Monk Epic Fist... is it REALLY that good?

[Nordenwatch]

I was soloing HS on my monk and I was thinking about the epic fist. So far I had been using fist/SoS til major shielding and then switch to fist/AC for the stunning blow proc, but I switched to ac/sos and it seems to be better DPS.

I know that the epic fist is ridiculously fast, but if you think about the amount of haste percentage that you have you benefit much more from the haste by having slower weps. So by using AC and having 40% haste from the epic and 27 from the RBG, i have 67% haste. This haste on AC (15/25) makes it 16.625 delay if I'm doing my math correctly. So the wep becomes a 15/16.625 with stunning blow. The fist is 9/16 before haste and 9/10.64 after.

So is the whole idea of using fist/SoS flawed? I know tons of monks do it... am I doing something wrong in the calculations?

[Metallikus]

i roll around with ac / sos unless i don't want to tank then ill go fist / sos.

[Ele]

You are leaving out the damage bonus which is applied each time a fist hit goes off, and the fists will swing more than 3 times versus 2 swings of AC (16.625/10.64). The more swings also means more double attacks, which means more damage bonus. Fist also equals more melee push.

[Treats]

I know that the epic fist is ridiculously fast, but if you think about the amount of haste percentage that you have you benefit much more from the haste by having slower weps.

Adamantite Club - 67% haste = 14.970059880239521 delay

Epic Fist - 67% haste = 9.580838323353294

It does not matter how fast or slow the weapon is.

The delay reduction factor is the same, it does not matter what the delay of the weapon is.

10 delay weapon - 0% haste = 10 delay = 60 swings per minute
10 delay weapon - 100% haste = 5 delay = 120 swings per minute

20 delay weapon - 0% haste = 20 delay = 30 swings per minute
20 delay weapon - 100% haste = 10 delay = 60 swings per minute

Only the ratio of the weapon matters but as has been stated the damage bonus does increase the DPS on slower weapons because it is being applied more often.

[Orruar]

You are leaving out the damage bonus which is applied each time a fist hit goes off, and the fists will swing more than 3 times versus 2 swings of AC (16.625/10.64). The more swings also means more double attacks, which means more damage bonus. Fist also equals more melee push.

Except that damage bonus also scales with weapon delay, does it not? Double attack has nothing to do with anything. Yes, you swing more times with a lower delay weapon, but double attack does not increase this ratio at all. Do all weapon types push the same? I seem to recall blunt weapons pushing more than others, but this may have been an urban legend.

[Treats]

More double attack chances will give you more times to apply the damage bonus.

50% chance to double attack - 10 damage bonus:

20 delay weapon = 45 swings per minute = 450 damage

10 delay weapon = 90 swings per minute = 900 damage

[godbox]

might have misread your post but i think what your doing wrong is SoS (or AC) mainhand and fist offhand. Pretty sure thats backwards

[Nordenwatch]

might have misread your post but i think what your doing wrong is SoS (or AC) mainhand and fist offhand. Pretty sure thats backwards

That's not what I'm doing at all

[Nordenwatch]

Adamantite Club - 67% haste = 14.970059880239521 delay

Epic Fist - 67% haste = 9.580838323353294

It does not matter how fast or slow the weapon is.

The delay reduction factor is the same, it does not matter what the delay of the weapon is.

10 delay weapon - 0% haste = 10 delay = 60 swings per minute
10 delay weapon - 100% haste = 5 delay = 120 swings per minute

20 delay weapon - 0% haste = 20 delay = 30 swings per minute
20 delay weapon - 100% haste = 10 delay = 60 swings per minute

Only the ratio of the weapon matters but as has been stated the damage bonus does increase the DPS on slower weapons because it is being applied more often.

Yeah the delay reduction is the same, but higher delay weps generally have higher damage and a better ratio for being slower. For example: 15/25 (ac) or 17/28 (sos) is a .6 ratio and a .607 ratio respectively, while the epic fist is a .56 ratio. (9/16) And since the delay itself is larger, the reduction of time between swings is larger per haste percentage point. 1% of haste for a 9/16 wep is 0.08 delay off, while for a AC its 0.125 delay off.

While damage bonus is being applied more often, does it offset the difference in damage bonus that exists between a higher delay wep and a lower delay wep? I'm not entirely sure what dmg bonus fists have but I assume its fairly low cause the delay is so low.

[Nordenwatch]

You are leaving out the damage bonus which is applied each time a fist hit goes off, and the fists will swing more than 3 times versus 2 swings of AC (16.625/10.64). The more swings also means more double attacks, which means more damage bonus. Fist also equals more melee push.

Does double attack really work like this? I was under the assumption that even if double attack goes off, if the delay of the offhand hasn't been refreshed yet it wont swing with the SoS or AC or whatever you're using in your offhand.

[Ele]

Does double attack really work like this? I was under the assumption that even if double attack goes off, if the delay of the offhand hasn't been refreshed yet it wont swing with the SoS or AC or whatever you're using in your offhand. I'd have to assume this is the case, otherwise why would someone not use a wurmy in the offhand for the 25 dmg hit at epic fist speed?

Double Attack is not the same as Duel Wield, and Duel Wield is not tied to your primary anyway.

[Nordenwatch]

Double Attack is not the same as Duel Wield, and Duel Wield is not tied to your primary anyway.

Ah right, I confused them. The number of double attacks would be more for fists, but the strength of the attack itself would be stronger with the AC. Its hard to figure out which would be better, I mean its obvious that you'd rather have a double attack with a wep that hits harder, but it really depends on the dmg bonus...

Has anyone done parsing comparisons? If not I think I'm going to have to run some tests... anyone know a good parsing tool?

[Ele]

Ah right, I confused them. The number of double attacks would be more for fists, but the strength of the attack itself would be stronger with the AC. Its hard to figure out which would be better, I mean its obvious that you'd rather have a double attack with a wep that hits harder, but it really depends on the dmg bonus...

Has anyone done parsing comparisons? If not I think I'm going to have to run some tests... anyone know a good parsing tool?

GamParse

http://gambosoft.com/Pages/Downloads.htm

[Cippofra]

Imo the parsers dont tell you much. Even at high levels your damage is very inconsistent unless you can get measure it over a long battle with no chasing or moving around (like having people heal you while you wack at a high level guard). Just experiment with it and it'll be obvious. Everyone goes fist main hand unless they have a ridiculous weapon like the 16/22 sky items. In the situation you propose where you almost have a 1/1 ratio for both weapons, math/parsing/experimenting isn't even necessary. Obvious winner is the low delay fist.

[Nordenwatch]

Imo the parsers dont tell you much. Even at high levels your damage is very inconsistent unless you can get measure it over a long battle with no chasing or moving around (like having people heal you while you wack at a high level guard). Just experiment with it and it'll be obvious. Everyone goes fist main hand unless they have a ridiculous weapon like the 16/22 sky items. In the situation you propose where you almost have a 1/1 ratio for both weapons, math/parsing/experimenting isn't even necessary. Obvious winner is the low delay fist.

