Implementing a basic, and I mean BASIC AA System?

[Wonka11]

I'll try to stay concise; After 60 and getting an epic or raid gear, there isn't much to really DO outside of making another alt and farming gear, or power leveling if your class allows.

That is cool and all, but I really enjoyed the BASIC (non-op AAs) AA system they first implemented giving a bit more longevity to improving my character and making exp groups still viable and fun to do on my maxed char.

Now don't freak out, I'm sure its possible to even alter the first implemented AA system to only allow for certain abilities and I'm sure its also possible to tone these down as well to adjust for a more 'vanilla' feel.

I also realize AA's weren't in vanilla, but the system was largely successful when first implemented, before with each expansion, getting way out of hand and unbalanced.

This is just a light mentioning of the topic, not necessarily serious, but I figured it was one of the excellent mechanics that came from Everquest which a lot of other games for some reason didn't adopt.

[eqravenprince]

AA's detract from what the server needs most for continued health which is people starting alts.

[Xadion]

AA's detract from what the server needs most for continued health which is people starting alts.

So people leveling their alts (usualy PL or solo) in level 1-40 zones is better for population than those same people AA exping (usualy in groups as they are a must at 55+)

[webrunner5]

I think in the end this server ought to have like 100 AA's. This really helps balance out some of the classes that are sucking hind tit here. Rangers, SK's, and Pally's come to mind.

There was a reason Sony came up with AA's, and that was to help everyone become a little more equal.

[Mythdar]

I feel sony implemented AA's actually to make more money via subscriptions

[Ferok]

I feel sony implemented AA's actually to make more money via subscriptions

You can pretty much put any word related to Everquest, including Everquest, in the place of "AA's" here, and be accurate.

Let's try it out:

I feel sony implemented fungi tunics actually to make more money via subscriptions.

As to the original post, this is a topic for down the road I think. Velious is what there is to do post-60, IMO. AA's appropriately didn't come along until Luclin. I think there's some value there, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't belong in Velious initially.

[Ravager]

There will be plenty do in Velious with your main before devs need to worry about AAs.

[falkun]

I don't think AA's will ever be introduced.. I've ripped out so much of it from the code already lol.

[Yardcore]

Nope

[Frieza_Prexus]

I've always felt that the server should eventually go past Velious. I've played Kunark for two years now because I hope to see Velious. Once that's out, I can just see all the people who scream "NOT CLASSIC LOL" not sticking around.

I think AAs and custom content would be an excellent addition that would provide a lot of entertainment and attraction for newer players.

We wanted a classic server like P99 because we wanted to start out in vanilla and then progress to the end of Velious. A static and unchanging environment was never the big draw. It was the notion of progressing. I think a continuation of that would be extremely healthy.

[webrunner5]

Yeah, good points and bad points about having AA's on here, no boubt

[falkun]

Xasten, you might be in luck: Some of us are looking forward to adding some custom content after velious, yet keeping in line with the feel of classic everquest.
At the same time, you knew what the server's goal was from the onset. Once Velious is released, the server will have performed its function. Maybe then people will realize the journey is the destination and stop plowing forward to the end and then begging for "more end" (read: more content) the way TMO (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=612953&postcount=134) does (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=665541&postcount=9).

I'd thoroughly enjoy another couple months of Kunark, as I still have to finish getting 60, obtaining my epic, and seeing VP. If you are absorbing content faster than its being produced, you will run out of it, simple math. Everyone loves saying release content faster, but most people refuse to acknowledge they could fix their problem by absorbing it slower.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that I ate all my candy before we got home from the store.

That said, eventually everyone will have consumed the content, and I think that moving beyond Velious would ultimately be healthy.

[falkun]

To an extent I can agree. At the same time, SOE/Verant thought the same way, and everyone here disagrees: "Classic is better" (its why we are here and not on Live/EQMac). Nostalgia is a bittersweet thing. Hopefully the direction Rogean hints at is "classic enough" that it keeps the server healthy after Velious has grown long in the tooth.

[eqravenprince]

So people leveling their alts (usualy PL or solo) in level 1-40 zones is better for population than those same people AA exping (usualy in groups as they are a must at 55+)

Even if some people solo or PL their alts, there are still those that start up an alt and level up by grouping. In my opinion, it is a bad idea to make the server even more top heavy. AA's would cause this.

[Nirgon]

BURN HIM AT THE STAKE

[fadetree]

I wouldn't mind something like the basic set of AA's.

[godbox]

i liked beastlords

[Nirgon]

I think long after Velious being out adding things like this and rerolling a fresh box with all the fixes and the masterful "era labeled items" would be a very good idea.

