Training research at the trainer

[rahmani]

As a dedicated quadder, I seem to be choosing mobs to kill that do not drop any runes. Therefore, I have chosen to just increase my skill level in research at the Wizard trainer.

Since research is a trade skill, the formula is 5(Level - 15) for the skill max, which means at level 49, I'll have 170.

How safe would it be to attempt to combine Rune of Frost and Rune of the Astral at 170 for Ice Comet, when the trivial is 184, I realize I will be quite below the trivial, what are the chances of me failing?

(It will be 14 points below trivial.)

I would hate to wait until 52.

[Ashburn]

Not sure if you want the spell for nostalgia or something, but honestly do yourself a favor and don't worry about it because you'll never use it.

[rahmani]

Not sure if you want the spell for nostalgia or something, but honestly do yourself a favor and don't worry about it because you'll never use it.

I can't really be a Wizard without ice comet!

[ko37qtl]

Not sure if you want the spell for nostalgia or something, but honestly do yourself a favor and don't worry about it because you'll never use it.

Care to expand on this a bit? I had an ice comet using wizard on Live once upon a time, and I've got one that may one day get to that point here. Just curious.

[Ashburn]

Care to expand on this a bit? I had an ice comet using wizard on Live once upon a time, and I've got one that may one day get to that point here. Just curious.

Well he said he was a dedicated quadder, so it's useless there. And you get superior nukes 51+ that don't require research skill or gathering runes to get, just a trip to the vendor.

[ko37qtl]

Well he said he was a dedicated quadder, so it's useless there. And you get superior nukes 51+ that don't require research skill or gathering runes to get, just a trip to the vendor.

Ah, I see what you mean. Makes perfect sense in that light. You had me spooked for a minute.

[rahmani]

Well, does anybody know the success rate equation?

[webrunner5]

Why not just pay a level 60 Wizard with a high as hell Research Skill to combine it? Looks like they go for 2 to 5k on Wiki. Sounds dangerous to me.

[rahmani]

My only confusion is whether or not the resulting spell will be No-Drop or not

[Tasslehofp99]

Ah, I see what you mean. Makes perfect sense in that light. You had me spooked for a minute.

Ice comet will probably not be used a whole lot outside of maybe exp groups once you hit level 51. That spell is resisted quite often too from what I've seen on p99. :cool:

[Swish]

My only confusion is whether or not the resulting spell will be No-Drop or not

Definitely 100% NOT tradeable :p

I managed to combine some 49 necro spells okay with a 167 research skill. Its a risk whatever happens... what percentage would make you say "I'll try!" ?

You can get the runes again if the combine fails :)

[ko37qtl]

Ice comet will probably not be used a whole lot outside of maybe exp groups once you hit level 51. That spell is resisted quite often too from what I've seen on p99. :cool:

I'm much more interested in xp grouping than raiding, so that won't bother me much if I ever get a wizard back to that point. Good information to have, though, thanks.

[Estu]

Ice comet's not a great spell. It does more DPS than Rend but is less mana-efficient, which most of the time is what you really care about. Supernova, the other research spell at that level, is also huge DPS for a PBAE nuke (which you'll care about if you have any sense =p) but is terrible mana efficiency; you're better off with Thunderclap.

The two spells have some use but are by no means vital so don't worry too much if you screw up the combine.

[ko37qtl]

Ice comet's not a great spell. It does more DPS than Rend but is less mana-efficient, which most of the time is what you really care about. Supernova, the other research spell at that level, is also huge DPS for a PBAE nuke (which you'll care about if you have any sense =p) but is terrible mana efficiency; you're better off with Thunderclap.

The two spells have some use but are by no means vital so don't worry too much if you screw up the combine.

Now that you mention it, I recall that rend was my mainstay at that point. However, I think when all one really does is magical damage, it behooves a wizard to have as many effective tools as are reasonably possible, since resists vary.

[August]

No one answered your question! Tomtee to the rescue!

170 skill, 184 trivial.

Formula for success for trivial =

Skill - (trivial * 3 / 4) + 51.5

170 - 138 + 51.5 = 83.5% chance of success!!

Good luck

[rahmani]

No one answered your question! Tomtee to the rescue!

170 skill, 184 trivial.

Formula for success for trivial =

Skill - (trivial * 3 / 4) + 51.5

170 - 138 + 51.5 = 83.5% chance of success!!

Good luck

You just made my day! Have a star

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTC6JvjG_GlEAgju6Pz9wjycFgvvPIiQ suQ5kb1kMVe86P5n7vH

[Estu]

No one answered your question! Tomtee to the rescue!

170 skill, 184 trivial.

Formula for success for trivial =

Skill - (trivial * 3 / 4) + 51.5

170 - 138 + 51.5 = 83.5% chance of success!!

Good luck

I'm not sure I trust this formula. According to this, if your skill level is 150 and you're performing a trivial-100 combine, you'll always succeed, but my experience has been that there is always a chance for failure regardless of your skill. Does this formula only hold until a skill is trivial?

[August]

I'm not sure I trust this formula. According to this, if your skill level is 150 and you're performing a trivial-100 combine, you'll always succeed, but my experience has been that there is always a chance for failure regardless of your skill. Does this formula only hold until a skill is trivial?


Very good point, Estu. The formula for success is actually

MIN(SKILL - (.75*trivial) + 51.5, 95) -- this is for things w/ trivial higher than 68.