How is it obvious? The ratio for the AC is better. I experimented with it in HS (obviously not representative, but still) and AC/SOS seemed better than fist/AC. Its not obvious at all, if it was obvious I wouldn't be doing math and asking all these questions

[Ravager]

Priest of Discord would be the perfect mob to gamparse this info on. Just bring a cleric or shaman to heal you while you dps it down, it's a nice long fight and should give you the numbers you need.

[Treats]

For example: 15/25 (ac) or 17/28 (sos) is a .6 ratio and a .607 ratio respectively, while the epic fist is a .56 ratio. (9/16) And since the delay itself is larger, the reduction of time between swings is larger per haste percentage point. 1% of haste for a 9/16 wep is 0.08 delay off, while for a AC its 0.125 delay off.

This is not true. Think about what you are saying:

A 100 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by 5 seconds.

A 10 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by .5 seconds.

So because the 100 delay weapon dropped 4.5 seconds more then the 10 delay weapon it is better? No.

100/100 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
6 Swings per minute
210 * 6 = 1260 DPM

100/100 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage bonus
12 Swings per minute
210 * 12 = 2520 DPM

10/10 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
60 Swings per minute
30 * 60 = 1800 DPM

10/10 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage Bonus
120 Swings per minute
30 * 120 = 3600 DPM

You can see here the reduction time does not matter. The 100 delay weapon dropped by 4.5 seconds and the 10 delay weapon dropped by .5 seconds yet both of their DPM's have the same increase (doubled).

Here is what Copeland's shows:

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Wu's Tranquil Fist Primary (16/22)
1550 DPM
48 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Epic Fist Primary (9/16)
1516 DPM
66 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Adamantite Club Primary (15/25)
1308 DPM
44.24 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Stave of Shielding Primary (17/28)
1268 DPM
37.71 Swings per minute

[webrunner5]

Pretty much settles that debate.

[Orruar]

Treats, it would appear that you believe all weapons have the same damage bonus. Is that based on anything? I thought weapons had a damage bonus that scaled with delay, meaning the AC would have a higher damage bonus than the ultra fast monk fist.

And based on the numbers you posted, it would appear the monk fist actually has more damage bonus than the ada club, and nearly equal db to the SoS. That doesn't seem right at all.

[Orruar]

Also in the numbers you posted, the swings per minute are not in proportion to the weapon delays. If the monk fist swings per minute is correct, then the ada club should be 39.6.

[Nordenwatch]

This is not true. Think about what you are saying:

A 100 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by 5 seconds.

A 10 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by .5 seconds.

So because the 100 delay weapon dropped 4.5 seconds more then the 10 delay weapon it is better? No.

100/100 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
6 Swings per minute
210 * 6 = 1260 DPM

100/100 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage bonus
12 Swings per minute
210 * 12 = 2520 DPM

10/10 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
60 Swings per minute
30 * 60 = 1800 DPM

10/10 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage Bonus
120 Swings per minute
30 * 120 = 3600 DPM

You can see here the reduction time does not matter. The 100 delay weapon dropped by 4.5 seconds and the 10 delay weapon dropped by .5 seconds yet both of their DPM's have the same increase (doubled).

Here is what Copeland's shows:

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Wu's Tranquil Fist Primary (16/22)
1550 DPM
48 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Epic Fist Primary (9/16)
1516 DPM
66 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Adamantite Club Primary (15/25)
1308 DPM
44.24 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Stave of Shielding Primary (17/28)
1268 DPM
37.71 Swings per minute

Ah, I see. I guess the question becomes not really a matter of haste but if AC/SoS is better than fist/AC or fist/SoS, because of the delay difference I'd like to believe that if the mob was significantly lower level (low blue, or LB), AC/SOS would be better because you'd be landing more of the hits.

I think the fist shines in that since its extremely fast it doesn't suffer as much from missed hits.

I'm still planning on running some tests, if the difference between ac/sos and fist/ac isn't HUGE i think while soloing ac/sos has en edge, it procs much more often while in the primary and the procs are very helpful.

[Ele]

Treats, it would appear that you believe all weapons have the same damage bonus. Is that based on anything? I thought weapons had a damage bonus that scaled with delay, meaning the AC would have a higher damage bonus than the ultra fast monk fist.

And based on the numbers you posted, it would appear the monk fist actually has more damage bonus than the ada club, and nearly equal db to the SoS. That doesn't seem right at all.

Two-Handed weapons consider delay as part of the damage bonus, not One-Handed weapons.

[Orruar]

Ah, I see. I guess the question becomes not really a matter of haste but if AC/SoS is better than fist/AC or fist/SoS, because of the delay difference I'd like to believe that if the mob was significantly lower level (low blue, or LB), AC/SOS would be better because you'd be landing more of the hits.

I think the fist shines in that since its extremely fast it doesn't suffer as much from missed hits.

I'm still planning on running some tests, if the difference between ac/sos and fist/ac isn't HUGE i think while soloing ac/sos has en edge, it procs much more often while in the primary and the procs are very helpful.

Once again, no. All other things being equal, the hit ratio will be the same with a fist as with a slower weapon. The fist may lose less damage from a miss, but that will be exactly offset by the fact you have more misses due to more swings. The only important factors to consider are the delay and damage bonus. Since apparently damage bonus is constant over all delays with a 1h, the fist should be better in most cases.

The only real question to consider is whether the damage from damage bonus overcomes the improved ratio on ada club. When you have very high atk, such as with avatar, that may tip it towards the ada club, since more of your damage is coming from the weapon damage and less from the damage bonus. But maybe not. Would need to parse to tell.

[Treats]

Also in the numbers you posted, the swings per minute are not in proportion to the weapon delays. If the monk fist swings per minute is correct, then the ada club should be 39.6.

The Copeland's numbers have Double Attack % factored in.

Epic fist is better than anything but Wu's Tranquil Fist because of the delay and damage bonus even though it has a worse ratio.

There is a point where a slower weapon with a better ratio will overtake Epic Fist but the only item to my knowledge is the Wu's Fist until Velious.

[Orruar]

The Copeland's numbers have Double Attack % factored in.

Epic fist is better than anything but Wu's Tranquil Fist because of the delay and damage bonus even though it has a worse ratio.

There is a point where a slower weapon with a better ratio will overtake Epic Fist but the only item to my knowledge is the Wu's Fist until Velious.

Double attack % isn't going to change with fist vs 1hb, so the proportions should still hold.

[Visual]

I sold my Tstaff when i got my epic and it was honestly a poor decision. fists & sos seem to do the same if not less dmg, no stun/dd, and you get riposted alot more in the event u r tanking.

[Orruar]

I sold my Tstaff when i got my epic and it was honestly a poor decision. fists & sos seem to do the same if not less dmg, no stun/dd, and you get riposted alot more in the event u r tanking.

Good point. If you're tanking, I'd imagine 2h is always better. Less riposte damage from mobs and more riposte damage to mobs.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Allow me to demonstrate with pictures.

