Raid Changes

[Taluvill]

not sure if you noticed, but i actually hit your sarcasm with more of my own sarcasm, basically it's like a triple dose of pimpin from ol karsten

Im only so lucky to have been in the presence of greatness.

*Nilbog smiles and rays of light beam upon Karsten*

[Taluvill]

IF YOU WANNA PROMOTE FAIRNESS AND COMPETITION, GET RID OF THE SPAWN VARIANCE, AS IT IS NOT CLASSIC AND LEAVES A WIDE OPEN DOOR FOR CHEATING. NO MORE BABYSITTING FROM THE GMs, LET THE BEST GUILD LIVE, AND THRIVE, FAIRLY, AND COMPETITIVELY.


THIS

[Zithax]

Hey so like, why didn't you guys post this thread when the rotation was implemented instead of months after the variance system has been in place? Seriously. You can't answer this question legitimately so don't even try.

As hasbinbad noted, Transcendence is now a star in its final throes of death; blowing up to many times its size before it finally evaporates into nothing. (or a neutron star.)

But hey, it's ok. You may have been a small star with very little fuel and a faint glow, but IB is here. We will continue lighting up the sky for all to see and wonder at. We will be here for a while, so feel free to form some planets around us yo. We'll let you hang around the neighborhood, but if you get close enough to us we'll burn the shit out of you.

Get at me son.

[karsten]

hey i got your back taluvill, i had it on the other thread and i have it here too!

[Hasbinbad]

We're just looking for something that is fair and balanced for all.
You've succeeded in clowning yourself harder than I ever could have.

This is obviously not the game for you.

Try:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/index.xml

Or:
http://hko.aeriagames.com/download

[Ektar]

quote on quote "ruleset"



Anyway..
Why haven't any of the IB watchdogs jumped on the fact that a necessary premise for their case is that we cheat? I mean, I know everything else is riddled with fallacies, lies, and misinformation, but come on. The spawn variance is not unfair if cheating is "possible;" it's only unfair if someone is cheating. The argument put forth relies heavily of the premise that IB hacks. And, sry, that's not true.


Why haven't any of the IB watchdogs jumped on the fact that a necessary premise for their case is that we cheat?

And no, it's not because we cheat and they couldn't argue it.

[karsten]

oh, i'd also like to mention that the thing mythoxxus and taluvill keep hinting at about how the variance is unfair is the fact that they've got it in their heads that we have dedicated linux boxes set up to packet sniff in such a way that we are able to determine when raid mobs will spawn.

I shit you not, they think this

[Dukat]

Myth has a valid point, and this isn't the place for a flame war. Why don't you guys go back to R&F, grown folk are trying to communicate.

[Hasbinbad]

Why haven't any of the IB watchdogs jumped on the fact that a necessary premise for their case is that we cheat?
Because it's an utterly ridiculous premise only worthy of a comment because of your inquiry.

[Hasbinbad]

I shit you not, they think this
http://www.morethings.com/fan/south_park/photo_gallery/912-trapped_in_the_closet/05secret_scientologist_xenu_story13.jpg

[karsten]

Myth has a valid point, and this isn't the place for a flame war. Why don't you guys go back to R&F, grown folk are trying to communicate.

well that's not true, as zithax so eloquently put. I shall repeat it for you and bold it all up, hasbinstyle:

Hey so like, why didn't you guys post this thread when the rotation was implemented instead of months after the variance system has been in place? Seriously. You can't answer this question legitimately so don't even try

so, yeah. so i just make fun of you guys instead, it's an endeavor that i find more fruitful and I think if seen from this perspective you'd agree

[Dukat]

well that's not true, as zithax so eloquently put. I shall repeat it for you and bold it all up, hasbinstyle:

Spawn time variance leads to a unforeseen vulnerability to third party programs. Please don't misconstrue my argument, I am not saying IB is hacking in any way shape or form. I'm actually speaking in the interest of all of us, who knows what guild might elect to abuse these programs and take the spawns you guys dedicate so much time to finding?

It's actually kind of interesting how much protest this thread is generating. Really, a strong guild like you guys should be all about a more direct form of competition.

[Kuldiin]

There are some people here who should be limited to the R&F section.

I wonder how many people are put off playing here when they read your trolling and garbage in the general section.

Notice how so few people have bothered to comment in this thread, yet its a topic no doubt many would like to be contributing in and having their say?

[karsten]

you people think we have a dedicated linux box in order to hack this server so hard that we know things that even rogean has mentioned not having info on. and then you turn around and want to be taken seriously.

sooooooo, once again, refer back to this:

Hey so like, why didn't you guys post this thread when the rotation was implemented instead of months after the variance system has been in place? Seriously. You can't answer this question legitimately so don't even try

[karsten]

people aren't posting on it because A: it's late and B: it's a stupid topic that really only warrants troll posts.

[Dukat]

I would be very interested to hear a guild besides IB's thoughts on this topic.

[Hasbinbad]

Hi pals.

Some of you have expressed the view that people have come to this thread and flamed where flaming was not warranted. I posit that the replies which might be viewed as inflammatory were warranted because the OP is in fact a flame post. Below is a compilation of direct quotes from the OP, where they imply that they (transcenduh) are angels, and that we (IB) are devils. Please, after reading this, tell me - no, seriously, PLEASE TELL ME - how this is NOT a flame post?

**WARNING - WALL OF TEXT**


(also, i do not take credit for punctuation errors in this post. There is.. ..too much)

Nothing in this set of quotes is repeated, I quote each individual thing as I go down the list, and any repetition is directly from the OP.

They can couch their idiocy in whatever disclaimers they want, we all know that a rose by any other name is still a rose.
infamous Spawn Variance.
Right off the bat, Maxipad is using emotional language to indicate that Nilbog's system is somehow evil. i.e. "They are devils."
Upon the opening of raid scene on the P1999 server, standard rules were followed as they were back on classic EQ.
"We're angels."
Even tho Trans wasn't RAIDING upon the opening of the raid scene on p99, this fucktard thinks he has some kind of right to chime in on how it was way back when. He implies that everything was ideal, a veritable pastoral scene of a simpler time before the evil empire.
using the strategy of camping a mob 1 day before it spawned to acquire security on that mob.
"We're angels."
He implies that somehow making up rules is valid, and that the "acquired" security on the mob by said making up of rules.
PROBLEMS: guilds who felt wronged by this show of endurance, AKA camping, resorted to classical strategies of training, leapfrogging, asshatery.
This is pretty obvious, but just to be clear this is a "We're angels, they're devils" combo in which he uses emotional language yet again.. implying that they did the right thing, causing us to "feel wronged," as if we gave a fuck. ..implying that camping is a rule again - that they had endurance and we didn't or something? More like wasted time and a desperate attempt to grab at anything.
whining about how camping a mob was NON skilled
Here with an obvious "they're devils" comment, how is this NOT a rant again?
whining about camping seemed to be the problem
"they're devils"
we are all aware that third party software exists and hackers are not unheard of.
"They're devils."
There's butthurt, and then there's "my butt is thoroughly in pain."
For this OBVIOUS implication, you fall into the latter category.
although it was not as severe
"They're devils." Implying that hacks here are more rampant than on live. I mean, seriously? LMAO., since something like spawn variance did not exist.
NOT POINTING ANY FINGERS AT ANYONE
http://www.mackinac.org/media/images/2008/v2008-09.gif
as any of us could be guilty of using such software
"We're angels / they're devils" combo.
Obviously, they are not implicating themselves, GEE I WONDER WHO THEY COULD BE TALKING ABOUT???
the use of outside help, cheating to acquire a certain edge over raid encounters
ditto
to some, a show of competition
It's the "to some" that I find cute.
"they're devils"
Training, leapfrogging, asshatery.
"they're devils"
Competitive and fair according to sony, the bringers of Everquest.
Implying that variance is not competitive and fair.
"they're devils"
Third party software threats like showeq and macroquest= low, if any.
Begging the question "where is the threat high?" with the obvious implication that there is a high threat on p99 because IB hax.
No camping of mobs (Loss of competitive edge)
"We're angels"
Notice how he disregards the competitive nature of the current system.
Training, leapfrogging, asshatery removed (mostly).
"They're devils."
Third party software threats like showeq and macroquest= present, but low (tiki hehe) douche.
"They're devils"
Rehashing of a long dead issue involving a single bad apple who we reported, was given another shot by staff and let back in the guild with a stipulation of compliance, which, when broken, was enforced and Tiki was ostracized from our community.
Camping mobs ( to some, a show of competition, endurance)
"We're angels."
The only way they can compete is their way??
Training, leapfrogging, asshatery.
"they're devils"
Competitive edge is back, but fairness....
"they're devils"
..by not being fair apparently. The funny thing is that multiple guilds have beaten us to mobs. This is undoubtedly the most fair system we've used so far.
Third Party software threats like showeq and macroquest=HIGH
"they're devils"
obvious troll is obvious
Im not gonna point any fingers, as i dont wanna go through the trolling of PROVIDE INFO, PICS BLAH BLAH...
"they're devils"
obvious implication here, GEE i wonder who their talking about NOW?? lol
but if you GMs wanna promote competition and fairness in this good game of ours, please remove the spawn variance
"we're angels"
obviously because they espouse "fairness" (aka the way they want it) lol
let it go back to its classical roots of normal everquest spawns
Yeah.. normal rules.. classic rules.
That would be "Don't KS."
..which would suit US just fine!!!
IF CAMPING MOBS is not skilled and was what we were trying tofix initially, we haven't, and gone right back to camping with the new system
LoL, this is worthy of another thread damn near.
YOU GUYS ARE COMPLAINING THAT THIS SYSTEM IS WHAT WE HAD ORIGINALLY AND THEN ASKING THAT WE CHANGE IT BY GOING BACK TO WHAT WE HAD ORIGINALLY. WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOUR BRAIN?
IF PROMOTING FAIRNESS IF WHAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR, we have done the opposite
"they're devils"
Dey tuk ar jawbs!!
The fact that Divinity has beaten us to spawns several times, and even Fish Bait got the jump on us leads me to believe something very different than what you're saying.
left a wide open door for third party software use.
"they're devils"
obvious troll..
IF AVOIDING TRAINING, LEAPFROGGING, ASSHATERY is what the goal was, it hasn't worked perfectly, and its something that can only be settled between players ingame.
"they're devils"
(are you tired of this yet? how about now? now?)
IF PROMOTING COMPETITION is what we were looking for, well, we're not any more competitive camping mobs now than we were at the beginning.
"We're angels"
and if it's not our way, it must be demonic!! WITCH!!
sure gathering a force at 3 in the morning is impressive (maybe)
"they're devils"
and also unimpressive devils.
but i think its much more competitive for a team of 20 or so to outstrategize two or possibly three other forces to acquire the kill on a dragon
"we're angels"
and if it's not focused on camping something for 10+ hours, it's not competitive
would classical rules of everquest RID of the threat of unskilled advantages over a 10 year old game? hell yes.
"they're devils"
Oh yeah, we're totally unskilled. Lawl.
IF YOU WANNA PROMOTE FAIRNESS AND COMPETITION, GET RID OF THE SPAWN VARIANCE, AS IT IS NOT CLASSIC AND LEAVES A WIDE OPEN DOOR FOR CHEATING.
Same old bullshit.
"we're angels" coz their way is fair, and "they're devils" coz we hax'd teh Gibson.
NO MORE BABYSITTING FROM THE GMs
Oh, and btw, Nilbog babysits me.
LET THE BEST GUILD LIVE, AND THRIVE, FAIRLY, AND COMPETITIVELY.
I think "best" is kind of a judgement call. I think any guild that lives up to it's current potential while keeping true to a set of standards and ethics is "the best" guild. IB does that on a certain level, Divinity does that on a certain level, GC does that on a certain level. I haven't seen FB in action enough to determine how they are going to end up, but they seem to have some skilled players with a decent amount of smarts. In fact, the only guild not living up to their potential is Transcendence. In fact, the only guild currently having serious ethical issues to the point where MOST OF THE GOOD PLAYERS IN THE GUILD HAVE LEFT for greener pastures is Transcendence.

You guys are a dead guild. You're a withered shadow of your prior self, and even your best leaders have abandoned you. What the future holds, only the Flying Spaghetti Monster knows, but ya'll ain't about shit but bitching and moaning right about now.


Wololo shouts, 'You feel as if you're about to fail.'

[Dukat]

Wow, TLDR. Somebody mute that guy.

[Hasbinbad]

Wow, TLDR. Somebody mute that guy.
Of course you didn't read, that would be asking WAY too much of you.
(it's ok Dukat, just have Bayer read it to you later)

[Co114p53]

I would be very interested to hear a guild besides IB's thoughts on this topic.

This.

I see a lot of garble of the same shit reworded, i mean how many times can you twist words and gloat/bag about:

30 people that don't jobs, real lives, girls(ouch), school

I mean how can you brag about that shit, and flame others at the same time? it's utterly embarrassing, yet making yourself look like a fool. Furthermore promoting that you have no life at age 30, or whatever age you may be, mooching off of mom and dad, living in their basement, fapping while you wait camping the same raid target over and over again. in the mean time your being greedy and don't give others a chance to enjoy the game.

/vote WITH the original poster.

Competition yes, how raiding is now, hell no. It needs to be classic orientated, just as Maximus said.

[Erik]

All i get from reading posts like this is that nothing is ever good enough. If you are mad because IB is getting all the raid mobs, because for some reason divinity is always looked over, try harder. Please stop with this bullshit the devs work hard enough on this server they do not need another thousand things to fix because someone is unwilling to fight for what they want. Less crying please.

[quido]

http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/files/2008/11/porkchop-sandwiches.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

I really wish I could stay up and troll this post some more, but I have shit to do in the morning so G'night!
God I hope you guys keep crying.. It will give me something to read between orgasms while I fap the day away in my parents basement, plotting how to most efficiently cockblock your guild.

[Neach]

First: All I have to say is WOW..... the responses to a post that was ment for a mature discussion. I don't usually have time to read the forums and I find this Hasinbad guy which iv never really read for that matter "out of control" ignorance and flames. .For what purpose? you seriously have some grudge issues and you are so nerd raging.

Second:Tal is right a lot of us are older and more mature jobs, family, school ect.. I myself do not want to be camping mobs constant within these variances. just to maybe not get something.

Really who wants this? you can't tell me that you agree with wasting more of your time over something so trivial because your ego's are more important then everyone joy of classic raiding/community ect...... just enjoy it period.