[rafaone]

I've always felt that the server should eventually go past Velious. I've played Kunark for two years now because I hope to see Velious. Once that's out, I can just see all the people who scream "NOT CLASSIC LOL" not sticking around.

I think AAs and custom content would be an excellent addition that would provide a lot of entertainment and attraction for newer players

Tot'd agree

[Ravager]

Fact is, there's lotsa servers out with more content and AA's. I think there might even be a Sony run server like that. Personally, I like the idea of having this server stop, then I get to say I won it when I can't progress further and I can go find something better to do with my time.

[Kope]

Many others don't want the server to just end and eventually die. For many it's not about wining, it's about the love of the game.

[webrunner5]

Some people forget this game has been out almost 3 years to the day now. Not hard to get to level 60 in 3 years is it?? I know velious is coming out in who knows when, but this game is not going to last without some new things added, sorry.

[Ravager]

3 years of the same content and people are still playing it. Seems to be lasting just fine.

[Frieza_Prexus]

then I get to say I won it when I can't progress further

My issue is that people with this view CAN quit with that feeling at any time. We can't seriously suggest that people are so lacking in self control that they can't simply set a goal and walk away. Would new content truly cause you distress and frustration?

I submit that it is unreasonable for someone to be distressed over new content, but that it IS reasonable to be distressed over a lack of content.

[Kope]

My issue is that people with this view CAN quit with that feeling at any time. We can't seriously suggest that people are so lacking in self control that they can't simply set a goal and walk away. Would new content truly cause you distress and frustration?

I submit that it is unreasonable for someone to be distressed over new content, but that it IS reasonable to be distressed over a lack of content.

Stop...making...sense...hurting...brain...

[Ravager]

My point is there is lots and lots of content out there. This server is offering only its stated purpose and no more. You knew what you were getting into when you signed up. You knew from day one of rolling your char that this server would stop at Velious. So why make a big deal of it now?

[Kope]

My point is there is lots and lots of content out there. This server is offering only its stated purpose and no more. You knew what you were getting into when you signed up. You knew from day one of rolling your char that this server would stop at Velious. So why make a big deal of it now?

This isn't true at all, look at different quotes Rogean has been saying for a long time. Sure, the initial goal was to velious but they're already thinking past that.

[Ravager]

You're right, they did leave that option open, but still, where do you draw the line? The very reason I quit live was because it was getting out of control with all the crap they added to it. Everyone here wants something different or has a different idea of what should be included as classic. At some point you have to say, "this is it, this is all we get" otherwise this will just turn into one of Sony's progressive servers.

And by the nature of this project, with only a handful of coders running the show as a hobby (for which I am appreciative), there will always be a shortage of content. If you use up the content and have to have more, this is not the right server for you.

[Spitty]

Might as well throw Luclin in, too.

Velious wasn't built for AA-enhanced characters. Adding abilities of any value just makes Velious content even easier, and people are already bellyaching about things being too easy.

[Dalron]

... We can't seriously suggest that people are so lacking in self control that they can't simply set a goal and walk away. ...

Don't know much about human nature re EQ? There's a reason it was called EverCrack ...

Dalron

[Nirgon]

I hope new servers that start from scratch are planned down the road from now after all the fixes are in and everything is labeled era appropriate.

[Kope]

You're right, they did leave that option open, but still, where do you draw the line? The very reason I quit live was because it was getting out of control with all the crap they added to it. Everyone here wants something different or has a different idea of what should be included as classic. At some point you have to say, "this is it, this is all we get" otherwise this will just turn into one of Sony's progressive servers.

And by the nature of this project, with only a handful of coders running the show as a hobby (for which I am appreciative), there will always be a shortage of content. If you use up the content and have to have more, this is not the right server for you.

In Rogean's direct quote the content additions would be in the spirit of classic EQ. Not sure what this means exactly but it won't be "we're moving to Luclin now!"

You have to be in charge of when you want to quit. There will never be a "winning" moment in an MMO. That's the entire point, dynamic content. If you feel you want to leave at a point, that's your "winning point" but something will always be changing for everyone else.

[eqravenprince]

I submit that it is unreasonable for someone to be distressed over new content, but that it IS reasonable to be distressed over a lack of content.

None of this is new content. I like keeping my game exactly the same. I would still be playing on P99 had they never released Kunark.

[gloine36]

I'm all for custom content after Velious. EQ was and is a great game. Custom content can go a long way to changing up the same old routine and breath fresh life into the system.