Other Fist:
http://cdn.theblemish.com/images/2008/08/lily-allen-punch.jpg

Monk Epic Fist:
http://www.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1140348!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_370/shutterstock-13-ae51f145551-original-web.jpg

[Handull]

don't forget that h2h has a lower skill cap than 1hb/2hb, aka you will have less atk with fist in primary. that said, i still use fist/ac and fist/sos depending

[Nagash]

Genuine question as my monk is only level 21: can't you equip the monk epic on your hand slot so you can click the 40% haste effect while still using weapons or is the 40% haste a proc? I believed it was a song effect ala bard.

Nagash/Petitpas

[Ele]

Genuine question as my monk is only level 21: can't you equip the monk epic on your hand slot so you can click the 40% haste effect while still using weapons or is the 40% haste a proc? I believed it was a song effect ala bard.

Nagash/Petitpas

Equipping the epic in your glove slot changes your bare fists ratio to 9/16.

You can then right click the epic to get a 40% spell/song haste that lasts a few ticks.

[Handull]

from first hand experience, you can't click the monk epic til 50. robe you can click at least at 47, tho that isn't the min, just when i got my RotWF

edit, sorry, got epic at 47, robe was at 40? that sounds right.

[Vicatin]

Anyone have any parse info on tstaff vs epic fist + SoS or AC? Kind of curious how much difference there is. I am assuming a significant increase.

[Ryba]

no parse info here but t staff plus epic haste is better than any droppable 1h combo with epic haste, including h2h. 2hb skill cap is higher and dmg bonus is higher than with h2h. That means much higher guaranteed minimums with higher hit ratios. The epic is for song haste, not primarily for weapon replacement, unless you have crap.

not only that, if you are "epically-fisting" a raid target that gets turned unexpectedly, you will be shattered by ripostes before you can turn auto attack off.

2hb is the tits, from 20-60. Unless you are trying to roleplay or something, in which case you have other problems to focus on

[Vicatin]

no parse info here but t staff plus epic haste is better than any droppable 1h combo with epic haste, including h2h. 2hb skill cap is higher and dmg bonus is higher than with h2h. That means much higher guaranteed minimums with higher hit ratios. The epic is for song haste, not primarily for weapon replacement, unless you have crap.

not only that, if you are "epically-fisting" a raid target that gets turned unexpectedly, you will be shattered by ripostes before you can turn auto attack off.

2hb is the tits, from 20-60. Unless you are trying to roleplay or something, in which case you have other problems to focus on

I think you'll be in the minority here on this one. I agree with ripostes, but that can be avoided and isnt really part of the dmg debate. I have been told my numerous epic monks that fist + ac/sos is superior dmg to tstaff, but by how much is the question.

[Ryba]

http://i50.tinypic.com/34sjn2g.jpg

from eq dpm calculator and borne out by personal experience. also, ripostes should be considered, because they happen. nobody is good enough to not get riposted, so why pretend they don't happen when you're theorizing.

eq dpm is probably not a perfect match with p1999's weapon damage algorithms, but the t staff still comes out a full 300dpm or 5dps ahead of fist/sos. Even if they got it slightly wrong, you are looking at setups that are at least equivalent. For my money, I will take the +stun and better defensive setup.

[Vicatin]

Nice, appreciate the graph. Good stuff, exactly what i am looking for.

Should have epic in the next few weeks. Will test this out myself and report back here when done :)

[Versus]

Make a graph for Epic fist + wu's fist of mastery vs. Bostaff, stat.

[Treats]

from eq dpm calculator and borne out by personal experience. also, ripostes should be considered, because they happen. nobody is good enough to not get riposted, so why pretend they don't happen when you're theorizing.

eq dpm is probably not a perfect match with p1999's weapon damage algorithms, but the t staff still comes out a full 300dpm or 5dps ahead of fist/sos. Even if they got it slightly wrong, you are looking at setups that are at least equivalent. For my money, I will take the +stun and better defensive setup.

Ripostes are a low factor in measuring damage per second. When you are fighting a mob from behind he cannot block/dodge/riposte/etc (this is why you fight from behind when you can.)

EQ DPM does NOT use the correct damage bonus, those numbers are faulty. It probably also has a formula for Triple Attack.

Epic Fist/SoS is better than the Tranquil Staff, if you have proof otherwise post your logs from P99.

[Splorf22]

EQ DPM does NOT use the correct damage bonus, those numbers are faulty. It probably also has a formula for Triple Attack.

I think you can hand edit it though. At 60 you'll get a 17 point damage bonus from the tstaff and 11 for the epic fist in the primary hand.

[Ryba]

My point about ripostes is that they mysteriously vanish when theorizing, yet appear when you're fighting. They are left out because they are hard to model, but that shouldn't make you dismiss them entirely.

If eqdpm weights triple attack, then it would be starting at level 60. This wouldn't explain the difference in damage at level 55.

Not understanding why it is my responsibility to disprove your unproven point. Even if EQ dpm is significantly wrong, TStaff is hovering right around and possibly above fists/stave. To me, tstaff gets the nod for stun and less frequent riposte.

[Treats]

Not understanding why it is my responsibility to disprove your unproven point. Even if EQ dpm is significantly wrong, TStaff is hovering right around and possibly above fists/stave. To me, tstaff gets the nod for stun and less frequent riposte.

It is significantly wrong, the Damage bonus is off by 10.

[fishingme]

My experiences with the T-staff, albeit I don't have any numbers I just always kept track of the numbers. But I found having 1hand weapons as apposed to the T-staff to be better for damage. Not to mention, as a monk you're the puller and the time you should be spending on a mob before pulling another is probably like 4-5 seconds.

[Pan]

A few notes:

The damage calculation here vs. live is really quite different. The saying "speed kills" does not apply as heavily here as on live.

I also believe that there's a max cap on how low a delay can go. Apocryphally, it seems to be 9.

From 55 to 58 or so, I've been running with a 9/20 in the main hand and the 15/25 in the offhand (not acquired the 17/28 yet). Self-buffed (CoF & epics), that loadout parses (over time and NOT counting the 60dd from the stuns - I'm not a believer in counting procs toward dps for a variety of reasons) within ~1 pct of the fist damage, give or take. When I've got chanter/shaman haste, that loadout runs about 3pct better. I can only attribute that to a minimum delay cap (coupled with the lower h2h skills vs. 1hb). T-staff parses 10-15pct lower for me at those levels.

Further, running doublestunners (when soloing or with a good tank) really seems to make a difference in survivability - a stunned mob is not doing damage (nor is it running off to find buddies after it turns). It's not particularly reliable, but over time it makes a big difference in my efficiency.

P.S. Nobody should be interested in anything but real, P99 data. Copeland's and all other calculators/equations that assume a mirror of live are pretty useless in a conversation like this (in which the margins/differences are pretty thin and are what's in question anyway).

[Ryba]

P.S. Nobody should be interested in anything but real, P99 data. Copeland's and all other calculators/equations that assume a mirror of live are pretty useless in a conversation like this (in which the margins/differences are pretty thin and are what's in question anyway).


