Remove Hybrid Penalty

[Sektor]

Not sure why these exist but a ranger having a penalty is pretty crazy. You will see more people building hybrids and added pop onto the server for this one little change.

[Dullah]

+1

I think originally Verant intended for hybrids to be somewhat more powerful, but come Kunark, they actually end up being just a little more utility and pretty useless in the end game.

Not that I have any illusions of this ever being changed, just thought I'd throw in a +1.

[Proverbs28]

good job destin. posting and supporting an idea you CARE about.

[Dullah]

I think you are somehow confused with how forums work. Threads aren't created only for those who support them, but to actually converse and debate topics to arrive at ideas and compromises that people find mutually agreeable.

Don't know why I'm even wasting my time responding to someone who communicates like a 10 year old that flunked reading comprehension and can't even bother to use any form of punctuation. First the spelling, and then the grammar...

[nabsev]

Does the hybrid penalty hit group also or is it only on them? Can't remember if this was changed.

[Proverbs28]

english not my first language , jerk

[Proverbs28]

+1

I think originally Verant intended for hybrids to be somewhat more powerful, but come Kunark, they actually end up being just a little more utility and pretty useless in the end game.

Not that I have any illusions of this ever being changed, just thought I'd throw in a +1.

called me a useless paladin on thread 15 mins ago.

then shows me why...

here destin i thought i was just a bad player.

but i guess i was just useless end game because of verant.

FEEL SO MUCH BETTER NOW!!!

thanks buddy. :)

[Dullah]

It doesn't work like most people think, but ultimately yes it affects the group. The exp you receive is based on the total experience you've ever earned. People with penalties have earned more even though their level doesn't accurately reflect it, thus they get more of the exp pie.

[Tavrin]

Hybrid Penalties were removed in Velious. So, since bugs are fixed according to live timeline here (in theory) we should see it a few months after Velious is released.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

[Dullah]

called me a useless paladin on thread 15 mins ago.

then shows me why...

here destin i thought i was just a bad player.

but i guess i was just useless end game because of verant.

FEEL SO MUCH BETTER NOW!!!

thanks buddy. :)

You were useless because you were useless, had nothing to do with your class.

Paladins are fun though and great in pvp, even if their benefit in the end game pve scene is small.

[Dullah]

Hybrid Penalties were removed in Velious. So, since bugs are fixed according to live timeline here (in theory) we should see it a few months after Velious is released.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

Wow cool I did not know this was changed as early as velious. Shame they couldn't take it out early here seeing that it admittedly made no sense to be there to begin with. Some classic mechanics could just be done without and later fixes should be implemented.. alas here we are without a compass.

[nilbog]

alas here we are without a compass.


http://i46.tinypic.com/4zxp35.jpg

Pick it up at your local gypsy camp.

[Sirken]

http://wiki.project1999.org/Compass

[Proverbs28]

you know all you have to do is have someone link you their compass and u dont ever have to buy one?

sorry for posting game changing exploits in forum sirken

[Dullah]

Lol, i just got trolled.

[nabsev]

you know all you have to do is have someone link you their compass and u dont ever have to buy one?

sorry for posting game changing exploits in forum sirken

rofl

[fiegi 2.5]

I will never ever ever....group with a hybrid

[Nirgon]

These colors don't run

(Ranger being able to harmony in Karnor and other outdoor dungeons and zones along with track on a reported no MQ box, real useless)

[Rettii]

you know all you have to do is have someone link you their compass and u dont ever have to buy one?

sorry for posting game changing exploits in forum sirken

:D

[Nirgon]

Oh yeah Unrest and crushbone.

Are they good pvp zones? Does harmony work there? Rangers terribad.

[Potus]

Verant admitted it was a mistake and corrected it. And yes, in the beta you had evidence that hybrids were more powerful than the classes they were based upon and thus there was the penalty. Of course that changed very, very quickly.

I was shocked the server launched with race/class penalties because they didn't make much sense, and besides staring at the book were probably the most unpopular thing about "classic" EQ.

[Vile]

Remove hybrid pentalty and increase XP rates immensely to 45 imo... pop will go nuts

[Nirgon]

Verant admitted it was a mistake and corrected it. And yes, in the beta you had evidence that hybrids were more powerful than the classes they were based upon and thus there was the penalty. Of course that changed very, very quickly.

I was shocked the server launched with race/class penalties because they didn't make much sense, and besides staring at the book were probably the most unpopular thing about "classic" EQ.

Show me where they admitted it was a mistake?

There are posts by Brad and company saying they always thought the PvP servers were the most interesting, those can be found I'm sure.

I knew a wide range of play styles on RZ, some casual, some hardcore... some hardcore pvp, some hardcore pve. At no point was any one wishing item loot was removed, and I shook a lot of hands and kissed a lot of babies to move up that guild ladder. Not one complaint.

Now... the blue server on the other hand.. they wish this server never existed, wish EQ PvP never existed.. well fine.


It was in an email to Searyx:

Thank you for the email and kind words- Bacon is the food of gods (I always wanted to make bacon be a rare drop off of Cazic).

We're well on our way in crafting our next big gaming project, but we should have a quiet and relaxing holiday season.

-- Red99 sounds fun, I always loved the PvP servers the best. :)
-Brad


You will not insult that man and what he created btw.

HE WROTE A FUCKING SMILEY FACE TOO, K?

[Prince]

I will never ever ever....group with a hybrid



weeeeEEEE are never ever ever, gonna grouuuuup togetherr

[heartbrand]

Show me where they admitted it was a mistake?

There are posts by Brad and company saying they always thought the PvP servers were the most interesting, those can be found I'm sure.

I knew a wide range of play styles on RZ, some casual, some hardcore... some hardcore pvp, some hardcore pve. At no point was any one wishing item loot was removed, and I shook a lot of hands and kissed a lot of babies to move up that guild ladder. Not one complaint.

Now... the blue server on the other hand.. they wish this server never existed, wish EQ PvP never existed.. well fine.


It was in an email to Searyx:


You will not insult that man and what he created btw.

HE WROTE A FUCKING SMILEY FACE TOO, K?

Brad and his Vision were fucking lame. Guy lucked into something and had no clue what to do with it. I know some of the people here are retarded and like to praise some of the fucking terrible features of classic EQ as amazing and what not, such as this the Hybrid Penalty, but the vast majority of us recognize them for what they were/are, dumb.

[nilbog]

Brad and his Vision were fucking lame.

had no clue what to do with it.

I know some of the people here are retarded

fucking terrible features of classic EQ

majority of us recognize them for what they were/are, dumb.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Aaz6RWn_XNU/T1t5ZXyIg6I/AAAAAAAAA0M/hZ9GK9EKtzM/s1600/big-lebowski-gif.gif

[Rettii]

Heartbrand always getting a disapproving head shake but never takes a hint

[heartbrand]

Brad is the same guy who lied to the playerbase saying things like "paladin epic is in game" when it actually wasn't, "alchemy is working pals" when it wasn't coded yet, etc. etc. Did you guys not see the debacle that was Vanguard? Did everyone here forget about how awful Luclin was? Do people here really forget all the bugs that existed in classic EQ that Brad simply refused to admit? What about the awful imbalances that existed? Remember how druids and shamans couldn't get groups in classic (where there were long lists for every camp so you couldn't just go lol go solo newb cuz everything was camped) because they had no ability to heal end game? It took until velious to finally give them somewhat of a heal for them to be able to help. The aggro issues with rangers / rogues, rangers being fucking useless, monks being gods until Luclin, hybrid EXP penalty, etc., etc. I guess some people think the class imbalance was an amazing feature of classic EQ and love it, but those of us who played back then remember how awful this was and how lolworthy it was to see the 10000+ post threads with everyone agreeing how awful many of these things were and "The Vision" being mentioned over and over again, only to in almost every single instance have The Vision ultimately be over turned by more competent game designers.

Velious wasn't the pinnacle of EQ because Monks were imbalanced gods, it was because of a compelling storyline, different faction options with differing risk v reward, great itemization, immersive quests etc. People here keep confusing the awesome features this game had such as the interdependence classes had upon one another, the social aspect of the game, the immersive qualities, etc., etc., with the annoyances, imbalances, etc, and want to somehow claim these same very broken features that people rightfully moaned and bitched about back in 2000 are somehow amazing classic aspects now. Get real.

People, well most people, aren't here on Project 1999 because they think back with fond memories of that great hybrid exp penalty or the awful classic UI, not having a compass, item links not existing, etc., they come here because the gameplay from Classic - Velious was a shit load of fun, and EverQuest with it's non-instancing, contested raid targets, smallish world where people rely upon one another, important reputations etc., is immersive as fuck.