[webrunner5]

So a lot of you are saying ahh hell keep it the way it is for the next 6 years. Yeah right.

[Brutal_X]

Do you guys remember how it was the first time you ever set foot into the world of norrath? It was huge, and i remember i was scared to even press the forward key once i got out of cabilis ( I started in Kunark ). Yes, eventually this content will get boring, but in my opinion adding custom content would be great! It would give that new feeling of being alone to a all new and open vast world. However, anyones opinion to there own, this is just one of mine.

[Acillatem]

Personally I loved the "concept" of AA's, however I don't think it did ALL it was intended to do.

Alternate Advancement was supposed to allow you to continue to flesh out your character and to "customize" your character. The customization never really happened becuz for the most part everyone took the same paths, the same AA's, and it just became a matter of "getting the most" rather than "picking the right ones".

For true customization I would recommend AA limits per "tier" (General/Archtype/Class Specific). And to truly "customize" characters I would suggest a "Random" path need filled before you can choose what you want on your own.

Example: General AAs are capped at 6 (example number). My character's Random AA path is Innate Cold Protection (obviously this would be different for everyone - thus creating truly "customized" toons). I must spend my first 3 AA's on Innate Cold Protection before unlocking the other General AA paths. I spend my next 3 on Regen 3, thus capping out my General AA's.

I get 6 AA's and now my Random "Archtype AA" is unlocked - Spell Casting Subtlety. I must spend my next 12 AA's completing the Spell Casting Subtlety line before unlocking the other Archtype AA paths. Cap out Archtype AA's at say 36. This forces you to a) be smart with your choices and b) with the random AA line needing to be filled first, will actually create some randomization.

I realize no matter what there will still be cookie-cutter Wizards etc.....but at least this puts some minor differences in there and caps AA's.

[Xanthias]

My 2cp

I would not mind seeing the server progress after velious, I enjoyed AA's (hell find me a ranger that didn't), Luclin had fun aspects and fewer time sinks (except the freaking VT key), PoP aside from the stupid books was fun to progress through, after that Sony got stupid.

Maybe take the best parts out of the expansions and skip the stupidity.

[Llodd]

And when you've got your 100 AA's what then?

Gimme more AA's. And when you got them?

Pointless never ending cycle of something more to do.

No thanks. I think if people really play this game just to get max level as fast as possible or PL their alts then thats just tough on them tbh. Whats the farkin rush!

[Xanthias]

You know I was about to close this when this thought came to mind...
the game is called EverQuest, not do the same thing again and again and again and again quest. :)

Like I said earlier, bring on the Ice Giants, then lets see what interesting things can be cooked up.

[Reiker000]

I.

OP suggested that the original (Luclin) AAs were not overpowered. I highly disagree.

II.

Regarding "you max out your AAs, and then want? you want more AAs!" comment, very very very few people ever maxed out their AAs. You could play 12 hours a day and still not max them out, especially if you also raid.

III.

AAs were never meant to customize your character. You customize your character when you choose a race and class. EQ was never meant to use the World of Warcraft "everyone can do everything!" formula.

IV.

AAs were one of the best additions to the game.

[Spitty]

This particular game is called Project 1999, with a goal of emulating Everquest as it existed during a certain period of time.

I'm playing because I enjoyed the game as it existed in that era, not because I want to do another dozen expansions worth of content over again. At a certain point, and I think Luclin is the beginning of that point, once was more than enough.

[Reiker000]

EQ Vanilla = Pablo Honey

Fresh new game that takes the gaming world by storm. Everyone looks on to see what SoE has in store next.

Kunark = The Bends

New content that's still very much like Vanilla, only more refined and even better received.

Velious = OK Computer

SoE becomes masterful at what they do, still releasing the same type of content but with even more polish. Many claim it to be their masterpiece work.

Luclin & PoP = Kid A & Amnesiac

SoE looks back at where they're at and realize that they've basically been doing the same thing over and over, even if they're doing it very well. They decide to mix things up and experiment a little. Reviews are mixed and it becomes a love it or hate it thing.

Comparison kinda breaks down at GoD... that's more akin to the Muse dubstep album.

[Xadion]

Classic to POP all have good connection to each other- yes even cats in space loluclin- after PoP the main xpacs get very disjointed from "the world" - and many more recent ones after OOW GOD shit have attempted to bring it all back to a grounded foothold.