That thin margin between outputs in the EQdpm chart is a result of a precise but inaccurate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_and_accuracy) equation. Even though p1999 isn't using the live model, it is a decent approximation. So even though the EQdpm chart is wrong (and it is, e.g. damage bonus is off by up to 10), you can still see the weapon choices are roughly equivalent.

I also remember the (apocryphal) delay floor of 9, but since we are speculating, the rumor used to be that monk fists were the one exclusion to that limit. If this is the case on 99, epic fists trump tstaff.

I cannot imagine how you got a tstaff to parse at lower dps than a 9/20 1h. Also, not sure why you wouldn't factor an unresistable 120DD proc into your dps calculations. Can't really call my numbers suspect if this is what you're working with.

[Nordenwatch]

WTB T-Staff

[Treats]

Kanras: Lowered PC attack delay floor to 5 delay.

When I parsed the Bixie Sword Blade awhile ago with 100% haste it was showing a delay lower than 5.

Don't think there is a minimum.

[Pan]

That thin margin between outputs in the EQdpm chart is a result of a precise but inaccurate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_and_accuracy) equation. Even though p1999 isn't using the live model, it is a decent approximation. So even though the EQdpm chart is wrong (and it is, e.g. damage bonus is off by up to 10), you can still see the weapon choices are roughly equivalent.

I also remember the (apocryphal) delay floor of 9, but since we are speculating, the rumor used to be that monk fists were the one exclusion to that limit. If this is the case on 99, epic fists trump tstaff.

I cannot imagine how you got a tstaff to parse at lower dps than a 9/20 1h. Also, not sure why you wouldn't factor an unresistable 120DD proc into your dps calculations. Can't really call my numbers suspect if this is what you're working with.

EQdpm is irrelevant to this conversation. EQdpm may approximate how it worked on live, but has nothing at all to do with how it works on P99.

Further, EQdpm, Copeland's, and the rest of them didn't ever have access to live equations anyway and were trying to approximate what was going on in that world. A guess mapped on observed data. So that calls into question the precision and accuracy of their observations as well as the math they used to represent the replication of that data.

Therefore, I'm not calling your numbers suspect. I'm calling them non-existent. Until it's established that damage is calculated here exactly as it was on live (and that Copelands/EQdpm/et al was an accurate model - which was hotly contested in the Rangers Glade, Steelwarriors, the Safehouse, Monklybusiness among other places), EQdpm is useless. It's worse than useless when trying to compare two weapons (or weapon sets).

Finally, precision and accuracy are terms that are used in data measurement (collection/acquisition), not in data interpretation (and the subsequent model building). So if you're talking about precision and accuracy with respect to EQdpm, you can only be talking about how its makers collected data use to come up with their approximation equation(s). If you're talking about the model itself, you're misusing the terms.

I never claimed I tested a T-staff vs. (only) the Sarnak Battle Hammer. I tested the T-staff vs a SBH in the main with an ADH in the off. What, did you assume that I'd put a GLS in my offhand for the parses? Seriously, though, the question's mostly been fist & good offhand vs. T-staff. I threw in the SBH as an alternative to the fist into the mix.

As far as procs go, recall the 60dd on the ADC when you're considering them. Further, even at (a too generous) 2 procs per minute (on each), the difference only works out to be 2dps. The reason that I leave out procs in my calculations is that they're too streaky to be considered when talking about dps (soloing I've had as many as 8 T-staff procs on a single mob - and gone some number of mobs in a row without a single proc - all hail the rng). If you're talking about DPM, I suppose I'd think about counting them. I'm wondering about sustained damage which is a different question from unreliable burst damage. YMMV, but whatever the case, I don't think it's enough to put it over the top. That said, the 2x ranger 625DDs deserve seperate consideration. So there's a threshold somewhere, obviously.

Finally mob level (and type?) need at least a nod in this conversation as do the previously mentioned ripostes (from the mob), your ripostes (or is this absolutely equiv curve to dps calculations?), and mob damage shields. Those should all be considered, at least, when choosing a loadout.

So the genesis of this all for me is that while I was leveling up, I thought the monks who had abandoned the T-staffs post-epic were nuts. So I decided to see for myself. My data showed that they were right.

I didn't mean to make this a pissy rebuttal to your post. I'm trying to understand the data that I've seen/am seeing and offering guesses about it.

This is what I guess so far:

1)- Speed doesn't kill the same way here as it does on live. (To wit, on live, an RFS owned an IFS by a wide margin - here not true.)
2)- H2H skill vs. 1hb (and 2hb) skill plays a significant role.
3)- There may be haste-percentage at which the in-game combat damage engine treats a 9/20 and a 9/16 as identical (save for the weapon skill check).

[Splorf22]

Some food for thought: P1999 seems to let you hit for 'median' damage quite a lot. I saw a monk post with some simple models and he suggested over half of the hits would be 'min' hits which doesn't seem to happen here.

[Ryba]

Didn't seem any pissier than my post. Don't worry, I don't get mad on the internet. I just leave :D


EQdpm is not a totally broken yardstick. It is definitely wrong, but definitely in the ballpark. "Worse than useless" describes an untestable hypothesis, which is what is generally put forward on forums. I'm only saying that an inaccurate model can still preserve the deltas of the accurate model.

EQdpm and Project1999 both approximate an EQ combat system that, though changed many times on live, never rearranged its core algorithms. So eqdpm and p99 have a transitive relation. You act like Eqdpm is a random die.

You don't seem to get the precision/accuracy thing in this situation, but I also see that I didn't explain myself well. EQdpm uses an equation that, because it is not an utterly failing model (use it and tell me its data does not correspond somewhere around "very well" with your experience), collects data that shows some amount of precision. It's outputs have undeniable correlation with the "real" values and with each other, although we can be dead certain they are not accurate. I guess I should have said "an equation that describes reality precisely but inaccurately" instead of "a precise but inaccurate equation?"

A guess mapped on observed data.

How is that not better than pure conjecture or a random number? In fact, this is exactly why we can derive that EQdpm has some precision. And if output values are skewed, they should skew nearly identically.

I'm not misusing any terms. It is simply not true that precision and accuracy are properties only of the methods they used to come up with the equation. You could measure those, too, but someone would probably have to pay you. I'm talking about the resemblance of EQdpm's educated guesses to data from the actual box. And obviously I am not presenting hard data from p99, I am only putting forward the idea that even if EQdpm data points are miles off, they are likely the same number of miles off, and in the same direction. So we get unusable single values, but useful ratios: congruence.

Also, I realized you didn't have a GLS in offhand. I figured I didn't even need to refer to your offhand to shoot down the idea of a 1h combo involving a 9/20 weapon outdamaging a tstaff. There is no level after 20 where that can happen. The combat system will never treat different starting delays as equivalent when hasted, because this would utterly break itemization. Assuming there is a delay floor, haste would calculate as a percentage of the difference between weapon delay and the floor instead of as a percentage of just your weapon delay. This would ensure that a 9/20 is never as good as a 9/16.

