Shrink restrictions in HHK

[Lickum]

I've been leveling in HK since my 20's. Now since the shrink changes I can't shrink there. Sometimes I can walk through the hallways with no worries, but if I hit something that makes me duck then I cant unduck unless I find an area with an extra high roof. Its an outdoor....indoor zone? I am confused and frustrated because I really like leveling here and now I can't, but other races can.

[Lickum]

I seem to have found something more. If you are forced to duck, you cannot unduck unless you have more room than needed. If you manually duck before going through doors, etc. you can pass through then unduck without problems.

[Gorroth]

Shrink worked in any zones classified as "dungeon", that includes Crushbone, Blackburrow, High Keep, Cazic Thule, City of Mist, Karnor's and probably a few others, even though you could use outdoor spells while in the zone...

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8126


Some zones were specifically mentioned as being a mix of outdoor/indoor zones, as in, you can cast SoW and shrink at the same time. No, I don't have anything to back up my claims, except my experiences from live. I'm not even sure that information was ever posted somewhere.

I would have hoped this would have been addressed with the shrink changes but apparently a simple, brute zone restriction got chosen instead. This is annoying and disappointing.

Seriously, no shrink in HHK? Just try moving about on ground level or the upper floors in that zone as an ogre or even a troll.

[Jify]

HHK is an outdoor zone. In the first section with the begger & bard, if you look up there is sky.

Sucks for the fatties. :(

[Gorroth]

Oh, look, me and a dark elf rogue are shrunk, in Plane of Hate. (http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8066/eq000130.jpg)

What's this? A tiny shaman in Karnor's! (http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/934/eq000174.jpg). Not convinced it's Karnor's, huh? How about now? (http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4500/eq000175.jpg). Oh, and more Karnor's, while I'm at it (http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8885/eq000204.jpg).

What have we here? Shrunk people in Plane of Air (http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3572/eq000558.jpg). This cannot be! Oh hell, have s'more Air (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2756/eq000565.jpg).

Sadly, no screenshot of me exping in HHK or using bear form + grow to counter-grief someone in Nobles' room. QQ


If you're going to "fix" (fuck up) something as insignificant as being able to use shrink everywhere just for the sake of "being Classic", at least do it right. Not being able to shrink in some locations now is a real pain in the ass.

[Uaellaen]

gorro i think it was changed in kunark or velious to not be indoors only anymore, i cant exactly rememer wich expansion ... it was definatly not possible to shrink in any outdoor zone in vanilla EQ up to kunark, and your screenshots are velious UI i think ...

[Gorroth]

Oh, so we're "fixing" stuff now only to change them back at a later date? Well if the devs have nothing else to do than waste their time on such things just for the sake of continuity, I don't mind.

Maybe I'll make a thread to delete all the Wu's armor and "fix" the recipes, only leaving the gloves, see what the monks think about this...

[Uaellaen]

yes indeed, trying to make it all as classic as possible ... they are trying to follow the classic time line, thus having manastones and masks drop in lguk up until a certain point, and rubi etc.

[Tallenn]

The spell shouldn't be INDOORS only, it should be DUNGEON only. There is a separate flag for dungeon/not dungeon, that has nothing to do with indoor/outdoor. There are several outdoor dungeons: Crushbone, Cazic Thule, Unrest, and Blackburrow. I'm not sure if HHK was flagged a dungeon in classic, but my gut tells me it was.

[Bumamgar]

------------------------------
September 26, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
- Shaman and Beastlord Shrink spell has had its location restriction
removed.


This was a month before PoP was released. Prior to that, the location restrictions were in place. Since this is a classic server that will stop at Velious, those restrictions should be in place on this server.

[astuce999]

Quoted from : http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010109.html (January 9th, 2001, well into velious).

Root and Snare:
Root-type spells and 'snare' type spells now use a separate spell effect.

Previously, 'Root' spells would overwrite any snare effect upon the target. When the root would wear off, the target began moving at full speed. With this change, when root wears off, snare will still be in effect. This has a few added effects on the other end.

