Necro/Mage Duo [Archive]

Stoggieman

12-06-2012, 11:41 AM

Ephirith

12-06-2012, 11:57 AM

Both of those options are very strong duos and you will move along pretty smoothly.

One thing that's nice about necro/mage is this duo requires no gear investment to be effective. Since you two are new that's pretty sweet,

The shaman and monk are not only one of the best duos in the game, but together you form the core of an effective group for almost anything. Monks are exceptional tanks/dps, and shamans are exceptional healers if you take slow into account. If you ever get tired of duoing or want to grab more people to do something fun, it will be much easier for a shaman and monk to find something compatible.

Ultimately I would suggest you simply pick what you feel like you would enjoy, even if that means trekking your level 1 across the world to share that first kill.

Just a little tip if one of you decides to play the shaman: use the inner fire spell as a heal, it is incredibly efficient. With inner fire you're the best healer, even better than clerics, until 14 or so. If you sit down and only stand to cast inner fire between mana ticks, you can heal almost indefinitely at noob levels.

phobus

12-06-2012, 12:40 PM

Ok, I'm starting up next week with my old friend from Rodcet Nife server years ago. We both have had high level toons, him, necro, ranger, sk, and myself wizard, monk... I've enjoyed it all, and really enjoyed being an iksar. That being said, looking to level from first kill all the way up together, and were hoping to do so in a reasonable way. I think from what I've gathered we're down to two main options we'd like to pursue....

Him iksar sham/ me iksar monk
(yes I'd be rolling another one but hey it's a strong combo for the era)
Him DE Mage / me DE Necro

Of the two, I think Shaman/Monk is going to be stronger come Velious. Both are pretty strong now, though. One thing you may want to consider is that if one of you plays a melee class, you won't be able to easily bind/gate when and where you please, so some dungeons will be a little less appealing. For example, Howling Stones is awesome for a Monk/Shaman duo, but without a way to get the Monk out it's a non-starter. The Worker Sledgemallet (http://wiki.project1999.org/Worker_Sledgemallet) can be quested and works at level 50, but as an Iksar it'll require the use of someone's Puppet Strings.

we've kicked around a few others but he's unwilling to go Bard/Bard for serious dot kiting/swarm kiting action because he also refuses to twist... And while we both like the idea of porting, he doesn't want to roll a druid or wizzy, and i'm not so keen on the wizard again, though most of my experience there was solo and thus boring...

Porting is not that important a factor in choosing a class for me. It's usually not that hard to commission one of the thousands of Druids on this server for a port/evac when you need it.

Also, although you only asked about two specific combos, you could switch the classes around a little and end up with some other great duos:

Shaman/Mage
Shaman/Necro

Lots of good choices here for you, it's hard to go wrong. Welcome, and enjoy! :)

Lorraine

12-06-2012, 01:49 PM

The sham/monk duo will probably come on top in the long run (imo), but still it's going to take a while until it takes off. The fact that it will be your first chars here, and both being Iksars will limit your vendor/banking options so to speak. Also, melee are a lot more gear dependent than the mage/necro combo.

Then again, you already know these things, so it's really upto you, and what you want to accomplish. Will you level slowly and take your time, or you want to blow through levels asap? Are you going to look into heavy raiding as well?

Still, if I were you, I'd take some time and think about the de cleric / de enchanter duo too. It might struggle a bit early/mid levels, but after a while it just turbo-boosts into stardome.

Slave

12-06-2012, 01:52 PM

I would counsel to go the route of the Iksar Necromancer if Iksars are your thing. They are a powerful race for the class, and it's the work of an hour or two max to get your characters together.

Elements

12-06-2012, 02:43 PM

I think most people here will agree that monk/shaman will end up being the more powerful duo in the end of the two you are considering. The issue of not being able to gate is irrelavent once you both get WC gate caps and the shaman can just help the monk recharge every use. Monk shaman can also level with almost no gear investment but weapons and a haste item for the monk will speed things up tremendously.

Another thing to consider is your end game goals. Although monk and shaman are extremely powerful solo and duo for that exact reason the server is flooded with them , especially bad ones. At this point in the game I encounter far fewer mages and necros than monks and shamans. You practically cant go anywhere without seeing monks and shamans. Anything you play will be viable on raids though you may have an easier time finding a raiding guild as necro/mage than you will as monk/shaman.