I don't know for sure which setup is better, but I can say for sure that monk epic fists are not some kind of undisputed champ of the dps mountain.

[Tasslehofp99]

To give you an idea of just how inconsistent monk DPS is at high levels with different weapon combinations: My highest recorded DPS on a 59 monk with 255 str and max haste was 121 with an imbued fighters staff. Fuck epic fists and AC/SOS! :D

[Pan]

EQdpm is not a totally broken yardstick.

It's not a yardstick at all. And that's my point and that's why the discussion is continuing. Perhaps I should have said it's not a micrometer which is the only thing that would settle this discussion (read real data here).

"Worse than useless" describes an untestable hypothesis...

Would you settle for equivalent to useless? What P99 hypothesis can you test with EQdps? When one is hypotesting, one requires relevant data. EQdps cannot falsify a hypothesis on P99.

"So eqdpm and p99 have a transitive relation. You act like Eqdpm is a random die."

In a transitive relationship, the curves would be the same shape and one could extrapolate accurately. This is not the case with EQdps. For the purposes of this thread, I'd say that EQdps is worse than a random die for the reason that people put unwarranted confidence in it (for this question). Were we to roll a die and give an answer, at least no one would have any confidence in the conclusions.

"You don't seem to get the precision/accuracy thing in this situation, but I also see that I didn't explain myself well. EQdpm uses an equation that, because it is not an utterly failing model (use it and tell me its data does not correspond somewhere around "very well" with your experience), collects data that shows some amount of precision. It's outputs have undeniable correlation with the "real" values and with each other, although we can be dead certain they are not accurate. I guess I should have said "an equation that describes reality precisely but inaccurately" instead of "a precise but inaccurate equation?" "

I'm not misusing any terms.

You don't seem to get that the way you used accuracy and precision (and the link that you provided) pertain to measurement and not modeling. Nobody I've worked with would conflate these two uses. Those are two different animals. If you me to agree to use the words in the same way that you for this conversation, I'll go with that and give you that EQdps will ballpark okay-ish. But the question of this thread requires real data to make a determination. Ballparking is not good enough. If it were, we'd be done.

I figured I didn't even need to refer to your offhand to shoot down the idea of a 1h combo involving a 9/20 weapon outdamaging a tstaff. There is no level after 20 where that can happen.

Pure assertion. Conflicts with what I have experienced.

The combat system will never treat different starting delays as equivalent when hasted, because this would utterly break itemization. Assuming there is a delay floor, haste would calculate as a percentage of the difference between weapon delay and the floor instead of as a percentage of just your weapon delay. This would ensure that a 9/20 is never as good as a 9/16.

Support this, too. I don't see any reason why the floor would not be a hard stop.

I don't know for sure which setup is better, but I can say for sure that monk epic fists are not some kind of undisputed champ of the dps mountain.

Support this with data.

____________________

It is an empirical question. And with Tasselhofp99's latest post, it gets murkier.

So let's test it.

I have a L58 monk epic-ed with CoF.

I propose I try 10 min runs on the PoD as well as a L50-ish player character (thinking this will give an insight into variation in some way) with the following loadouts:

Fist/ADC

SBH (is it warhammer?) - anyway, the 9/20 and ADC

T-staff (if I can find one to borrow)

IFS (if I can find one to borrow)

RFS (if I can find one to borrow)

Max haste with chanter or shaman haste. No other buffs.

No kicking, but lotta clicking to keep the fist haste fresh.

I'll post the results (and a link to the data) in a day or few.

Will separate procs from the dps but will included them in the dataset.


Any other suggestions for the test? What am I missing and is there anything I'm thinking about wrong in the proposed methodology?

Anyone going long on T-staffs and IFS? Could be a value changer.

[Vicatin]

Fist/ SoS needs to be added as well if possible.

[Pan]

Fist/ SoS needs to be added as well if possible.

Agree. Also fist/fist for the sake of completeness.

[Nordenwatch]

We should do this on a 60 monk for sense of what is best on the end game. Someone PL Pan to 60!

[Versus]

I'll volunteer to do this with any combination of weapons with the exception of 2x Wu's Fists of Mastery if someone will make the fancy chart thing

[Ryba]

I think we all know EQDpm is not a tool for parsing, so it isn't measuring anything in realtime. But you act like just because it isn't, it's outputs aren't based on real, quantified data from the game, e.g. haste, weapon damage and delay. You can map eqdpm's numbers to numbers from the game and then talk about its predictive precision and accuracy. Yeah, it isn't the dictionary definition of accuracy and precision, but it is a pretty minor cognitive leap I'm asking you to take here. The terms accuracy and precision can describe a simulation OR measurements taken by instrument. My only error here is that I don't actually have real numbers to justify what I'm saying, but that was admitted from the beginning.

There is no replacement for laboratory (in game) measurements, but their downside is that any mistakes you make are less likely to show up as systematic bias. In other words, it might be even harder to draw conclusions from in game data because it will be wrong in unreproducible ways. At least with a simulation, most confounding variables will cause skew of equal magnitude for high and low values.

We are dealing with a messy system here and I didn't want to make it seem like I know the answer. But barring the possibility of p99 being wildly wrong with its combat mechanics, we should expect similar performance from epic fist/whatever and epic hasted tstaff based on our limited, flawed data.

Also, I don't need any additional support for my idea of an asymptotic approach to the delay floor, other than that it would be totally unreasonable from a game design perspective to allow a 9/20 weapon to perform like a 9/16 weapon. It destroys the risk/reward structure the game is built around. Again, it is possible the code is actually hugely unfair about this, but it is not a hallmark of a successful game to stop rewarding effort by removing proper scaling as limits are approached. Your 9/20 should go to 9/13 and a 9/16 should go to 9/11 with 81% haste.

Not sure why it is my job to provide data while you can just bring anecdotes. EQDpm is still useful for ranking items--it has a well-tested internal precision and uses real item data as input values--though it fails to accurately model P1999 dps.

I love your idea of doing some real parsing. I hope you can find a way to control the environment enough to get meaningful numbers. I don't wanna fight here, because you are mostly right. A parse is pure data, all I have here is a simulacrum. But it isn't pure garbage.

[Splorf22]

elay floor, other than that it would be totally unreasonable from a game design perspective to allow a 9/20 weapon to perform like a 9/16 weapon. It destroys the risk/reward structure the game is built around. Again, it is possible the code is actually hugely unfair about this, but it is not a hallmark of a successful game to stop rewarding effort by removing proper scaling as limits are approached. Your 9/20 should go to 9/13 and a 9/16 should go to 9/11 with 81% haste.

I think you are making some bad assumptions here about how Verant would choose to design their game. After all, EQ in general is horribly unbalanced.

Also I don't buy your EQDPM arguments. Sure it's not *worthless*. However the goal here is to compare two values that are probably within 10-15% of each other. Rough estimation won't do that.

In other news I look forward to some Phisting parses.

[Ryba]

Yeah, everything I'm saying is backed up by some pretty tenuous assumptions. But it is still a little better than a collection of anecdotes.