Third: Server growth is important to us all. We want this community to grow. Who wants to come to this server with assholes fucking dominating and being dickheads. its a game we are here to enjoy ourselves and relax.

"You starve dogs and they will turn on you"
You remove relaxation and fun from the overall experience of this server. . . People will start making choices and those choices are limited. . .Leave the server or......The rest really think about. seriously stop and think about it what other option do people have if you push em that far? Methox makes more valid points then you would like to agree on.

[Dukat]

Third party hacks do exist. We at Transcendence are trying to change the server to preclude the use of them and level the playing field for all guilds. You IB guys are just falling over yourselves to stop that from happening. If you are so elite and aren't using said hacks, why arent you interested in what we have to say? And I can't believe the number one guild on the server chose you guys to represent them on this thread.

I'd pay good money to see your guild leaders face when he wakes up in the morning and reads this thread.

[Humerox]

I'm not a spokesperson for Div, but if the threads are searched, Daydrem herself has stated that we are happy to fight and compete for the raid mobs.

Allowing pseudo-instancing (meaning forced rotations, where there is no contest for raid mobs) just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of classic Everquest, AND is rather freaking boring.

ALSO...spawn variance seems to be the fairest attempt to level the playing field. This stuff about hacking is ridiculous.



just my 2 coppers.

[Dukat]

ALSO...spawn variance seems to be the fairest attempt to level the playing field. This stuff about hacking is ridiculous.


It's really not. Its possible to determine the spawn times on raid mobs. This game is 10 years old.

edit: link removed

[Humerox]

Oh I'm aware the programs exist.

What I meant was the programs can be detected AND don't think the devs ain't watching.

We have been in more than one close race with other top guilds to take down a boss mob. Luck of the draw.

[Neach]

Allowing pseudo-instancing (meaning forced rotations, where there is no contest for raid mobs) just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of classic Everquest, AND is rather freaking boring.

Agree Humerox

spawn variance seems to be the fairest attempt to level the playing field

Somewhat... It is in its randomness. But then again this was not classic. Don't get me wrong I'm not a bleeding heart classic and this server wont be perfect. At one point if you think about it somewhat an ability to schedule a raid event was possible. It got downed at this time...it will be back up at this time "best man win" but a 48 hour variance to be on call??

I'm sorry but if you wanted to call/text me at 3 am in the morning to get on and raid a target that will be taken in an hour if we don't form up and move... I'd punch you in your fucking face.

I'm older with a family and priorities and because of these I am lacking in my ability to enjoy the classic content like im punished for not playing 8+ hours of tracking mobs for target ect... . AND by all means do not take this wrong like I'm an old fart and don't want some drama or action. . cause honestly I still get 4 hours in a day minimum (which is retarded) and would love to fight for a fucking mob like the old days. .

But what fights? what trains? what truce between rival guild for raid days/ non interference during a first go. what dedicated train grps to slow down the other approaching guild. . there is no game face so to speak.

That was classic, that's what I miss, thats what was to be serious about wanting your fucking raid target! not this we have all the time in the world to sit around track and control mobs and be greedy fucks.

Cause like I said you don't feed a dog they will turn on you and so help me if it comes down to push or shove sooner or later I'll just say game the fuck on and not care about anything.....cause at that point I dont think it would really matter if I or other people got banned. . .it was the last stand and fun before you left for something bigger and better.

[Gwence]

Hey why dont we just put instances in game now, and have timed lock outs for nagafen, vox, ct, inny, maestro, draco, etc.. That way everyone can have a shot on their own time and............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................oh wait

THAT'S GAY


Go play World of Warcraft Maximus.


IB puts alot of effort into TRACKING mobs in their spawn windows by means of legal in game mechanics. Stop whining like a little baby and work harder to get spawns.

[Rogean]

EQEmulator is open source. If there is a place in the code that the spawn timers get sent to the client in any way or form, I invite anyone to show it to me via PM. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure, even with third party programs, there is no way to detect exactly when a mob will spawn.

[Crow]

Stuff

We here at IB don't believe in families. In fact, it is a requirement upon joining that you sacrifice your loved ones to Hasbinbad to feed his insatiable appetite for the tears of the innocent.

It is also required that you provide pictorial evidence that you do in fact live in a cold dark basement, surrounded by the parapets of discarded soda cans and chip bags that protect you from the horrors of the outside world .. Bonus points if you have a duffel bag full of poopsocks and 2 liters filled with piss under your soiled bed.

[Scoresby]

The argument I'm hearing here is completely invalid. Spawn variance creates an unfair advantage? If there are people who are willing to camp for days in advance now when they aren't sure a mob is going to spawn, do you honestly think you're going to have a chance when they can set their watch to the spawn time?

Wake up.

Spawn variance existed in the later EQ expansions for a reason. If you know when a mob is supposed to spawn, you lock down the kill. Variance is the only thing that added some element of surprise to when raid targets would be available and drove guilds to send scouts out everywhere to find a target to kill. The problem at the moment is the raid content is limited (classic only). Once Kunark comes out there will be more to raid (and less emphasis on older raid targets) and more opportunities open up.

Welcome to Everquest.

Stinkie

[Pheer]

How is it nobody has pointed out that Transcendence admits to camping mob spawns for 24 hours before raid encounters pop leading us to where we are now, and then in the same thread tells us we have no life/job/girlfriend/etc.?

Unless you saw the light and changed your ways in the time between the spawn variance going in and now, I'd say you're a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

In fact if thats the case, shouldn't you be thanking us for breaking your guild's spirit and forcing you to take a hard look at yourselves and straighten out your priorities?

Transcendence refused to participate in the threads where a potential new system was being discussed as an alternative to rotation. You guys' "input" was a little trolling and mockery + a heavy dose of "no comment" after it was said there would be no change unless everyone agreed. Now that a new system is in place suddenly you guys want to have a fucking server summit where you present a "new" (old) system, and your evidence of IB hacking reality and pulling varied spawn timers out of thin air with a program that has no such capabilities.

In short

boo fucking hoo

[Maximus]

EQEmulator is open source. If there is a place in the code that the spawn timers get sent to the client in any way or form, I invite anyone to show it to me via PM. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure, even with third party programs, there is no way to detect exactly when a mob will spawn.

I believe you previously stated that GMs have the ability to tell when a mob is gonna spawn, and believe me, where there is a will, theres a way.

The spawn variance is not classic, it never has been and it never will be. although you say i know only bring it up, this is something i have been fighting to get rid for a long while, nilbog can atest to this. perhaps even aeolwind.
And since you guys (inglourious basterds) were not initially happy with your suggestion for a raid framework, then lets remove it, make everyone happy, eliminate the possibility of hacking ever being a problem, and through good ol fashioned competition into the game.
Mythoxxus

[Pheer]

How many fucking times does someone have to tell you braindead simpletons that its impossible to see the exact spawn times of these spawn time variance mobs before you realize you know nothing.

[Maximus]

How is it nobody has pointed out that Transcendence admits to camping mob spawns for 24 hours before raid encounters pop leading us to where we are now, and then in the same thread tells us we have no life/job/girlfriend/etc.?

I think you have missed some key points to the situation.
Camping mobs is what got us into our first rotation.
with the current system, we are back to phase one, STILL camping mobs to get anywhere in raiding.
If camping mobs is working for you now, then it should be no problem with classic rules.
hell if we're back to camping mobs as a system, why not eliminate any possibility of third party software advantages while we're at it? ease everyones minds in ANY guild and let pure primal competition (strategy, KSing, leapfrogging, whathaveyou) thrive.
If the leadership of Divinity, Gothic circle, Fish Bait, In virtue, or any other guild for the matter has any imput on the current situation, whether agreeing or disagreeing, let it be known.

Mythoxxus

[Rogean]

I believe you previously stated that GMs have the ability to tell when a mob is gonna spawn

Through the use of a command, yes, and commands are logged. I just checked the logs, I don't see a GM popping off the command 5 times a week.

[guineapig]

I’m not going to share my opinion on the original post at this time but I will say this much.

Responding by saying you didn’t read it is just ignorant.
What’s even more ignorant is writing “tl;dr”. Sometimes I feel like this forum is full of 13 year olds.

[dannym3141]

The whole damn thing here is really sad.

We're 10 years on. Games mean nothing, it's just something to have fun with, we all know that. And now we're playing a GAME on a private server, where ANYONE could start their own private server if they put the time and effort in.

So where exactly are the kudos or the prestige? Why do we have a bunch of people gearing to kill each other?

The whining going on here from both sides is trumped, imo, by the utterly obnoxious antagonising going on (edited i didn't want to single anyone out). What are you getting out of this? The ego on show around this server is embarassing when you consider that WoW players wonder why the hell anyone cares about live everquest, and i imagine live everquest players wonder why anyone cares about custom servers. And here we are, flexing nuts about how many mobs we can kill, and how this guild is a dying guild and we're a beautiful little butterfly and other rediculous metaphors ad nauseum.

I've said it since the moment i started on this server and became aware of this arguing till i became level 50. We're all playing a game for nostalgia, a custom server amongst many custom servers, and people STILL find something to argue about.

(the best custom server, btw.)

[Maximus]

Through the use of a command, yes, and commands are logged. I just checked the logs, I don't see a GM popping off the command 5 times a week.

I am trying to be as polite as i can about this issue, but maybe im not being clear enough.
IM NOT saying gm favoritism or any GM help in any way. i believe you guys run a fair game here.
WHAT I AM SAYING is the current system is promoting a hackers ability to break into the system, and gain advantage. if a GM can do it, you bet your ass a hacker is gonna figure it out, just like Duping plat was a problem in the very beginning, random teleportations, macroquest etc.

No one is saying you GMs are popping off any commands in anyones advantage, and believe me i am very grateful for the work you guys have put into the server, as i still enjoy it daily.
But, if you guys are wanting to promote Fairness and Competition, there are better ways and more classicly oriented ways to promote those things.

Mythoxxus

[Pheer]

I think you have missed some key points to the situation.
Camping mobs is what got us into our first rotation.
with the current system, we are back to phase one, STILL camping mobs to get anywhere in raiding.

But you can't camp the mobs now like you did before? Then why argue for a system that is "the same" if you still wont get any mobs?

If camping mobs is working for you now, then it should be no problem with classic rules.

If camping mobs isnt working for you, then it will still be a problem for you even with classic rules?

hell if we're back to camping mobs as a system, why not eliminate any possibility of third party software advantages while we're at it? ease everyones minds in ANY guild and let pure primal competition (strategy, KSing, leapfrogging, whathaveyou) thrive.

Funny how you keep evading the people (including ROGEAN) telling you that youre dumb and there is no third party software that can tell you a spawn variance mob's spawn time.

If the leadership of Divinity, Gothic circle, Fish Bait, In virtue, or any other guild for the matter has any imput on the current situation, whether agreeing or disagreeing, let it be known.

Trying to use them against IB? We seem to have a good relationship with every guild except you. Funny how you ask for everyone's input except IB's, as if theres going to be some kind of council to vote us off the island or some shit, despite your efforts to pretend like youre not necessarily talking about us when you make accusations of hacking.

I am trying to be as polite as i can about this issue, but maybe im not being clear enough.
IM NOT saying gm favoritism or any GM help in any way. i believe you guys run a fair game here.
WHAT I AM SAYING is the current system is promoting a hackers ability to break into the system, and gain advantage. if a GM can do it, you bet your ass a hacker is gonna figure it out, just like Duping plat was a problem in the very beginning, random teleportations, macroquest etc.

Okay. I've determined you're a method troll mythoxxus. You HAVE to be trolling. There is no way someone would compare hacking into the server itself just to extract the spawn times of a handful of specific mobs to duping plat and using MQ to warp around unless they were trolling or had suffered very recent brain damage, most likely as a result of slamming their face into their keyboard over and over again as they watch their guild members disband and app to IB.

[Rogean]

Your saying that because its possible to get the information via a command that it's possible to procure the information via other intrusive methods? I partially understand what your trying to say but let me just say that there are limitations to code. Obviously if information is presented somewhere its always possible to find different ways of accessing the same means of information (For example, someone gaining access to a GM Character and using the command, instead of a GM telling them the information), but other than that you simply cannot make code do what it isn't programmed to do. Even in the situation if a GM's account was compromised, it would still show the commands in the logs. The only people with access to delete logs would be myself and nilbog, and the only person to delete the logs that show logs of deleting logs, is myself.

It's for this reason I invited people to check out the source code themselves on eqemulator.net. The EQEmulator code is very large.. It is very easy for there to be a place in the code that the information is presented that I am not aware of, in which case it should be fixed.

[Maximus]

But you can't camp the mobs now like you did before? Then why argue for a system that is "the same" if you still wont get any mobs?

Dont worry about us not getting any mobs.


If camping mobs isnt working for you, then it will still be a problem for you even with classic rules?

thats right, so no need for you to worry so much. its an advantage to your guild, if you will.

Funny how you keep evading the people (including ROGEAN) telling you that youre dumb and there is no third party software that can tell you a spawn variance mob's spawn time.
well really, i have nothing to say to that.



Trying to use them against IB? We seem to have a good relationship with every guild except you. Funny how you ask for everyone's input except IB's, as if theres going to be some kind of council to vote us off the island or some shit, despite your efforts to pretend like youre not necessarily talking about us when you make accusations of hacking
Im not trying to use anyone against anyone. and i do not care for good/bad friendships, i hope you guys make all the friends in the world. I did not ask for IB's imput, nor Transcendence imput, because we have seen plenty of it. Voting off an island? are we in ocean of tears only?
And while i am not accusing your guild definately of hacking, i just would not like to see it happen with any guild. period. and that goes on for my own, I wouldn't wanna threaten anyone's nostalgia with this.

Mythoxxus

[Maximus]

It's for this reason I invited people to check out the source code themselves on eqemulator.net. The EQEmulator code is very large.. It is very easy for there to be a place in the code that the information is presented that I am not aware of, in which case it should be fixed.

I like your thinking here.

[Pheer]

Hey mythoxxus, its possible that your neighbor is a serial killer. We should execute them right away just to be safe. Sure the chances are slim, but are you willing to take that risk sir?

Thats the argument youre presenting right now.

[Maximus]

Hey mythoxxus, its possible that your neighbor is a serial killer. We should execute them right away just to be safe. Sure the chances are slim, but are you willing to take that risk sir?

Thats the argument youre presenting right now.