As someone stated earlier cleric/enchanter is also something to consider although I see you arent interested in other combos. Not only would this combo likely have the easiest time finding a raid guild together, you also have two of the three classes of the EQ trinity (cleric, enchanter, warrior) for forming groups and argueably be the strongest duo of the three listed depending on what targets you plan on hitting.

LizardNecro

12-06-2012, 02:47 PM

As a mage, I love duoing with necros, and necros love duoing with me. Very fun and very powerful. Highly recommend.

Stoggieman

12-06-2012, 03:25 PM

Thanks for all the help here. I'm after hearing this cleric/enchanter duo twice, my interest is piqued. I know that later on, you have those two you have the basis for a strong group. Especially with players who know how to play. Aside from Insta group, I'm sure there are other benefits to this duo.

Right now I'd have to say so I don't have to reroll a monk (that will definitely be an alt however) I think we'd lean towards necro/mage. But Might have to see if he'd be interested in the ench/cleric.

-Catherin-

12-06-2012, 03:39 PM

I would argue that the ench/clr duo is the most powerful and safest in the game.

Chanter has crowd control, slow, haste, and charm.
Cleric has buffs and heals

The chanter charms a pet, gives it two weapons and hastes it and just tears through mobs, the cleric just needs to CH the pet occasionally, and most importantly help the chanter stay alive and recharm during charm breaks.

The only combo i would argue that could be better is x2 ench. though its a bit more risky without the heals

obviously play what you WANT to play though. you wont last unless you do something you enjoy

Splorf22

12-06-2012, 03:44 PM

100% agree with Catherin with the small exception that for killing really high level stuff (>55) I think shm/enc is better, mainly because getting mobs slowed at that level is so important, and malo + two players chaining slow really helps.

Mage/Necro is ridiculously OP 1-50 because of the insane strength of the classic pets. The Kunark level pets are much more balanced.

SupaflyIRL

12-06-2012, 03:57 PM

Necro/Sham or Necro/Mage is really good for anyone to play and will be fun to level pretty much anywhere. Cleric/Ench can get a group anywhere, but will level slower in a full group than a Necro/Sham or Necro/Mage duo. Cler/Ench duo can't really be played by a pair of retards and require at the very least a skilled enchanter and a cleric who isn't falling asleep. If the enchanter is bad, make sure the cleric has his epic.

e: Necro/Sham will be easier to LFG as a pair than Necro/Mage, Cler/Ench is more LFTank than LFGroup if the enchanter is not good enough for charm killing.

Elements

12-06-2012, 04:34 PM

If you are seriously considering the cleric/chanter duo, know that with hasted charmed pets your kill rate will be much much faster than any other duo in the game. Also you can add pretty much any class to your duo and make it work, doesnt have to be a tank though your kill rate will be so high with charm that dot classes would probably be unatractive if maximizing your xp is your goal.

Further to this if you are seriously considering a charm based duo druid/chanter has many advantages, snare and ports primarily, as does shaman/chanter.

HippoNipple

12-06-2012, 06:16 PM

Enchanter/Cleric is going to be best for clearing the toughest camps. If you are doing easier things Enchanter/Shaman would be better in my opinion.

Quantity of decent tough pulls, fast exp, still able to do really hard camps = enchanter/shaman