For things w/ lower than trivial of 68:

MIN(Skill - Trivial + 66, 95)

And actually that's not completely true either - you always have a 5 percent chance of success in either formula REGARDLESS of skill level.

There's always a 5 percent chance to fail or succeed, regardless of skill. It is perhaps the most heartbreaking thing about doing combines, especially when you advertise you are 'max skill' -- people don't think their combine will be the one that fails, but they invariably do -- 5% of the time.

When I was a jeweler on Fippy I sold ~200 pieces a day for awhile and you'd always see about 10 failures -- In fact when I calculate my absolute price per piece of jewelry I factor in that 5% fail rate so the 'bottom' line increases more than the actual cost of materials.

[Estu]

Very good point, Estu. The formula for success is actually

MIN(SKILL - (.75*trivial) + 51.5, 95) -- this is for things w/ trivial higher than 68.

For things w/ lower than trivial of 68:

MIN(Skill - Trivial + 66, 95)

And actually that's not completely true either - you always have a 5 percent chance of success in either formula REGARDLESS of skill level.

There's always a 5 percent chance to fail or succeed, regardless of skill. It is perhaps the most heartbreaking thing about doing combines, especially when you advertise you are 'max skill' -- people don't think their combine will be the one that fails, but they invariably do -- 5% of the time.

When I was a jeweler on Fippy I sold ~200 pieces a day for awhile and you'd always see about 10 failures -- In fact when I calculate my absolute price per piece of jewelry I factor in that 5% fail rate so the 'bottom' line increases more than the actual cost of materials.

Cool, thanks for the formulas. I either didn't know or forgot that they were actually known.

By the way, Ice Comet is No Trade (confirmed this yesterday). The other level 49 wizard research spells are tradeable, though.

[Malcorin]

Ice comet's not a great spell. It does more DPS than Rend but is less mana-efficient, which most of the time is what you really care about. Supernova, the other research spell at that level, is also huge DPS for a PBAE nuke (which you'll care about if you have any sense =p) but is terrible mana efficiency; you're better off with Thunderclap.

The two spells have some use but are by no means vital so don't worry too much if you screw up the combine.

Small nitpick, but Ice Comet and Rend have the same mana / damage ratio (0.3571429).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJ6242IWwWqdDFSNm1QY0g1azk2aTBEMWp3V2Fke UE&usp=sharing

[August]

Cool, thanks for the formulas. I either didn't know or forgot that they were actually known.

By the way, Ice Comet is No Trade (confirmed this yesterday). The other level 49 wizard research spells are tradeable, though.

Not only that but the 'chance to skill up' formula is also known:

IF(SKILL-TRIVIAL>=0,0,((((MAIN_STAT*10)/SKILL_DIFFICULTY)*(SUCCESS_RATE/100))+(((MAIN_STAT*10/(2*SKILL_DIFFICULTY))*((100-SUCCESS_RATE)/100))))/1000*MIN(0.95,(200-SKILL)/200))

0.o

[Swish]

Not only that but the 'chance to skill up' formula is also known:

IF(SKILL-TRIVIAL>=0,0,((((MAIN_STAT*10)/SKILL_DIFFICULTY)*(SUCCESS_RATE/100))+(((MAIN_STAT*10/(2*SKILL_DIFFICULTY))*((100-SUCCESS_RATE)/100))))/1000*MIN(0.95,(200-SKILL)/200))

0.o

http://i.imgur.com/yUNhh.gif

[August]

That is of course with the SUCCESS_RATE being defined by the aforementioned formula, and the 'main_stat' actually being a formula on the stat you are using (int, dex, str depending on the tradeskill), and skill difficulty being the coefficient of difficulty for each skill.

for instance, pottery and jc are both 4s, which are the hardest. blacksmith is only a 2. you can see there is an inverse relationship as the skill difficulty is always in the denominator.

[Estu]

Small nitpick, but Ice Comet and Rend have the same mana / damage ratio (0.3571429).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJ6242IWwWqdDFSNm1QY0g1azk2aTBEMWp3V2Fke UE&usp=sharing

So they do. Bad memory on my part.

[strides]

am I crazy in thinking that the trivial stat has something to do with your int and the that your charactor lvl will determin how successfull you are in your combine? for instance I have int of 195 on my lvl 34 necro and my research is at 95 i can lvl 34 spells with a good amout of success but i seem to have that same rate of success with higher lvl combines .. i jsut think for research you char lvl and int have to be condidered in to the rate of success. let me know where im wrong.

Thanks!
Qwesan (research)

[August]

am I crazy in thinking that the trivial stat has something to do with your int and the that your charactor lvl will determin how successfull you are in your combine? for instance I have int of 195 on my lvl 34 necro and my research is at 95 i can lvl 34 spells with a good amout of success but i seem to have that same rate of success with higher lvl combines .. i jsut think for research you char lvl and int have to be condidered in to the rate of success. let me know where im wrong.

Thanks!
Qwesan (research)

Yes, you are crazy. "Success Rate" is determined by your skill (which is capped by level) and the trivial skill level requird by the combine.

"Skill up" is determined by your intelligence (or dex, or str, depending on the tradeskill) + your success rate. You are more likely to skill up on a successful combine. For this reason, it is always correct to be making the closest non-trivial skill up on your skill-up path.

I crap cleaner code. I hope that wasn't pulled from the server's code...

This is pulled from my excel spreadsheet.