The title is "Monk Epic Fist...is it REALLY that good?" I'm only saying that the answer is no, several other setups live in the same dps neighborhood, i.e. within 10% (or so). It will be very hard to parse out the real difference, even with game data. DPS is so conditional and the theoretical dps of these setups is so close that you are probably better off just picking the one you like.

If you are on a mission to find the min/maxer's grail setup down to 5 decimals, you can safely ignore everything I've said. If you were just unsure whether anything can compete with epic fist dps, I think the answer is yes.

Besides, innerflame is so much cooler with IFS or tstaff :D

[Fyreant]

I just happened across your site here the other day and started looking around a little bit. Reading this thread totally reminded me of old school EQ talking about formulas and comparing weapons and ratios.

That led me to looking for an old thread I remembered reading. It's got a lot of good info about how lower level damage works, why speed is king for 1h, ratio for offhand/2h, and such.

I'm not sure what your max level is at right now, or how similar the combat mechanics are here vs. classic EQ, but even if the majority of this information is useless here, it might be an interesting read for some if you feel like taking the time. Perhaps moreso if if you were around back then, especially if you remember reading the thread.

The original from 2000 is dead, but here is a currently good link to where someone copied it in 2003. http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1541

[Vicatin]

Pan, any updates on this?

[Malrubius]

Bump on this awesome, but old, thread, and a question...

So, my monk just got epic'd. I've had a Peacebringer forever.

As someone who solo's a lot, I'm now thinking of going with a SoS or AC. Which do epic monks find better *for soloing*? I'm thinking the effect on the SoS might help more, plus it's a long-lasting buff.

Also, given the epic, wouldn't I get better DPS by putting the 1HB in off-hand?

[Vicatin]

Put SoS in off hand. The ada club ratio is very close to sos, if u wanted to swap over to ada after proc u could, but it would be only a slight benefit for the stun factor...unless the stun interrupted a potentially harmful spell or something. The sos will be a tiny bit better dps wise.

[kotton05]

tis why I use tstaff, sorry you 1hand blunters!

[Malrubius]

tis why I use tstaff, sorry you 1hand blunters!

Why not use both? Just use the SoS when your buff wears off, until it procs again. Then go back to tstaff.

Thanks Vicatin.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Ladies love epic fist. Flaming gauntlets of ro for their clicks effect too :)

[kotton05]

Why not use both? Just use the SoS when your buff wears off, until it procs again. Then go back to tstaff.

Thanks Vicatin.

Guess pure solo that's a good method.

[JayN]

yes it is worth it.

[Splorf22]

So does anyone have actual parses? And is the Tranquil staff stun like the enchanter spell Whirl, where it gets broken by melee hits?

[Vayder]

is the Tranquil staff stun like the enchanter spell Whirl, where it gets broken by melee hits?

No. See Red where t-staff stun was followed by innerflame and certain death.

[Tasslehofp99]

I think this is due to the fact that h2h skill for monks caps a lot lower than 1hb, so when you're using AC/SOS your Atk rating is a lot higher. Atleast that may have Something to do with it.

[heazels]

the only thing that matters with monk is picking an iksar, you may as well delete your character if you didnt.

[Vicatin]

the only thing that matters with monk is picking an iksar, you may as well delete your character if you didnt.

This is silly. I agree iksar is the better option, but min-maxing isnt for everyone.

[Vohl]

This is silly. I agree iksar is the better option, but min-maxing isnt for everyone.

With the Velious endgame, such as the Shroud of Longevity and 10th Ring, racial bennies are overshadowed by gear effects to the point where you could choose by appearance. If you're going for BotB, Iksar is probably still the way to go.

I'd add that Iksar need a lot more faction work than agnostic human if you want to bind and adventure anywhere outside of Cabilis.

[Ele]

With the Velious endgame, such as the Shroud of Longevity and 10th Ring, racial bennies are overshadowed by gear effects to the point where you could choose by appearance. If you're going for BotB, Iksar is probably still the way to go.

I'd add that Iksar need a lot more faction work than agnostic human if you want to bind and adventure anywhere outside of Cabilis.

sneak and feign death go a long way to negating the faction issues.

[Splorf22]

I just looked it up and H2H does indeed cap 7 points lower according to the wiki. That makes a lot of sense Verant!

Also the primary job of a monk is pulling, and that really isn't very gear dependent, unless you count javelins and such. So I'm going to go with 'race-isn't-that-important-for-a-monk'.

[webrunner5]

no parse info here but t staff plus epic haste is better than any droppable 1h combo with epic haste, including h2h. 2hb skill cap is higher and dmg bonus is higher than with h2h. That means much higher guaranteed minimums with higher hit ratios. The epic is for song haste, not primarily for weapon replacement, unless you have crap.

not only that, if you are "epically-fisting" a raid target that gets turned unexpectedly, you will be shattered by ripostes before you can turn auto attack off.

2hb is the tits, from 20-60. Unless you are trying to roleplay or something, in which case you have other problems to focus on

What he says. Still the same now.

[kotton05]

^ I also think I read somewhere the wu's quivering beats most 1hb combo's as well.

[Kutsumo]

My monk is level 52 so I only have a 9 1h dmg bonus, but even in this case epic fist is parsing more than AC in mainhand for me. I've been soloing in Sol B all weekend and decided to do some extended parsing on a few weapon combinations. I killed about 60 sonic bats with each (epic fist/SoS and AC/SoS) and the fist averaged 6dps more overall (37 vs 43). Sure, there can be variance in this sample size but it's enough to convince me to leave fist mainhand. I could also note that tranquil staff was averaging less than AC/SoS for the 30ish kills that I used it for before switching back to DW.

This may all change between 52 and 60, but for now it's fist/AC or fist/SoS for me.

edit: for those asking about tstaff proc, I haven't had it last longer than 3 seconds on a mob before it starts hitting me again yet. They begin swinging again a couple of seconds before the message that it wore off.

[arsenalpow]

Tail=Fail
It's science

[Yaolin]

Funny none of you have actually looked at my post in the melee forum that actually states that the T-Staff is the best "viable" dps for most monks, only by about 2.2% better than Epic Fist/SoS combo, but that doesn't take into account the 240 dpm from T-Staff procs, so it is probably more like 5% better than Epic/SoS.

[Kutsumo]

Funny none of you have actually looked at my post in the melee forum that actually states that the T-Staff is the best "viable" dps for most monks, only by about 2.2% better than Epic Fist/SoS combo, but that doesn't take into account the 240 dpm from T-Staff procs, so it is probably more like 5% better than Epic/SoS.

Yeah I've looked at your post. It's what caused me to purchase a Tstaff. Just can't seem to recreate it in game. Maybe that changes by 60.

[Iliilliill]

competent parses > voodoo math

[Lazie]

Uh in game parses the t-staff loses to dual wielding from my experience in EQ.