Starting with classic there has been this drive to have mortality break into the power and realm of the gods- Kunark and Velious are all part of "mortal man" gaining power and doing so better than those that came before them and failed, VS, Trak etc and show the gods that they are succeeding where others have failed- then velious the dragons, self proclaimed gods of norrath are overtaken at the highest levels- and yet another plane is broken into and overrun (Growth) - luclin sees the highest levels of demi-godhood and power in the mortal realm with seru, ssra who rules as gods over iksars for ages and the akheva...and mortals overtook them and with that have gotten themselves to the power to break into the realm of the gods and the elemental planes- cullminating in PoP and Time.... it just natturally ends there imo and was a great "plot" place to end and start EQ2....but the world assplode thing was kinda stupid...

[fadetree]

I agree; the whole story-line was cohesive up until the end of PoP, where they ran into it's natural end. After that, they started adding random crap lore just to keep things going.

[Picked]

Might as well throw Luclin in, too.

Velious wasn't built for AA-enhanced characters. Adding abilities of any value just makes Velious content even easier, and people are already bellyaching about things being too easy.

This makes a lot of sense. I loved AA's I liked having a reason to play that character I worked so hard to level up for, and accumulate all that fancy gear for. Whats the use if you are just going to roll an alt once you are done?

I do feel that what Spitty said is right on though. Say you introduce the first set of AA's EQ had. The innates. Innate run speed doesn't affect encounters hardly any if at all. But resists and stat modifiers do.

Resists and stat modifiers allow guilds that haven't done the proper gearing in previous content raid mobs that they technically haven't earned. There is a progression.

But I do feel there are things that can be added that aren't really gamebreaking either.

[falkun]

Like I said earlier, bring on the Ice Giants, then lets see what interesting things can be cooked up.

Still think this thread was the best post-Velious solution discussed to date:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11879

I don't agree with all the locations, as you can see from the posts I have in the thread, but it had some great ideas IMO.

[Picked]

This particular game is called Project 1999, with a goal of emulating Everquest as it existed during a certain period of time.

I'm playing because I enjoyed the game as it existed in that era, not because I want to do another dozen expansions worth of content over again. At a certain point, and I think Luclin is the beginning of that point, once was more than enough.

I too love the classic feel of this Emu. One thing I wanted to do more than anything when I started playing this server was to see VP. And raid Sleepers Tomb I never got too on live. There are some things people either missed out on, or simply joined the game late and never got to see. Yet heard all their guildmates in live reminiscing about all the time.

Me I was in the process of switching servers and trying to level and get back into the mix when velious was released and by the time I got to where I was ready Luclin was out and that's where my guild on the new server started raiding, aside from hitting some mobs here and there in Velious like Statue/Idol AoW, Dain, KT, things like that.

I think there are many in the same boat as I am. Lot of people never even raided fear or hate or sky. There are people playing this because they missed out on things and want to experience it. As long as the game goes through it's intended progression I don't see the harm in custom content, or even releasing other expansions honestly.

[Picked]

If I were going to make up a list of AA's that I thought served a good function without making things too easy or too much different It would look something like this.

Innate Run Speed - self explanatory
Enhanced Tracking - Allow tracking acrossed an entire zone for all tracking classes
Tradeskill AA's - Could do a lot with this. New recipes, Higher skills, added mods to current skill. Maybe even gate potions.
Innate AC - 5-10 ac per train with a max of 3-5 trains
Innate HP - 50hp per train with a max of 3-5 trains
Innate Mana - Doesn't give a lot but say 50 mana per train or something
Innate Attack - 10-20 Attack per train
Persistency AA - Allowing a caster to complete a spell through damage more.
Harvest AA - Mostly for Wizards so they can stay on par through long fights.
Forage AA - Allows for 2 items to be foraged instead of one.

Nothing necessarily game changing. Just something to give people a reason to keep exp'ing on their chars. These are all just fluff AA's that do make a character more affective without getting carried away.

If I did implement something like this the exp wouldn't be fast. It would take a long time to obtain an AA point. I would make it like the equivalent of one of the 51+ levels that aren't the hell levels or something.

[theguyy]

I'm not confident anyone short of the 1999 version of Brad McQuaid can build upon Velious. It's one thing to keep EQ classic, it's a whole nother beast to build upon the spirit of the game without ruining it.

[eqravenprince]

I'm not confident anyone short of the 1999 version of Brad McQuaid can build upon Velious. It's one thing to keep EQ classic, it's a whole nother beast to build upon the spirit of the game without ruining it.

I agree. Mainly because everyone has a different opinion on what the spirit would be.

[Hailto]

So people leveling their alts (usualy PL or solo) in level 1-40 zones is better for population than those same people AA exping (usualy in groups as they are a must at 55+)

Theres no lack of population 55+ so thats a moot point.