Edit: Here's a typical post from allakhazam about the effect of hybrid penalties back then:

1) Hybrid classes had the largest penalties of any group. It was rated at about 50-60%(Far above the originally list 25%) and the hybrid penalty also ended up extending to anyone the hybrid was GROUPED with. Once this became common knowledge hybrids couldn't get groups and people stopped playing them till they removed the penalty. They said they had to actually CREATE experience to compensate for the penalty actually meaning you got more experience for a kill to make up for the penalty so as to balance it out to being no penalty(that's about how they explained it at the time).

Sounds kind of similar to how hybrids are treated here.

[heartbrand]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Aaz6RWn_XNU/T1t5ZXyIg6I/AAAAAAAAA0M/hZ9GK9EKtzM/s1600/big-lebowski-gif.gif

Ya the thousands of people in classic who rallied against Hybrid Penalties and eventually got it changed and the hundreds here on the forums who keep saying over and over again how dumb they are, are all apparently wrong.

[heartbrand]

Experience Penalties - Description

I think that it would be appropriate to say that most players are aware that there are different experience requirements for advancement based upon the race and class you choose to play. Ogres, for instance, require more experience to level than Halflings, and Shadowknights require more experience to level than Warriors. As such, an Ogre Shadowknight requires FAR more experience to level than a Halfling Warrior does. What some people have discovered is that when in a group, everyone shares in this penalty. Before getting into our plan, I think that its important to talk about what our goals were regarding experience penalties and the group sharing in that penalty.

When EverQuest player characters were being designed, it was immediately apparent that some races and classes would be more powerful than others given versatility and other factors. Later, it came to light that the concept of being "more powerful" began to break down at the upper levels, given that everyone capped at the same level. We could not let any one race or class be immensely more powerful than another at that final point, as it would essentially put parts of the game off limits to those who chose the less powerful classes. While we did a good job of making races vary in power, but not so much as to be unbalancing, the same could not be said for classes. Still, though classes would be roughly equivalent in regard to the compelling reason to play them through versatility, the experience penalties were kept.

In regards to the sharing of the experience penalty, it was apparent in beta, before the penalty was shared, that those playing characters without an experience penalty leveled faster than those that did. It was obvious that this would occur, but it was to the extreme that a group of friends, all playing together, would become separated to the point that they could no longer group efficiently in the mid to upper-mid levels. So we chose to distribute experience in the group on the basis of the total experience of each member rather than the level, in order to keep groups together.

As such, a level 20 Troll SK, having more experience total than a Human Wizard of the same level, would get more experience from each kill, while the total experience for the kill was unchanged. Essentially, the SK would take part of the Wizard's share were everything distributed equally to begin with.

Experience Penalties - Resolutions

Over the past week the EverQuest team has been considering experience penalties in all their forms. We had many meetings where the issue was hotly debated from both sides. We had to consider not only the effect on the individualplayer, but also the effect of any changes on the game as a whole. Eventually, we nearly unanimously decided the following:


1. Race-based penalties are appropriate. An ogre, for instance, does indeed make a better warrior than a halfling. It is not so little that the faction and size problems make up for it, and not so much that it is really unbalancing at upper levels, but enough that the penalty should apply. Secondly, the penalty is not so severe (compared with class-based penalties) that it would cause groups to break up on the journey from one to sixty due to level differences.

2. Class-based penalties are not appropriate. Classes are roughly equivalent in power throughout the level ranges, and the versatility does not make up for that penalty. In fact, the majority of changes made to classes in the name of balance in the last year were based on the assumption that, at the high end, each class should still be roughly as needed and balanced as any other.

3. Penalties, in any form, should not be shared with the group. Players know that no one class is immensely more powerful/valuable than another, and as such it is not fair to ask them to share a burden. If classes with penalties were really more powerful or valuable than the other classes, then it might be right, but that isn't the case here. Furthermore, sharing of penalties causes people to reject potential group members on the basis of them "sucking" too much experience.

4. We're going to fix it.

5. Class-based experience bonuses (which warriors and rogues get) are also not appropriate, as they cannot be so if penalties are not. However, we've decided to leave this as-is, since the bonus is not so severe as to be unbalancing. Bottom line: we don't feel the bonus is enough to warrant a fix that could be interpreted as a 'nerf'.




So, how can you tell me that even though ultimately they realized EXP Class Penalties were dumb and therefore needed to be fixed, that nonetheless it was a great feature originally and should be in place here? (BTW it took months and months of people pointing this out to the stubborn Verant crew as they kept responding The Vision, The Vision, before they finally realized they fucked up) This is what irks me the most about things here. Many items were nerfed or what not retroactively because they were over powered, they shouldn't have exited in their original form, but yet we allow them to exist here for X amount of time supposedly roughly equivalent to the duration of live but almost always far longer due to infrequent patches. But, if the original item as it was implemented was over powered, it should NEVER be in, it was a mistake. Does it matter it took X amount of months for Verant to realize this? We don't do this for things like Alchemy and not put it into the game, we don't keep in all the broken quests that were broken until their fix date or what not, so why do we do it there? There just seems to be no rhyme or reason here to things like this. A perfect example is an item like the T-Staff. Eventually they realized, wow, we really fucked up with this item it's incredibly OP and needs to be changed, but because they didn't finally have this revelation until Luclin it will never happen here? I dunno man, that doesn't make too much sense to me. If the reasoning is, hey bro it's classic, then it's time to intentionally leave bugged encounters and quests in their original bugged form as well for X months of duration so that literally every aspect of this server mirrors the way it was on live for the exact same duration of time.

[Rettii]

Tldr

[nilbog]

Ya the thousands of people in classic who rallied against Hybrid Penalties and eventually got it changed and the hundreds here on the forums who keep saying over and over again how dumb they are, are all apparently wrong.

Wrong is irrelevant. Every single eq server from 1999 until 2001 had hybrid experience penalties, so they exist here. In Velious, they go away. Nothing more, nothing less.

I played a half elf paladin to level 60.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CLAye3BE7Sw/TNF5uaIsXCI/AAAAAAAABCQ/F0wPbVaa4wM/s1600/i+dontcare.jpg

[Graahle]

Wrong is irrelevant. Every single eq server from 1999 until 2001 had hybrid experience penalties, so they exist here. In Velious, they go away. Nothing more, nothing less.

I played a half elf paladin to level 60.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CLAye3BE7Sw/TNF5uaIsXCI/AAAAAAAABCQ/F0wPbVaa4wM/s1600/i+dontcare.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyftjT_SJfA

[heartbrand]

Wrong is irrelevant. Every single eq server from 1999 until 2001 had hybrid experience penalties, so they exist here. In Velious, they go away. Nothing more, nothing less.

I played a half elf paladin to level 60.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CLAye3BE7Sw/TNF5uaIsXCI/AAAAAAAABCQ/F0wPbVaa4wM/s1600/i+dontcare.jpg

And again, per my prior post, if that is the reasoning, that despite Verant admitting they fucked up later on we keep it here to "honor the timeline" then we should do the same with bugged quests / encounters that weren't functional as well so that everything mirrors the 1999 -2001 timeline identically as close as possible.

[Prince]

egg pumice

[nilbog]

And again, per my prior post, if that is the reasoning, that despite Verant admitting they fucked up later on we keep it here to "honor the timeline" then we should do the same with bugged quests / encounters that weren't functional as well so that everything mirrors the 1999 -2001 timeline identically as close as possible.

I kinda strive to do that. List what you got. If you have fixable issues, I'm down for looking into them.

I assume people will add a few choice things and not a realistic list. Egg shaped pumice, Ivandyr's hoop etc. But quests and encounters? I do want to know.

[heartbrand]

It's just counter intuitive to me to bug report functional quests because they weren't functional correctly @ X point in the timeline, but if that is in fact the goal here so be it I will do my best to do so, I just personally (which admittedly does not matter as this is not my project nor vision) think if something was changed because it wasn't working etc., that is a positive change.

[Froglok]

I kinda strive to do that. List what you got. If you have fixable issues, I'm down for looking into them.

I assume people will add a few choice things and not a realistic list. Egg shaped pumice, Ivandyr's hoop etc. But quests and encounters? I do want to know.

Spider silk is not stupposed to be stacking until Velious =P This is a game breaking issue as new players with no money for bags have a space penalty! <g>

[Prince]

spell book med

[Erebus]

spell book med
Spider silk is not stupposed to be stacking until Velious =P This is a game breaking issue as new players with no money for bags have a space penalty! <g>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV-864eS2pw

Don't do it bloodbath

[Rettii]

Should be able to charm people and attack with them. Was my /duel strategy as a bard in EC - meet shady swashbuckler scum newb

[Prince]

god yes

[heartbrand]

Should be able to charm people and attack with them. Was my /duel strategy as a bard in EC - meet shady swashbuckler scum newb

Lol I did something similar. This is the shit that kills me the PVP on the PVP sever is light years apart from what classic PVP was but if its something like the compass being in game better watch out pals. If this PVP server is already going to have custom resists, custom rule set (exp loss coin only), spells not working, things like jboots not canceling snare on release, water not los'ing spells, Mage bolts, list goes on, why drop the classic word on things like hybrid penalties, yellow text, hot zones?