[Yaolin]

I have yet to see anyone ever actually post anything from GP with 100 fights against the same mob for both T-Staff and Epic/SoS. When you do that please let me know so that we can get a final answer. The difference is always going to be minor, if you average about 50 DPS on a mob with a T-staff, your DPS with a Epic/SoS if the math is correct will be around 49.2 DPS. If you're not parsing 100's of times on the same exact mob you will never be able to tell the difference. I've also heard of the fact that the lower the AC the mob the better 2H will do and the higher the AC the better 1H will do. T-Staff Proc alone add's 4.8% DPS if you are parsing at 70 dps without procs.

[Lazie]

I have yet to see anyone ever actually post anything from GP with 100 fights against the same mob for both T-Staff and Epic/SoS. When you do that please let me know so that we can get a final answer. The difference is always going to be minor, if you average about 50 DPS on a mob with a T-staff, your DPS with a Epic/SoS if the math is correct will be around 49.2 DPS. If you're not parsing 100's of times on the same exact mob you will never be able to tell the difference. I've also heard of the fact that the lower the AC the mob the better 2H will do and the higher the AC the better 1H will do.

I've ran the parser with both before. The Tstaff loses. Now this could obviously change depending on if your are tanking or purely dpsing from behind.

[Yaolin]

Can't argue with "I've ran it before and T-Staff loses." If you could show some actual back-up I'm sure everyone would love to see it so that we can put all arguments to rest.

[Lazie]

Can't argue with "I've ran it before and T-Staff loses." If you could show some actual back-up I'm sure everyone would love to see it so that we can put all arguments to rest.

It's pretty easy to run yourself. Parsers are easy to come by. It has been awhile since I owned a t-staff (sold it after I parsed and saw which was superior). I didn't save those parse records from long ago. It was something I did because I felt mobs were dying slower when I used a t-staff and it confirmed they were. Download a parser. It becomes evident pretty quickly which of the 2 is superior on this server. Dual wield and double attack wins when combined with epic fist/SoS.

[Kutsumo]

Can't argue with "I've ran it before and T-Staff loses." If you could show some actual back-up I'm sure everyone would love to see it so that we can put all arguments to rest.

I'm with you on this, but I'm not going to dedicate myself to longer parses yet as my level is probably skewing results. Would be nice to have a 60 do some parsing on a few priest of discord kills (with a pally tanking with stuns or something) for each weapon.

[Tiggles]

You monks and your "choices" I'll have my Ragebringer equipped throughout Velious.

No fuss no muss.

[Cecily]

Sucks we might actually have to parse. I think with Primal and a pair of post epics you might get better DPS. But the number I remember for bagging Ragebringer was 1500 ATK, we're not getting close to that in Velious. Then again, every rogue in the guild with 1 post epic + epic would undoubtedly parse better.

[arsenalpow]

Wu fists aren't really upgraded until primal, Tunare (if she drops the cool shit), and some of the high end ToV shit if I remember correctly.

[Elements]

According to my voodoo dps comparison calculator (similar to yaolin's in the melee section) which accounts for dualwield skill, double attack, level, damage bonuses, weapon type skill (h2h vs blunt vs 2hb), and weapon ratio, the scale tips in favor of epic/sos for raw melee damage around level 40 when compared to a tstaff. By 60 the epic/sos combo is about 9.49% more raw melee dps than a tstaff. Have no significant parse data but plan to generate some when my monk is 60.

For soloing, riposts againt you or the mob that you are fighting would favor a tstaff but how significantly Im not sure.

[Kutsumo]

For soloing, riposts againt you or the mob that you are fighting would favor a tstaff but how significantly Im not sure.

I've been surprised by the lack of ripostes I've seen even dual wielding epic fists, but I haven't parsed it out. Just for an extreme comparison, I'll try dual fists vs IFS for a while when I'm grinding this week and see how much diff I'm seeing in ripostes.

[Bazia]

You monks and your "choices" I'll have my Ragebringer equipped throughout Velious.

No fuss no muss.

[Splorf22]

I find it really hard to believe that the fist will outdamage the adamantite club by so much. 43/37 is like 15%, and its ratio is actually worse (not to mention the AC has a damage proc). I know it's faster so it gets the benefit of the damage bonus, but still. I'm going to guess you're doing something wrong.

Yaolin I checked your calculator and it seems you have two (very significant) errors. First, the Lucy damage bonuses are from the post 2HB upgrade. The real DB for a Tranquil Staff at L60 is 17. (29+29+17)/30 = 2.5, not 2.6. Secondly, monks have a dual wield check vs 400 (warriors do 500). So by your own math it should be Fist = (9+9+11)/16 = 1.81 + SoS 0.76 * (17+17)/ 28 = 0.92 -> 2.73. That being said, I think this method leaves a lot to be desired as it does not measure for example H2H skill and such. I'd be more interested in a long term parse.

Elements I am curious how you factored the H2H skill difference into your calculator though. I played around with some numbers once and the Tranquil Staff/AC+SoS/Fist+SoS all came out about the same.

[Kutsumo]

I find it really hard to believe that the fist will outdamage the adamantite club by so much. 43/37 is like 15%, and its ratio is actually worse (not to mention the AC has a damage proc). I know it's faster so it gets the benefit of the damage bonus, but still. I'm going to guess you're doing something wrong.

Aside from placing the weapons in the right hands, I'm not sure exactly where I could go wrong. Obviously the epic fist applies the damage bonus 50% more often, so that could have something to do with it (though I could only expect a 8-10% difference from that alone). Also variance on 60 mobs is certainly possible with missing hits due to mobs running, etc. Longer, accurate parses like the ones you did for AC would be much better.

[Yaolin]

If anyone could post what all the 2h DMG bonuses are for each delay that would be awesome (17 for T-Staff stated by Splorf).

Also confirm skill caps of Warrior and Monk Dual Wields

Monk 400 dual wield and warrior 500 dual wield

thanks

[Elements]

I find it really hard to believe that the fist will outdamage the adamantite club by so much. 43/37 is like 15%, and its ratio is actually worse (not to mention the AC has a damage proc). I know it's faster so it gets the benefit of the damage bonus, but still. I'm going to guess you're doing something wrong.

Yaolin I checked your calculator and it seems you have two (very significant) errors. First, the Lucy damage bonuses are from the post 2HB upgrade. The real DB for a Tranquil Staff at L60 is 17. (29+29+17)/30 = 2.5, not 2.6. Secondly, monks have a dual wield check vs 400 (warriors do 500). So by your own math it should be Fist = (9+9+11)/16 = 1.81 + SoS 0.76 * (17+17)/ 28 = 0.92 -> 2.73. That being said, I think this method leaves a lot to be desired as it does not measure for example H2H skill and such. I'd be more interested in a long term parse.

Elements I am curious how you factored the H2H skill difference into your calculator though. I played around with some numbers once and the Tranquil Staff/AC+SoS/Fist+SoS all came out about the same.

In the AC vs epic first debate from ratio + level 60 damage bonus alone we get 26/25 vs 20/16 which on paper should be 20% more damage for the main hand epic fist.