[Llodd]

I.
Regarding "you max out your AAs, and then want? you want more AAs!" comment, very very very few people ever maxed out their AAs. You could play 12 hours a day and still not max them out, especially if you also raid.



Considering it's a request made by people that 'need something else to do' then it's highly likely those same people will max them out if a limited system is introduced. 100 AA's, for example, doesn't take that long to get.

Unless you're really going to expand on it such as on live then yes people will max out their AA's and then just want more. Most casuals never did on live but proper raid guilds always had many people maxxed out.

I suppose you could make them far more difficult to achieve, say same amount of regular levelling xp required to gain one including hell levels! I recall getting AA's like candy on halloween, back in the day.

Still don't like it though.

[Dragonzord]

if you want AAs and a classic eq experience why not just play eq mac?

[Frieza_Prexus]

if you want AAs and a classic eq experience why not just play eq mac?

Because this server is a different community that we want to participate in. Further, many of us are enticed by the notion of adding NEW material in the same vein as classic material. (sans moon cats)

[Dragonzord]

hmm new stuff as in completely new lore never seen before or new stuff as in adding some things from newer expansions while leaving out others? i thought ldon was a cool idea because it added content to old zones. i guess im just confused on what exactly do they mean new stuff.

edit: the same people calling cats on the moon rediculous are asking for luclin AAs, interesting.

[Frieza_Prexus]

hmm new stuff as in completely new lore never seen before or new stuff as in adding some things from newer expansions while leaving out others? i thought ldon was a cool idea because it added content to old zones. i guess im just confused on what exactly do they mean new stuff.

That's a question that has yet to be addressed. In my view, you could transfer PoP over with a few adjustments (Time travel is STUPID). Much of Luclin could be adjusted in terms of story and zones could be adjusted in location.

There's no reason we couldn't have a GM event to implement Ssraeshza Temple and all of its attendant encounters. We could retain already created material, but give them a more creative and story friendly slant.

[Picked]

hmm new stuff as in completely new lore never seen before or new stuff as in adding some things from newer expansions while leaving out others? i thought ldon was a cool idea because it added content to old zones. i guess im just confused on what exactly do they mean new stuff.

edit: the same people calling cats on the moon rediculous are asking for luclin AAs, interesting.

Ya I don't get the whole "cats on the moon" reference myself. I thought Luclin had some of the best raiding of all the expansions in EQ. It was diverse. You had Sseru, Emperor Ssrarzha, THO, The Burrower, XTC, those all dropped great loot. Then you have Vex Thael, while I admit was a little monotonous it was still pretty damn fun. Not to mention the cool loot it had.

There was a ton of items people pined for out of VT. Wasn't the same old, increased stats, +hp + mana stuff. It was cool effects, cool graphics.

[fadetree]

As far as 'new content' goes, what should probably happen is to develop some kind of coherent story line. That's what really holds the immersion and sense of place together. In other words, somebody needs to write a cool story. Bro.

[Dragonzord]

id rather see a new server pop up than custom content. classic eq is classic and its the only thing that makes this server unique.

[Picked]

id rather see a new server pop up than custom content. classic eq is classic and its the only thing that makes this server unique.

Definitely got a point there.

[Kope]

id rather see a new server pop up than custom content. classic eq is classic and its the only thing that makes this server unique.

They mentioned the idea of a 1 time transfer of a character to their "custom content" server. This would retain the p99 server but still allow you to transfer your main character over to the custom content server. You get what you want, the other people get what they want.

[stonez138]

AAs were never meant to customize your character.

I didn't know you designed the AA system.

[Picked]

I didn't know you designed the AA system.

If AA's would have been implemented for "customization" reasons only....you wouldn't have been able to buy them all. You would have chosen certain ones from a specific category that you wanted.

Putting AA's in and allowing everyone that class to get all of the AA's listed is not what I consider character customization. It's simply character progression. There is a difference.

Now for the sake of argument if there was 100 Ranger AA's and 50 were for melee Rangers and 50 were for Ranged Rangers and you had to choose between the two? Then yes that is customization...to a degree.

[Spitty]

When AA first came out, it definitely was a system intended to customize one's character to fit the playstyle of the account owner. Reason being, it took a damned long time to get an AA - 4 hours was a decent solo AA, 2.5 hours doing AE groups wasn't bad. If you wanted 50 AA, you invested something like 150 hours to get that and not everyone spent those AA in the same fashion.

Later on, when an AA point was a 15 minute event, people had enough banked to spend them on anything worthwhile and the custom aspect of it was nullified.