Toughest camps possible = Enchanter/Cleric

Splorf22

12-06-2012, 06:54 PM

Naerron

12-06-2012, 07:51 PM

I vote mage/necro for a few reasons. Not all of them are meant to directly contras the shammy/monk combo tho.
1) Much easier to start from scratch with, mostly because they are much easier to gear and offer less downtime
2) Can tackle higher lvl mobs. A) becuase you can bounce pets, and also don't have to worry about the tank dieing. B) Have more burn potential, C) Fear kiting on overcon blues like fog golems vs Haze golem in CoM, both are blue at 43-46 but the fog golem is much harder to tackle.
3) A necro imo can pull eaiser with dots and CoS + FD than a monk. You use less manna on two single pulls than 1 2 mob pull.
4) Necros get snare spells which has become very important especially in old world dungeons
5) You can both bind and gate, making escaping a train and coordination easier. Say one of u is in EC selling shit and the other logs on to xp, but is at some camp u guys were doing, u can both just gate to your XP spot and start.
7) are less mages/necros on server than monks/shammys meaning lower gear prices and easier to obtain planar armor/raid loots and epic MQs.
8) Necros can rez and FD, and corpse summon which make it a great CR class
9) Necro can heal very effectively with shadowbond and dispell
10) Fear kiting will get you both to 60 from paw to KC easily.
11) Less downtime imo. THis could be debatable though, but if anyone was around during classic u remember that a full group of non twinks was needed to keep the XP flowing, and if u took a traditional style group and often needed 2 healers to do that. That's why in classic if u remember there were tons of mage only groups, and would let the necros in if no one could find another mage.
12) Once u can coth the mage becomes much more powerful with getting to camps, a necro can DA in and train it all away, mage coths u back and ur good to go.
13) this is kind of a culmination of points but i honestly believe it is a way better cash farming duo, which is important if it's your first char. Necros espeically shine in HS.
14) The mage/necro duo open up better XP choices. Example. SolA u NEED a snarer to do that camp. SolA has one of the highest ZEMs and is vastly underused these days. It has some good drops too, especially for INT casters. (Yes i know shammys canb root, but not taking dmg for 20% of the mob is very nice) Also zones like kedge, where u both can cast or sumnmon EB items and have a good way to pull and lose roamer agro via coth.
15) you never have to buy food/water, seems silly but really helps when saving for spells during those first lvls where ur scraping buy for spells you need.

Some other things i saw posted which i i feel the need to correct:
1) Mages get the malo debuff spell line

LizardNecro

12-06-2012, 08:02 PM

7) are less mages/necros on server than monks/shammys meaning lower gear prices and easier to obtain planar armor/raid loots and epic MQs.

Right, easier epic MQs.

That's why you see so few shammys and monks with epics, but every mage and necro is running around with an epic. Because the epic MQ is so easy. I mean, I have a hard time getting any guilds to pay attention when Inny is up, because really, nobody cares. I think Inny was left up for three weeks once. Once the MQ price for an Inny staff came down to 500p, people stopped even trying to farm it. Just so common.

Yep, good old easy mage epic MQ. Yesirree, most common epic in the game. Not like those ultra rare shammy/monk epics.

Slave

12-06-2012, 08:24 PM

Right, easier epic MQs.

That's why you see so few shammys and monks with epics, but every mage and necro is running around with an epic. Because the epic MQ is so easy. I mean, I have a hard time getting any guilds to pay attention when Inny is up, because really, nobody cares. I think Inny was left up for three weeks once. Once the MQ price for an Inny staff came down to 500p, people stopped even trying to farm it. Just so common.

Yep, good old easy mage epic MQ. Yesirree, most common epic in the game. Not like those ultra rare shammy/monk epics.

From the words he's using, it may seem like he is agreeing with the guy but in actuality, this is a form of humor known as sarcasm.

pasi

12-06-2012, 09:38 PM

Enc/Shaman is better than Enc/Cler at 60.

Lexical

12-06-2012, 10:00 PM

ench/sham is the best duo in my opinion. Malaise + Tash stacking makes charming high cons way too easy as well as landing your spells.

Grahm

12-06-2012, 11:34 PM

From the words he's using, it may seem like he is agreeing with the guy but in actuality, this is a form of humor known as sarcasm.

This made me lol for some reason

Vladesch

12-06-2012, 11:45 PM

The chanter charms a pet, gives it two weapons and hastes it and just tears through mobs, the cleric just needs to CH the pet occasionally, and most importantly help the chanter stay alive and recharm during charm breaks.

Druid enchanter can do this better. Druid has plenty of healing for the pet especially with mind buff, plus you have snare, sow and ports.

Lexical

12-07-2012, 12:12 AM

Honestly, the only thing I can see the Druid/Enchanter combo bringing to the table that makes it something to consider is the fact you can port. Shaman and Enchanter will be better in any fight due to shamans' slow, MR debuffs, and stellar buffs. The only thing I can find comparable would be monk and shaman but that would be more gear dependent than enchanter/shaman and it is arguably worse.

And can someone please explain to me the purpose of the cleric/enchanter combo? You shouldn't need CH if the shaman is slowing and the enchanter is CCing properly.

Splorf22

12-07-2012, 12:17 AM

Druid enchanter can do this better. Druid has plenty of healing for the pet especially with mind buff, plus you have snare, sow and ports.