[Dullah]

I kinda strive to do that. List what you got. If you have fixable issues, I'm down for looking into them.

I assume people will add a few choice things and not a realistic list. Egg shaped pumice, Ivandyr's hoop etc. But quests and encounters? I do want to know.

How bout we start with resists. Everything else is irrelevant.

[nilbog]

Heartbrand, if apples, then oranges. You can go on forever comparing whatever you'd like, but this particular thread is about hybrid exp penalty.

You mentioned quests and encounters being in the game that shouldn't be according to the timeline. I would like to hear about these because we specifically change things for that reason. See Cargo Clockwork, Initiate Symbols, drowned citizens, etc..etc..etc.

Now, I assume the thread will devolve into people asking for everything they want to see in a pvp server, nothing about hybrid exp penalty, and I'll stop reading it. There are threads for that. It is exceedingly difficult to discuss ANYTHING on the pvp forums without this happening.

[SamwiseRed]

make players charmable plz also fear should land on players as well, shits classic and hilarious

[Erebus]

It is exceedingly difficult to discuss ANYTHING on the pvp forums without this happening.

because your logic has a massive hole in it that people like to shove their pvp complaints into...

then again, what do I know, I'm new here.

[Supreme]

Level 60 here i come!








When Velious is out.

[Rettii]

Level 60 here i come!








When Velious is out.

Lol

[SamwiseRed]

Level 60 here i come!




When Velious is out.

prob same for me. i can only do like 4 quads til im bored out my mind and log. 4 quads a week, someone do the math on how long itll take me to be 60 plz.

[Graahle]

Level 60 here i come!








When Velious is out.

SKPA (Shadow Knight Players Anonymous) meetings to begin soon.

[Tomatoking]

sam you arent a hybrid

druids get an exp bonus

velious wont change your exp

[Tavrin]

prob same for me. i can only do like 4 quads til im bored out my mind and log. 4 quads a week, someone do the math on how long itll take me to be 60 plz.

Just charm kill sol b, it will at least be interesting. Faster xp as well, quadding is mind numbingly boring.

[SamwiseRed]

ye pretty much xp outside groups is boring. once i PL the new batch of players up solb will be my home again.

[Erebus]

ye pretty much xp outside groups is boring. once i PL the new batch of players up solb will be my home again.

Pl me :-( lvl 20 wiz/ 25 war

[Prince]

pl me HELP 30 wiz well on my way to 29

[stormlord]

It's all covered here:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

For those who don't want to read it, I'll try to explain.

They gave additional powers to hybrids that were not fully compensated for in stats/skills.

Lets compare a level ~17 ranger and warrior.

Basically, they gave a warrior 15% more hp than a ranger and higher ac softcaps and (rare) criticals when under 40% health and higher initial strength for a small boost to atk and the ability to wear plate.

They gave rangers the ability to cast a 10hp minor heal, a root, a snare, a small dot, a small direct damage spell, small buff (or two), and I think that about sums up their spells. They also gave rangers bow criticals, the best bows, tracking and hiding/sneaking.

You might think that the warrior has quite a few advantages in combat, but in solo situations and in small groups, the ranger's ability to root and snare are tremendous life savers. 15% hp is insignificant compared to the ability to root or snare. The ac softcap is insignificant in the lower levels since almost all players are wearing cloth and/or leather and maybe some banded. The critical bonus for warriors is too random and not dependable. One death and you lose a lot of time!

I actually compared a 17 warrior and a 17 ranger myself in a solo situation against a brigand. The warrior died at about 20% brigand health on average. The ranger managed to kill the brigand with 50% hp and 50% mana remaining. Most of the gain is in root and snare. Without those, the ranger is worse than the warrior.

You also must keep in mind that the 10hp minor heal reduces downtime in solo situations. While it's not nearly as useful in groups, it can still help infrequently.

The problem is that it's hard to know how much root and snare are worth in strict terms. This is what really challenged the design team and maybe confused them. In a group situation, the rangers abilities are redundant. In solo or small group situations, they can save lives. But none of this has a number attached to it. It's very non-linear and hard to measure. Players might not even use these abilities right. In any case, they chose to give hybrids a 40% experience penalty to compensate for their extra "utility". Utility is chinese for intangibles.

They guessed that the experience penalty would make things equal. The problem is that when players reached the max level cap then the experience penalty would no longer balance the classes and thus the hybrids would be overpowered. This became a lot clearer when players DID hit the cap.

They also didn't fully anticipate what would happen to groups that were composed of friends. The hybrids would level so much slower that they would become a hindrance to the group and eventually would not stay within the level range to get experience. This means that hybrids would be outleveled by their friends and removed from the group.

The fact that hybrids shared their experience penalty in groups made things worse.

Furthermore, the changes they made to the game after launch tended to assume that all the classes should be balanced equally. This means that they gave extra bonuses to non-hybrids and/or assigned disadvantages to hybrids. This reduced the power of the hybrids.

To sum it all up, the experience penalty system introduced more problems than it solved.

Now that's basically what the link says.

Here's what I think...

There's no way to have a jack-of-all-trades class without destroying their ability to group versus classes with specific roles. Rogues and monks and wizards will top DPS. Enchanters and druids will top CC. Clerics and Shamans and Druids will top healing. Warriors will top tanking. Necromancers will top soloing. This means that in a group situation the classes which come with specific roles built into their class are more favored than hybrids, since hybrids are more generic in their capabilities. So hybrids will be much less valued in a full group UNLESS they can compete with classes that're built with specific roles in mind. So the only way to really do this is to overpower them by giving them extra dps or extra healing or extra cc or whatever while -already- giving them extra utility for soloing power. This allows them to compete in a group so they won't always be left either soloing or joining small groups.

Verant/SOE chose -not- to, either:
a) Overpower hybrids
b) Continue overpowering hybrids

The only way to do this is to either breakdown the divide between soloing and grouping so that extra utility is less class defining and/or to give hybrids additional roles in a group. My feeling is that they did both over the years. They gave everybody more ability to solo and also gave hybrids unique roles. One example of "giving hybrids a unique role" for a ranger might be their ATK buffs which they using while soloing but use in groups too. Or their ability to track. Or snaring. These things either stack or aren't made redundant in groups.

Remember that if a ranger is as good as a rogue at dps on average AND a ranger has a better ability to solo than a rogue and a rogue doesn't have other roles than the ranger will be overpowered. You can't liberally give soloing abilities only to a couple classes while also giving them equal grouping abilities to other classes. There's a give and take going on. Things have to be balanced so that everyone gets a fair shake.

More modern games have chosen not to divide classes based on soloing/grouping capability. I would argue that this is a good idea, generally. I don't think it's good to restrict a player's options in these terms.

[Prince]

ye pretty much xp outside groups is boring. once i PL the new batch of players up solb will be my home again.

where is this fabled pl u speak of

[Smedy]

i'm never getting use to this exp rate tbh, people tell me "ITS GREAT EXP MAN" i come to the group, we litteraly slay 100 mobs within 10 minutes, i realise i've only gotten 1%...

I think group exp is so retarded slow soloing is a more viable option, and i'm a monk.

Fuck

[Sektor]

Arbonne is right I have a friend that wants to make a Pal. I told him on even bother. He asked me why? I told them that no 1 will group with you because you are a hybrid class. well I'm not well I'm not going to bother playing the game then because I to be a paly, i was always a paly.
There's also no reason experience should be so mind numbling hard. The pop will triple if you get rid of hybrid penalties and add an additional exp bonus

[karsten]

i'm a level 60 ogre shadowknight and now that i've reached the goals that i dreamed of for months of IRL semi-chubby sleep, I can say with certainty that removing the hybrid penalty after i've leveled up with endanger the integrity of the server

[Arclyte]

i'm never getting use to this exp rate tbh, people tell me "ITS GREAT EXP MAN" i come to the group, we litteraly slay 100 mobs within 10 minutes, i realise i've only gotten 1%...

I think group exp is so retarded slow soloing is a more viable option, and i'm a monk.

Fuck

bandaging and soloing DBs as a 32 warrior feels like better exp than grouping

I want to try duo/trio, but I would always feel like a douchebag if I said we were full with only 3 of us standing there

Kunark has been out for much longer than live. It's cool, this server is free and I'm sure it takes a lot of work to make it. I just think people expected velious (and the removal of the ridiculous xp penalty) to be out a long time ago so they can play the hybrid they like without hating the game

Again, I get that recreating a commercial expansion is a big undertaking. I think since it's so overdue, throwing hybrids a bone by giving them the xp boost that should have already happened isn't a crazy suggestion

[Bamzal Sherbet]

they should triple the amount of xp required for each level. screw all this end game bullshit

[Nirgon]

What happened to logging in and saying "yes, this is what it was like in 99, awesome".