We're not killing anybody here dude, i dont know how you translate it to that level.
Just going back to good ol classic everquest. i dont know why you feel so threatened by this.

Mythoxxus

[Striiker]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already but I will offer it out. On the Live EQ servers I played on, we established a server calender to avoid this type of stuff. It would be in dire need of moderation in order to avoid abuse but it might help.
It's unfortunate and disappointing to see how mean players can be towards others in the game and in this forum. Everyone who makes it to the level and can can get into a guild or on a raid should be allowed to experience fighting the boss mobs and getting a shot at winning a drop.
I mean well by posting this and hope that people can be mature in accepting it as such.

[drplump]

I have always liked this idea purposed by hashisgood.
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1489

[Deanob]

IB and you guys Whined and cried because we could camp a mob for a long time. Big whoop. So you almost trained/killed us/KS'ed us because you guys decided the rules didn't apply to you. I specifically remember Wenai saying that. They changed to a rotation because you guys were going overboard.


An entire guild cannot be in, now, 4 zones at once with 6 boss mobs, nor can any single guild camp 6 bosses (assuming that you can only call one boss at a time) for 24 hours every day of the week. It just isnt happening.

If people want to camp, everyone can strategically decided what 2-3 mobs are worth their time that week, and go after them. Using a normal, classic system, Guilds like Gothic Circle or Europa can have a shot at mobs with camping.

If a guild camps a mob for a week, they aren't getting other spawns artard. So if they want to really waste their ENTIRE week (meaning they have no job/wife/anything to do) on one mob, then they can.



Bring back regular spawns with set camping rules (IE: Must have 20 Present at the encounter to claim it. You then move out to a pull spot when your about 30 minutes from the pop, buff and get ready, it pops, it dies)

And i would like to hear the opinion of another guild other than IB trying to drown out an idea that they disagree with. Lets hear all sides. If GC and Div and company would rather keep it the way it is... with 3 am dragon raids that 99% of the server cant attend or even attempt to kill (its 10 years later, not everyone is 18. I am, but most people here aren't and didnt play this game when they were 8) because of what i just mentioned in parenthesis, and because they have jobs, families, kids...



Just a bunch of stuff to think about. What Myth said is 100% true.

Tal no offense man but u were like level 2 when that rotation shit happened. I'd stfu

[Trimm]

I'll post once and then Divinity is staying out of this.

We have 3 options for raid bosses:

A.) 7 day static spawn to the minute (i.e. Vox spawns next Thursday at 7:03pm)
B.) 7 day variant spawn +/- 48 hours (i.e. Vox spawns sometime in the next 120 hours)
C.) Rotation. (Fish Bait gets Vox)

Option C is off the table. There are too many guilds who can kill raid bosses if given the chance, and there is not enough end-game content to spread around to everyone evenly. Option A encourages spawn camping more than anything. First guild to have 15 people sitting at a staging area 24 hours before the known spawn time wins.

That leaves option B. Between now and the next 120 hours, a boss will spawn. This option gives all guilds the same chance to track, mobilize and kill said spawn. If individuals want to camp a tracker in the zone for 5 days straight, so be it. We all have that option available to us.

You're argument against a spawn variance is very, very weak. If someone is so inclined to hack in order to gain an advantage on raid bosses, a few threads on the forums aren't going to stop them. It is up to the guilds to police their own members, and the devs to do what they can to track and detect hackers. If there was one member of my guild who constantly was alerting us that a boss was going to spawn, I'd have to question him. That said, with this thread you are accusing IB, Divinity, Fish Bait, In Virtue, Gothic Circle, Europa, and every other guild of hacking. Not only did you accuse us of this, you linked a site for a hacking program so anyone temped to use such programs knows right where to go. Stupid idea.

You want to know where Divinity stands, and I think I speak for my whole guild when I say we support the spawn variance. It may not be the 100% perfect solution, but it's the best of the above 3 options.

[Bakaris]

Every guild should have a PR guy like Trimm here. Makes Divinity look much better than the rest of the guild, where every member is spewing one bad thing out after the other.

[Deanob]

I find it personally offensive when Im being called a hacker by Dukat when I spent countless of sleepless hours camping raid targets for my guild.

Dukat, your a piece of shit in my books man.

[Wrei]

Originally Posted by Taluvill View Post
30 people that don't jobs, real lives, girls(ouch), school

Ok let me get this straight:

1. A guild swooping down on a boss after it spawns (within minutes to hours-depending on when the boss spawns) means they got no jobs, no lives and no gf and are bums. Check.

2. A guild "camping" an empty room for 24 hours means they got jobs, have important lives and have multiple girlfriends while being immensely successful in life. Check.

3. Rotation is "fair" provided your one of the guilds "in" the rotation. Check.

4. Rotation is NOT fair and we (trans) have been bitching diligently ever since it got implemented. Check.

5. Trans is better than IB in every aspect, we talked the talk and haven't said anything when rotation got lifted to prove we are better. Check.

6. After getting our (trans) ass kicked the current system must be flawed as there's no way IB can be better then us. Check.

7. Had we (trans) been dominating the raid content AFTER rotation got lifted we would have made sure to keep crying to change this "unfair" system. As we're all for the having "everyone and their mom" get boss kills every week. Check.

8. All other raiding guilds are ok with competition but we're (trans) not because let's face it this game is 10 years old and we got better shit to do in RL so let's go back to sitting in front of a boss 24 hours before it spawns. Check.

9. How does IB keep killing a boss before other guilds? They must be hacking no other explanation. Check.

10. We're (trans) telling you guys that such hacks exist and in fact will promote people to use it just to prove a point that the system is vulnerable. Once again we would have stated such things EVEN if trans were the ones killing all the bosses. Check.

I could go on forever.... see the current system IS fair to all guilds. There were many times when IB was beat to a boss and lost our rights to the first attempt. We only got the kill after X guilds failed in their attempts, something that over time the other guilds will quickly pick up and before long other guilds will be killing their share.

The biggest joke in this whole issue is how Trans talked so much crap about how awesome they are then goes on to claim they really are a casual guild with average joe's best interest at heart. If everyone killing all the bosses every week was so important to you guys then why not just run your own private server? You can pop Nag every hour on the hour to get the "thrill" of killing X boss after 10years.

Not all raiding guilds are the same. To be successful you need people that are ALL on the same page. Something that a lot of the raiding guilds out there have a hard time building. IB is not "better" then any guilds out there. We just happen to be a bunch of individuals that all want the same things and believe in pulling our own weight to make it happen.

Lastly, this hacking thing is REALLY getting out of hand. I know you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing but it's really ridiculous to read some of the crap being posted here. You can even ask your ex trans guildmates that ended up joining us. Nobody in IB is hacking to spawn a boss, or predict when a boss spawns or w/e other nonsense you all believe in. It's called setting up a rotation of trackers (hard work omg) to mobilizing as quickly as we can. For a guild that's willing to sit in front of a boss 24 hours, I'm surprised you guys are having such a rough time figuring out when a boss pops.

[Hasbinbad]

Thank you <Transcendence>, for continuing the QQ.
This was an awesome way to wake up!!
I'm roffling soooo fucking hard!
GTG for a bit, I'll be back later.
Also, great post Wrei!

[Trimm]

Touche Hasbin, well played. Unfortunately I'll always have the one-up on you for being a halfling bandit!

[guineapig]

Guineapig: Trimm is right

Bah, how dare you quote me agreeing with you in your sig! I was high! :mad:

[Taluvill]

Deano, I was 46 when rotation started... Yep.

[Hasbinbad]

Touche Hasbin, well played. Unfortunately I'll always have the one-up on you for being a halfling bandit!
Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro! Don't you?

[Taluvill]

I think the thing you guys are missing is its not that fact that we cant track things or we cant do what you guys are doing. We can. Its just tough to plan real life events around a schedule like this.

In classic EQ, you could plan around the boss spawns to a point. You can barely do that here. You can plan a 2 to 4 day window around certain bosses, and you have to be on call for all of those hours. You then, after getting that mob, have to be ready for the next one, 6 per week. Anyone who wants every mob and a chance at real life is kidding themselves.

We weren't and aren't trying to QQ and whatnot. We are trying to come up with a solution that would eliminate cheating, and promote the overall health of the server. The fact that you guys (IB) are so angry and immediately aggainst what we had to say is frightening to say the least.

The fact that people do not want to elave their kids baseball games, jump ship from work, or get out of bed with their wives to jump on a raid boss at whatever time it may be sucks. Sure. But what sucks even worse is that you guys are able to do that and give yourselves completely up to an emulator. Thats awesome that you guys got naggy #1 and naggy #3546. I mean it really makes you look cool dude. Hasbin, go to a bar, get a girl, and tell that girl that you cant go to dinner the next evening because you need to log onto a guild druid and track for a boss. Whats she gonna say?

All you guys did was jump on the post and troll immediately. Trying to incite emotions, and shoot everyone else down without actually adding anything constructive to something that was supposed to be a good, adult discussion. I find it sad that at the age of 18, I feel more mature than most of you here.

And hasbin, look at your sig again. Are you really embracing the "live in your mom's basement and forum troll" lifestyle? You're pathetic dude.

[Trimm]

Trimm vs. Hasbinbad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OsRePNS4pk

[Dac321]

Lol looks just like Hasbin, just taller.

[yaaaflow]

Taluvill: It strikes me that max's main point in the first post was to say that potential cheating via predicting raid mob spawns was the main reason that spawn varience sucks. Rogean has said that that is not possible. Has the point shifted or ???

[Finawin]

You are awfully happy we don't have pics aren't you? Yes, its been kind of difficult finding a way to get a screenshot of someone else's monitor.

There was that time we were clearing fear and all of a sudden a IB raid ports in, sees us there, and then ports out. Exactly 3 hours later CT pops. Just a coincidence I guess.

But I digress...

You have no idea how SEQ or MQ work, do you?

[Trimm]

In classic EQ, you could plan around the boss spawns to a point. You can barely do that here.

I don't disagree with you. I just think a varied spawn timer gives everyone an equal chance at being the first to find a mob spawned and act accordingly.

Even if every player on the server knew Naggy will spawn at 10:22am Monday morning, you'll still have drama about who was there first and who trained who while clearing fire giants, etc etc. With the variance, there's seems to be more of a cut and dry 'who was there first' (to me at least). Again, there is no one solution that will be 100% fair to everyone, we're just working with the lesser of the evils.

Divinity has not killed Vox or Innoruuk due to the varied spawn time yet. We've had our chances and due to whatever reason at the time we couldn't gather the force needed to down these mobs before someone else did. It sucks, but I accept that as part of the game.

IB puts in the work and the hours required to have these mobs on lockdown. I'd love to be able to say they have GM help or use hacks, but it's simply not true. Every time I check Vox or Naggy on my tracker, IB is there waiting. If that's how they choose to spend their time in-game, then that's ok with me. They have been rewarded for that time spent tracking and camping mob spawns. I, along with a lot of my guildmates choose to spend our time doing other things, and it comes at the cost of not killing as many raid bosses.

I also think this is a temporary problem. Right now there are few enough real raid bosses that one dedicated guild can keep them on lockdown. Come Plane of Air and Kunark that will no longer be the case.

[guineapig]

I also think this is a temporary problem. Right now there are few enough real raid bosses that one dedicated guild can keep them on lockdown. Come Plane of Air and Kunark that will no longer be the case.

At the risk of agreeing with Trimm again, PoAir will indeed change everything.
When a guild is up there, they aren't going to be jumping off whatever Island they are on just to go kill Vox or maestro for the 100th time.

[Arkanjil]

I have to agree with Trimm....go ahead and quote that.

The point that you guys are missing is that this ISN'T WoW with instanced zones where you can pick and choose which mob to kill at whatever time. In original EQ as well as in this project if you weren't a dedicated raider, you didn't have a good chance to kill the big raid mobs.

The end game of EQ wasn't built to appeal to the casual player who only had a few hours per day to play....mobs just didn't give you that option.

IB chooses to spend their free time doing what the top end guild on any server would/has done: making sure they are online to kill the raid mobs. This isn't anything new and if you are looking for an easy way out then there is always WoW for you.

If you can't compete on the same level as IB, bow your head and admit defeat. If you want to kill a raid mob, put in the dedication that those guys do and you might possibly get your kill. Also, stop putting out the notion that people in IB or whatever guilds have no lives. I bet if you look at the time played, they put in the same hours as any other person on this server. They just pick and choose the time to play when a raid mob spawns.

Putting raid mobs on a static spawn would not solve anything, it would just cause even MORE problems than there already is due to arguments over who got there first and guilds training other guilds.

Stop QQing in an attempt to build your post count!

[Wrei]

I think the thing you guys are missing is its not that fact that we cant track things or we cant do what you guys are doing. We can. Its just tough to plan real life events around a schedule like this.

In classic EQ, you could plan around the boss spawns to a point. You can barely do that here. You can plan a 2 to 4 day window around certain bosses, and you have to be on call for all of those hours. You then, after getting that mob, have to be ready for the next one, 6 per week. Anyone who wants every mob and a chance at real life is kidding themselves.

We weren't and aren't trying to QQ and whatnot. We are trying to come up with a solution that would eliminate cheating, and promote the overall health of the server. The fact that you guys (IB) are so angry and immediately aggainst what we had to say is frightening to say the least.

The fact that people do not want to elave their kids baseball games, jump ship from work, or get out of bed with their wives to jump on a raid boss at whatever time it may be sucks. Sure. But what sucks even worse is that you guys are able to do that and give yourselves completely up to an emulator. Thats awesome that you guys got naggy #1 and naggy #3546. I mean it really makes you look cool dude. Hasbin, go to a bar, get a girl, and tell that girl that you cant go to dinner the next evening because you need to log onto a guild druid and track for a boss. Whats she gonna say?

All you guys did was jump on the post and troll immediately. Trying to incite emotions, and shoot everyone else down without actually adding anything constructive to something that was supposed to be a good, adult discussion. I find it sad that at the age of 18, I feel more mature than most of you here.

And hasbin, look at your sig again. Are you really embracing the "live in your mom's basement and forum troll" lifestyle? You're pathetic dude.

So your lecturing us to get a life when your the very same guild who sat in front of nag for 14+hours (and want to make 24+hour camps).? Look we ALL play this game far too much (more then we should). Nobody is arguing that playing EQ is good for RL (whether it's emulated or not).