CH on an 8k hp pet is 20 hp/mana. Druids can't do that. Personally I think Druids are a very underrated class; they are great at low levels and decent at high levels. But anything that Druid/Enc can duo, Enc/Enc, Enc/Clr, Enc/Shm/ and Enc/Mag can do better.

mazukon

12-07-2012, 12:17 AM

And can someone please explain to me the purpose of the cleric/enchanter combo? You shouldn't need CH if the shaman is slowing and the enchanter is CCing properly.

Resists don't descriminate :)

Lexical

12-07-2012, 12:24 AM

Resists don't descriminate :)

Shaman and enchanter can stack MR debuffs so slow should land on most mobs and honestly just letting the charm pet die is a perfectly valid option since the shaman pet can tank for a bit while the enchanter brings back another.

A1551

12-07-2012, 01:09 AM

Druid enchanter can do this better. Druid has plenty of healing for the pet especially with mind buff, plus you have snare, sow and ports.

Druid and Enchanter are plenty powerful but druid is probably the least desirable partner for a chanter of the three (shaman/cleric/druid). Complete heal is pretty ridiculous on charmed mobs -- you basically have an entire group of functionality in 2 people, the pet tanks and does massive dps with an incredibly deep HP pool, chanter can slow/cc/stun and pull very well, haste pet, clarity, etc. Cleric gives you the CH and massive HP buffs and quick heals needed to survive charm breaks (plus occasional rezzes). You do also have the core of a great group as chanter/cleric but said group is entirely unnecessary to level up if you guys just want to duo. Shaman chanter is also amazing but others have discussed why.

As to druid / chanter it has some advantages and is undoubtedly powerful. Druid snare on pet makes it much easier to avoid damage on breaks (a big positive). Ports on tap are certainly convenient (but I'd rather have rez). Sow is a non issue once you get jboots but very nice before that. Druids can also charm animals which can be a very powerful combination in certain zones, and druid roots are amazing which can really help when things go south. The downside is druid heals are entirely inadequate for healing pets (superior heal barely moves my pets health bar, a big minus) and they can't slow to make up for it, druid HP buffs are fairly limited, druid dps is almost irrelevant in comparison to a pet, etc. Bottom line besides ports and snare (and maybe animal charming) they may as well be a shaman without the shamans most powerful abilities.

As to the original poster -- the cleric/chanter or necro/mage really don't need gear to excel. The chanter just needs +cha gear for charming / lulling etc and for the most part it is fairly inexpensive, certainly something a new player to the server could gear themselves with while leveling up. At least personally I'd be reticent to re-level the character I played on live -- half the fun of EQ is mastering a new class. A mage and a necro are gonna be a fun duo -- probably more balanced in terms of the fun for each player. The cleric in a cleric / chanter duo might find things a little boring (the chanter will be doing much of the work), but for a shaman / chanter duo this wouldn't be the case as the shamans also going to have to be pretty active to excel.

Finally, keep in mind thanks to a chanters CC and pulling abilities a chanter/(any healer) duo will basically be able to go anywhere and do anything.

-Propo Fol

Splorf22

12-07-2012, 01:11 AM

Resists don't descriminate :)

Check the solo artist thread for Svenn and I showing what a 60 shm/60 enc can do. In comparison a 60 enc/60 clr are going to have a lot more trouble on say the protector because if charm breaks you are just utterly screwed.

A1551

12-07-2012, 01:51 AM

And can someone please explain to me the purpose of the cleric/enchanter combo? You shouldn't need CH if the shaman is slowing and the enchanter is CCing properly.

As Splorf said its all about CH. I love either duo but probably prefer the cleric for leveling (ie playing long periods of time just killing stuff as fast as possible). Would take either happily for trying to kill hard stuff, although I certainly agree the shaman is the most ideal choice at that point. Once you find that perfect pet in the sweet spot for your level and toss him weapons / haste that's basically it for the night, no more finding the best pet, no worry about running outta weapons, and its also a lot harder to die when you've got symbol and hero on all the time. Pocket rezzes are nice, too. Realistically if youre grinding out XP for 8 hours or whatever you're probably going to have a few perfect shitstorms of bad luck where yur gonna be happy to have that +1100 hp from cleric buffs and a pet whos health level is essentially irrelevant all night long, or worst case the immediate rez.

Another obvious reason why the cleric/ench combo is attractive, referring to your original question, is that just because a shaman may be a more ideal duo partner for a chanter, doesn't mean that there is one around to duo 100% of the time! Bottom line there are a lot of clerics with CH around, I seem to recall from the recent population tracking thread that high level clerics are more than twice as common vs shamans.