Can you really not live with yourself without being max level? Shit's classic, enjoy it.

Plus, I think having instant cast invis (plus broken single pulling with it), a snare, spammable disease cloud threat, fear (sup pets!), feign death and harm touch are worth the xp penalty.

[SamwiseRed]

The way I look at hybrids is that you are leveling 2 toons at once. I mean pallies and rangers get g heal, buffs, loh (basically means someone has to kill u twice) track, ect. That utility should come at a price. I hate to admit it but its true.

[SamwiseRed]

If you don't agree with hybrid penalty roll a warrior.

[Rettii]

I think the argument is more about Hybrid penalty being shared with groups. No one is denying that the utility and benefits of Hybrid deserve a counter balance but in a low pop server nobody wants to group with these hybrids because of the huge group xp need when u invite them.

Here's a quick stat check:

How many Paladins 50+
55+
60

What guild r they in?

Now SK?
Now Ranger?

[heartbrand]

Rangers suck until AA's other than sky bow so that's another reason you don't see any.

[SamwiseRed]

Ye actually I understand what retti is saying. Hybrids can't solo but are shunned by groups :( it's more reason we need more guilds specifically leveling/casual ones

[Loli Pops]

it is disheartening as an SK seeing two dings to your one ding during a few hour xp dungeon session

[Potus]

If we want a classic game then please return the caster book, give people lag/ping so bad it seems they are playing on 56k dial-up, make the loading screens for zones really fucking long to account for computer RAM being way more expensive back then, give human/erud/barb terrible vision at night, go back and buff Necromancer pet/dagger dly, let lifetaps land on monsters 30+ levels above the casters, let necromancers pets be way higher level, let necromancers feign death and farm exp while asleep (their pets could solo mobs even in Guk), let Monks be able to feign death and disarm npcs, let duping of coins work until it was fixed, egg-shaped pumice stones, item-loot on pvp death (was in until I think mid Kunark on one of the team zeks and Rallos?), etc.

The thing is it's a silly argument. There were things that were obviously broken and even Verant admitted it, and hybrid penalties were obviously one of them.

[Dullah]

What happened to logging in and saying "yes, this is what it was like in 99, awesome".

Can you really not live with yourself without being max level? Shit's classic, enjoy it.

Plus, I think having instant cast invis (plus broken single pulling with it), a snare, spammable disease cloud threat, fear (sup pets!), feign death and harm touch are worth the xp penalty.

Warrior are the only real tanks after kunark or pos island 5. They get disciplines and do double the dps, have higher defensive skills and better AC than knights. Those benefits more than outway the spell agro or few utility spells hybrids get.

The developers flat out admitted that their original goal with hybrids were to make them more powerful at the cost of experience, but it just wouldn't work out in the long term. Thus, they removed it.

[heartbrand]

Warrior are the only real tanks after kunark or pos island 5. They get disciplines and do double the dps, have higher defensive skills and better AC than knights. Those benefits more than outway the spell agro or few utility spells hybrids get.

The developers flat out admitted that their original goal with hybrids were to make them more powerful at the cost of experience, but it just wouldn't work out in the long term. Thus, they removed it.

[nilbog]

If we want a classic game then please return the caster book

Will when I can. Client limitation for UI. Intended feature.

, give people lag/ping so bad it seems they are playing on 56k dial-up, make the loading screens for zones really fucking long to account for computer RAM being way more expensive back thenNot intended, but side effect of the times.

, give human/erud/barb terrible vision at night,Will when I can. Client limitation of directX lighting. Intended feature.

go back and buff Necromancer pet/dagger dly,You know this probably was not intended, but if I could make it work 100% from release then be nerfed, I probably would.

let lifetaps land on monsters 30+ levels above the castersLifetap history lesson as per the times. I think this is working properly for Kunark. Should be a thread about a resist mod. Intended by Verant? Probably not.

, let necromancers pets be way higher level-4/0/+4 ? If not, I'm not sure what you mean.

let necromancers feign death and farm exp while asleep (their pets could solo mobs even in Guk)You mean for faction..? Who's stopping ya. And their pets soloed npcs because of the weapon delay. They were tough but not nearly as crazy without weapons. Probably not intended by Verant.

, let Monks be able to feign death and disarm npcsWould like to hear more about this. Was this an intended feature?

, let duping of coins work until it was fixed
Not intended. Seems dumb.

, egg-shaped pumice stones,I'm down with this really. Fuck casters. Intended feature.

item-loot on pvp death (was in until I think mid Kunark on one of the team zeks and Rallos?), etc.I'm very pro item loot as well. But yeah, it wasn't on all of the pvp servers. Intended feature on the servers where it was implemented.

The thing is it's a silly argument. There were things that were obviously broken and even Verant admitted it, and hybrid penalties were obviously one of them.Of all the things you mentioned, hybrid exp penalties were definitely intended as developed.

[SamwiseRed]

you dont think a warrior is jelly of all the abilities hybrids have when hes not raid tanking a mob?

[Prince]

What happened to logging in and saying "yes, this is what it was like in 99, awesome".

Can you really not live with yourself without being max level? Shit's classic, enjoy it.

Plus, I think having instant cast invis (plus broken single pulling with it), a snare, spammable disease cloud threat, fear (sup pets!), feign death and harm touch are worth the xp penalty.

and ranger gets sow

[Loli Pops]

will this server be around when/if i hit 60 2 years from now? not a troll

[Prince]

what i think we shud really be focusing on is how silly it is that ogres and gnomes eat/drink at the same rates

[Potus]

Will when I can. Client limitation for UI. Intended feature.

Why would you want to put that in the game? You might as well prevent people alt-tabbing also. It's another example of something Verant put in the game and realized it was stupid and took it out because it was not fun, added nothing to the game, and no one wanted.


-4/0/+4 ? If not, I'm not sure what you mean.


Necromancer/Mage pets conned higher levels at release. It was one of the first things that got nerfed, because having a level 34 caster summon a level 33-35 pet meant it hit harder and tanked better than any PC tank of that level.


You mean for faction..? Who's stopping ya. And their pets soloed npcs because of the weapon delay. They were tough but not nearly as crazy without weapons. Probably not intended by Verant.

No, Necro pets were insanely strong at release, and lots of necros would feign death and let their pet farm a npc all night while they slept. They got exp for it. I believe they nerfed it so that if a necro feigned death for too long the pet would suicide.

Would like to hear more about this. Was this an intended feature?

It was until people started complaining that monks would feign death and disarm npcs with nice weapons.


Of all the things you mentioned, hybrid exp penalties were definitely intended as developed.

Until they explicitly stated they messed up. Again, it's something that no one enjoys or wants, why have it?

Also while we're discussing stuff from live, pets in general on P99 do not taunt/generate aggro like they should. Is that intended or is it because aggro (like resists) is difficult to code/replicate?

[Nirgon]

Definitely change night vision. A++ change.

[nilbog]

Why would you want to put that in the game? You might as well prevent people alt-tabbing also. It's another example of something Verant put in the game and realized it was stupid and took it out because it was not fun, added nothing to the game, and no one wanted.

Because it existed throughout classic and casters should have it harder than melee. Very rarely will humans choose to nerf themselves. It did add something to the game though..especially for pvp. Casters being forced to see their spellbooks till 35 was a boon to melee. Ducking not interrupting spells was a boon to melee. Once they removed all of this, there was a great disparity between caster->melee pvping especially at lower levels.

Also, I think you might consider what Verant wanted and what paying customers and the financial department deemed 'everyone' wanted can be vastly different.

Until they explicitly stated they messed up. Again, it's something that no one enjoys or wants, why have it?p99 was created to be a museum for classic eq. A place where these mechanics and nuances would exist if nowhere else. On the topic of fun, I have lots of opinions on what would make the game more interesting.. Like for pvp? Teams, yellow text, item loot, language barrier isolated to your team, racial faction losses. Juice it up and give people a reason to group and to pvp against groups. If we only have 1 pvp server, why not add features from all of them.

Also while we're discussing stuff from live, pets in general on P99 do not taunt/generate aggro like they should. Is that intended or is it because aggro (like resists) is difficult to code/replicate?
There's a huge portion of code dealing with aggro and hatelist. Replicating it exactly would be almost impossible.. but even making minor changes is 10 ft pole category. This is Rogean's dept.

[Smedy]

Since nilbog is dropping knowledge in here how about the god damn invis bug, is that a intended feature?