I suppose I'm not fundamentally opposed to implementing some AA after a couple years of Velious, but oh boy would the devs need to be careful about what's put in. Apply the wrong set of AA and suddenly a lot of Velious raiding can be locked up with one group.

[Acillatem]

If AA's were introduced, I do agree it would have to be in conjunction with custom content. As they stand by themselves, introducing themselves "as is" would be overpowering for Classic thru Velious.

However when AA's were first introduced, as Spitty and myself have said it most definitely was intended to be a way to customize your character:

At level 51 and higher, players can now toggle their experience gain between advancing level or alternate abilities. The flow can be set in increments of 10%. This allows level 60 players to continue to develop their characters as well as differentiate themselves from other members of their same class.

Unfortunately, becuz of no restrictions or modifications, everyone just took the same cookie-cutter paths in the beginning.

Which is why I had suggested a cap per Tier, as well as randomizing initial Tier distribution. By making a "random" prerequisite, you randomize the player pool so that not every WIZ goes Run3/Regen3/Mental Clarity3/Manaburn from the get-go. Using WIZ racing to Manaburn as an example, with randomization, might instead look like this:

WIZ 1: Innate CR3 /Regen3/ Spell Casting Subtelety3 /Mental Clarity3/ Exodus /Manaburn
WIZ 2: Innate STR3 /Regen3/ Spell Casting Fury3 /Mental Clarity3/ Quick Evac3 /Manaburn.

With italicized AA's being the random "pre-requisite". By then capping AA totals in general, you will have a truly "customized" pool of Wizards on P99.

Would apply to all classes obviously, just used WIZ as an example.

As far as the argument of: "Well capping it at 100 AAs would just cause people to cry for more", we all came into this with the expectation of it pretty much ending at Velious so anything extra is just that - extra.

But something like this, in conjunction with custom content (I remember, and really enjoyed the thread Falkun necro'd) would be great.

Of course - we are all just brainstorming so /shrug.

[Jacquouille]

This is classic EQ, if you want mod go play somewhere else !

[webrunner5]

The biggest problem I see on P1999 is there is not many Hybrids that play long term. Ranger, Pally top the list. I know one of the main problems is the XP penality on them, but Rangers and Pally's are pretty much a broken class on here.

And Velious, other than Panic Animal for a Ranger, is not going to help them much either. AA's helped a Ranger probably the most just with the Endless Quiver AA alone. Extended Tracking also.

This game has WAY too many Druids, Shamans, Necro's. Hardly any mid level tanks, like 12 Wizards, and a shit pot of Epic Rogues now. Pretty lop sided if you ask me.

[fadetree]

Yah, AM3/EQ functionality was pretty significant, to put it mildly.

[falkun]

as well as randomizing initial Tier distribution. By making a "random" prerequisite, you randomize the player pool so that not every WIZ goes Run3/Regen3/Mental Clarity3/Manaburn from the get-go. Using WIZ racing to Manaburn as an example, with randomization, might instead look like this:

WIZ 1: Innate CR3 /Regen3/ Spell Casting Subtelety3 /Mental Clarity3/ Exodus /Manaburn
WIZ 2: Innate STR3 /Regen3/ Spell Casting Fury3 /Mental Clarity3/ Quick Evac3 /Manaburn.

You've now "customized" the 2 wizards by forcing one to be inherently inferior to another. The reason those initial paths were picked is because it was proven to provide the biggest bang for the AA point.

My issue with the AA system is:
1) You could get them all.
2) They greatly improved some classes (RNG EQ+AM3, BRD FM, WIZ crit)
3) Some were downright overpowered: 6 MB wizard groups in Kunark = gg

But I'm not sure I would be unbiased enough to make the judgment call for "class defining/improving" versus "overpowered" AAs.

[Ferok]

Manaburn had a use-case that needed to be dealt with. Aside from that, it was hardly overpowered. It was eventually nerfed, and was no longer an issue.

[Picked]

You've now "customized" the 2 wizards by forcing one to be inherently inferior to another. The reason those initial paths were picked is because it was proven to provide the biggest bang for the AA point.

My issue with the AA system is:
1) You could get them all.
2) They greatly improved some classes (RNG EQ+AM3, BRD FM, WIZ crit)
3) Some were downright overpowered: 6 MB wizard groups in Kunark = gg

But I'm not sure I would be unbiased enough to make the judgment call for "class defining/improving" versus "overpowered" AAs.