-Propo Fol

Lexical

12-07-2012, 02:30 AM

As Splorf said its all about CH. I love either duo but probably prefer the cleric for leveling (ie playing long periods of time just killing stuff as fast as possible). Would take either happily for trying to kill hard stuff, although I certainly agree the shaman is the most ideal choice at that point. Once you find that perfect pet in the sweet spot for your level and toss him weapons / haste that's basically it for the night, no more finding the best pet, no worry about running outta weapons, and its also a lot harder to die when you've got symbol and hero on all the time. Pocket rezzes are nice, too. Realistically if youre grinding out XP for 8 hours or whatever you're probably going to have a few perfect shitstorms of bad luck where yur gonna be happy to have that +1100 hp from cleric buffs and a pet whos health level is essentially irrelevant all night long, or worst case the immediate rez.

Another obvious reason why the cleric/ench combo is attractive, referring to your original question, is that just because a shaman may be a more ideal duo partner for a chanter, doesn't mean that there is one around to duo 100% of the time! Bottom line there are a lot of clerics with CH around, I seem to recall from the recent population tracking thread that high level clerics are more than twice as common vs shamans.

-Propo Fol

What you described seems like a much slower albeit safer XP stream then what I would do. I have little interest in keeping a charmed pet and prefer just eating it when it is low health. Unless of course you are rooting both mobs and then breaking charm before one of them dies to avoid the heavy pet XP penalty, but in that case the cleric is mostly useless.

The mala spell line is invaluable to charming mobs since it not only drastically increases the level of the mobs you can charm, it also provides a very strong safety net. Also, if you are charm farming properly, the server would have to take a very big shit(pardon my language) on you for the enchanter/shaman duo to be in any real danger.

Also, shamans can tank better than clerics(assuming you aren't playing an iksar shaman) and can snap agro away from the enchanter if needed. And if the Shaman is a troll shaman, then you can do a janky fear kite on the side while charm fighting.

Lexical

12-07-2012, 02:34 AM

Check the solo artist thread for Svenn and I showing what a 60 shm/60 enc can do. In comparison a 60 enc/60 clr are going to have a lot more trouble on say the protector because if charm breaks you are just utterly screwed.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80165

That is the thread Splorf mentioned.

Netherzul

12-07-2012, 03:18 AM

I'm surprised no one mentioned the sustain of a Shaman in oh-shit situations as well.

Yes, both will have clarity but in the situation of things going south, a Shaman will outlast a Cleric in terms of throughput (Cannibalize ... ).

I will admit, as it stands right now, without Torpor, a Cleric is obviously a faster exp duo using the "CH pet" methodology. Utilizing the "let the pet die once he is low and re-charming one" has worked extremely well with an enchanter friend and I with my current sub-par heals.

Slightly faster killing or take the added benefit of a slightly better slow (also giving the Enchanter less to worry about), the best magical debuffer in the game ... and @ 60, Torpor. The Ench/Shaman duo changes entirely @ 60 with Torpor and this is what pushes this duo to be the best in the game next to a Monk/Shaman.

Prior to 60, Ench/Cleric is very strong but once both sit at 60, it's Ench/Shaman or Monk/Shaman all day.

pasi

12-07-2012, 08:58 AM

Monk/shaman is a good duo, but I don't think it's anywhere near as effective as cleric/enchanter in zones where you can field a decent pet. The flexibility of not needing a pet is nice, but that would affect both shaman/enc and cleric/enc.

A hasted 48-50 pet is going to outdps (especially when Torpor is the main heal) and out-tank a 60 monk.

Shaman/Enchanter is better than Cleric/Enchanter, but the difference isn't large enough where another duo comes into play for the #2 spot in Kunark. The stacking of MR debuffs combined with rapture is the reason for this duo's dominance over the cleric version.
Donal BP (or even just plain old Cheal) on a 8-10k HP pet is pretty absurd when even the toughest shit (that you're duoing) is rounding for 1k.

I'm wondering how easy of a time monk/shaman would have with Protector or Korocust (sans Puppet Strings).

A1551

12-07-2012, 10:39 AM

What you described seems like a much slower albeit safer XP stream then what I would do. I have little interest in keeping a charmed pet and prefer just eating it when it is low health. Unless of course you are rooting both mobs and then breaking charm before one of them dies to avoid the heavy pet XP penalty, but in that case the cleric is mostly useless.