If I had a choice however between racing to a mob against "willing the other guild to quit" by sitting in front of a boss 24hour+ it really isn't hard for me to
choose. Give it time and each guild will get more then its share of bosses, when more content gets introduced it will be even more evident. Your the only guild that just keeps crying to get a boss handed to you on a silver platter. You want to raid? Fine then do the work like the rest of us (not just IB), stop whining get even.

[Maximus]

I'll post once and then Divinity is staying out of this.

We have 3 options for raid bosses:

A.) 7 day static spawn to the minute (i.e. Vox spawns next Thursday at 7:03pm)
B.) 7 day variant spawn +/- 48 hours (i.e. Vox spawns sometime in the next 120 hours)
C.) Rotation. (Fish Bait gets Vox)

Option C is off the table. There are too many guilds who can kill raid bosses if given the chance, and there is not enough end-game content to spread around to everyone evenly. Option A encourages spawn camping more than anything. First guild to have 15 people sitting at a staging area 24 hours before the known spawn time wins.

I completely agree with option C being off the table.
Option a doesnt encourage camping more than option B does. and if by god, a guild wants to camp a dragon for 7 days, i bow down to you.

That leaves option B. Between now and the next 120 hours, a boss will spawn. This option gives all guilds the same chance to track, mobilize and kill said spawn. If individuals want to camp a tracker in the zone for 5 days straight, so be it. We all have that option available to us.
If we're circling around to camping for 5 days straight, what is the whole purpose of the new system? camping is virtually the same in classical rules. and yes, we would all still have that option available.

You're argument against a spawn variance is very, very weak. If someone is so inclined to hack in order to gain an advantage on raid bosses, a few threads on the forums aren't going to stop them. It is up to the guilds to police their own members, and the devs to do what they can to track and detect hackers. If there was one member of my guild who constantly was alerting us that a boss was going to spawn, I'd have to question him. That said, with this thread you are accusing IB, Divinity, Fish Bait, In Virtue, Gothic Circle, Europa, and every other guild of hacking. Not only did you accuse us of this, you linked a site for a hacking program so anyone temped to use such programs knows right where to go. Stupid idea.

It is up to the guilds and GM to police members, but if we get down to it, honesty will not always prevail. and im not accusing Fish bait, IB divinity, in virtue, gothic circle, europa, and every other guild of hacking, im saying there is the POSSIBILITY, and i would much rather rid of that possibility. your just interpreting it in your own manner.
I linked a site for a hacking program? i dont know of any.

You want to know where Divinity stands, and I think I speak for my whole guild when I say we support the spawn variance. It may not be the 100% perfect solution, but it's the best of the above 3 options.[/QUOTE]

If variance is what you guys support, i appreciate the feedback. Thank you Divinity.

Mythoxxus

[karsten]

QQ on this thread: |----------------------X--|


pewpew on this thread: |--X----------------------|

become a better guild and stop blaming others for your own shortcomings. You've gotten your ass handed to you on this thread by GMs as well as other guilds, and instead of going back and saying "ok guys we need to work better as a unit, let's practice this and this" you continue to whine.

Our guild decided a long time ago that we were going to grind you whiney assholes into the ground, and already most of your douchebaggy leadership has done the whole "i'm gonna play another game i never liked that one anyways" thing. You should too.

[Maximus]

Ok let me get this straight:

1. A guild swooping down on a boss after it spawns (within minutes to hours-depending on when the boss spawns) means they got no jobs, no lives and no gf and are bums. Check

2. A guild "camping" an empty room for 24 hours means they got jobs, have important lives and have multiple girlfriends while being immensely successful in life. Check.
this is not necessarily true, and are only taunting words. you should know a little of that by know from your many trollers. either way, if it is not true, dont let it get to you.

3. Rotation is "fair" provided your one of the guilds "in" the rotation. Check.
i believe that is correct, and as soon as an outside guild was introduced, this rotation would not work, which is why it was taken out.

4. Rotation is NOT fair and we (trans) have been bitching diligently ever since it got implemented. Check.
your dramatizing this.
5. Trans is better than IB in every aspect, we talked the talk and haven't said anything when rotation got lifted to prove we are better. Check
6. After getting our (trans) ass kicked the current system must be flawed as there's no way IB can be better then us. Check.
.
same thing
7. Had we (trans) been dominating the raid content AFTER rotation got lifted we would have made sure to keep crying to change this "unfair" system. As we're all for the having "everyone and their mom" get boss kills every week. Check.
probably not to be honest with you. but i assure you someone with balls woulda have spoken up.

9. How does IB keep killing a boss before other guilds? They must be hacking no other explanation. Check.
you guys have put in hard work to track down mobs. i just want to promote FAIRNESS and COMPETITION to its fullest, as that was the main intent of the new rotation, and that lies with classical rotation.

10. We're (trans) telling you guys that such hacks exist and in fact will promote people to use it just to prove a point that the system is vulnerable. Once again we would have stated such things EVEN if trans were the ones killing all the bosses. Check.
we're not promoting the use of hacks, infact, we are doing everything to prevent it.

I could go on forever.... see the current system IS fair to all guilds. There were many times when IB was beat to a boss and lost our rights to the first attempt. We only got the kill after X guilds failed in their attempts, something that over time the other guilds will quickly pick up and before long other guilds will be killing their share.

The biggest joke in this whole issue is how Trans talked so much crap about how awesome they are then goes on to claim they really are a casual guild with average joe's best interest at heart. If everyone killing all the bosses every week was so important to you guys then why not just run your own private server? You can pop Nag every hour on the hour to get the "thrill" of killing X boss after 10years.

Not all raiding guilds are the same. To be successful you need people that are ALL on the same page. Something that a lot of the raiding guilds out there have a hard time building. IB is not "better" then any guilds out there. We just happen to be a bunch of individuals that all want the same things and believe in pulling our own weight to make it happen.

Lastly, this hacking thing is REALLY getting out of hand. I know you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing but it's really ridiculous to read some of the crap being posted here. You can even ask your ex trans guildmates that ended up joining us. Nobody in IB is hacking to spawn a boss, or predict when a boss spawns or w/e other nonsense you all believe in. It's called setting up a rotation of trackers (hard work omg) to mobilizing as quickly as we can. For a guild that's willing to sit in front of a boss 24 hours, I'm surprised you guys are having such a rough time figuring out when a boss pops.

I'll hit the keypoints among this whinefest. Yes, you, Inglourious Basterds, are better campers than we are. congratulations. and since this is the case, you guys should have no problem moving to classical rotation, where even MORE camping is encouraged, if wanted, and eliminate all possibility of third party software being an issue for, yes hear me out, NOT JUST YOUR GUILD, but any other guild that might hit the raiding scene.
Mythoxxus

[karsten]

did you just refer to this abortion of a thread that you created a "whinefest?"

[Maximus]

Taluvill: It strikes me that max's main point in the first post was to say that potential cheating via predicting raid mob spawns was the main reason that spawn varience sucks. Rogean has said that that is not possible. Has the point shifted or ???

No, my main point is, IF WE ARE TRYING TO PROMOTE FAIRNESS AND COMPETITION (nilbog), this lies in the classical system of everquest rotation, and not spawn variance.

Yes, while potentially we could be eliminating any use of cheats by using classic everquest, this is only a perk.

The camping in spawn variance seems to be exactly the same as the camping in classical rotation. which means we're back to square one. with more possibilities of third party software.

Mythoxxus

[Maximus]

I don't disagree with you. I just think a varied spawn timer gives everyone an equal chance at being the first to find a mob spawned and act accordingly.

Even if every player on the server knew Naggy will spawn at 10:22am Monday morning, you'll still have drama about who was there first and who trained who while clearing fire giants, etc etc. With the variance, there's seems to be more of a cut and dry 'who was there first' (to me at least). Again, there is no one solution that will be 100% fair to everyone, we're just working with the lesser of the evils.
Disagreements are always gonna be struck, but drama does not have to prevail everywhere. lets start acting like adults, and respect each other in game, without GMs having to babysit us over any dispute, which is what is happening anyways with vague spawn variance rules.

Divinity has not killed Vox or Innoruuk due to the varied spawn time yet. We've had our chances and due to whatever reason at the time we couldn't gather the force needed to down these mobs before someone else did. It sucks, but I accept that as part of the game.
as does Transcendence.
IB puts in the work and the hours required to have these mobs on lockdown. I'd love to be able to say they have GM help or use hacks, but it's simply not true. Every time I check Vox or Naggy on my tracker, IB is there waiting. If that's how they choose to spend their time in-game, then that's ok with me. They have been rewarded for that time spent tracking and camping mob spawns. I, along with a lot of my guildmates choose to spend our time doing other things, and it comes at the cost of not killing as many raid bosses.
yes indeed, IB is master campers, once again, congrats. lets take it to the next level for them then, and increase camping time, to actually give them a challenge, since they are masters in this field.

I also think this is a temporary problem. Right now there are few enough real raid bosses that one dedicated guild can keep them on lockdown. Come Plane of Air and Kunark that will no longer be the case.
I wanna agree with you, but i believe the dramafest will continue with the current system, until we can start acting like adults, and GMs leave it be for classical purposes. Earn your respect in game, and be respected by others.

[Arkanjil]

Mythoxxus read my post and stop whining this is getting old.

[Maximus]

I have to agree with Trimm....go ahead and quote that.

The point that you guys are missing is that this ISN'T WoW with instanced zones where you can pick and choose which mob to kill at whatever time. In original EQ as well as in this project if you weren't a dedicated raider, you didn't have a good chance to kill the big raid mobs.
I don't know what WOW has anything to do with this thread. never played it, not interested in it.
The end game of EQ wasn't built to appeal to the casual player who only had a few hours per day to play....mobs just didn't give you that option.
very true.
IB chooses to spend their free time doing what the top end guild on any server would/has done: making sure they are online to kill the raid mobs. This isn't anything new and if you are looking for an easy way out then there is always WoW for you.
Once again, not looking for an easy way out, or WOW, just making it more classical and challenging for everyone.

If you can't compete on the same level as IB, bow your head and admit defeat. If you want to kill a raid mob, put in the dedication that those guys do and you might possibly get your kill. Also, stop putting out the notion that people in IB or whatever guilds have no lives. I bet if you look at the time played, they put in the same hours as any other person on this server. They just pick and choose the time to play when a raid mob spawns.
/bows head. No i cannot compete with the amount of camping you guys do. I admit defeat.

Putting raid mobs on a static spawn would not solve anything, it would just cause even MORE problems than there already is due to arguments over who got there first and guilds training other guilds.
Have you been amongst the raiding scene yet? you could not be more wrong, and if people wanna act immature about certain situations, let the players handle that in their own manner.

Stop QQing in an attempt to build your post count!

It's been my dream ever since i was little to have the HIGHEST post count in a threadsite, although you have one more post than i do, you rat bastard. dont ruin my dreams =p.

Thanks for the input.

[Maximus]

QQ on this thread: |----------------------X--|


pewpew on this thread: |--X----------------------|

become a better guild and stop blaming others for your own shortcomings. You've gotten your ass handed to you on this thread by GMs as well as other guilds, and instead of going back and saying "ok guys we need to work better as a unit, let's practice this and this" you continue to whine.

Our guild decided a long time ago that we were going to grind you whiney assholes into the ground, and already most of your douchebaggy leadership has done the whole "i'm gonna play another game i never liked that one anyways" thing. You should too.

Sounds familiar Karsten. what happened to VZ/TZ?

[Arkanjil]

You wanted other people throw their input in and you got what you asked for. I think you have a problem with just accepting it and letting this issue go.

I'm not in IB, sorry to burst your bubble.

Ive done raids here on the server, yes, and high end raiding on live. I don't believe I'm wrong because you guys have done a considerable amount of whining about raid mobs since Transcendence has reached raiding point. The other guilds have accepted the fact that IB is tough as nails to beat to a mob, but take it as a challenge.

Good luck on your raid at 6pm tonight though.

[Maximus]

You wanted other people throw their input in and you got what you asked for. I think you have a problem with just accepting it and letting this issue go.

I'm not in IB, sorry to burst your bubble.

Ive done raids here on the server, yes, and high end raiding on live. I don't believe I'm wrong because you guys have done a considerable amount of whining about raid mobs since Transcendence has reached raiding point. The other guilds have accepted the fact that IB is tough as nails to beat to a mob, but take it as a challenge.

Good luck on your raid at 6pm tonight though.
Cool thanks.
Back to FAIREST AND MOST COMPETITIVE rotation conversation. Classical rotation has my vote.

[Erik]

It isn't fair...cry...fix it....cry. If you spent as much time playing as crying maybe you would get some raid mobs. What is it with you stop bitching and play.
In the words of Karsten less QQ more pew pew.
As a side note this is not a shot at trans most of you guys have been cool but these whiners on the forums give a bad impression

[Zexa]

and since this is the case, you guys should have no problem moving to classical rotation, where even MORE camping is encouraged, if wanted, and eliminate all possibility of third party software being an issue for, yes hear me out, NOT JUST YOUR GUILD, but any other guild that might hit the raiding scene.
Mythoxxus

You are seriously going to keep on with the conspiracy theory that someone hacked the system and can see the exact spawn time of raid mobs? If only you had the same persistence in game.

There are only two plausible reasons for your logic on this whole raid situation. The first being that you guys are as delusional as you sound and think that knowing the exact second a raid target spawns will keep the hackers from being able to mobilize the second something spawns and gong back to the petition fest and GM intervention will benefit us all.

Or...since I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, you have come up with this clever scheme that would do exactly the above. Guild A and B would both camp a spawn with 15 people for days, and when one person from guild A goes LD, guild B would claim now they have first attempt since they have a screenshot showing guild B has 15 while guild A has 14. Both disagree. Both engage at once. Situation becomes unmanageable, and we get some worse ruleset put into play. Perhaps we'd get rotation back because we couldn't make it work?

This whole thread is very difficult for a lot of us to understand. Other than removing the magic 8-ball telling someone spawn times, you've said that it would increase times you need to camp mobs and make the system more fair for all. Why don't you spend 5 days camping these said mobs with the current system in place and while the other guilds continue to use the tracker system, you'll already have your selected mobs on lock down. It seems the other guilds favor this new system.

[Trimm]

Cool thanks.
Back to FAIREST AND MOST COMPETITIVE rotation conversation. Classical rotation has my vote.

I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, I just don't see it changing anything. Say as of tomorrow we went to a classic 7 day static spawn, whats the difference? It will just turn into a game of who can get 15 people there the earliest, and then lead to threads calling <guild> losers for having a raid ready 24 hours before the spawn.