I mean, if it's something project 1999 wants working it's the pve aspect of the game, is it really classic that you can pull anything if you cast invis and make it land on someone before their spell go off?

I can't remember anyone using this strategy on live, but then again i started playing during end of kunark

[nilbog]

Since nilbog is dropping knowledge in here how about the god damn invis bug, is that a intended feature?

I mean, if it's something project 1999 wants working it's the pve aspect of the game, is it really classic that you can pull anything if you cast invis and make it land on someone before their spell go off?

I can't remember anyone using this strategy on live, but then again i started playing during end of kunark

That's actually legit and still functions the same way on eqmac. However, it's something I would be willing to go against, making me a hypocrite for the sake of people having a non-trivial gaming experience. As long as it the end of the day I can disable a rule, and have it working at museum standards :P

For reference, you can refer to post 85 here http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77999&page=9 in the bug report.

[rahmani]

It'll never happen, and although I never play hybrids, the hybrid penalty is one of the worst design flaws in game.

[Erebus]

I'm very pro item loot as well. But yeah, it wasn't on all of the pvp servers. Intended feature on the servers where it was implemented.
.

Item loot is dumb unless it's full inventory (but not equipment) loot.

equipment loot would kill your population. I probably wouldn't play, but I'm the type who'll spend hours camping something. Losing that time just cause some yellow con twink was bored would make me go seek a more rewarding gaming experience.

imo let the guy take my coin and bags full of food, water, and beer. What im wearing is mine.

[Erebus]

Of all the things you mentioned, hybrid exp penalties were definitely intended as developed.

I think a lot of "as intended" dialogue gets thrown around and imo is pretty misled. Many imbalances existed in classic. These imbalances, although products of "as intended," were fixed because the intentions did not function well as implemented.

Hybrid penalties are just one example of that, imo.

You ought to stop trying to claim that certain things function in p1999 because they are "as intended" in classic and just say its because thats how they are intended in p1999. How can anyone presume to grasp what ultimate goal was fully intended, and what implementations, although intended, didn't function in a properly intended manner on classic?

From what I've seen of your posts, nilbog, you're pretty good as saying "because this is how we want it and get over it." That isn't a bad stance to take and isn't at all a dick move. You should stick by that one and not bother with the one that puts a gaping whole in your argument.

[nilbog]

Item loot is dumb unless it's full inventory (but not equipment) loot.

equipment loot would kill your population. I probably wouldn't play, but I'm the type who'll spend hours camping something. Losing that time just cause some yellow con twink was bored would make me go seek a more rewarding gaming experience.

imo let the guy take my coin and bags full of food, water, and beer. What im wearing is mine.



[mostly opinions about item loot]

......

Next argument is.. people will bag their gear before they die. One idea I thought was interesting was any droppable item that wasn't equipped, could be available for loot. This means players wouldn't choose to bag their items, because those are the items players could loot. I've also seen suggestions like, any non-magical bagged item, such as gems or random armor.

The other biggest argument I've seen was, "I don't want to camp an fbss for 10 hours to lose it in a fight". Aside from the custom item loot rulesets which may protect against this, no one is making anyone camp an fbss for 10 hours.

I'd like to think there is some type of item loot ruleset which people could agree with. More features = win.

[/mostly opinions about item loot]

[nilbog]

You ought to stop trying to claim that certain things function in p1999 because they are "as intended" in classic and just say its because thats how they are intended in p1999. How can anyone presume to grasp what ultimate goal was fully intended, and what implementations, although intended, didn't function in a properly intended manner on classic?


Well, on a case by case basis, it's often easy to presume. Coding an entire experience system to perform in a certain manner is presumed intended.

Whereas a bug which duplicates money was likely not purposely coded to perform in that manner.

I suppose I put myself in a position to judge the differences and people can choose whether or not to like my decisions. I certainly can not make everyone happy.

[Dark Team]

On the topic of fun, I have lots of opinions on what would make the game more interesting.. Like for pvp? Teams, yellow text, item loot, language barrier isolated to your team, racial faction losses. Juice it up and give people a reason to group and to pvp against groups.

Why not do this?

[Erebus]

I suppose I put myself in a position to judge the differences and people can choose whether or not to like my decisions. I certainly can not make everyone happy.

you really can't, and no one should expect that of you. For me, I'm just satisfied with an enjoyable experience as close to what classic was as possible. thus far, p1999 has supplied that.

I see arguments that point towards total adherence to classic as being asinine. I think there's a way to produce something that functions as a classic museum and a viable game. so far so good imo. Shit, the pvp here is already second only to one other MMO that I've played.

[Lorraine]

Since nilbog is dropping knowledge in here how about the god damn invis bug, is that a intended feature?

I mean, if it's something project 1999 wants working it's the pve aspect of the game, is it really classic that you can pull anything if you cast invis and make it land on someone before their spell go off?

I can't remember anyone using this strategy on live, but then again i started playing during end of kunark



This strategy was used in live constantly - the only difference is that knowledge like this that gave you an edge back in '99 would be more guarded than the location of Osama Bin Laden.

Sony/Verant gave zero ducks for this. Classic example would be Conquest, one of the most successful EQ guilds (raid progression wise) was insta-banned in World of Warcraft because they pulled MC bosses at zoneline using hunter pets. While you can argue that was clever use of in-game mechanics which the game provided to them (and which they used-abused in EQ constantly and faced no concequences for it) - Blizzard actually gave a fuck about people by-passing in-game content to trivialize encounters. Hence the perma-bans of accounts.

[Tr0llb0rn]

The way xp bonus on this server was implemented aggravates this situation, and as a non-classic mechanisim that aggravates and works against intended gameplay (grouping), it should be changed.

The huge xp bonus given on the individual level should be removed and replaced with grouping xp bonus instead. That will make grouping (and grouping with hybrids) more tolerable.

re: the coment on spellbooks till level 35. XP is so fast and trivial from 1 to 35 (for a solo caster) it would be pointless. Transform the rediculously fast solo xp bonus to a grouping bonus instead (and slow down xp on the people who need it the least...solo casters) and the spellbook-in-the-face till 35 will have its intended classic effect as a rite of passage for casters.

The root of this thread's problem, and many others, lies in the xp bonus in the wrong place. We need to encourage grouping and player interaction. Not casters solo to 60 at super fast unclassic rates and leave everyone else behind.

The flat xp bonus right now is 75% right? And thats ontop of the scaleing 100 to 0 percent bonus from levels 1 to 50? At the very least that flat unclassic 75% xp bonus needs to be deleted and pushed into a scaleing grouping bonus that tops out at 75% bonus for a full group. This will encourage a more classic gaming experience for everyone. (and give a ton more weight to all those other anchilliary classic issues like spellbook while meditateing as a rite of passage)

I strongly believe in the above, and thats by someone who never has to level a melee again, only "solo caster alts". i.e. i'd be hurt the most by this change, but it would help the server the most and foster more of a classic experience all around.

[Rettii]

The way xp bonus on this server was implemented aggravates this situation, and as a non-classic mechanisim that aggravates and works against intended gameplay (grouping), it should be changed.

The huge xp bonus given on the individual level should be removed and replaced with grouping xp bonus instead. That will make grouping (and grouping with hybrids) more tolerable.

re: the coment on spellbooks till level 35. XP is so fast and trivial from 1 to 35 (for a solo caster) it would be pointless. Transform the rediculously fast solo xp bonus to a grouping bonus instead (and slow down xp on the people who need it the least...solo casters) and the spellbook-in-the-face till 35 will have its intended classic effect as a rite of passage for casters.

The root of this thread's problem, and many others, lies in the xp bonus in the wrong place. We need to encourage grouping and player interaction. Not casters solo to 60 at super fast unclassic rates and leave everyone else behind.

The flat xp bonus right now is 75% right? And thats ontop of the scaleing 100 to 0 percent bonus from levels 1 to 50? At the very least that flat unclassic 75% xp bonus needs to be deleted and pushed into a scaleing grouping bonus that tops out at 75% bonus for a full group. This will encourage a more classic gaming experience for everyone. (and give a ton more weight to all those other anchilliary classic issues like spellbook while meditateing as a rite of passage)

I strongly believe in the above, and thats by someone who never has to level a melee again, only "solo caster alts". i.e. i'd be hurt the most by this change, but it would help the server the most and foster more a more classic experience.

stopped reading at bold text - I didn't hear you nerds complaining about xp bonus when Kunark flopped and you guys poopsocked 80hour binges to be first for each level up and race to 60

Now take it out after all of Nihilum is 60 right? Classic Sundawg move, code in favor of guild

Integrity all time low.

