enchantment should provide good data on 4 buffs. See if it basically takes a random # of top 4 dispellable buffs out, not necessarily in order.

[Haynar]

And i found why dispell spells would show resists. Was a bug it seems. Havent tested fix yet.

H

[Grimjaw]

PRAISE CLASSIC EVERQUEST

You think bluebies give a damn about any of these game changing mechanics? No, it takes the purists from RED to develop classical everquest!

[Nirgon]

You see the dispel guide I linked? I'll post some tests later.

[Dullah]

Thought this was largely fixed, but there are some raid mobs that only seem to be dispelled by cancel magic (most recently noticed on Tormax at velious test raid). At the time of this post, everything was resisting most dispels.

[Haynar]

Dispells should not be resisted.

H

[Grimjaw]

every time patches occur, a lot of things re-break on red, mobs resisting unresistable spells is one that continually pops up. mainly things like nullify magic, and the worst: bond of death !!!