I pulled these formulae out of the p99/eq emu code a long time ago so perhaps things have changed but I took the damage modifier from weapon skill at max (252 for a monk blunts) and looked at the % decrease going to weapon skill for H2H at max (245). I only applied this percent decrease retrospectively to my numbers and only at level 60. For a monk my calcs show 1.65% more damage from a blunt over a h2h of equal ratio based on the difference between the 245 and 252 skill caps. This assumes there is no rounding in the damage calc also.

[Splorf22]

In the AC vs epic first debate from ratio + level 60 damage bonus alone we get 26/25 vs 20/16 which on paper should be 20% more damage for the main hand epic fist.

The damage bonus does not work this way. It is a flat amount added to every hit, not a change to the ratio of the weapon.

Also confirm skill caps of Warrior and Monk Dual Wields

My word is gospel!

Aside from placing the weapons in the right hands, I'm not sure exactly where I could go wrong.

You were soloing, right? GamParse has issues with pulls sometimes. Maybe you could try Fist/SoS and AC/Fist and measure your average it (so that the 2HB and punches show up differently). It's relatively straightforward to go from average hit to total dps.

[Kutsumo]

In the AC vs epic first debate from ratio + level 60 damage bonus alone we get 26/25 vs 20/16 which on paper should be 20% more damage for the main hand epic fist.

Non-bonus weapon damage is doubled, so 9 dmg becomes 9+9+11 = 29 and 15 dmg becomes 15+15+11 = 41. It's more like 10%

[Elements]

If anyone could post what all the 2h DMG bonuses are for each delay that would be awesome (17 for T-Staff stated by Splorf).

Also confirm skill caps of Warrior and Monk Dual Wields

Monk 400 dual wield and warrior 500 dual wield

thanks

Damage bonuses I have from a ways back from dev posts of p99/eq emu code changes:

Mainhand or 2h with delay <28 = (level - 25)/3

2h delay 28-39 = (level - 25)/2

2h delay 40-42 = ((level -25)/2) + 1

2h delay 43-44 = ((level - 25)/2) + 3

2h delay >44 = ((level - 25)/2) + (del-31)/3

Then I have a confusing note about the 2h damage bonus from 51-60 being (level - 7)/3 but I dont recall where its from or to what delay it applies.

***note Im pretty sure all damage bonus integers are rounded down before being applied.

[Elements]

The damage bonus does not work this way. It is a flat amount added to every hit, not a change to the ratio of the weapon.



My word is gospel!



You were soloing, right? GamParse has issues with pulls sometimes. Maybe you could try Fist/SoS and AC/Fist and measure your average it (so that the 2HB and punches show up differently). It's relatively straightforward to go from average hit to total dps.

Right. Not completely engrossed in this atm.

[Elements]

Would be nice to just disect the entire damage calc right from the code again.

[Yaolin]

UPDATED CHART as of 12/3/2013 ~ Lots of input from lots of people. ~ Please keep comment in the melee forum on my thread if u have any suggestions.

Here is the link to the new chart.... Hopefully I will be able to post one here that can actually be read soon....

MONK WEAPON DPS AND BUYING GUIDE CHART (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwLk00fzuQQMUVBLMkZIUjBSdWc/edit?usp=sharing)

[Lojik]

The damage bonus does not work this way. It is a flat amount added to every hit, not a change to the ratio of the weapon.


So essentially it raises the minimum hit by a certain amount, or I'm misunderstanding? Seems that this would favor epic/sos even more.

[Kutsumo]

So essentially it raises the minimum hit by a certain amount, or I'm misunderstanding? Seems that this would favor epic/sos even more.

It raises minimum, maximum, and average. It's just +dmg on every swing that lands. This does give faster weapons an advantage in the main hand.

[Yaolin]

Easy example of DAMAGE BONUS is when a LvL 60 warriors crits/crips with an Oggok Cleaver (26 damage bonus) at LvL 60 you will see....

(Bogmuk criticals hits a sarnak for 450 damage!!)
Bogmuk slashes a sarnak for 476 damage.

So everytime you hit a mob you get the +26 with your oggok cleaver which does not get modified by attack dmg, weapon dmg, or strength.

[Lojik]

It raises minimum, maximum, and average. It's just +dmg on every swing that lands. This does give faster weapons an advantage in the main hand.

Yah realized all these too after I posted.

[webrunner5]

Easy example of DAMAGE BONUS is when a LvL 60 warriors crits/crips with an Oggok Cleaver (26 damage bonus) at LvL 60 you will see....

(Bogmuk criticals hits a sarnak for 450 damage!!)
Bogmuk slashes a sarnak for 476 damage.

So everytime you hit a mob you get the +27 with your oggok cleaver which does not get modified by attack dmg, weapon dmg, or strength.

Nice example. Those big crits/crips really add up in a long fight which will happen in Velious.

[Kutsumo]

Redid my testing with more mobs and going by average hit instead of DPS (since pulls and laziness on runners can skew results).

Fist mainhand (9 dmg bonus at lvl 52): avg hit of 29
AC mainhand (9 dmg bonus at lvl 52): avg hit of 42

This comes out to roughly 8% difference between the two for me. That difference should continue to increase as the damage bonus goes up. However, one might wonder if it's worth keeping AC in mainhand when soloing or tanking b/c of proc and slower delay for less ripostes.

[Malrubius]

Anybody know what droppable Velious options (for monk) there will be, with better ratios than currently (for 1hb and 2hb)? If any?

[baalzy]

Anybody know what droppable Velious options (for monk) there will be, with better ratios than currently (for 1hb and 2hb)? If any?

By droppable I assume you mean tradable. I couldn't find anything really 'better' than kunark in the tradable area. There will be some more options though for people who can't afford to twink with the absolute best tho in the form of exquisite velium weapons and some things like:
http://wiki.project1999.com/Efreeti_Ice_Staff

Looks like most of the twinkable monk weapons coming from velious will be gap fillers between the normal 'cheap' stuff and the highest end kunark stuff.

[Kutsumo]

The 12/20 velium weapons will be side grades to AC/SoS for offhand. There's no point in mentioning SoD here I think.

[Lojik]

Scepter of Mastery won't be too hard to get and that will be an upgrade DPS wise to SoS

[baalzy]

So, there was mention several times in this thread that Monk H2H skill caps lower than 1hb. I just found this in Aeolwinds unofficial timeline:

NOVEMBER 29, 2000
The Monk's hand-to-hand skill cap has been raised to a level equal to their one-handed blunt skill
remove Locket of Escape

Seems like H2H should be = to 1HB for over 2 years now.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Players:EQLive_Timeline

[Freakish]

Maybe it should be but its not.

[Clark]

By droppable I assume you mean tradable. I couldn't find anything really 'better' than kunark in the tradable area. There will be some more options though for people who can't afford to twink with the absolute best tho in the form of exquisite velium weapons and some things like:
http://wiki.project1999.com/Efreeti_Ice_Staff

Looks like most of the twinkable monk weapons coming from velious will be gap fillers between the normal 'cheap' stuff and the highest end kunark stuff.

Haven't thought of that one in a long time :)