[Tomatoking]

this whole thread

=


blablablabla

[Sektor]

stopped reading at bold text - I didn't hear you nerds complaining about xp bonus when Kunark flopped and you guys poopsocked 80hour binges to be first for each level up and race to 60

Now take it out after all of Nihilum is 60 right? Classic Sundawg move, code in favor of guild

Integrity all time low.

Agreed with Rettiwalk, it's not all but a lot of Nilly want changes to benefit solely their guild. This topic isn't about that, it's about removing these hybrid penalties so people will actually group with my dad's shadowknight. (nobody will group with my dad, hes been in his 30's for over a year) Nothing fun about that. XP bonus is something I want but I'd like to focus on one topic at a time and hope Nilbog reads this and see's where we are coming from and talks to Roegan about it and hopefully CONSIDERS, changing it.

[Tomatoking]

penalty is removed when velious is released

till then dont play a hybrid

THE END

[Tr0llb0rn]

Never going to happen Sektor, you are asking for a non-classic change.

What CAN happen , is move the xp bonus from a solo flat xp bonus to a group xp bonus. So then maybe people WILL group with "your dad's SK".

Or just agree with rettiwalk as he solos his druid to 60 with that big solo xp bonus and people avoid your dad's SK like the plauge because there is nothing in it (group xp bonus) for them.

I'm not saying to remove xp bonus, im saying to put it where it will help the community and help those that need it the most (group dependent classes). And thats as a grouping xp bonus.

Current solo flat rate xp bonus only helps Rettiwalk (and my druid alt...)

But w/e. As always these forums get clouded over in a mist of bullshit.

Keep xp bonus as is (solo flat rate based), i'll continue to be one of the few level 60 melees and you all can continue crying why rettiwalk and the other solo casters dont group you. :)

[fiegi 2.5]

Ill never group a hybrid, ever. Well maybe keto

[Tr0llb0rn]

Ill never group a hybrid, ever. Well maybe keto


Selena soloed her way to 50 in Paineel on guards. Flat-rate (non-grouping) xp bonus at work guys.

GG

[SamwiseRed]

id group with your dad sektor, where he at? hybrids can be great in not full groups. i know a warrior, cleric, and I (bard) completely destroyed solb. bard kept pulling constant and downtime 0 so they actually got more xp that way than if the bard wasnt in group. i think if people work hybrids into trios and play off the hybrids stregths (AE have sk fear kite then noone taking dmg and you rarely needs heals freeing up more dps), the xp penalty wouldnt be so obvious considering the power they bring.

shit this post of mine looks ate up and hard to read but you get the point?

[Tomatoking]

yea killing an extra couple mobs really equals out the -60%

hybrids? haha , soon as a hybrid joins my group exp tanks to shit

oh yea hybrids do no dmg too

[Rettii]

Never going to happen Sektor, you are asking for a non-classic change.

What CAN happen , is move the xp bonus from a solo flat xp bonus to a group xp bonus. So then maybe people WILL group with "your dad's SK".

Or just agree with rettiwalk as he solos his druid to 60 with that big solo xp bonus and people avoid your dad's SK like the plauge because there is nothing in it (group xp bonus) for them.

I'm not saying to remove xp bonus, im saying to put it where it will help the community and help those that need it the most (group dependent classes). And thats as a grouping xp bonus.

Current solo flat rate xp bonus only helps Rettiwalk (and my druid alt...)

But w/e. As always these forums get clouded over in a mist of bullshit.

Keep xp bonus as is (solo flat rate based), i'll continue to be one of the few level 60 melees and you all can continue crying why rettiwalk and the other solo casters dont group you. :)

Please keep your false propaganda out of these serious threads. My Druid is level 54 because I refuse to solo. I grouped 50-54 then quit. Since my return I've been playing a necro duo or shaman grouped. I care about server population and server integrity.

[Tr0llb0rn]

I've been playing a necro duo.


I rest my case.

Greedy casters duo to avoid the pet-eating-xp penalty and leave the melees to rot on the vine.

So transparent.

Need xp bonus only in the form of group bonus (the larger the group, the higher the bonus) to avoid the above.

[BelenosGotHeals]

If you don't agree with hybrid penalty roll a warrior.

That being said, I have never/will never refuse to group with someone because of their class choice, as long as they fit with the classes already there. Just play the game

[Dacuk]

My two contributions to this thread:

1) its great to see dev interaction on the PVP forums
2) In a pimp group on my 55 ogre sk, i will get abt 4-5% xp an hour. Given that I maybe spend 2 hrs grouping a night on average, plus xp loss from a few pvp deaths each week, I'm anticipating hitting level 60 around May/June. Well actually no I wont, I will probably switch to a non hybrid in a month or so because this grinding is so god awful painful.

PS.. WTB YT!!

[Rettii]

I rest my case.

Greedy casters duo to avoid the pet-eating-xp penalty and leave the melees to rot on the vine.

So transparent.

Need xp bonus only in the form of group bonus (the larger the group, the higher the bonus) to avoid the above.

I grouped with a paladin and bard in dungeon the last two days.

I also watched Nihilum train a new player to the server who happens to be a paladin at least 4 times in two different zones. Please let me hear your thoughts now badtr0ll.

[Rettii]

Thanks for trying Badtr0ll/Arzak/Sundawg.

[stormlord]

People here should also not forget that when people reach max level the experience penalty no longer applies. This was something that was mentioned in the producers letter:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

Here is my previous post here where I explain what I know:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=827997#post827997

I think that they overestimated the power of the extra abilities given to hybrids. The primary reason I think this is somewhat related to the class population link in my signature. What that shows is that the group-based classes succeed in reaching max level much more than hybrids. So for every instance of a character being created at level 1, if they're a hybrid then they're less likely to reach cap. If you think about it, it's not hard to grasp. The major reason that hybrids were not invited to large groups is not solely because of their experience penalty, but instead because specialized classes could always do their role better than a hybrid. For example a warrior will tank better than a paladin or shadowknight. A enchanter will cc better than a bard. A cleric will heal and buff better than a paladin. A druid will cc and buff better than a ranger. A rogue or wizard or monk will (burst/wizard) dps better than a sk or ranger. And so on.

What good are all those extra powers if it doesn't get you into large groups?

What I think really happened is they increased specialized abilities in the hybrids above what they'd be if they were truly balanced. Specialized abilities are things like tanking or dps or healing or ccing. If they were truly balanced there'd be no need for an experience penalty. Clearly, SOE believed at the time that they were not truly balanced. I think this is because they either increased their specialized abilities or they simply could not accurately measure the value of intangibles like root and snare or feign death or loh. Those intangibles ultimately tended to become redundant in groups and perhaps verant designers did not foresee this as well.

People here really need to level from 1-20 with root/snare and without root/snare. The value of them is hard to measure. They can both be incredibly powerful and at the same time redundant. For example, if you're killing near a zoneline then root/snare aren't nearly as interesting. Whereas, if you're in a big zone like west karana or too far from a zoneline, then root or snare can be a life saver. If you're a big group, chances are more than 1 person has root. More than all this, if you really compare a warrior in the low levels to a ranger you will see clear differences in power, especially in smaller groups or in solo situations. It can be really life saving to have a ranger for root/snare in a 3-person group if the cleric is spending too much mana on healing the tank, for example.

There's also the issue that being able to solo well has its advantages. Soloers tend to have invis and root and/or movement speed buffs and tend to be able to handle being on their own well. So if they can't find a group then they can fill in the downtime with experience. And if they're doing a quest that nobody else wants to help them with then their utility is very helpful. Being able to solo is definitely something that's not free in everquest. Can you recall how many times you were alone as a non-hybrid? Just add up all that time and imagine how much better it would have been with root/snare/heals/dots/invis/sow/etc.

But overall I think that the superiority of specialized classes in groups won and this is probably the primary reason that the penalties went off the cliff and so were removed. In the end, all the utility in the world is meaningless if it's only good in solo or small group situations. This was the lesson. Even if you cut 15% off tanking and considered this overpowering (and thus introduced an experience penalty) and gave them all the utility they want it's still mostly meaningless (and therefore broken) if they're a tank-type class.

EQ1 was a game made for specialized classes coming together in groups. It just wasn't prepared for jack-of-all-trades. The necromancer might be its only real accomplishment in that regard.

Necromancer is probably my favorite class. I just don't like its evil alignment.

[Nirgon]

Yeah, take the bard hybrid penalty off, let's do this

[Tomatoking]

People here should also not forget that when people reach max level the experience penalty no longer applies. This was something that was mentioned in the producers letter:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

Here is my previous post here where I explain what I know:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=827997#post827997

I think that they overestimated the power of the extra abilities given to hybrids. The primary reason I think this is somewhat related to the class population link in my signature. What that shows is that the group-based classes succeed in reaching max level much more than hybrids. So for every instance of a character being created at level 1, if they're a hybrid then they're less likely to reach cap. If you think about it, it's not hard to grasp. The major reason that hybrids were not invited to large groups is not solely because of their experience penalty, but instead because specialized classes could always do their role better than a hybrid. For example a warrior will tank better than a paladin or shadowknight. A enchanter will cc better than a bard. A cleric will heal and buff better than a paladin. A druid will cc and buff better than a ranger. A rogue or wizard or monk will (burst/wizard) dps better than a sk or ranger. And so on.

