Low hp aggro kiting

[Nirgon]

I do recall in classic that a mob would immediately jump to a player who is under around 20% hp.

However if that low hp player continues to kite it, and never goes above 20%, should it continue to just blindly chase that player regardless of any additional threat generated/damage done?

I never used that tactic on live (but use it here) so I can't comment, but this can be used to trivialize content right now.

[Itap]

but this can be used to trivialize content right now.

So does a hand full of other, perfectly legal, tactics. Does that mean it need to be nerfed? No.

We all appreciate you trying to make this server more classic, but this isn't Nirgons personal blog where you can create threads about changing content based off what YOU remember. Do what everyone else does and try to locate some actual data or proof to your claims.

Good say, sir.

[Nirgon]

So does a hand full of other, perfectly legal, tactics. Does that mean it need to be nerfed? No.

We all appreciate you trying to make this server more classic, but this isn't Nirgons personal blog where you can create threads about changing content based off what YOU remember. Do what everyone else does and try to locate some actual data or proof to your claims.

Good say, sir.

I was accused of cheating last night :p, recognize this as game breaking and am generating discussion.

I just said "I don't know if, but this seems like a problem" -- looking for other people's opinions such as : Nilbog, Treats, Ele etc.

Right now I think this is how it should work to be honest. The pixel hunger here man :p.

[Nirgon]

Ah and it should be 25% not 20, good find.

[Nirgon]

I don't see other patch notes regarding it. This would be a pretty major mechanical change they'd mention for sure.

I just feel like if low hp aggro would have been 100% threat forever... no matter what... more people would have known about it.

[cyryllis]

ive been playing EQ since the end of 2000 and always remember low HP aggro being sub 20%, not sub 25%.

[Nirgon]

It was definitely lower than 30 :P, but I'll consider that a side debate for later regarding this more pressing issue

[Cwall 52.0]

it's not currently 100%, i don't think

whistler has pulled aggro from me before when i was at ~15% on a big dual bard kite

[heartbrand]

I have never seen aggro pulled from someone with low hp to someone without before, but that doesn't conclusively prove it can't be done of course. Just to clarify I'm speaking about on this server, obviously on live I have.

[Nirgon]

Will be using and helping others until considered otherwise per Heartbrand :).

[Nizzarr]

There's no way in hell that having under 20% health was 100% aggro no matter what back in the days. If you had a warrior beat on a mob and he was generating a lot of aggro, the mobs wouldnt immediatly turn on someone that did almost no aggro during the fight and finish them off. Basically, blood aggro was just a big +hate modifier and if someone still had more aggro they wouldnt switch to that target.

Right now, the current blood aggro makes it easily exploitable. Having a bard at 15% health running 150 mobs over 1-2 wizards aoeing wasnt how this game was designed.

This also brings back issues like proximity aggro checks from mobs, which is non-existent on this server.

[TWDL_Prexus]

I am 100% certain they will eventually turn on the person damaging them. It takes a while, but a bard talked me into doing it with him in BW and my HP never went above 15% and eventually they turned on him. All he had to do was zone and come back and finish em off. It takes a while, but it happens for sure. Bard would have to zone each kite if it was taking too long.

Can't comment on the classicness of low hp kites. I remember low hp agro though. I just chalked it up to one of those classic mechanics that were never really known by many.

[Nirgon]

This appears to work on mobs with very high hps, like wurms etc. They will definitely turn and take on their correct aggro terms.

Lower hp mobs like wasps etc die before transferring threat correctly.

I think the fix is some how to determine mob total hp versus damage done rather than just some very high flat threat value (though that's how it might have worked).

I'll hafta fiddle with it a lot more.

[Jokesteve]

As of right now, this is trivializing zones such as burning woods. And players who are trying to legitimately level here wont have much luck as there's always about 3+ bard duos kiting the entire zone.

Exploit or not, this is borderline zone disruption.

[Cwall 52.0]

i am here to disrupt your zones, one way or another

[SamwiseRed]

agro works diff in red99 than live. for one, sgs/specs/undead dont agro people as they pass by. they stay on whoever pulled them first, not classic. i dunno if its classic but social agro on eqmac is hella big compared to here. shit is scary as fuck.

[Unfadable]

This is crazy. I was on my bard doing my normal kiting and my swarm down to about 70 percent when a low hp aggro duo runs by and snaps aggro. Needless to say I was pissed.

[sanforce]

I have never seen aggro pulled from someone with low hp to someone without before, but that doesn't conclusively prove it can't be done of course. Just to clarify I'm speaking about on this server, obviously on live I have.

It happens all the time. If I twist my AoE songs longer than 3 minutes during a low HP, I'll pull agro and die.