The mala spell line is invaluable to charming mobs since it not only drastically increases the level of the mobs you can charm, it also provides a very strong safety net. Also, if you are charm farming properly, the server would have to take a very big shit(pardon my language) on you for the enchanter/shaman duo to be in any real danger.

Also, shamans can tank better than clerics(assuming you aren't playing an iksar shaman) and can snap agro away from the enchanter if needed. And if the Shaman is a troll shaman, then you can do a janky fear kite on the side while charm fighting.

I admittedly have done a lot less duoing with shamans than clerics but I have done my fair share of both. With that said in almost every case I was exping faster with the cleric -- although every shaman I've duoed with for exp was either an ogre or a troll which would slow things down. Changing pets, requiping them, re-hasting them, etc costs time. Admittedly we are not talking a big difference, but I would certainly put the two duos on par in terms of speed at very worse. And really, if it earns you a single rez you may not have otherwise gotten, we'll thats a big big return :)

As to the comment about exp pet penalties -- if you're grouped with the cleric, there is no penalty. You can just let your pet do all the work of killing all night long and it costs you nothing. Don't take my word for it, just make a level one pet class, group with another level 1 and test it out, you'll get same experience regardless of if pet does 100% of damage or if you do all the damage (or any combination thereof). Besides, if there were a pet exp penalty for duos that would hurt ench/shaman duos almost as much.

Malo is amazing for charming no doubts about that. And shamans can tank like machines especially considering they can step in and slow stuff (sparing chanter the aggro / cycles of attention), but pulling aggro off the chanter isnt exactly a problem for clerics either. As to fear kiting -- clerics can get that clicky snare necklace assuming they're dark elves too. Although realistically it is of limited use.

webrunner5

12-07-2012, 10:43 AM

Lorraine

12-07-2012, 11:04 AM

I love how lots of people on here are all goo gaw about having Enchanters charm a high level pet. Best combo in the game crap. Yeah sure if it doesn't kill u and the rest of the group. Like Enchanters never die in this game.

There are like 6 Enchanters in this game can keep a pet going, CC and pull. What the Cleric is going to pull? They can but its not really very effective. I am not saying they are a bad combo. Just that is sounds a lot better on paper than it does in reality.

There is a reason Monk Shaman is the king of the hill combo in this game. It just works if the Monk is worth a damn. FD is a God Send pure and simple.

You can't belittle enchanters by saying they aren't dying, and then proclaim FD as the end all be all.

FD gets resisted, FD will not save you from wall caster mobs, FD will not save you from potential AoE's that will break it, and FD willl not save you from Icecometing Krups in Seb, or even Kurs in LGuk. It will also not save you from 3+ HTing mobs in a pack. There's a reason some monks refuse to pull inside some Seb areas without geting buffed to the teeth first.

With ench/cler you can get more things that people realise. You get double lull'ing classes. Access to regular invis and IVU. Clerics can nuke better than shamans in regards to undead mobs. And if your enchanter dies while trying to lull break a camp, you pull his corpse back a little, res him and you're back into it without a huge hassle.

If your monk dies inside Chef or in HS south, you're gonna have a much bigger problem than a simple /consent and a smoke break.

Pets were, are, and WILL be a lot better than player classes in specific departments.
From Kedge, to Plane of Air, people have been killing mobs with chain petting / charming , that they would otherwise have no chance to do so.

You think that's bad? Wait till Velious comes out..
Because there WILL be charmed Giants :P

A1551

12-07-2012, 11:06 AM

Unless of course you are rooting both mobs and then breaking charm before one of them dies to avoid the heavy pet XP penalty, but in that case the cleric is mostly useless.

Hey Lexical just wanted to clarify on this after further thought -- if there were a pet exp penalty when grouped it would totally change how enchanter duos had to be played for maximal xp, it would literally invalidate almost entirely the most effective ways of duo leveling I know (with a shaman or cleric or anyone else for that matter) -- hasting and equipping pets would essentially be useless for exping as a duo, slowing would be a lot less useful (as preserving pets health would be counterproductive), etc. A cleric chanter duo would be severely curtailed under that situation.

A lot of your doubts about the abilities of a cleric/chanter make absolute sense under a pet exp penalty for groups. It might be time to empirically prove or disprove this one and put it to bed either way -- I suppose it is possible, if there were a group pet exp penalty, the exp of a cleric/chanter duo even halved could seem really fast compared to more traditional groups.