What good are all those extra powers if it doesn't get you into large groups?

What I think really happened is they increased specialized abilities in the hybrids above what they'd be if they were truly balanced. Specialized abilities are things like tanking or dps or healing or ccing. If they were truly balanced there'd be no need for an experience penalty. Clearly, SOE believed at the time that they were not truly balanced. I think this is because they either increased their specialized abilities or they simply could not accurately measure the value of intangibles like root and snare or feign death or loh. Those intangibles ultimately tended to become redundant in groups and perhaps verant designers did not foresee this as well.

People here really need to level from 1-20 with root/snare and without root/snare. The value of them is hard to measure. They can both be incredibly powerful and at the same time redundant. For example, if you're killing near a zoneline then root/snare aren't nearly as interesting. Whereas, if you're in a big zone like west karana or too far from a zoneline, then root or snare can be a life saver. If you're a big group, chances are more than 1 person has root. More than all this, if you really compare a warrior in the low levels to a ranger you will see clear differences in power, especially in smaller groups or in solo situations. It can be really life saving to have a ranger for root/snare in a 3-person group if the cleric is spending too much mana on healing the tank, for example.

There's also the issue that being able to solo well has its advantages. Soloers tend to have invis and root and/or movement speed buffs and tend to be able to handle being on their own well. So if they can't find a group then they can fill in the downtime with experience. And if they're doing a quest that nobody else wants to help them with then their utility is very helpful. Being able to solo is definitely something that's not free in everquest. Can you recall how many times you were alone as a non-hybrid? Just add up all that time and imagine how much better it would have been with root/snare/heals/dots/invis/sow/etc.

But overall I think that the superiority of specialized classes in groups won and this is probably the primary reason that the penalties went off the cliff and so were removed. In the end, all the utility in the world is meaningless if it's only good in solo or small group situations. This was the lesson.



TLDR

Bla bla

P.S

This message is hidden because Nirgon is on your ignore list.

[Bamzal Sherbet]

id try to make the game so hard that people even stop logging in

also that guys comparing a paladin as a healer hahaha

[Loli Pops]

RIP lulz see you in Velious

[Graahle]

RIP lulz see you in Velious

What level you calling it on bro?

[Prince]

still waiting to hear someone explain which exactly of the rangers amazing hybrid abilities makes up for them taking 10kbc to level

[Loli Pops]

31

[Nirgon]

RIP Lulz griefed off server by classicness

[Prince]

?

[Tomatoking]

RIP lulz see you in Velious

will pick mine up as well as an alt i guess.

although part of me wants to switch to war for tormax 2hs but then again nilly will be sitting at zone line shitting in socks and azrael will probably have 4 people online

[Wisteso]

You mentioned quests and encounters being in the game that shouldn't be according to the timeline. I would like to hear about these because we specifically change things for that reason. See Cargo Clockwork, Initiate Symbols, drowned citizens, etc..etc..etc.


Wrong is irrelevant. Every single eq server from 1999 until 2001 had hybrid experience penalties, so they exist here. In Velious, they go away. Nothing more, nothing less.

Three more for you...

1) Druids having 125 skill in track instead of 20 skill (see this completely ignored thread http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96039)

2) Use of variance for high end raiding

3) Patch day downtime

[Nirgon]

1) track is a mess in the titanium client, glhf to anyone trying to fix those synch issues

2) no variance here

3) the server does go down from time to time... patch days aren't as regular.

Maybe #1 can be fixed but its up there with mage bolts. Still, none of these existing offsets making another non-classic change. SK and pally layhands/HT are incredibly powerful in pvp.

[SamwiseRed]

if sk finds a caster sitting down, one round of auto attack and HT and its over

[Nirgon]

It is exceedingly difficult to discuss ANYTHING on the pvp forums without this happening.

Have you seen the people on here? You want to talk to all of them about implementing CLASSIC EQ!?

You need to talk to a handful of people, doesn't even have to include me. Watch OOC and tell me its rational to address the player base as a group here :P.

I hope this isn't the major reason "we can't help the pvp server". The approach is wrong.

[Wisteso]

You don't need to fix the client. The server just needs to be sending the correct skill value (20 not 125) to the client and then it should be handled. Even if it's broken at 20, that's "authentic" isn't it?

As far as no variance. I dont know how to respond to that since it definitely is being used here. There's quite a few posts about it if you search on it. (edit: here's a big post on it http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98032&highlight=variance )

Live had downtime as well, but patch days served as a mechanic in terms of respawns, resetting camps, etc.

[Nirgon]

I'll score you a point for broken at 20 being a better step towards classic and maybe a quick fixie

Variance is on blue not red

[Aprisle]

fails

[Galacticus]

Hybrid is more powerful so it gets a exp disadvantage. Same with ogres and trolls and iksars.

[Nirgon]

Hybrid is more powerful so it gets a exp disadvantage. Same with ogres and trolls and iksars.

http://www.happyworker.com/files/poster/office-sign-brain.jpg

Whoa... whoa... cant be posting heavy stuff like that around here man..

[Tomatoking]

if sk finds a caster sitting down, one round of auto attack and HT and its over

you definitley didnt play anything high level , if you HT a buffed / geared nilly it does around 200 dmg

and goodluck hitting him with your weapon , as a sk 80% of my swings are miss or less then 50 dmg , while you are eating draught of ice sandwinches every 5 seconds

expect to get spanked , then lose a blue of exp ( 2 hours )

[Nirgon]

Brad is the same guy who lied to the playerbase saying things like "paladin epic is in game" when it actually wasn't, "alchemy is working pals" when it wasn't coded yet, etc. etc. Did you guys not see the debacle that was Vanguard? Did everyone here forget about how awful Luclin was? Do people here really forget all the bugs that existed in classic EQ that Brad simply refused to admit? What about the awful imbalances that existed? Remember how druids and shamans couldn't get groups in classic (where there were long lists for every camp so you couldn't just go lol go solo newb cuz everything was camped) because they had no ability to heal end game? It took until velious to finally give them somewhat of a heal for them to be able to help. The aggro issues with rangers / rogues, rangers being fucking useless, monks being gods until Luclin, hybrid EXP penalty, etc., etc. I guess some people think the class imbalance was an amazing feature of classic EQ and love it, but those of us who played back then remember how awful this was and how lolworthy it was to see the 10000+ post threads with everyone agreeing how awful many of these things were and "The Vision" being mentioned over and over again, only to in almost every single instance have The Vision ultimately be over turned by more competent game designers.

Velious wasn't the pinnacle of EQ because

Honest Abe, I got that far and I won't even stop scrolling if I see another Heartbrand post for 2 weeks.

draught of icecream sandwiches every 5 seconds


Fuck I do like me an ice cream sandwich.

[Prince]

still waiting to hear someone explain which exactly of the rangers amazing hybrid abilities makes up for them taking 10kbc to level

[Tomatoking]

trueshot in outdoor zone is fun , plus windstriker is great

but in all honestly , rangers are shit till 2.0

[Nirgon]

Ranger does good melee damage, has track (imagine if your warrior suddenly had track...), innate invis, snare + flame lick aggro kite, can obtain a ranged tstaff, root for pets, channeling skill for pumices, hide+sneak (like insta invis cant be useful), get ranged crits on arrows with longer than spell range, true shot basically a kedge wand and piece is from the same place/similar mob difficulty + a little bit of side questing+plat, later get triple attack (did I mention melees are good in Velious) and true shot discipline, harmony is a pimp spell...

Original Avon and I had a good laugh watching him beat the snot out of people, even luzlier when he got to making dem arrows and finished his Rain Caller. People were like "lol you hit for 60 dmg with that bow", 20 arrows later and more up their ass on the way out of the zone and they plugged...

WTS l2p lessons

I heard root and snare are "useful" here, and there's allegedly no Harry Potter maps. Hm..

Does this (http://wiki.project1999.org/Firestrike) suck between 2h swings? I heard this (http://wiki.project1999.org/Calefaction) sucks too.


Try snare + bow + flame lick spam to kite mobs with almost any other class, or using them to track and round up mobs in outdoor zones for a quadding wizard. /shrug, I don't vote they suck.