Ya it may have "intended" to be a customization tool but like I said if they made it where you couldn't get certain AA's because you chose a different AA then there is validity to that. Doesn't matter how hard they were to get, that doesn't really change anything. Certainly doesn't change the fact that some AA's gave a lot more bang for their buck and were bought first by 99.9% of the population. That isn't customization. It's progression. Everyone could have them all. Whether or not they did is beside the point.


Manaburn had a use-case that needed to be dealt with. Aside from that, it was hardly overpowered. It was eventually nerfed, and was no longer useful at all.

There fixed it for you! I hated the change. It was one thing Wizards were known for. Outside of MB and ports there wasn't much of a parade to be had.

[Reiker000]

Ya I don't get the whole "cats on the moon" reference myself. I thought Luclin had some of the best raiding of all the expansions in EQ. It was diverse. You had Sseru, Emperor Ssrarzha, THO, The Burrower, XTC, those all dropped great loot. Then you have Vex Thael, while I admit was a little monotonous it was still pretty damn fun. Not to mention the cool loot it had.

There was a ton of items people pined for out of VT. Wasn't the same old, increased stats, +hp + mana stuff. It was cool effects, cool graphics.
Well, you see, people call Luclin "cats on the moon" because the expansion featured primarily a race of cat people living on the moon. Which of course, is ridiculous.

Some of Luclin was fun, some of it was awful. I would put LIS in the awful category. So many farming time sinks just to get to the fight, then you pretty much stare at a wall for an hour until it's dead. The fight was pretty hectic for a shaman and it was still boring. It's probably the single best "shaman" fight of the game though, requiring you to juggle a 3 minute slow / curse cures / dps (dots) / canni / torpor for a long time. I'd always be in the top three of dps charts while also keeping up slows/heals/cure/etc.

Ssra (the entire zone) was really fun, no complaints. This was the gem of Luclin.

VT was so awful I don't even want to talk about it. What a piece of shit ending. Up there with Druzzil's "lol I send u back in time nothing u did happened but u keep lewtz etc trololol"

[Ferok]

Luclin also didn't trivialize old world content, which is key I think. Planes of Power, on the other hand, made anything not Planes of Power largely irrelevant.

AA's, such as they were, really just allowed for minor progression of a character. They were no more game altering than equipment upgrades, which aren't available at a certain point. At least, in Luclin.

On the topic of custom content, I think as long as you keep the level capped at 60 and don't go about implementing a ton of game-breaking droppable items, you're in good shape for keeping things classic, or at least keeping classic-era dungeons/raids relevant. I don't think AA's break anything.

But this is all well after Velious, IMO.

[Kope]

To put in Luclin with a classic feel you'd also have to drastically lower the ZEMs of any luclin zone so the leveling feel stays the same as well.

[Picked]

Well, you see, people call Luclin "cats on the moon" because the expansion featured primarily a race of cat people living on the moon. Which of course, is ridiculous.

Some of Luclin was fun, some of it was awful. I would put LIS in the awful category. So many farming time sinks just to get to the fight, then you pretty much stare at a wall for an hour until it's dead. The fight was pretty hectic for a shaman and it was still boring. It's probably the single best "shaman" fight of the game though, requiring you to juggle a 3 minute slow / curse cures / dps (dots) / canni / torpor for a long time. I'd always be in the top three of dps charts while also keeping up slows/heals/cure/etc.

Ssra (the entire zone) was really fun, no complaints. This was the gem of Luclin.

VT was so awful I don't even want to talk about it. What a piece of shit ending. Up there with Druzzil's "lol I send u back in time nothing u did happened but u keep lewtz etc trololol"

Cat race being the Kerran's or whatever it was? I'm so used to the Vah Shir being referred too as cats but they didn't come out until LoYkesha right? Or am I more effed up than a pile of coat hangers here?

I do agree VT was painful at times, but to me that's what generated the most fun. Sitting in a room clearing for hours brings up a lot of funny stuff and comical ways to kill the time. It's like grinding you don't know somebody very well on an MMO until you have been in a grind group with them for 4 or 5 hours straight. When it's just wham bam thank you mam and get your loots there really isn't a lot of time for that. Which most people find value in. To each his own I suppose.

But yes I agree Ssra temple was the gem of Luclin. Would be nice to reverse the loots and difficulty of VT with Ssra temple. Get the VT items off the name in Ssra and the other things from Ssra drop in VT. Of course the annoying key can be cut in half as well if u ask me

[Brutal_X]

Vah Shir came in Luclin :P

[Picked]

lol that explains a LOT then! haha it's just been too long ago. I have a hard time remembering what I did yesterday let alone 12 years ago

[Acillatem]

You've now "customized" the 2 wizards by forcing one to be inherently inferior to another. The reason those initial paths were picked is because it was proven to provide the biggest bang for the AA point.