Also technically, in order to make it 100% fair, you'd have to tell every guild exactly what time each boss is due to spawn. It would be unfair if Divinity knew the timers and In Virtue didn't.

[Arkanjil]

I think Mythoxxus should join IB....maybe then he would stop complaining and love life a little more.

Just my 2cp.

[karsten]

a number of things happened on vztz including what we're doing to you. It included a concentrated effort of harried pvp, and also a wholly incompetent staff. I was banned for example at one point for calling Gronkus' wife fat in the wedding pictures he posted. We fought back, got maybe a quarter of the spawns, not really a secret on how that all panned out. Some of the issues on this server are different than on a pvp server of course, and there was an ebb and flow of what the GMs decided was fair practice and what was not with regards to training and corpse camping and such.

Anyways, whining to GMs and trying to change the rule set is not one of the ways that we reacted.

oh, also, you wouldn't last ten minutes there brew

[Zithax]

Hey so like, why didn't you guys post this thread when the rotation was implemented instead of months after the variance system has been in place? Seriously. You can't answer this question legitimately so don't even try.

Just to reiterate.

[Wrei]

Is myth the only member from Trans that actually believes this? Or does all Trans member share in his deluded conspiracy theories? Since when does IB "CAMP" a boss? Having trackers track stuff is 1 thing, getting the raid force mobilized AFTER a boss spawns is an entirely different issue. At no point did IB EVER CAMP a boss like you guys did.

What do you think is more sad, having a person check for a boss every 30min? Or having an entire raid force picking their nose in front of a boss room just to show the rest of the server how "hardcore" you guys are in wanting a boss. After reading through all of this whining I am now convinced that Myth only wants a few things guys. It isn't about fair or unfair, it's about what Myth wants and needs for his guild without having to do any work.

1. Trans wants a boss popped every week by a GM just for them. If any other guild dared to touch "their" boss they would be banned 14 days then subsequently perma banned on a repeat offense.

2. Trans wants to choose what items a boss drops, seriously why bother killing the dragon 15 times to get 2 items they need? Why not kill it twice get the 2 items and be done with it.

3. Trans members lead such busy lives that a boss cannot be spawned by its own schedule, when a Trans officer petitions (a GM must be online 24/7 to answer to Trans issues) a boss of their choice (depending on class balance availability) needs to be spawned at a time of their own choosing.

4. All other needs to realize that Trans needs this, if you cannot understand this then you don't understand what CLASSIC means. Seriously stop being UNFAIR to us, Trans is a "special" guild filled with "special" people that needs "special" treatment. Get with the program or else we will keep on making 1 retarded thread after another until we make positive changes that are "FAIR TO TRANS".

5. Trans finally wants to be recognized as being a super cool friendly guild that are skilled at what they are doing. Seriously look at all the cool dragon loots they've gotten. Join team Trans now!

[Maximus]

Like i said, i have brought this issue up already with Nilbog and Aeolwind in IRC. Ever since i took over raid leadership, i have been working on this.
I have made my point and shared my feelings on the current situation, with the Pros and Cons of all aspects. Thank you for your time,
May the trolling continue.
Mythoxxus

[Hasbinbad]

Since when does IB "CAMP" a boss?
I'm sitting here at school in the library, reading this shit, and in between bouts of laughter - making everyone stare at me - I had time to wonder why the fuck nobody has said this.

IB hasn't "camped" a single raid mob, Maxipad.

Also, you keep confusing your words. Please do your best to differentiate between systems, clearly labeling which would benefit your crew of bitches the best. I could sit here and quote all your contradictions, but this chick's tits are literally hanging out of her blouse like 2 feet from me and I just don't give a fuck.

Hella funny tho! Please keep the QQ going, don't listen to Karsten. Pew-pew isn't needed HERE, and the QQ keeps me happy!

[Dukat]

That said, with this thread you are accusing IB, Divinity, Fish Bait, In Virtue, Gothic Circle, Europa, and every other guild of hacking. Not only did you accuse us of this, you linked a site for a hacking program so anyone temped to use such programs knows right where to go. Stupid idea.


I have never run a hacking program so my knowledge of them is purely secondhand. I had heard some pretty crazy accounts from users of these programs so admittedly my suspicions were very high. If Rogean is pretty sure they can't read the time on boss mobs, then I actually feel very relieved about the current system. It might not be for everyone but I for one will wake up in the middle of the night to chase a spawn. But it does favor hardcore guilds and more casual guilds will probably never see boss loot. That's fine.

And no, I haven't accused all those guilds of hacking, any more than I accuse Trans of hacking. I was stating the possibility and trying to elicit a GM response. Thank you for setting me straight Rogean.

[Pheer]

The 4 new pages of this thread since I last looked at it were A+ entertainment.

Hours later mythoxxus is still convinced we have some kind of master hackers in our guild that also practice wizardry in their spare time and thus can glean the exact spawn times of spawn variance mobs with our magic/machine hybrid pc's that are powered by evil itself.

PS. Mine also has a liquid cooling system that uses the blood of the innocent, its awesome.

[Zexa]

The 4 new pages of this thread since I last looked at it were A+ entertainment.

Hours later mythoxxus is still convinced we have some kind of master hackers in our guild that also practice wizardry in their spare time and thus can glean the exact spawn times of spawn variance mobs with our magic/machine hybrid pc's that are powered by evil itself.

PS. Mine also has a liquid cooling system that uses the blood of the innocent, its awesome.

Behold! Hacks from the future!

http://www.simpliss.com/admin/site/images/magic8ball.jpg

[yaaaflow]

I was so disappointed when i saw someone rated this thread lower than 5, but now it is a 4.20 rating so that is pretty cool too tia

[Otto]

Pointless drivel that is three months too late

More Pointless drivel that is three months too late

http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1469&highlight=raid+rotation

You guys are absolutely ridiculous. What you (trans) want is what we (IB) were fighting for from December 1st-15th (the events leading up to the post in the link above) until the rotation was lifted.

Apparently you missed the memo. During those months while you were laughing to yourselves that you had effectively taken all sense of competition out of the game, we were campaigning to have the raid rule-set removed from the server. After many weeks of rage induced posts and PMs, (or as Nilbog dubbed these documents 'the ocean of tears') the decision was made by the dev staff that the only truly fair way they could have a close to classic raid system that didn't require them to step in for every encounter was to add spawn variance to the raid targets.

Sorry you didn't want the competition then, but if everyone could have agreed on a classic, live-like system with first to engage rules then you wouldn't be in this predicament right now. Yes, I am saying that having the first 15 near the raid target does not entitle you to that mob, but the GMs disagree with me, and that's why the rules are how they are.

You are three months too late. Nilbog and his team have said many many times that they want absolutely no responsibility in how we manage the raids on the server, and that's what they have gotten... except when you tried to leapfrog and KS Divinity. That was funny.

[Taluvill]

Sorry you didn't want the competition then, but if everyone could have agreed on a classic, live-like system with first to engage rules then you wouldn't be in this predicament right now. Yes, I am saying that having the first 15 near the raid target does not entitle you to that mob.


Thats what this thread is about. Bring that back. After trying all the systems, most people on the server dont care for rotation or spawn variance, and would rather have this.

You just said it, we started this thread to say it and hear some ideas...

What they should do is 2 week the entire raid force that tries to KS someone else. 2nd time is Perma Ban. they may have to intervene for a week(i doubt that at all) but it would be quickly fixed and no one would KS, and if someone else got first to engage, people would back off with huge consequences like that.

[Otto]

most people on the server dont care for rotation or spawn variance, and would rather have this

I think this thread has proven you wrong on that.


Anyway, The dev staff has been vehemently against that idea since we began advocating for it before the rotation even went into effect.

Now with ~5 raid guilds ready to compete for targets, I can guarantee you they would be even less willing to consider the idea of a 'first to engage' system.

[Hasbinbad]

After trying all the systems, most people on the server dont care for rotation or spawn variance, and would rather have this.
Who? I mean, seriously.. Besides you and your couple of buddies, who?
Where is the passionate outcry from the rest of the server? Why the absence of actual support from the rest of the server if they all agree? All I have seen is people from other guilds say that they want to beat us. That's fucking rad, and I wish more power to them. I hope they beat us honestly. I root for every non-IB guild OVER IB except Trans actually. I was sad when I felt that I MUST help kill a boss after div or FB wiped.. Not that we would have stopped regardless, but somewhere long forgotten, deep down within, I felt a twinge of conscience over it. ..but then I realize that if we step aside, div will not appeciate it. They are warriors. They are not pussy bitches who can't take, so instead beg (I -swear- I'm "not" pointing fingers). They can, and will take, and when they do what they get will be THEIRS and nobody will be able to say "oh yeah, IB gave that to you."

I just don't understand why you guys would want anything different.

..oh yes I do..

To everyone else:
http://alt.cimedia.com/ajc/jpg/polinsider/koolaid1.JPG

[Samuel]

Otto and Hasbinbad ended this thread.

[Rhalous]

I, personally, prefer the variance system. It can be hard to play EQ when RL commitments come into the picture and even harder still to assist in tracking and killing boss encounters. However, this is how it SHOULD be. I do not expect to play ball when I can't get to the game.

Even though this is a game, you can apply some real world concepts to it. Whether it is used to describe economics, biology, or p99 raid kills, the phrase "survival of the fittest" has some meaning. What you are witnessing is a guild who has adapted with the current ruleset. IB is not the only guild that has done so, but they also, currently, have the best setup when it comes to spawn response time.

That being said, you should expect any other guild that wants to kill bosses to do one of two things. Either said guild will assess their own situation and adapt to the current ruleset, ensuring they have a higher chance at boss encounters, or they will become complacent with the fact that they will not get bosses. It really is not that difficult of a concept. Divinity assessed its situation as soon as the variance system came out and will continue to improve.

When I read these boards, the one thing that I see is a lack of foresight. Good things take time, commitment, and a little blind luck. Divinity has worked very hard to be where it is right now and we are looking forward to gameplay throughout Kunark and into Velious. While we enjoy the shots we get at bosses and the competition that comes from them, we understand that this server is in its infancy. We are building an empire(although some would call it a republic), which will take time and commitment to reach the level of success that we expect from ourselves.

[Stonewall]

We are building an empire(although some would call it a republic), which will take time and commitment to reach the level of success that we expect from ourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0

[Verose]

<insert thoughtful and accurate post> /thread

.

[Reiker]

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4718/haters2.gif

[karsten]

god rhalous just kicked your collective asses so hard

[Jify]

Secretly.. I also root for other guilds when we race against them. I've told some Divinity members myself that IB appreciates them and wants to see them succeed. I can't say the same for Transcendance. (nothing against the members, I love some of you! Bubz come back!)

Anyway..

Opinions have been presented. Everyone except Myth is in favour of spawn variance. Rogean has stated that hacking is highly unlikely. All arguements fall through to this point.

Let it be known: Myth does not agree with spawn variance.

Thread complete?

[Taminy]

Eh, Divinity member here who does not like the spawn variance :p not that I'm going to QQ until it gets changed though.

However, I think more frequent spawning would be nice to simulate the frequent patches and server crashes on live. Maybe lower dragons/gods to 5 days +/- and I can't remember what the spawn time is for maestro and draco? 3 days? If so good enough, if they're 5 days lower them to 4 or 3.5? /shrug

This would also help shift dragons/gods to different days quicker.

[Humerox]

Actually, I think Taminy is spot on. Increasing spawn rate is a good idea. When I started playing it was about a week before Kunark release. When I leveled enough to understand the *cough* intricacies of hi-end guild politics, I switched servers because I knew I was never going to see a raid mob.

When Stromm came around, I hopped on that bandwagon and had great fun with Lost Sock Patrol going the giant faction route through Velious cuz we were racing two other hi-end guilds, and we decided to back-end them by taking that route.

Those choices aren't available here. More guilds are moving into hi-end, and increasing spawn rate would give a lot more capable guilds a great shot at seeing boss content.

[Hasbinbad]

I dunno about "increasing spawn rate," but I do miss the thrill of patch day spawns..

Patch day spawns would virtually ensure every raid guild get's at least an attempt at at least one boss.

[Zexa]

Eh, Divinity member here who does not like the spawn variance :p not that I'm going to QQ until it gets changed though.

However, I think more frequent spawning would be nice to simulate the frequent patches and server crashes on live. Maybe lower dragons/gods to 5 days +/- and I can't remember what the spawn time is for maestro and draco? 3 days? If so good enough, if they're 5 days lower them to 4 or 3.5? /shrug

This would also help shift dragons/gods to different days quicker.

I'm with you on patch days. The connotation I have with the term "patch day" is such a fun one. It meant that there was a potential buffet of raid targets when I was next able to get back on.

[Hasbinbad]

I'm with you on patch days. The connotation I have with the term "patch day" is such a fun one. It meant that there was a potential buffet of raid targets when I was next able to get back on.
A smorgasbord!!

Maxipad, this is a bandwagon I think EVERYONE can jump on to get more bosses distributed amongst more guilds without feeling like we got handed something. If you wanna campaign for this, even YOU would have MY support, and I bet most of the playerbase would get behind it.

[Trimm]

If you wanna campaign for this, even YOU would have MY support, and I bet most of the playerbase would get behind it.

Oh, I'm sure I can think of a particular guild that will find some way to rally against it. Just a hunch.

[Crone]

Would it really make a difference or just give IB more loot? Servers usually came back up from patches mid day... and IB seems to be the only one that can get people on mid day to kill targets.

So how would things change?

[drplump]

Would it really make a difference or just give IB more loot? Servers usually came back up from patches mid day... and IB seems to be the only one that can get people on mid day to kill targets.

So how would things change?

Explain how IB can kill naggy, vox, and CT at the same time.

[Crone]

It's IB.. duh. ;)

Point taken though.. I forgot that every mob would be up. However, if a guild can't get a raid force for something mid day, what's stopping IB just going from target to target and just taking them all out.

[Hasbinbad]

Hey, nothing is stopping us from that, and that's exactly what we would try to do..

However, at least the other guilds would have a better chance at selecting a target.. You'd have at least an hour or two while we gathered and set up for one mob after the other.. If a guild can't work with that kind of a time window, I dunno what to say. I'm perfectly happy with the current system, and am only trying to help OTHER guilds with this idea. Yes IB would get another mob or two per patch day (almost guaranteed), but so too would other guilds have a shot to kill (their choice of) bosses without IB breathing down their necks.

