Hybrid Experience Penalties

[Ehud]

I'm curious to know what the opinion is on the experience penalty for hybrids. As I understand it, this system was originally introduced as a penalty for hybrids which would be offset by their other abilities. Obviously they took the game in a different direction, which is why the experience penalties were eventually lifted. I'm curious to know what will happen with the penalties on Project 1999.

Will they be left in because they were in Classic? Will they be taken out when we reach a certain level of progression on the server?

With the current population makeup and melee issues, it seems like a good idea to lift the hybrid penalties in an effort to make some of the underplayed classes more popular. Thoughts?

[Jero]

they don't need to be lifted, just fixed , they are still penalized in groups when they should not be, its kind of annoying since my friends zoom ahead of me, but still playable

[entilza]

Actually back in 99 hybrids would slow the entire group exp down because their penalty was shared within the group. This was later removed, but I don't believe the class penalty was ever 'nullified' when grouping.

From what I remember the only case where an exp penalty was nullified was when a pet class grouped. (pet was an exp penalty as well)

IMO, I really don't believe the hybrids should have any penalty.

[Jero]

hybrids didnt slow the group, people would get the same exp, and hybrids pulled from a pool of "bonus" exp as it were , to pull thier exp up to par with everyone else in the group... they got exp that didnt really exsist

[stormlord]

Bottom line, if it takes hybrids longer to learn a new level, then they can't keep up with their friends. That, however, is fairer than letting the entire group suffer the penalty. Perhaps it should have been an option - you could suffer it alone, or you could share the penalty with the group. Perhaps it would be a toggle button in the options window under the general tab: "Hybrid Penalty shared with group: √" I think that would have been better than one universal answer. Not everyone plays with a close friend/relative.

But... the whole problem with this is that maybe hybrids are too powerful??? Too much utility? Why should hybrids even have an exp penalty in the first place??? If the system is balanced then you wouldn't need this.

I don't think the experience penalty is hte best way to handle this, but.... I think that anything is possible, if you work at it. I think it could work, and I'm going to go into this thinking that. This is an eq classic server, so I'll accept it and act like this is the way it always was. If you go about it from that frame of mind, things are a lot easier and fun. If you accept something, it usually works out and new solutions to old problems present themselves that you never would have discovered had you never accepted it. If you refuse to accept it, you're just welcoming problems from all directions to come and, in time, legitimize/embolden your rejection of it.

[mugwy44]

with the ZEM being fixed i dont think its much of an issue, i made it to 50 as a pally , yes it took me a long time, but hey its that much more rewarding!

[Jero]

maybe i didnt explain it correctly .. groups didnt suffer a penalty from hybrids in thier group ... lets say a mob has 600 exp total , 6 people in group 1 of them hybrids , everyone gets 100 exp except the hybrid gets 140 exp

groups were not penalized from hybrids, hybrids got exp that wasnt actually there

does that make more sense on how it was ?

[Dolalin]

In the very beginning, yea, groups actually did suffer an xp penalty from grouping hybrids. That was eventually changed. I remember Brad coming onto Whineplay to defend it, actually.

[Wildir]

I remember it being that way too, I remember groups deciding if we wanted a hybrid to fill the last spot or not. I know its sad but I do remember that discussion.

Wildir

[Halladar]

It just seems self evident to me there should not be a hybrid xp penalty.

What are you guys looking at though? I mean why exactly do you think one is justified?

Rangers and sk's have some features that negate some frustrating parts of the game. But pallies?

I just don't get it. I really don't.

[Wenai]

I just don't get it. I really don't.
It was a mechanic that was part of the game for a very long time. The original idea was that they had the benefits of being both a melee and a spell caster. Even though they don't really excel in either field, that is the way it was done. This is something that we have carried over. to Stay.

[Halladar]

What exactly do you dev types want talked about here?

I doubt I'll post much, but if I do I confine it to what you want.

So exactly what kind of feedback are you looking for?