Looking at the allocation of the first 25ish AAs, ya one had a better run of the dice, but I'm not saying that should be the AA cap, I was just using an example of 2 WIZ racing for Manaburn. After that they could go get other AAs, and in conjunction with a cap, would probably have SIMILAR AA paths, with small differences (ie the Innate CR for example).

If you limit the number of AAs by TYPE (ie General/Archtype/Class), you force people to make decisions. And if ONE of those decisions is random, it still allows people to get SOME of what they want while at the same time differentiating yourself from most of the others of your class type in some small way.

[Spitty]

Star Wars Galaxies tried to implement a random modifier in skill tables.

It didn't end well.

I, for one, would be pissed if I had to spend some of my limited number of AA points on useless stats or skills because some serverside RNG decided I needed 5 points of CHA.

[Kika Maslyaka]

for AA system to be meaningful for a "classic feel", it will need to be:

1. capped
2. redesigned from the scratch

[Ferok]

If you're going to cap AA's, don't put them in at all. In Luclin, PoP.. it didnt matter if you had 40 AA's or 400. There were very few essential AA's and they were accessible very quickly. Beyond those, diminishing returns applied quickly. At some point, you were leveling up innate charisma as a warrior.

I have no idea why people want capped AA's. None.

[Kika Maslyaka]

so it would be more about customization and less about endless grind to get them all

[Acillatem]

If you cap them, you force people to choose rather than just get them all.

Without some form of randomization tho, you once again run into "cookie-cutter" syndrome, where everyone will choose the same path.

I agree with Spitty's sentiments regarding "shit I got /randomed into Innate CHA? WTF?". Maybe the random one can be tailored by class to not be "useless".

There will still be many similarities by class, but with caps and variance, it would create an AA system as it was originally intended to do (differentiate yourself from others of your class).

[Kika Maslyaka]

the AA paths/choices would need to be design better to be useful, so there are actually more than just 1 cookie cutter build. 9at least 2 or 3)

The problem of course lies with inherit EQ classic ultra specialized mechanics. Take cleric for example - you can't offer a cleric one path that improves healing and another path that improves anything else - the healing will be instantly preferable. And any cleric which didn't choose healing, would be considered an idiot. Unless of course the paths you can chose would not include healing improvements at all.... But its hard to imagine such paths...

Thats why i said system has to be redesigned from the scratch for it to work properly. Which most likely not going to happen ;)

[Acillatem]

Wishful thinking am I right? lol

[Ferok]

so it would be more about customization and less about endless grind to get them all

Why is this better? You never needed to get them all. Some people choose to. But really, there were only a couple essential AA's.

"Customization" sounds more like Diablo 2 than Everquest IMO. Doesn't really have a classic sound to it.

[Ferok]

If you cap them, you force people to choose rather than just get them all.

Without some form of randomization tho, you once again run into "cookie-cutter" syndrome, where everyone will choose the same path.

I agree with Spitty's sentiments regarding "shit I got /randomed into Innate CHA? WTF?". Maybe the random one can be tailored by class to not be "useless".

There will still be many similarities by class, but with caps and variance, it would create an AA system as it was originally intended to do (differentiate yourself from others of your class).

You're creating elaborate solutions to problems that don't exist. I think AA's did exactly what they were intended to do; provide additional progression options for players beyond raiding.

[Acillatem]

They did HALF of what they were intended to do. The other half, as stated by Sony's description of Alternate Advancement, was to "differentiate yourself from others of your class". That didn't happen becuz everyone chose the same path, and/or was able to get all the AA's that mattered.

Just like regular levels - it just became a timesink where some people finished faster than others, but in the end it was all the same.

[Ferok]

They did HALF of what they were intended to do. The other half, as stated by Sony's description of Alternate Advancement, was to "differentiate yourself from others of your class". That didn't happen becuz everyone chose the same path, and/or was able to get all the AA's that mattered.

Just like regular levels - it just became a timesink where some people finished faster than others, but in the end it was all the same.

They worked for that as well. If you had 200 AA's but casual gear, and someone else had 50 AA's but raid gear, you had some decided benefits where they had others. That's why it's "alternate", as an alternate to raiding. Of course, you could (and many did) do both.

It was not intended to be customization Diablo 2/WoW style. How do I know that? Because it was clearly not designed in a way that had tradeoffs.

Additionally, I still am failing to see what the actual problem here is.