For instance, root will no longer cancel SoW or Journeyman's Boots effects. It also allowed us to correct a long-standing bug that was allowing bards to cancel root on themselves by playing Selo's Accelerando if Selo's was in effect at the time that the bard was rooted. As mentioned in a previous patch where the first part of this bug was fixed, this was not the intended effect.

Should we expect this change soon? Since they're supposed to follow the classic timeline. As a bard, I'd love selo's to overwrite root like it did in classic.

What about: http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/19990913.html (sept. 13th, 1999)

DoT Changes:
If the monster is in melee with you, there is no change to how a DoT spell works.
If the monster is running away from you (fear, wounded, etc.), there is no change to how a DoT spell works.
If the monster is moving when the damage from the DoT is applied (happens every few seconds), it will take 66% of the damage that it would have taken.
DoT spells have all had their duration slightly increased. If the monster moves for 18 seconds during a fight, it will take as much damage from the DoT as it would before the patch. If the monster moves for less then 18 seconds during a fight, your DoT will do more damage then it would have done before the patch. If the monster moves more then 18 seconds during the fight, it will take less damage then it would have before the patch.

Will we see this nerf in effect just like the shrink one?

Astuce Subterfuge

[Gorroth]

------------------------------
September 26, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
- Shaman and Beastlord Shrink spell has had its location restriction
removed.


This was a month before PoP was released. Prior to that, the location restrictions were in place. Since this is a classic server that will stop at Velious, those restrictions should be in place on this server.

Explain my screenshots. They were all taken "outdoors". Last I checked, you could SoW in Karnor's. And shrink.

[Bumamgar]

a) Your supposed screenshots do not qualify as reliable data, see any number of threads elsewhere in this forum re: the ease of faking a screenshot to 'prove' whatever the poster intends.

b) I never said anything about 'outdoors', I just quoted the patch message regarding 'LOCATION' restrictions. As I recall, and others have mentioned in this thread, the Shaman shrink spell had a 'dungeon' restriction, not an 'indoor/outdoor' restriction. Meaning it worked in zones that were considered dungeons. There are several zones like Karnors that were both 'outdoor' and 'dungeon' zones. I do not know if HHK was one of these zones, I never spent any time there on live (or here on p1999, for that matter). I do know from conversations with Nilbog that it is intended to replicate this functionality here on p1999, so if HHK was one of these 'dungeon/outdoor' zones, I'm sure they'll fix shrink there once it's proven.

c) I recommend relaxing and dropping the defensive attitude and sarcasm when bringing up things you believe to be bugs or want the devs to look into and address. It is counterproductive and doesn't help your case any.

[Bumamgar]

Astuce Subterfuge:

It has been stated several times by the devs in other threads that while p1999 is intended to replicate classic as much as possible, the devs are using their discretion with regards to replicating bugs. For example, just because there may have been a plat-dupe bug or pathing exploit on Live in 1999 or 2000 doesn't mean it will be replicated here. The root / snare stacking issue was a bug, and although it was a relatively long-standing one, it still is in the category of 'bug' and as such will likely be implemented here on p1999 'as intended' (ie: fixed) not 'as it actually was'.

Clearly this is a discretionary area and well reasoned and thought out comments posted to the proper forum/thread might cause the devs to change the behavior of a specific issue.

The DoT nerf (ie: kiting nerf) actually went through a variety of iterations (at one point any movement (including feared) would reduce the damage done by a DoT) before SOE finally decided on a balanced mechanism. Although the devs here are trying to faithfully recreate the balance of Live from 1999 and nerf items / spells etc to reflect the changes over time that happened on live (ie: Manastone, etc), they don't have the resources or ability to follow every single change to the letter. As such, some 'fixes' or 'nerfs' were in place day one on p1999, and others may come into play later on p1999 than they did on Live, or may only go from 'original' state to 'final' state, skipping the individual 'tweaks' made in Live while the devs were figuring out the proper balance.

p1999 isn't a perfect clone of Live circa 1999, but it's a damn good effort and certainly reflects the spirit of EQ from back then. The devs are working hard to improve it every day, and constructive and intelligent posts backed with research and proof go a long way towards helping them resolve issues and make this server even closer to that goal.