[Tomatoking]

This message is hidden because Nirgon is on your ignore list.

haha u dum

hybrid penalty goes away in velious and since they wont remove it till then , no reason to bump this

[tehruoh]

Ranger does good melee damage, has track (imagine if your warrior suddenly had track...), innate invis, snare + flame lick aggro kite, can obtain a ranged tstaff, root for pets, channeling skill for pumices, hide+sneak (like insta invis cant be useful), get ranged crits on arrows with longer that spell range, true shot basically a kedge wand and piece is from the same place/similar mob difficulty + a little bit of side questing+plat, later get triple attack (did I mention melees are good in Velious) and true shot discipline, harmony is a pimp spell...

Original Avon and I had a good laugh watching he beat the snot out of people, even luzlier when he got to making dem arrows and finished his Rain Caller. People were like "lol you hit for 60 dmg with that bow", 20 arrows later and more up their ass on the way out of the zone and they plugged...

WTS l2p lessons

I heard root and snare are "useful" here, and there's allegedly no Harry Potter maps. Hm..

Does this (http://wiki.project1999.org/Firestrike) suck between 2h swings? I heard this (http://wiki.project1999.org/Calefaction) sucks too.


Try snare + bow + flame lick spam to kite mobs with almost any other class, or using them to track and round up mobs in outdoor zones for a quadding wizard. /shrug, I don't vote they suck.


here ill quote him for you huggies.

dude makes a good point.

enough with the "lol u dumb" comments and learn to read stuff people.

[Nirgon]

He reads all of it dude, I don't care.

Being called dumb by someone who solo'd a gnome cleric up after failing an SK doesn't phase me. Not being able to get into a guild here as a cleric with this population, lol wowzerz.

[Alcoholics Anonymous]

thats like asking 2 mules to shit at the same time

[Heywood]

still waiting to hear someone explain which exactly of the rangers amazing hybrid abilities makes up for them taking 10kbc to level


Because they know you're gonna roll a Ranger, prince.

[SamwiseRed]

He reads all of it dude, I don't care.

Being called dumb by someone who solo'd a gnome cleric up after failing an SK doesn't phase me. Not being able to get into a guild here as a cleric with this population, lol wowzerz.

youll be happy to note that a cleric i never meant to level up is now level 30. all groupage.


no melees left behind, support the cause.

[Prince]

Because they know you're gonna roll a Ranger, prince.

2tru


also i just want to say that anyone advocating "ranger kiting" as a unique and powerful way to xp has clearly never played a ranger before ever

[Nirgon]

With a partner. Selective reading strong around here. Or just effort reading. Or just effort.

[Handpartytowel]

only reason to group on this server is to not kill yourself from circling too long without ever encountering another human being.

[SamwiseRed]

rangers are utility melee like bards. you guys are dumb to think rangers arent awesome.

[Grimmly Fireforge]

^ As someone who plays a Ranger.. I can't help but lol at implying Rangers have even 1/100th the utility of Bards.

[Prince]

rangers are godawful but they are still the best class

[SamwiseRed]

^ As someone who plays a Ranger.. I can't help but lol at implying Rangers have even 1/100th the utility of Bards.

first, noone implied that. its just a fact that rangers are dps melee with utility. they even do some things better than a bard.

for one snare/root a hell of alot more reliable than temporary mezes,snares.

lull is funky as hell on these emus and cannot be trusted whereas harmony is superior in outdoor zones.

can almost track an entire zone.

i can keep going. clearly you do not play a ranger if you think bards have 100x the utility or you are just a bad player.

[Grimmly Fireforge]

Lol calm down. I'm not trying to change the opinion of a kid with a LoTR avatar who obviously only picked the class to pretend he's Legolas.

Once your Ranger surpasses level 24 you will realize the only thing worth comparing with Rangers and Bards is that they tank equally shitty.

[SamwiseRed]

weird on blue ive seen rangers tank all the way up to 52 in groups. once again you are probably just a bad player incapable of figuring out how to play a class that isnt linear.

not to mention our main tank in highkeep in highkeep is a ranger and will be main tank for a long time. you mad?

[Rettii]

you definitley didnt play anything high level , if you HT a buffed / geared nilly it does around 200 dmg

and goodluck hitting him with your weapon , as a sk 80% of my swings are miss or less then 50 dmg , while you are eating draught of ice sandwinches every 5 seconds

expect to get spanked , then lose a blue of exp ( 2 hours )

I hit for 50+ with my lvl 20 sk

who obviously only picked the class to pretend he's Legolas.

Lol'd

[KabanazyTZ]

Leveling on a ranger is incredibly easy contrary to popular belief. People think they are unbearable but 40+ there is a very easy solution and here it is.

Make a ton of arrows.

Contact one of the many rogues/monks/warriors on this server who are not yet 60.

Mem snare, and flame lick.

Aggro kite random dark blue cons out doors while your melee friend loves the shit out of you for letting him dps something without having to worry about dying.

Profit

[Rettii]

Need sniperfire to lvl up asap

[SamwiseRed]

Leveling on a ranger is incredibly easy contrary to popular belief. People think they are unbearable but 40+ there is a very easy solution and here it is.

Make a ton of arrows.

Contact one of the many rogues/monks/warriors on this server who are not yet 60.

Mem snare, and flame lick.

Aggro kite random dark blue cons out doors while your melee friend loves the shit out of you for letting him dps something without having to worry about dying.

Profit

you probably just blew that guys mind. probably didnt think there was any way of leveling outside auto attack and heal.

[Grimmly Fireforge]

weird on blue ive seen rangers tank all the way up to 52 in groups.

The fact is that a Ranger's defensive skills cap like 80 points lower than a Warrior, Pally or SK.

But you're level 24 and pretending to be Legolas while bow kiting a Dune Tarantula for 20 minutes per kill so I will defer to your expertise.

[SamwiseRed]

yet it works. learn to play better.

[Grimmly Fireforge]

I will definitely take tips on how to play EQ from a guy who thinks Rangers have equal utility as Bards.

[Cwall 52.0]

bard worthless class

[KabanazyTZ]

I will definitely take tips on how to play EQ from a guy who thinks Rangers have equal utility as Bards.

Guy clearly never played classic. Don't let the lack of rangers on this server fool you. The use of bards in classic live era and on this box are many. Just because a bard has a more varied range of utility doesn't mean they have more utility.

Their track is garbage and their snare/mez mobs limits their ability to do anything else. Look at it this way, all bards are is utility.

They don't do damage, they can't heal, they can't tank. Rangers beat them in damage, healing, and ability to tank.

The only reason bards are more prevalent on this box is because of the necessity placed on having bard to do high end content (group songs are unfortunately necessary for a lot). Doesn't mean that rangers have less utility or are worse in any way.

[Grimmly Fireforge]

ITT: Samwise screams "LEGOLAS STRIKES AT THEE!" while bow kiting a Orc Centurion for 23 minutes, then rushes to the forum to angrily lash out at how "sick" the utility of the Ranger class is.

[SamwiseRed]

legolas wasnt a ranger bro. point not valid.

also, learn to play better.

[Grimmly Fireforge]

^ So angry he edited that post four times to try to come up with a clever response and still failed, lolz.

[Nirgon]

The little bit of coaching original Avon got from me improved his game immensely and he was already a very strong player.

He didn't have one complaint about his ranger and owned pretty solid.

[Tomatoking]

i like the 5 second casting time 300 dmg nuke , hope that works endgame against the real nukers

[xblade724]

When the hybrid penalty is removed, I'll return to the game. I check these forums quarterly to see when this happens. Hybrids are, in fact, underpowered on a pvp server, anyway until perhaps shadows of luclin.

[Tippett]

your a bard dude, easiest class to level in the game all the way to 60

so uh yeh get the sand out of ur vag

[xblade724]

your a bard dude, easiest class to level in the game all the way to 60

so uh yeh get the sand out of ur vag

you're*

Source - 1st grade English lessons:
http://www.teach-nology.com/worksheets/language_arts/vocab/first/

[Tippett]

less bards level too slow QQ shits retarded

[xblade724]

i dont think u truly understand i dont give a fuck about proper spelling and sentence structure on elf simulator forams

There's a difference between not giving a fuk and simply not knowing ;) Good luck! See you in 3 months.

[Tippett]

yup ur rite man im sure after years of being on forums ive never seen the extremely common you're* point out troll

[SamwiseRed]

since you are a flower ill try to be respectful but i leveled a bard to 42 before the xp bonus and it was the easiest thing ive ever done. since the xp bonus its even easier. its just weird hearing bards complain about hybrid penalties when it should be the others.

[SamwiseRed]

i think hybrid penalty should be removed while in groups. makes no sense to discourage grouping with a hybrid imo. (which i dont but some do)

[Heywood]

you're*

Source - 1st grade English lessons:
http://www.teach-nology.com/worksheets/language_arts/vocab/first/

Actually, contractions are taught in 2nd grade.



L2educmication (http://www.k6edu.com/2ndgrade/language_arts/contractions.html)