Lets say that IB gathers 30 people 10 minutes after a patch: if IB went after vox, not only would all 4 other bosses be free while we all get to perma and pull giants and set up (30-50 minutes?), but the planes would have a god and a deity free, so if we choose a dragon, it's likely that 2 OTHER guilds will get at LEAST 2 targets, with a third possibility for naggy while we're busy.

[Bayleo]

I have enormous respect for Mythoxx, he's an awesome player. And I'm not saying that I exactly have the credentials to even weigh in on this discussion, since I was not around for most of it. But it seems to me that the GMs are in an impossible position. The fact of the matter is that there is simply not enough content to satisfy this many hard-core gamers. There wasn't in classic EQ back in '99 either.

The bright side of this all is that the loot that these classic raid mobs drop is complete dog shit, and like 80% of the lvl 50 gamers on p99 have already realized, the next 6 months or so would probably be better spent talking to actual real people, getting a library card, picking up a base tan, or getting a second (or first) job. In summation, this is way too much nerdrage for such a very unimportant era of raiding.

[Jify]

It's IB.. duh. ;)

Point taken though.. I forgot that every mob would be up. However, if a guild can't get a raid force for something mid day, what's stopping IB just going from target to target and just taking them all out.

Shhh Krone.. want a PL? ;D

[bled12345]

+/- 48 hour spawn timer... theoretically you could be camping vox or nagafen for 90 hours...............

I never killed a dragon in original EQ, or cleared an entire plane, our guild is just starting to break into fear and whatnot.

If it takes 90 hours of dedication to kill vox or naggy, as fun as that would be ummmmmmm... PASS kk thanks :D




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bashndash - 45 ogre war <(-------- leaving for work weeeeeeeeeeeee!

[bled12345]

The fact that people are willing to track major spawns for upwards of 90 hours is insane btw lol.

[Wenai]

I only read up to like page 6 honestly. Some pretty funny stuff in here.

Yeah Nizzarr came up with it, I know that. I snapped at him hella hard over that. If you remember, I had several OTHER ideas.

The fact that Nizzarr wrote the framework for the current system has NOTHING to do with the fact that NILBOG implemented it. Moron.

KS is a SERVER rule. The only SERVER rule that covered the Nagafen situation that night. That you're implying it's somehow my rule is cute. You're cute.

Not implying GM favoritism dude. Not implying anything. I threw my hands up in the air as to the "why" of that (and many other) situations a long time ago.

Funny story. What happened was I saw Divinity working their way up ladder and knew we would have problems with the rotation shortly. So I began taking the infrastructure of Nizzarr's post (as it was the best suggestion that we had gotten) and started working on the system. I asked Zyrek and Xzerion for their input and asked them to work closely with me since they were both active raiding members of two opposing guilds. I figured they would have some input as to what was important to their guilds. After the system was written up I brought it to Nilbog and we worked through it and tinkered with it. It then went to a proposal on January 13, 2010 for approval from the entire staff. We had some argument about certain aspects but in reality everyone had a part in making the system and trying to make it as fair as possible and I think the spawn variance is doing pretty good. Aside from people trying to twist the rules and such.

The spawn variance wasn't added until February 5, 2010, so there was discussion on the matter. Daydrem didn't make a post regarding the rotation on the main forums until January 30, 2010. I was hoping to have the system in place before it became an issue.

From past discussions on the forums it seemed like people wanted both fairness and competition and the GM staff wants a system where we don't have to babysit. Aside from a few situations, we haven't had to do much of that so it seems like a success thus far.

IB and you guys Whined and cried because we could camp a mob for a long time. Big whoop. So you almost trained/killed us/KS'ed us because you guys decided the rules didn't apply to you. I specifically remember Wenai saying that. They changed to a rotation because you guys were going overboard.
I stand by those comments. Basically how the server had worked from day one was that if someone was there before you, then you had to respect their space and let them have their shot. After Transcendence began taking the system to the extreme, IB threatened to KS and impose on your "camp." I still feel that they decided that the rules didn't apply to them but in a discussion with Otto at one point or another (unfortunately I don't have any logs) he had said they were basically trying to force our hands.
Bring back regular spawns with set camping rules (IE: Must have 20 Present at the encounter to claim it. You then move out to a pull spot when your about 30 minutes from the pop, buff and get ready, it pops, it dies)What is stopping you from camping the raid target you desire? Did you even read the raid system rules?

Q: Can we continue to camp the raid mobs?
A: Certainly. If you want to have fifteen of your guild members sitting at every spawn site (six mobs to be precise) for 96 hours straight anticipating a spawn with the ability to mobilize not only those fifteen people but as well as any other required members to kill your intended target, all within the 30 minute time frame. By all means go ahead. I am sure after a few failed sessions due to not being able to mobilize quick enough, people won`t be willing to sit there for 4 days straight for months on end.
If you guys want Nagafen for example. Go to Fire Giants, sit there for days 5-9 and you will get the first shot at it. The rules are still there to allow you to camp what you want.


The GM ruled in Transcendence's favor, for WHATEVER REASON, but that does NOT FUCKING IMPLY that the rules were like that in the first place. You fucking moron.
We ruled in the server's favor. Probably 70+% of the server doesn't give a shit about your guys' feuding. Most of your guilds probably don't give a shit about your feuding. It is the same 10-15 people week in week out bitching and ranting all the time. The thing is that your average P1999 player doesn't give a shit about these situations and it certainly doesn't help to attract new players when threads like these pop up.

It was only after THAT incident, and not any whining from IB, that the decision to implement the rotation was made public.We were hoping you guys would work something out on your own. Aeolwind and I had both talked to Allizia/Otto trying to encourage them to work something out. Neither wanted to do it so we did what we had to do.

2 things:
a.) The "old way" (old system would be a misnomer) WAS THE PROBLEM. It required GM involvement every time. You guys were given Nagafen on a ONE TIME basis in respect for your time spent (or whatEVER), there was never "camping" allowed on raid mobs, and no amount of QQ will ever make that true.
b.) The GM's (Aeolwind and Wenai) stated then that the rotation was a temporary solution, sticking a finger in the dike (^^), to end the need for GM intervention. This rule was NOT IMPLEMENTED because of any amount of bitching, no matter how romantic that sounds in your novel.Yep. I had stressed from the very beginning that it was temporary. I had stressed MULTIPLE times that I encouraged people to come up with an alternative solution. The funny myth is that it was me who came up with the rotation and forced it on everyone etc etc. The truth is that both Zyrek and Xzerion expressed their concern on the growing situation. Everyone discussed it together and decided for the time being that it was the best temporary solution.

No one is saying you GMs are popping off any commands in anyones advantage, and believe me i am very grateful for the work you guys have put into the server, as i still enjoy it daily.
But, if you guys are wanting to promote Fairness and Competition, there are better ways and more classicly oriented ways to promote those things.

Mythoxxus
I don't see how it is unfair. A creature can spawn any time in a 5 to 9 day span. No one knows when they are going to spawn (including GMs because we don't care enough to check). Everyone has a fair shot to get to a creature first. I am sure everyone knows when every raid target dies. It is called choosing your battles. If you know that creature X died more than 7 days ago. Maybe you should try really hard to keep everyone near that area. Maybe you should raid that plane every evening and hope for a spawn while you are there. It is a matter of just having better planning really.

I don't know how the guilds are operating under the variance. But if every guild just has a bunch of trackers in every zone and as soon as something spawns everyone just rushes to assemble then there are going to be people getting left out a lot. The best thing to do would be to just raid the plane with the target you want. Whether it is Draco, CT, Inny... whatever. Just plan better.

[Otto]

I stand by those comments. Basically how the server had worked from day one was that if someone was there before you, then you had to respect their space and let them have their shot. After Transcendence began taking the system to the extreme, IB threatened to KS and impose on your "camp." I still feel that they decided that the rules didn't apply to them but in a discussion with Otto at one point or another (unfortunately I don't have any logs) he had said they were basically trying to force our hands.

Once again this ridiculous claim has arisen.

When Allizia and I were asked to come to an agreement on rules, one was NEVER come to. We could not agree on what to do because the GMs would not allow us to try the first to engage classic ruleset. For some reason in Wenai's mind, one that I'll never understand, the act of sitting near the spawn point of a raid mob entitles you to a free shot at said raid mob. This is not how it was on my server, nor many of my fellow guild member's servers. However, since we had been asked to try to make some of our own rules we came up with an idea of what we would follow, and we said we would try it out. After two-three weeks of trying it, my guild and I agreed that it was absurd and anything short of a classic raid scene is just stupid. Then, Five days before the next raid target would spawn, I contacted Allizia and informed him that we were going to try the classic raid style. He did not protest. At least, not to me.

As we found out 5 days later during that infamous naggy raid, the GMs had gotten wind of us deciding to try the new raid system and stopped it before it could happen. It was then that the server's rotation system was implemented.

As far as me trying to force your hands, of course I did that. It was time for there to be either a classic, no holds barred (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/no-holds-barred.html) raid environment, or for the GMs to make their call and force their views on what raiding should be like. Having a GM Enforced raid system is ridiculous. I said that at the beginning, I'm still saying that now over a month after the rotation was lifted, and I will continue to say and think it until it is gone (which we all know it won't be, so I'll just stay disgruntled about that because this server is too good to pass up over that one issue).

Once again, it comes down to the fact that we wanted a competitive, classic environment from the beginning, and other people either didn't want that or had a different (read: wrong) view of that.

http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/216118.1020.A.jpg

[guineapig]

This may sound dumb but what if the following all popped at the same time:

Inny, Maestro, Vox, Naggy, CT, Draco

Then every raid guild would have to pick their target and at least 3 guilds would have a chance to pick a target and at least attempt it (possibly as many as 6 guilds).

This would eliminate the possibility of any guild having a monopoly each week... (well at least during North American prime time.)

[Excision Rottun]

This may sound dumb but what if the following all popped at the same time:

Inny, Maestro, Vox, Naggy, CT, Draco

Then every raid guild would have to pick their target and at least 3 guilds would have a chance to pick a target and at least attempt it (possibly as many as 6 guilds).

This would eliminate the possibility of any guild having a monopoly each week... (well at least during North American prime time.)

This had crossed my mind too.

However it would exclude guilds not in North American timezone, such as Europa from ever having a decent chance at a raid target.

As well guilds would race to the ones they could down the quickest (Vox and Naggy maybe?) then fight each other as they cleared to the next ones, (planar gods) in an attempt to get as many kills in a night as possible.

[Ferok]

This had crossed my mind too.

However it would exclude guilds not in North American timezone, such as Europa from ever having a decent chance at a raid target.

As well guilds would race to the ones they could down the quickest (Vox and Naggy maybe?) then fight each other as they cleared to the next ones, (planar gods) in an attempt to get as many kills in a night as possible.

Seems like if you retained the randomness down to +- 24 hours, guilds like Europa would be SOL sometimes, but hitting the jackpot others... no?

[guineapig]

This had crossed my mind too.

However it would exclude guilds not in North American timezone, such as Europa from ever having a decent chance at a raid target.

As well guilds would race to the ones they could down the quickest (Vox and Naggy maybe?) then fight each other as they cleared to the next ones, (planar gods) in an attempt to get as many kills in a night as possible.

Not exactly, because:

Seems like if you retained the randomness down to +- 24 hours, guilds like Europa would be SOL sometimes, but hitting the jackpot others... no?

Correct. :D

Basically the spawns could still happen at 4am EST or 8pm Central, you never know. And if only one guild has a raid force ready at that time they can have at it. But otherwise, they have to pick their spots.

This is essentially like simulating a server reset, which was previously mentioned. And like a server reset it should happen like 1-2 times per week to simulate classic. Hell, you could even keep the current spawn variance while adding this "simulated reset" if you really wanted to keep that authentic feel.

[Excision Rottun]

Not exactly, because:



Correct. :D

Basically the spawns could still happen at 4am EST or 8pm Central, you never know. And if only one guild has a raid force ready at that time they can have at it. But otherwise, they have to pick their spots.

This is essentially like simulating a server reset, which was previously mentioned. And like a server reset it should happen like 1-2 times per week to simulate classic. Hell, you could even keep the current spawn variance while adding this "simulated reset" if you really wanted to keep that authentic feel.

I like the cut of your jib.

[KrimzinIV]

This may sound dumb but what if the following all popped at the same time:

Inny, Maestro, Vox, Naggy, CT, Draco

Then every raid guild would have to pick their target and at least 3 guilds would have a chance to pick a target and at least attempt it (possibly as many as 6 guilds).

This would eliminate the possibility of any guild having a monopoly each week... (well at least during North American prime time.)

Great Idea, if it worked like this and spawns happened at 4am EST on a weekday it still gives poopsockers an advantage but if it spawns at 8pm primetime it gives guilds like Divinity and possibly Gothic Circle and In Virtue a chance for a kill.

[Zithax]

Great Idea, if it worked like this and spawns happened at 4am EST on a weekday it still gives poopsockers an advantage but if it spawns at 8pm primetime it gives guilds like Divinity and possibly Gothic Circle and In Virtue a chance for a kill.

we should instance them all, so all 6 guilds can kill all 6 raid mobs, everybody wins guys

yeah

[jilena]

I am a complete and utter newbie on this server however I have always felt one of the biggest things seperating Everquest from all of the other MMOs was the direct competition for content. It's my feeling that promoting any sort of rules to defer this direct competition into some sort of friendly handholding governed by a policy for playing nice ruins what makes this game so great. I feel that if you can take a spawn and kill it first that should be considered legitimate.

All of this silliness and talk of "stealing" kills and raiding rules is ridiculous. I hated the day the play nice policy was introduced by Sony and if there is anything that should be kept "non-classic" about this server it should be this.

I don't understand this whole feeling of entitlement. I want to have nice things IRL and wish I had Bill Gates' bank account to bankroll my shopping sprees. Unfortunately he was a better business man, had a better product, was there first, or maybe just had a ridiculous amount of luck cuz he has a huge bank account. So while I can afford to make ends meet I can't claim to have all of life's luxuries available to me. This seems to me a pretty sane thing and how the world works.

Taking the same view in Everquest: sure I want nice things for my character. I could use a good deal more wis and mana gear for my cleric as my current mana pool is pretty sux. I'd love some planar and dragon loots (Where is my White Dragonscale Cloak?!). However I understand to get these things I need to be the best or at least one of the best. I want to have the challenge of trying to reach that point and not have my loot defaulted to me or my guild based on some system to appease whiners.