-Propo Fol

A1551

12-07-2012, 11:59 AM

I love how lots of people on here are all goo gaw about having Enchanters charm a high level pet. Best combo in the game crap. Yeah sure if it doesn't kill u and the rest of the group. Like Enchanters never die in this game.

There are like 6 Enchanters in this game can keep a pet going, CC and pull. What the Cleric is going to pull? They can but its not really very effective. I am not saying they are a bad combo. Just that is sounds a lot better on paper than it does in reality.

There is a reason Monk Shaman is the king of the hill combo in this game. It just works if the Monk is worth a damn. FD is a God Send pure and simple.

ONE of the best combos in the game, absolutely. Best? Possibly, although it'd be a silly thing to argue about. I'm sure you'd agree the player behind the character has a big impact on whether or not that is true for any duo :P

Webrunner I honestly believe myself to be only an average enchanter as far as things go and I can tell you unequivocally that I can duo with a cleric, manage a pet, slow most mobs, do crowd control, AND pull effectively (for a duo) Most enchanters I've leveled with 50+ can likewise do the same. It's obviously a lot harder in bigger groups as things die a lot faster and you need to spend more time pulling, more time buffing, etc. But lull with high charisma is an extremely powerful pulling mechanic, and AE mesmerization is an extremely powerful ass saver for the very rare cases when lull crit resists. Enchanters die all the time, but I'll tell you its usually not when theyre grinding exp and duoing with their favorite healer. I honestly don't remember the last time I died grinding with my usual duo partner, and we level as a duo almost exclusively in HS wings at this point. I'm sure a monk/shaman could do the same, and probably for similar results.

Monk/Shaman is an awesome duo. I don't know if its a "better" duo than cleric/ench or shaman/ench they're all certainly overpowered beyond all reason. But to say that ench/(healer) is only an excellent duo on paper is absurd and that most of the server sucks too bad to pull it off is equally laughable. Ench/cleric or shaman is massively overpowered for the same reason monk/shaman is -- you have a full group's worth of functionality crammed down into two people.

-Propo Fol

pasi

12-07-2012, 12:35 PM

Splorf22

12-07-2012, 12:35 PM

So the reason enc/shm is so powerful is for high end mobs its all about getting them slowed. Tash+malo+rapture sometimes+two players slowing is just extremely useful for high level mobs like the Protector that resist up the ass. I'm pretty sure that Svenn and I could have a relatively decent kill rate on the Protector, Tolapumj, or Korocust (80%+) as a duo - we killed them all on our first try. Monk/Shaman just doesn't have that: you're counting on the monk to proc his tash stick and even then you have less MR debuff than an enchanter and only one player slowing. Even on a relatively easy mob like the fungi king I think Monk/Shaman has like a 10% chance of just getting screwed by resists.

For leveling I think Cleric/Enc is about the same Shaman/Enc just with different playstyles. It's also extremely effective on mobs <=55 where the enchanter can do reasonable CC on breaks. Both will level much faster than Monk/Shaman: a L60 for example an epic monk with shaman haste is probably 60-70 dps while a charmed krup is 100+. I think Monk/Shaman really starts to rock in Velious, where the monks get higher AC and better weapons and Enchanters take it up the butt with high MR. Although if the server stays classic there will be a few months of giant rampage in Kael.

Stoggieman

12-07-2012, 12:36 PM

Wow, I figured this would evolve into this sort of discussion. Lots of great points. Yes, there are great points to all 3 of these groups. I'll be quite pleased to play any of them. I agree that the player behind the toon is just as if not more important than the class of the toon itself. The number of monks I dragged back for rezzes with my own monk is too high to count. That being said, I think we'll probably grind all three pairs up to their 20's figure out which we enjoy the most, and then keep going up with those two.... Thanks for adding the sham or cleric/ench to our dossier of character pairs, as I think that will be a lot of fun.
As far as epic's.... the Raster and I have a great relationship. I show up, he pops some 40 minutes after I leave every time.... even after my 21 straight hours camping him (thanks to the old room mate for covering the beer/bourbon pickup for the second half). The necro mage might be the duo exclusive but i do shudder thinking of their epic weapons......

pasi

12-07-2012, 12:42 PM

For leveling I think Cleric/Enc is about the same Shaman/Enc just with different playstyles. It's also extremely effective on mobs <=55 where the enchanter can do reasonable CC on breaks. Both will level much faster than Monk/Shaman: a L60 for example an epic monk with shaman haste is probably 60-70 dps while a charmed krup is 100+. I think Monk/Shaman really starts to rock in Velious, where the monks get higher AC and better weapons and Enchanters take it up the butt with high MR. Although if the server stays classic there will be a few months of giant rampage in Kael.