You don't want to hear about class balance, experience penalties, bind locations, favoritism, sol ro quests, planes, mayong mistmoore, melee problems, etc.

So what are you guys looking for? I'm not good at it but I could write some ghoulbane porn.

[Wildir]

I think what people are saying is, they dont mind that it is there, but it deffinately is not the way it was on live.
I know this because I had a paladin friend that played with me every night, we grouped exclusively together, wether in groups or just us two together.
we never had a problem with him falling behind by multiple levels even at higher levels, and now it only takes a few levels to get out of sync and that is at low levels.
there is something wrong with the way this works in groups atm, I can see it being there for small groups/solo players, but maybe something needs tweeked in full groups.
basically, friends are outleveling their paladins/ranger friends and therefore causing problems finding groups.

I just want to say, I love this server and am happy the way it is, just want to see fine tuning to make it even better, please keep up the good work.

Wildir

[Wenai]

Classes weren't balanced in EQ. Period.

Melees couldn't bind outside of cities (and select locations like NK gypsies). Period.

Hybrids, Monks, Pure Casters, Large races all have penalties associated with them. Period.

Temple of Solusek Ro was added after Rubicite, Manastones, Guise etc was removed. Period.

Melee problems need source work. I can't do source work. Pretty well no one writes in C++. Ladoth is the person who has done the majority of the major source issues and he isn't available to help us right now. How many times can we repeat this?

Mayong Mistmoore has been discussed to death.

Planes have been discussed to death.

We address your issues the best that we can. We can only discuss issues such as planes/mayong for so long before we get tired of repeating ourselves.

[Wonton]

Temple of Solusek Ro was added after Rubicite, Manastones, Guise etc was removed. Period.

This is kinda off topic but, will the server get a heads up when Sol ro is about to be added? Unless you guys aren't allowed to say or don't know either. Instead of, "Server will be coming down in 15 minutes for a brief patch. Downtime is an estimated 5 minutes."

[Enig]

Classes weren't balanced in EQ. Period.

Melees couldn't bind outside of cities (and select locations like NK gypsies). Period.

Hybrids, Monks, Pure Casters, Large races all have penalties associated with them. Period.

Temple of Solusek Ro was added after Rubicite, Manastones, Guise etc was removed. Period.

Melee problems need source work. I can't do source work. Pretty well no one writes in C++. Ladoth is the person who has done the majority of the major source issues and he isn't available to help us right now. How many times can we repeat this?

Mayong Mistmoore has been discussed to death.

Planes have been discussed to death.

We address your issues the best that we can. We can only discuss issues such as planes/mayong for so long before we get tired of repeating ourselves.

Just for my curiosity... could you give us percentages on the exp penalties? Would solve many discussions in group chats ;)

[President]

Just for my curiosity... could you give us percentages on the exp penalties? Would solve many discussions in group chats ;)

I think in the last few weeks of reading this forum I've seen the penalties posted 20+ times. Look for them and youll find them.

[Ehud]

It was a mechanic that was part of the game for a very long time. The original idea was that they had the benefits of being both a melee and a spell caster. Even though they don't really excel in either field, that is the way it was done. This is something that we have carried over. to Stay.

Fair enough. Gonna have to tweak my SK pretty well then!

[Enig]

I think in the last few weeks of reading this forum I've seen the penalties posted 20+ times. Look for them and youll find them.

The search function for "exp penalty" "experience penalty" "experience penalties" or "exp penalties" returned 0 results (after reading through 15 different threads) that were actually answered by a dev. Maybe your googlefoo is stronger than mine... if so, could you please enlighten the ignorant?

[Bubbles]

It just seems self evident to me there should not be a hybrid xp penalty.

What are you guys looking at though? I mean why exactly do you think one is justified?

Rangers and sk's have some features that negate some frustrating parts of the game. But pallies?

I just don't get it. I really don't.

The search function for "exp penalty" "experience penalty" "experience penalties" or "exp penalties" returned 0 results (after reading through 15 different threads) that were actually answered by a dev. Maybe your googlefoo is stronger than mine... if so, could you please enlighten the ignorant?