[astuce999]

Bumamgar : thank you very much for your post, it was well written and well thought out and if it is indeed the mindset of the devs, I can certainly live with that.

I would appreciate some guidelines though as to what they're actually planning to do with all the nerfs and changes all the way through velious.

For example, manastone dropped and then was removed as a certain time line was respected. However, dots stack with themselves and their lower versions, something that didn't come along until much much later, so the timeline was not respected.

Is it because of a mechanics issue that it's much more simple to remove an item than to rework stacking of dots, and that we should expect a nerf to dot stacking once they get around to it? Or are we to understand that it will use the current mechanics and leave it alone?

What about items that were changed (for the better), like the Singing Steel (bard armor). It originally had useless effects like summon food and another selo's, but then was changed to Levitate, fear, and on the BP a 100 point heal. Will they follow a timeline since it's relatively easy to code, or will they use the final effect (retuned) that should have been on there since day one?

It would be nice if the 'vision' (tm) was made clear.

cheers

Astuce Subterfuge

[Bumamgar]

For the most part, item changes are easy (as you note) and thus are likely to follow the timeline. For example, the Cleric mask with Call of Bones will be nerfed to a Fear effect right before Kunark goes live (Nilbog is already aware of this and planning on nerfing the item accordingly).

Spell stacking issues are a bit tougher, some even more than others (like DoT stacking). That being said, if the devs can be made aware of exactly how it worked before the change, when it was changed, and why, it's likely that an effort will be made to mirror classic as much as possible. However, there are fewer resources available for making core 'code level' fixes than there are for things like item, spawn and quest fixes, so code level changes will take longer and have to be prioritized more carefully.

To the topic of shrink spells, another fix that should be made is to modify Ant Potions to have a location restriction as well, although that gets removed in Kunark (July 19, 2000, a month after The Hole went live).

[Gorroth]

Bumamgar, your insinuation that my screenshots have been doctored is the epitome of bad faith. To think that I would not only spend the time to dig up dusty screen captures but push the zeal further by making sure they support my claims by "enhancing" them and have them look perfect at the same time is laughable.

Furthermore, next time you quote patch notes, you might want to detail what we're supposed to understand from the notes instead of simply plopping it in our laps, akin to a "quoted for truth" statement.

Now about "fixing" shrink potions, if the devs want to go around disabling and re-enabling features that's their prerogative, but I'm sure they could be doing something else with their precious time.

[Bumamgar]

I didn't imply they were doctored, I simply stated why screenshots (in general) aren't considered valid evidence on these forums.

As for the patch notes, I'm sorry, I assumed they would be self explanatory.

Clearly you aren't actually attempting to have a constructive dialog to better the development of this server, but are instead simply raging over a change that you don't agree with. There's a rants-and-flames forum for that.

To the stated intent of THIS thread: if you want the shrink restrictions removed from High Hold Keep, I suggest you do some research and provide evidence that verifies that Shrink worked in High Hold Keep pre-Kunark. If you do that, I'm sure the devs will fix it so that shrink works in that zone here on p1999. (Again, screenshots will not be considered valid proof, for examples of valid proof, please see this post by Nilbog: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5570)

Thank you!

[Phallax]

You can thank me for the shrink restrictions. http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8126

Altho it was already a work in process. You can thank me for the spell worn of msgs being removed also. And people hated that too. It doesnt matter what YOU want to happen, what matters is what happened in classic that was not an unintended bug will be replicated the same way here. Ill try and do some research but zones like CT, HHK, Karnors, PoHate and CoM to name a few were considered outdoor dungeons and allowed for shrinking. And yes Ant potions were unrestricted, and made them a hot item to sell.

[Bumamgar]

You can thank me for the shrink restrictions. http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8126

Altho it was already a work in process. You can thank me for the spell worn of msgs being removed also. And people hated that too. It doesnt matter what YOU want to happen, what matters is what happened in classic that was not an unintended bug will be replicated the same way here. Ill try and do some research but zones like CT, HHK, Karnors, PoHate and CoM to name a few were considered outdoor dungeons and allowed for shrinking. And yes Ant potions were unrestricted, and made them a hot item to sell.