Kael charming is all about finding a level 50 Drakkel Direwolf. Much easier to recharm (stun/mezzable) and still hit for 200+. The big issue is they aren't humanoid, but on this server - that doesn't matter for weapon-giving.

Lorraine

12-07-2012, 01:47 PM

in Velious Enchanters take it up the butt with high MR.

Loraen you'll always be a pal and I would normally feel some sympathy but every time I recall zoning into Velks Lab trying to solo grind some AAs in peace during off-peak server hours, and then finding a fucking direcharmed dog on each spider spawn, it's 'zero ducks' time >.<

Elements

12-07-2012, 02:46 PM

I think the take home from this discussion should be that all of the combos suggested will level very fast together and have solid potential for cash camp farming. With that said you should probably consider what your end game goals will look like because before you know it with any of these combos you will be 60 and the levelling will be behind you. Do you want to raid heavily? Farm cash drops to twink alts? Or push the limits of your duo? If raiding is your game do you want to be a buff bot? CH spammer? Dps? Mana twitcher? Puller? Some people detest being the only shaman at a raid, others love pulling. What are your end game ambitions?

Stoggieman

12-07-2012, 03:11 PM

Exactly, takehome on that is about right. We've both been to last island of air, basically started our breaks just before NToV. So have done all the other fights minus NToV and ST. So we'll push and enjoy all we can. I enjoy pulling to no end, and likely will have a monk somewhere in there. And can level all the way up with him too, that I know how to do well. But will definitely take the other toons up just with him. Thanks everyone for their help...

NizmerThafen

12-07-2012, 03:21 PM

I would strongly advocate a Monk + Shaman. While a Mage and Necro certainly can take down individual enemies with relative ease, they are severely lacking dungeon crawl capability or single pulls (in non-undead areas).

If you are looking for something more leisurely then a Mage + Necro might be your best bet. If you want a power duo for dungeon crawls and higher-end fights, then a Shaman + Monk is by far the best.

I actually think a Shaman + Paladin make an uber combo (I occasionally play with my brother) and we can take on tremendously powerful enemies and dungeon crawl with ease. There are no weak points within a Paladin + Shaman duo. haha

Snagglepuss

12-07-2012, 03:41 PM

If it's your first characters, mage and necro are great for farming and incredibly gear independent. You can get a decent foothold for platinum and twinking too. Both can solo with ease through 50, and post fifty duoing is a blast.

No, you won't be that amazing enc / cler or monk, shm duo that will take down the fungi king and impress the grandmaster solo competition thread, but you'll be able to have many other options. And plus, twinking a monk / paladin and shaman will be a blast!

Elements

12-07-2012, 04:06 PM

^ agreed. Much more fun to play up a twinked melee than a twinked caster.

Lexical

12-07-2012, 07:24 PM

A lot of your doubts about the abilities of a cleric/chanter make absolute sense under a pet exp penalty for groups. It might be time to empirically prove or disprove this one and put it to bed either way -- I suppose it is possible, if there were a group pet exp penalty, the exp of a cleric/chanter duo even halved could seem really fast compared to more traditional groups.

-Propo Fol

Hmm, I thought if a single pet dealt the majority of the damage it got a large chunk of the xp regardless of in a group or not. Honestly, I have never really followed up on it, but if you are right then the cleric/enchanter duo would be very potent albeit it still wouldn't touch the sham/ench combo in terms of versatility and how deep into a dungeon you can go.

Also, you have to factor in the added damage from the mobs your charm is taking when you eat your pet. You are basically doubling your damage output by eating the mobs and not CHing them(without considering haste). If I were trying to clear a zone ASAP, I would not bother with the CH or giving the pet weapons though haste would definitely be in the line up if the xp pet penalty doesn't affect group xp.

As to fear kiting -- clerics can get that clicky snare necklace assuming they're dark elves too. Although realistically it is of limited use.

The inny symbol is very important yes, but that doesn't mean you can fear kite effectively with a DE cleric and an enchanter. Shaman's dots are an integral mix into it as well as their pet.