Well, back when ppl cared about recreating the classic experience (this was ages ago, obv) it was decided that the hybrid XP penalty would be in to stay. And it was. And it still is.

Mind you, this was decided long enough ago that people actually believed that melee would not only be worthwhile, but would be viable enough to warrant anything other than a XP bonus and a complimentry 49DruidBot mercenary.

As for the paladin argument, Pallys can root/Crowd Control, Multiple Stuns, Have lull to pull with, have the strongest heals/buffs of *any* hybrid, can wear plate, double attack, LayOnHands (by leaps and bounds more useful than Harm Touch at later levels) and have taunt spells surpassed only by Shadow Knights.

If there's a class you really wanna rant about, it's the poor gimped bards who basically pay 40% XP to run really fast, sing a heal song, sing a mana song, wear plate armor they don't have the STR to wear, and wield a staff of writhing. Oh, they can also pull as well as Paladins.

But yeah, that XP penalty is pretty nasty, in the hours I've spent /auc'n on a paladin armor mule geared with full fine steel and a Man O War (19/41 Hammer) I haven't yet dinged to 3. It makes me chuckle.

[Goobles]

To clarify exp penalties..

In Dungeons and Dragons, a 'multiclass' is possible, but at a penalty. The complete ruling is at the following link: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Multiclass_Characters

The brief overview:
Levels are based on exp gained. Once a character reaches ECL (effective character level), he may choose to increase his class level to 2, or multi class level (say rogue/wizard) to 1rogue/1wizard. He would gain experience at a level 2 character, but the only reason a rogue might take a class in wizard is to read scrolls and learn level 0 wizard spells. He will gain exp as a level 2 character in the case.

How this applies to EQ: Every MMoRPG is based off of D&D. Classes, races, etc... you get bonuses, and have negatives based on your race. Your class is pretty much your profession. Using the explanation above - instead of levelling each of your class levels individually, EQ has the following multiclasses: Paladin (Cleric/Warrior), Shadowknight (Necro/Warrior), Ranger (Druid/Warrior). It imposes an exp penalty to make up for levelling each class individually, and it's faster than the penalty of levelling two classes to the same level in D&D.

[Enig]

Actually, I was just looking for the percentages as they apply to this server. Like what % exp penalty does a bard have? Or what about and ogre sk vs a troll sk? Just curious :)

[Casezilla]

Bottom line, if it takes hybrids longer to learn a new level, then they can't keep up with their friends. That, however, is fairer than letting the entire group suffer the penalty.
You're missing the point here. It isn't about fairness, it is about being true to EQ in 1999. No one knows for sure why SoE added class penalties. Perhaps they had originally planned that hybrids would be more powerful at high levels than other classes, who knows. In the end, this ended up not being the case, and everyone, including SoE, eventually realized that the penalties were unfair.

The problem with the hybrid XP penalty on this server is it is NOT implemented like it was in actual EQ. As others have mentioned, a hybrid would level at the same speed as others when grouped. Whether this was by sharing the penalty with group members (as the '01 producer's letter seems to suggest) or by giving hybrids bonus XP when grouped (as someone suggested in the thread) is another question.

Because of this, the "because that's how it was in classic" argument for XP penalties on this server is thrown out the window, and instead we're left with a horrible, non-classic game design decision that is obviously unfair. The penalties should either be fixed to function as they did during classic, or removed.

It can be argued that the penalties in their current form are no more closer to classic than having no penalties.

Classic EQ:
Solo: Hybrids leveled slower than a non-hybrid soloer
Grouped: Hybrids leveled at the same speed as others in their group

Project 1999, current approach:
Solo: Hybrids level slower than a non-hybrid soloer (LIKE classic)
Grouped: Hybrids level slower than the non-hybrids in their group (NOT LIKE classic)

Project 1999, no penalties:
Solo: Hybrids level at the same speed as non-hybrid soloers (NOT LIKE classic)
Grouped: Hybrids level at the same speed as non-hybrids in their group (LIKE classic)

I would argue that being able to level at the same speed as others in your group is MUCH more important to the integrity of this server than making hybrids level slower while soloing (most hybrids aren't soloing much anyway). In classic, a group of friends could create new chars of any class and level up together without having to worry about anyone outpacing anyone else (maybe Wars and Rogues would slightly outpace others). Currently on P1999, a group like this is not feasible unless you make sure everyone has similar or equal penalties (which is a ridiculous thing to have to consider when forming such a group).