I say fight for it. Make KSing legal. First to grab a mob and kill it gets the loot. Take a strong stance that GMs only intervene in the case that exploits were involved. Let it be known that GMs will ignore all whining about KSing or "unfair" mob stealing be it a raid mob or otherwise.

Let competition reign supreme.

*shrug*

Zarina

[Bayleo]

Normally I would take the Ayn Rand/crygirls can suck it approach with you Jilena. However, it is a server whose main goal is to promote nostalgia among old-school gamers, not to be a chode-measuring contest among job-seeking basement dwellers. 10 years ago, being the first to have a CoF was pretty awesome. Today only .000065% of the gaming population even gives a shit. So, it does tend to defeat the purpose when only 20 people get to enjoy the content that was SPECIFICALLY GENERATED for people to re-enjoy. Therefore, compromise, in this case, is necessary.

Of all of the solutions I've heard so far, guinea's suggestion is by far the coolest. It bears less 24/7 nerdcamping, and would give each guild the chance to have a raid experience, if only on a weekly basis. That strategy combined with the 24+ hour variance would, in my opinion, be a solution worth considering. Mobs spawn all spawn at a random time. The elite guild would get more than one boss, and the pick of the litter, and maybe some free time to flex their masturbation hands. Nub guilds would get to smack on some fire giants.

[Gwence]

wenai said it best...

plan better.

[sociald187]

Man Is A Fool

As a rule, man is a fool,
When it's hot, he wants it cool;
When it's cool, he wants it hot,
Always wanting what is not.
Anonymous

[Ektar]

me reach end?

[Slake]

I was on a server with a rotation. It worked because the guilds honored it. Seems there are guilds here that cant/wont honor such a system.

I was in perma and saw IB come in. Someone shouted "Vox Up?" IB responded "Nope, just here to practice killing giants to get there faster".

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Seems like someone takes raiding serious and wants the loots. Sounds like a smart ass move to me.

Have not seen nor heard of any other guild trying this. If IB beats everyone to a boss, well, they worked harder for it.

Those of you who are whining..and i cant stress whining enough, learn from the best. They get there first because they TRY! They dont sit there and whine about changing a system because they cant compete.

Oh mytho...i do not give you permission to quote me in any way shape or form. If you do, i will press charges against you. You have been warned sir.

Paok

p.s. that was the longest 17 page read of my life and I wish I had the time back.

[Taminy]

I dunno about "increasing spawn rate," but I do miss the thrill of patch day spawns..

Patch day spawns would virtually ensure every raid guild get's at least an attempt at at least one boss.

Yeah but what else do we do?

Announce "simulated patches" every two or three weeks a few days before they occur, repop every zone, lock the server until an estimated ETA (+/- 3 hours :p) then bring the server up and see what happens? Fun but way too much headache for the GMs, cries of favoritism, etc

However you want to do it you have to admit once a week is crummy and not classic. I think 5 days (with variance) or simulated patches are more than reasonable, given that:

a. servers were taken down a lot in classic
b. a lot more people on this server were in raiding guilds (whether top tier/bleeding edge or an expansion behind) compared to the general populace.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request especially since simulated patching is too much headache for the GMs. Every day or three days would be too much, obviously.

[Slugs]

I love this thread.

[guineapig]

we should instance them all, so all 6 guilds can kill all 6 raid mobs, everybody wins guys

yeah

Ah, contributing sarcasm I see. That's helpful.

[guineapig]

Yeah but what else do we do?

Announce "simulated patches" every two or three weeks a few days before they occur, repop every zone, lock the server until an estimated ETA (+/- 3 hours :p) then bring the server up and see what happens? Fun but way too much headache for the GMs, cries of favoritism, etc

However you want to do it you have to admit once a week is crummy and not classic. I think 5 days (with variance) or simulated patches are more than reasonable, given that:

a. servers were taken down a lot in classic
b. a lot more people on this server were in raiding guilds (whether top tier/bleeding edge or an expansion behind) compared to the general populace.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request especially since simulated patching is too much headache for the GMs. Every day or three days would be too much, obviously.

I don't think they would need to be announced. If all raid mobs are down they could simply have the chance to pop at once. Imagine the freak out when someone in guild announces "Vox is up", and thirty seconds somebody says "oh, shit, so it Draco!" The mad scramble to figure out what to hit by all the guilds would be epic! ;)

[jilena]

Normally I would take the Ayn Rand/crygirls can suck it approach with you Jilena. However, it is a server whose main goal is to promote nostalgia among old-school gamers, not to be a chode-measuring contest among job-seeking basement dwellers. 10 years ago, being the first to have a CoF was pretty awesome. Today only .000065% of the gaming population even gives a shit. So, it does tend to defeat the purpose when only 20 people get to enjoy the content that was SPECIFICALLY GENERATED for people to re-enjoy. Therefore, compromise, in this case, is necessary.

See to me a HUGE part of the whole EQ experience is the interractions within the community, the fighting over hunting grounds, the awesome drama it inspires. I mean really to get a classic experience altered to where friendliness between guilds fighting over content is enforced you may as well just play on live and enjoy the instanced content. EQ is the only game where direct competition over content was this intense. Everything else EQ offers some other game offers a similar or better experience. And here we all are 10 years later still looking to relive that. *Shrug*

[Zexa]

Weren't raid mobs repopping on server reset removed the same time spawn variance was put in on Live?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I don't think they would need to be announced. If all raid mobs are down they could simply have the chance to pop at once. Imagine the freak out when someone in guild announces "Vox is up", and thirty seconds somebody says "oh, shit, so it Draco!" The mad scramble to figure out what to hit by all the guilds would be epic! ;)

It would be pretty simple, really. Nagafen first (easier kill, takes less people) then Vox. Then head to hate and clear innorruuk (probably leaving maestro) then to fear where Draco has probably been nabbed by another guild, but there would be a massive clusterfuck over the first 2 golems (cuz of this server's 2 golems gets first shot @ CT rule, and CT being one of the easier raid bosses sans bladestorm...well...).

The order pretty much follows which has the most trash to clear and which are takable with lesser numbers. Much dickery would ensue, I assure you :P.

[Trimm]

I think simulated server restarts is an awesome idea. Rather than doing it on some 2-3 week schedule, why not just do it on the actual patch days? It'll still give the "big guilds" incentive to track the current spawn schedule and be competitive, but then give everyone a shot at the gods/dragons come a patch day. We'll have to be on our game on a patch day, because everyone here knows as well as I do IB will happily kill every single raid target if we (the other guilds) give them the chance.

To the Staff: Is this something you would consider? Are we just wasting time discussing an idea like this? I know during the Bloody Kithicor event all the mobs were spawned at once, is it as simple as a GM command, or did you have to go to each zone and re-pop them individually?

Perhaps we could try this once or twice, and if its a shit-tsunami of drama, kill it. Any feedback would be really appreciated.

[Finawin]

This simulated patch day stuff is one of the best ideas I've read on the forums.

[FrogKing]

This thread is more classic than the server.

[guineapig]

It would be pretty simple, really. Nagafen first (easier kill, takes less people) then Vox. Then head to hate and clear innorruuk (probably leaving maestro) then to fear where Draco has probably been nabbed by another guild, but there would be a massive clusterfuck over the first 2 golems (cuz of this server's 2 golems gets first shot @ CT rule, and CT being one of the easier raid bosses sans bladestorm...well...).

The order pretty much follows which has the most trash to clear and which are takable with lesser numbers. Much dickery would ensue, I assure you :P.

Possibly, but you are ignoring the length of time it takes to get to Vox. By the time your guild is all in SolB the other guilds would be on their way to the other targets. Even if you did make it to Vox before anyone else (which is doubtful if you picked Naggy first), the other raid targets would have been claimed. Best you could do is wait for a wipe.

[Pikle]

yeah, that's what I was thinking. In a situation like that unless your whole guild knew about it and no one else did, you might be able to down most of them. But this server is like a small town, we all know everyones business.

[Splorf22]

So the longer I stay on this server the more I am convinced that the current implementation of the raid scene is retarded. I absolutely understand why we have variance: no one wants a raid where everyone knows precisely what time a mob will spawn and is sitting there fully buffed. Said raid mob is promptly blasted into oblivion in 25 seconds and the GMs get to figure out who killed him. OH WAIT WE STILL HAVE THAT. Let me recap what happened last night from my point of view (I'm an enchanter in Vesica).

#1 Venril Sathir: I was XP'ing on my warrior when VS pop was announced in guild chat. Finished killing my mob (60 seconds), logged into my enchanter who was camped at the entrance to KC, and VS was already dead because TMO had a bunch of people either sitting there or camped out in his prep room. We had a group of people camping the basement with Yendor scanning track like a madman, by the time they got to VS prep he was at 80%.

#2 Faydedar: Similar sequence, except we got to have 100+ people on the boat to Timorous, which was actually pretty funny. Depending on who you ask, either TMO was kiting it or had FTE, either way IB/VD got the kill in a general clusterfuck.

#3 Innoruuk: Similar sequence. Logged in and got a port to Hate where 3 seconds after entering the zone I was grav fluxed by Innoruuk who had been pulled there by IB, and about all I did was cast resist magic on our wizard who got some nukes in.

Look I want to compete for boss mobs as much as the next guy. If IB/TMO were wiped off the server, I would probably quit too because doing the Kunark content simply isn't that hard right now. What makes it fun is trying to get there before the other guy. The problem right now is that that competition takes the form of sitting at the spawn point for hours at a time.

I've proposed this idea before, but a 1000% better solution is to spawn all the raid mobs (including the epic mobs) at the same time. Collect all the 7 day mobs and put them on 1 timer with no variance, and all the 3 day mobs and put them on another. Results:

Casual guilds like BDA/Divinity/Taken actually get some mobs because IB/VD/TMO can't be everywhere.

Way less bitching and raid interference and kiting and such because there is a good chance the top guilds go after different mobs. It would be worse at the end when only a few targets would be left, but hardly worse than it is now.

No poopsocking - we can all clean our socks!

Actual skill-based competition! ZOMG! Success is determined by picking targets, splitting forces, killing quickly, and not wiping rather than by sitting in a room alt-tabbed out watching movies for 96 hours.

Tons of fun: The server population would probably hit 1000 for 8 hours or so as everyone races around trying to kill 20+ bosses.

I really don't see any downsides to this. I'm guessing that the distribution of loot would remain pretty similar.

[Lazortag]

There's nothing meritocratic about the raid scene as it is. It doesn't take any extra skill or preparation, just the ability to camp your character in a certain spot. The way the kills are spread out actually makes it easier for big guilds to monopolize content. I have few a similar stories about VS. A while ago when I played more on this server I was tracking VS for div. No one asked me to, I just decided it might be a good idea since we'd killed VS the week before and we knew when his window started. When I got to KC, about 30 people from a certain "big guild" were all in the zone near VS's room. I probably stayed in the zone for over 8 hours straight and their numbers never dipped below 30. I went to sleep, logged back in after waking up and they were STILL there. Are you going to tell me that takes more skill?

The variance was put in so that GM's would have to deal with FTE disputes less, but actually now that the spawns don't happen all at once, you get more FTE disputes every week. If Bosses #1, 2, and 3 spawn on monday, tuesday, and wednesday, respectively, then you have a maximum of three FTE claims that need to be sorted out. But if they all spawn at once, not every boss can have this problem. This is proven correct by the fact that when server repops (rarely) happen, you see a lot less FTE disputes happening (you also (used to?) see smaller guilds getting more targets. What a shock. Maybe they aren't such "newbs" after all). Now stretch this to over ten raid mobs (naggy, vox, CT, inny, the djinn's in sky, VS, talendor, gore, sev, trak, faydedar, master yael, etc.) all happening within a small time period, and see how often you're going to have guilds disputing FTE claims.

I'm not sure the variance should be removed entirely, but it should definitely be reduced. Pretty much everyone wants it reduced at least a bit. Having to wait 96 hours for the CHANCE at a raid boss is completely unreasonable. It's also not classic.

[Nagash]

Although not classic that is a good idea. I would leave the variance in though. Why? Simply because once a target is killed at a certain time, you're almost guaranteed to get this taget locked for the people in that time zone and basically screw everyone who isn't. I.e. if a European guild kills VS, that means f... off for everyone who doesn't play on euro time (aussies, US, etc) and likewise the other way round.

Edited for clarification: The boss should all pop at the same time, said timer having a variance attached to it. For example, if the timer is 72h +/- 6h, the bosses would pop between 66h and 78h but all at the same time.

[Ele]

#1 Venril Sathir: I was XP'ing on my warrior when VS pop was announced in guild chat. Finished killing my mob (60 seconds), logged into my enchanter who was camped at the entrance to KC, and VS was already dead because TMO had a bunch of people either sitting there or camped out in his prep room. We had a group of people camping the basement with Yendor scanning track like a madman, by the time they got to VS prep he was at 80%.

VS was pure mobilization. We had maybe 2-3 people camped in pit from the night before when they logged in to respond.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I'm not convinced.

Not a huge raider in eq.. actually never done it... but i don't see why camping raid targets should be changed because you dont want to actually spend the time to camp them.


It's simple imo.. if a group of people wants a raid target.. they log on in force and go to a spawn point and wait. Camping is always time consuming but if you really want the gear its worth it.

P99 actually seems to have a nice enforcement of camps thing going... but like i said i haven't raided yet.. idk how well they enforce raid camps or w/e.


Would be lame if one afk ranger could claim a "camp" while a group of people were there waiting for a monster.

[Raavak]

VS was already dead because TMO had a bunch of people either sitting there or camped out in his prep room. We had a group of people camping the basement with Yendor scanning track like a madman, by the time they got to VS prep he was at 80%.

Depending who you ask TMO either knew exactly when he was going to pop, or had 60 people camped out in the pit at character select ready to go in seconds though only about 35 got on in time, or Zeelot forced a spawn with a server hack.

Truth is we were all returning from an epic quest fight to camp in KC when he spawned. I like the rumors though.

[Autotune]

Although not classic that is a good idea. I would leave the variance in though. Why? Simply because once a target is killed at a certain time, you're almost guaranteed to get this taget locked for the people in that time zone and basically screw everyone who isn't. I.e. if a European guild kills VS, that means f... off for everyone who doesn't play on euro time (aussies, US, etc) and likewise the other way round.

I'm pretty sure anyone can kill any thing regardless of what time it is on the other side of the world.