[Metallikus]

It happens all the time. If I twist my AoE songs longer than 3 minutes during a low HP, I'll pull agro and die.

this is due to the proximity agro check alluded to by Nizzarr which is existent, you just have to do soemthing to put yerself on the list, then if the mobs are close enuff to you then they will chose to attack you instead of the player with more agro and in this case low hp agro. It seems to be a decision process based on how easily the mobs could just turn around and wack you as compared to how far the other guy is with more agro.

If you want a good example, have a bard kite all of fear with any various degree of agro (from prox, to having twisted lots of songs, to used a bladestopper to rune himself, to low hp agro)....then take your monk or whoever and throw 1 jav at one mob in the train and then stand in the way of the train. See what happens - you get pulverized because of how easy it is for them to turn away from their main target to how close you are to them.

[falkun]

Low HP aggro is not 100% aggro. If you think that, you haven't tested it enough. As a bard, I have used low HP aggro to kite Burning Wood and Skyfire. Low HP aggro is a MASSIVE +hate modifier, however that can be overcome by sitting (which has a +hate mod) and other, more normal means (doing damage, healing, buffing, etc.).

It is common practice for bards that are low-HP kiting for the DoTer to relog/zone at certain intervals. I usually end up zoning because I'm at a hate level where standing I don't pull aggro, but sitting (to camp) adds enough hate the pack turns towards me.

To the person commenting on 2 wizards being able to nuke freely during low-HP kiting: the damage hate is split between 2 characters, neither with enough hate to pull aggro. Combined their aggro is likely higher than the kiter's.

Distance aggro checks are also active on this server. If two players have equal aggro on a kite and no other hate modifiers are present (so there isn't low-HP +hate mod, no sitting, etc.), then I guarantee you the pack will attempt to slay whichever player is closer.

Whether its "working as intended" or not is another matter. I'm just here to state:
1) Low HP aggro is a +hate conditional addition (it goes away when the player is above 19-20%, so the mob(s) WILL turn on another player with higher base-aggro).
2) Proximity is also a conditional modifier to hate.
3) Sitting contains a +hate conditional addition as well (you can stay in an aggro range between not having aggro when standing and having aggro when sitting).

[Bamzal Sherbet]

This is crazy. I was on my bard doing my normal kiting and my swarm down to about 70 percent when a low hp aggro duo runs by and snaps aggro. Needless to say I was pissed.

hahahahahaha play better

[Mingo]

There's no way in hell that having under 20% health was 100% aggro no matter what back in the days. If you had a warrior beat on a mob and he was generating a lot of aggro, the mobs wouldnt immediatly turn on someone that did almost no aggro during the fight and finish them off. Basically, blood aggro was just a big +hate modifier and if someone still had more aggro they wouldnt switch to that target.

Right now, the current blood aggro makes it easily exploitable. Having a bard at 15% health running 150 mobs over 1-2 wizards aoeing wasnt how this game was designed.

This also brings back issues like proximity aggro checks from mobs, which is non-existent on this server.


Um. You're wrong. Precisely under 20% was instant aggro. This was used to exploit, terrifically, all the way up through Omens of War and shit. I'll do you one better, there was a range to SUMMON on live and we would kill mobs by having a Shaman build hate on perma rooted mob bosses and run across zone, out of SUMMON range and canni below 20%, then engage raid. Mob would stand there and do nothing trying to kill the shaman that was across the zone and raid would prosper.

Probably can find links to these screenshots on the PDM boards, i'll find the name of the mob we did this on, repeatedly, for last blood seals.

[Bamzal Sherbet]

sounds about as classic as invis pulling.
meaning a classic mechanic that was broken but later fixed

[Treats]

This kinda needs to be fixed, it's rather ridiculous here. Low Health aggro should only be a temporary Hate adjustment, just like what happens when you sit. Once another target eclipses this temporary adjustment in Hate the NPC should switch and disregard the Low Health player.

Distance should also determine what target the NPC would go after (something like this):

Bard pulls 20 NPC's and gets low health
NPCs continue to chase him as long as noone else is on hate list
Wizard stands and waits for NPCs to path by
Wizard is placed on the Hate list by casting a Nuke/etc
NPCs will disregard Low Health aggro of the Bard IF the wizard is within a certain distance directly related to the Bard

Low Health target is 50 units away -- If new target is within 25 units away from NPC it will disregard Low Health and switch

This would not be applied to NPCs over 51 because they can summon.

[Nirgon]

Mingo what in the hell game were you playing man?

Low hp caused a high temporary spike in aggro.

If you get rezzed next to a mob that is being pulled through camp, for instance in plane of fear, it should turn and instagib you. Proximity aggro as Nizzar says.

Enjoy Sirran while he lasts etc.