I am not against having classic XP penalties on this server. However, non-classic penalties that are not even objectively closer to a classic experience than having no penalties at all is all kinds of ridiculous.

[Halladar]

look here is a letter from 2001:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

they made some changes to experience in this one, but you can extract some stuff from it.

From what I can gather on live before this letter at least, hybrids had a 40% penalty, monks 20%, and int caster 10%. rogues and warriors had an experience bonus. The letter didn't state what the class bonus for rogues and warriors was, but it was either 5% or 10%.

Okay, hybrids 40%, monks 20%, int caster 10%. No other class had a penalty, and rogues and warriors had a bonus. Oh yeah, bards counted as a hybrid.

Now as far as races go. Big races had a penalty. Trolls had the worst. Then ogres. Then barbs. I'm not sure what the troll penalty was but it was like 10 or 20% or something. I know barbs were 5% and I think ogres were as well.

No other original race had a penalty, though I might add that halflings got the xp bonus of 5% that was supposed to go to humans. And they have kept it for all of live. They said it was some kind of error in database coding way back and it would be too "disruptive" to fix it. Although they never stated in anyway that the human xp bonus hinted at in their game info was really going to halflings, until the show eq people found it.

Now as far as I know this game is supposed to be like eq 1999.

Exactly.

Your guess is as good as mine, but if they actually gave halflings the xp bonus that was supposed to go to humans, I am going to rofl.

It'd be like a cargo cult.

[Halladar]

Oh yeah, just wanted to add I'm not sure how the xp penalties stacked. Like were they additive or multiplicative.

For example sk's have 40% penalty. Say trolls have a 20% penalty.

Does a troll sk have a 40 + 20 = 60% penalty?

Or is it 1.0*1.4*1.2?

I got no idea on that. For some reason I thought it was additive.

But there are a lot of experienced players here and someone should know this stuff better than I do.

[Casezilla]

To clarify exp penalties..

In Dungeons and Dragons, a 'multiclass' is possible, but at a penalty. The complete ruling is at the following link: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Multiclass_Characters

The brief overview:
Levels are based on exp gained. Once a character reaches ECL (effective character level), he may choose to increase his class level to 2, or multi class level (say rogue/wizard) to 1rogue/1wizard. He would gain experience at a level 2 character, but the only reason a rogue might take a class in wizard is to read scrolls and learn level 0 wizard spells. He will gain exp as a level 2 character in the case.

How this applies to EQ: Every MMoRPG is based off of D&D. Classes, races, etc... you get bonuses, and have negatives based on your race. Your class is pretty much your profession. Using the explanation above - instead of levelling each of your class levels individually, EQ has the following multiclasses: Paladin (Cleric/Warrior), Shadowknight (Necro/Warrior), Ranger (Druid/Warrior). It imposes an exp penalty to make up for levelling each class individually, and it's faster than the penalty of levelling two classes to the same level in D&D.
And what classes is a Bard multiclassing :rolleyes:? And what about a monk's penalty, or an INT caster's penalty. How can you relate those to D&D?

The hybrids in EQ are not multiclasses. They have class abilities that define them as a unique class. They also do not receive every spell or ability that their supposed parent classes receive. If a Paladin, for example, was a true War/Cleric multiclass, taking some percentage of levels as a warrior and some as a cleric, a level 50 paladin would be able to gate, bind, dual wield, etc.

On top of that, even in D&D at least Paladins, Rangers and Bards have been distinct classes for a long time. No cleric/warrior multiclassing required.