Ant potions were only unrestricted post Kunark... (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2000-2.html)
------------------------------
July 19, 2000 7:00 am
------------------------------
*General Crafts*

- The Ant's Potion may now be used anywhere.

[Phallax]

Ant potions were only unrestricted post Kunark... (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2000-2.html)
------------------------------
July 19, 2000 7:00 am
------------------------------
*General Crafts*

- The Ant's Potion may now be used anywhere.

Yea i didnt mean right now, was saying in general.

[Lickum]

This place is so hard to get around in now, have we found conclusive evidence that shrink should work in High Keep?

[Ossigor]

Shrink should be flagged for Dungeon and not 'Indoor'

I've been digging through old sites and can't find any proof, but I remember people shrinking in Karnors which was 1) Outdoors 2) a dungeon 3) before the patch that made shrink castable everywhere

Will keep looking.. my fatty is leveling in HHK right now, I feel the pain

EDIT:

thought i had somethnig http://www.shadowcouncil.com/2001/01/16/Gutnuit+Gets+Legs.aspx but alas this looks to be after the change

[guineapig]

Both Highpass and Highkeep are considered to be outdoor zones:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zone.html?mode=bytype

However, it's not considered to be a dungeon:

A few things to note; 1. Even though this zone acts as a dungeon, even with a heavy XP bonus, it is actually considered an outdoor zone. This means you can cast SOW and other outdoor only spells.

http://old.eqcircle.com/articles/hunting/highkeep.htm

The difference here is that Karnor's is a dungeon. PoAir is also a dungeon. hence the pictures with shrunken people in them. In fact, all the images are of dungeons but sadly Highkeep isn't one.

[Dersk]

http://old.eqcircle.com/articles/hunting/highkeep.htm

The difference here is that Karnor's is a dungeon. PoAir is also a dungeon. hence the pictures with shrunken people in them. In fact, all the images are of dungeons but sadly Highkeep isn't one.

The EQcircle link confuses indoor with dungeon, as if the two cannot coexist. They use the fact that SoW can be cast as explanation of why it isn't a dungeon, when you go on to mention two other places that allow SoW and shrink.

[guineapig]

The EQcircle link confuses indoor with dungeon, as if the two cannot coexist. They use the fact that SoW can be cast as explanation of why it isn't a dungeon, when you go on to mention two other places that allow SoW and shrink.

This is true. That article wasn't that great, just the first mention I could find about it being a dungeon. I should not have used it as an example.

I guess what would be more noteworthy is that we know that the pictures that were posted are all of dungeons and none of the pictures take place in Highpass Hold.

[Ossigor]

Welp, should still work for MM and Unrest then which currently, last time I was there about a week or two ago, I was unable to shrink.

[Brut]

This needs a bump. Remembering more than well that on live circa classic/Kunark era, I lost my shammy's level19 in Crushbone and wanted the spell level back real bad so I could keep shrinking in the Throne Room (due to ogres being unable to squeeze into the crush tower behind the chair). Also know it was pre-velious since I didn't hit 24ish on the shm until Velious opening, this was before that.

Shrink wasn't strictly an indoors thing, it was about zones flagged as dungeons.

Most hard to find proof of this though, grr.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010714082032/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=6502&mode=details&spname=Shrink&type=

Last comment on that mentions Blackburrow being a zone where it works, ina year 2000!

[Nerosys]

I guess all the people posting screenshots dont realize shrink pots can be used outdoors

[Deanob]

FAD.

[Nirgon]

Shrink pots did work outdoors, shaman shrink was indoor only.

You can SoW in HHK, its considered outdoor.

[Brut]

Shrink wasn't strictly an indoors thing, it was about zones flagged as dungeons.

|
|
v

i spent about two days in Blackburrow playing with this spell, just because it was so much fun.

Can't seem to find any class guides or spell explanation sites that would list the zones proper. Guess people weren't too big on this back then.

Badum-tish.