[Lazortag]

Although not classic that is a good idea. I would leave the variance in though. Why? Simply because once a target is killed at a certain time, you're almost guaranteed to get this taget locked for the people in that time zone and basically screw everyone who isn't. I.e. if a European guild kills VS, that means f... off for everyone who doesn't play on euro time (aussies, US, etc) and likewise the other way round.

So then just make the variance smaller. The windows don't need to be more than 24 hours long for people in different time zones to benefit equally.

[Aunt Bedelia]

I'm not convinced.

Not a huge raider in eq.. actually never done it... but i don't see why camping raid targets should be changed because you dont want to actually spend the time to camp them.


It's simple imo.. if a group of people wants a raid target.. they log on in force and go to a spawn point and wait. Camping is always time consuming but if you really want the gear its worth it.

P99 actually seems to have a nice enforcement of camps thing going... but like i said i haven't raided yet.. idk how well they enforce raid camps or w/e.


Would be lame if one afk ranger could claim a "camp" while a group of people were there waiting for a monster.

Looks like you know what you're talking about.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I think the guy is looking for something like eq2 had.. where everything is instanced... just show up and click start.

[Autotune]

I'm not convinced.

Not a huge raider in eq.. actually never done it... but i don't see why camping raid targets should be changed because you dont want to actually spend the time to camp them.


It's simple imo.. if a group of people wants a raid target.. they log on in force and go to a spawn point and wait. Camping is always time consuming but if you really want the gear its worth it.

P99 actually seems to have a nice enforcement of camps thing going... but like i said i haven't raided yet.. idk how well they enforce raid camps or w/e.


Would be lame if one afk ranger could claim a "camp" while a group of people were there waiting for a monster.

the majority of the people that play on P99 are raiding in the top 3 guilds. These same people are forced to camp characters, can't really start alts and do groups and if they do, they might have to /q out the group because some random pop'd early in window. On any given week there is, at best, a 1-2day opening where either nothing or only 1 thing is in window.

Taking away the variance on raid mobs does more good than just for the raiding scene. More groups will happen at all levels, making the server population rise.

Making all the targets spawn at once = someone gets slightly bested on mobilization and immediately goes for the next best target. Instead of a race to FTE, it's a race to see who gets more. It happens every time. (obviously VP could be left out of this, or added I don't care)

The only thing it would do is stretch out the population and people would be able to play the game again who are raiding. It would probably bring some people back too, but who knows. Not to mention that bda/taken/div would probably be able to get in on targets as well.

[Skope]

The main problem is, the majority of the people that play on P99 are raiding in the top 3 guilds.

That in itself is a huge problem and the windows have always played a huge role in that. It's also why the turnover rate for raiding guilds is so massive. Either you get targets regularly or you don't get them at all. People get bored in each of those scenarios. Those that have jobs and social lives can't compete with those that don't and it's been this way for a long while now

Frankly, you guys could complain bitch and moan all you want, the GMs don't care. It's been tried with a healthy server population where there were far more people playing and more scattered between guilds. Now you've got slipping numbers (people will walk away, epics won't make them come back permanently), velious a long long ways away and still the same shit.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Looks like you know what you're talking about.

Nice way to have an opinion.

You don't have to have a professional degree in mmo's to have an opinion.

[Splorf22]

Look I don't want to get into some sort "TMO is a bunch of no-talent poopsockers" flamewar. IB and VD were doing the same thing last night. I'm just saying the more time I spend on this server, the more I realize this is a retarded way to compete for raid mobs.

[Flunklesnarkin]

the majority of the people that play on P99 are raiding in the top 3 guilds. These same people are forced to camp characters, can't really start alts and do groups and if they do, they might have to /q out the group because some random pop'd early in window. On any given week there is, at best, a 1-2day opening where either nothing or only 1 thing is in window.

Taking away the variance on raid mobs does more good than just for the raiding scene. More groups will happen at all levels, making the server population rise.

Making all the targets spawn at once = someone gets slightly bested on mobilization and immediately goes for the next best target. Instead of a race to FTE, it's a race to see who gets more. It happens every time. (obviously VP could be left out of this, or added I don't care)

The only thing it would do is stretch out the population and people would be able to play the game again who are raiding. It would probably bring some people back too, but who knows. Not to mention that bda/taken/div would probably be able to get in on targets as well.


I understand that.. and their choice is to camp world spawns instead of leveling alts or anything else.


and to play devil's advocate here... lets say all the monsters did spawn at the same time... when would the time be set for the spawn...

i can imagine epic Q.Qlery from people about which time zone it should be on.

[Skope]

Look I don't want to get into some sort "TMO is a bunch of no-talent poopsockers" flamewar. IB and VD were doing the same thing last night. I'm just saying the more time I spend on this server, the more I realize this is a retarded way to compete for raid mobs.

Quit. It's not changing. Catching 365 people cheating via SEQ/MQ, many of them in raiding guilds, and still not addressing the incentive for people to cheat should make you think that maybe it's a bit fruitless, no? People used SEQ to track. It alerts you when the target spawns in the zone and it wakes you up with an alarm and it was being done for years. Who the hell wants to track for 4 days? In classic these mobs were on 2-day windows max, most of them even less.

[Autotune]

That in itself is a huge problem and the windows have always played a huge role in that. It's also why the turnover rate for raiding guilds is so massive. Either you get targets regularly or you don't get them at all. People get bored in each of those scenarios. Those that have jobs and social lives can't compete with those that don't and it's been this way for a long while now

Frankly, you guys could complain bitch and moan all you want, the GMs don't care. It's been tried with a healthy server population where there were far more people playing and more scattered between guilds. Now you've got slipping numbers (people will walk away, epics won't make them come back permanently), velious a long long ways away and still the same shit.

Yeah, just taking away the variance won't solve the raiding problem or any problem really. Taking it away and having multiple targets spawn at once would solve the GMs and our problem.

Frankly, I don't care if they do or not. I didn't start this thread, I hate to group, I usually only log in to raid or talk to a few people and there isn't much happening at lower levels to even care.

I was just suggesting something to help them and the server out. This way you won't see the server go from 400 people to 600+ whenever something spawns and then after it's dead 5mins-15mins later the server go back down to 400 or less. Instead of camping characters out and waiting for a call, people will be able to play their mains that raid, or start alts and have more low end groups going for the new people that play.

By now, I've done enough of this variance crap to know what to do, which is do nothing but sit in a spot and chat on a character, or log him out and play something else. I'd like to start an alt and play, but then i couldn't raid well with how p99 has set it up. Someone's grand idea is just a retarded fix that actually helps the top end and completely destroys any casual guild. Maybe that is the way They want it tho.

[Autotune]

I understand that.. and their choice is to camp world spawns instead of leveling alts or anything else.


and to play devil's advocate here... lets say all the monsters did spawn at the same time... when would the time be set for the spawn...

i can imagine epic Q.Qlery from people about which time zone it should be on.

You can't please everyone. I'm sure there is a time that could be selected by a public poll on p99 to get the majority of the people the time they want, or time frame.

If the votes are all high enough and spread out over a few hours, simple do a variance over those few hours, problem solved.

[Skope]

Autotune, they don't care. I'd love to think otherwise, but having both Nilbog and Rogean shit down Divinity's throat, my throat and the server's throat, you start to become nauseous after a while. It's cost the server a lot of players for years now and it's still here

[Nagash]

You can't please everyone. I'm sure there is a time that could be selected by a public poll on p99 to get the majority of the people the time they want, or time frame.

If the votes are all high enough and spread out over a few hours, simple do a variance over those few hours, problem solved.

Or you can make them all pop at once based on a timer that includes a variance. Problem solved and equity ensured for everyone.

[Splorf22]

I'm not convinced.

Not a huge raider in eq.. actually never done it... but i don't see why camping raid targets should be changed because you dont want to actually spend the time to camp them.


It's simple imo.. if a group of people wants a raid target.. they log on in force and go to a spawn point and wait. Camping is always time consuming but if you really want the gear its worth it.

P99 actually seems to have a nice enforcement of camps thing going... but like i said i haven't raided yet.. idk how well they enforce raid camps or w/e.


Would be lame if one afk ranger could claim a "camp" while a group of people were there waiting for a monster.

Flunkle, which do you really prefer:

Scenario A: Mobs have huge 4 day windows. At any given time, all the raid guilds have their mains camped out at KC/Ledge/whatever and trackers at the mobs in window. When the poor bored tracker finally announces a raid pop, they /q on their alts / abandon their friends/family / stop watching movies and log in. One or the other gets FTE as the other guilds are moving in their 30 people. Drama ensues.

Scenario B: All mobs pop at once. Everyone knows when the raid bonanza is going to start, so server population goes up to 800. Mobs pop, everyone goes crazy, if you lose FTE on one mob you immediately either go to the next one or pray the other guild wipes. IB/TMO/VD still get most of the targets due to having more people/being better organized, but with 15+ targets every week and 30+ on 3-day pop everyone gets something. The GMs know when they have to be on, and they only have to handle 1-2 disputes at the end when everyone gets down to the last few mobs. After "raid day" the server goes back to normal.

Does anyone in their right mind think A is better?

[Flunklesnarkin]

You can't please everyone. I'm sure there is a time that could be selected by a public poll on p99 to get the majority of the people the time they want, or time frame.

If the votes are all high enough and spread out over a few hours, simple do a variance over those few hours, problem solved.

the thing is i know a lot of people play from england and france also.. i've bumped into them.

Putting something on a timer for america's would essentially eliminate those folks from the raiding scene.

[Autotune]

Autotune, they don't care. I'd love to think otherwise, but having both Nilbog and Rogean shit down Divinity's throat, my throat and the server's throat, you start to become nauseous after a while. It's cost the server a lot of players for years now and it's still here

I'm well aware that neither really care about the population or what they want, but every now and then, some things do get changed. No harm in talking about it, worst that will happen is Rogean will show up and say "I'm always right, fuck you retards. Thread Locked".

[Autotune]

the thing is i know a lot of people play from england and france also.. i've bumped into them.

Putting something on a timer for america's would essentially eliminate those folks from the raiding scene.

I know a great deal of them myself, I raid along side them and against them. Speculating on if something will or will not is useless. Put it to a poll and find out what hours, have people comment on what time they voted for and why.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Flunkle, which do you really prefer:

Scenario A: Mobs have huge 4 day windows. At any given time, all the raid guilds have their mains camped out at KC/Ledge/whatever and trackers at the mobs in window. When the poor bored tracker finally announces a raid pop, they /q on their alts / abandon their friends/family / stop watching movies and log in. One or the other gets FTE as the other guilds are moving in their 30 people. Drama ensues.

Scenario B: All mobs pop at once. Everyone knows when the raid bonanza is going to start, so server population goes up to 800. Mobs pop, everyone goes crazy, if you lose FTE on one mob you immediately either go to the next one or pray the other guild wipes. IB/TMO/VD still get most of the targets due to having more people/being better organized, but with 15+ targets every week and 30+ on 3-day pop everyone gets something. The GMs know when they have to be on, and they only have to handle 1-2 disputes at the end when everyone gets down to the last few mobs. After "raid day" the server goes back to normal.

Does anyone in their right mind think A is better?


Call me crazy but i like the long camps.. it makes the reward more enjoyable to me.

Last mmo i played had a 6 month window monster.. it only spawned twice a year and not on a set timer.

Competition and camping makes the pixels valuable. If everybody could just click a zone instance and have the same gear it wouldn't be nearly as fun.


but either way.. i think there would be more drama caused with set spawns than the random spawns as it is. GM's would have every Q.Q raid /petition at once.

[Skope]

Wouldn't be the first time. But it is hopeless, make no mistake. Nilbog doesn't care and Rogean doesn't have a great track record for making brilliant decisions, of which I can personally attest to a few. Won't change but it doesn't matter anyway. Play for fun with people you like and it'll last a lot longer. If you don't find that it's fun anymore just call it quits. Hoping that one of them will wake up after 2 years (?) now is pretty hopeless

[Autotune]

Or you can make them all pop at once based on a timer that includes a variance. Problem solved and equity ensured for everyone.

that's what i meant, have all the targets pop at once on that variance over the few hours that reached the highest votes.

[Autotune]

Call me crazy but i like the long camps.. it makes the reward more enjoyable to me.

Last mmo i played had a 6 month window monster.. it only spawned twice a year and not on a set timer.

Competition and camping makes the pixels valuable. If everybody could just click a zone instance and have the same gear it wouldn't be nearly as fun.


but either way.. i think there would be more drama caused with set spawns than the random spawns as it is. GM's would have every Q.Q raid /petition at once.

there is not nearly as much drama on server resets with full spawns as there is normally waiting for things to come into window. Most of the time, there is no drama/qq/petitions due to raid interference.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I just feel that if there was a set time it remove the fun of camping...

It's like whats more fun.. the girl you always have to chase.. or the one you know you can call up and score at any time?

[Kassel]

Simulated patch days with full pop on a weekly basis removes 80% of this servers drama and is classic.

Edit - Maintenance = patch day =D

[Autotune]

I just feel that if there was a set time it remove the fun of camping...

It's like whats more fun.. the girl you always have to chase.. or the one you know you can call up and score at any time?

the fun of camping, you must be trollin.

[Autotune]

Simulated patch days with full pop on a weekly basis removes 80% of this servers drama and is classic.

Edit - Maintenance = patch day =D

it also gives me a few days to actually play the game when nothing is in window.

[Flunklesnarkin]

the fun of camping, you must be trollin.

naw... you just need to have a good group of people to enjoy the camping... make some nice conversation or w/e.

MMO endgame is basically an overglorified chat room where people get together every once in a while to kill stuff.. so yah.. the people you camp with makes a huge difference in your enjoyment.

[Nirgon]

Sit around baked out of your collective minds waiting for Trakanon to spawn.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Sit around baked out of your collective minds waiting for Trakanon to spawn.

Challenge accepted ;p

[Nagash]

It's like whats more fun.. the girl you always have to chase.. or the one you know you can call up and score at any time?

The 2nd one, pretty obvious. She's probably less maintenance as well...

[Szeth]

Yea I mean cmon... stop socking to get the girl... or have her come service you while you're socking.

No brainer.

[ownrage]

Simulated patch days with full pop on a weekly basis removes 80% of this servers drama and is classic.

Edit - Maintenance = patch day =D

qft

[Xanthias]

You were doing so well until this statement...

IB/TMO/VD still get most of the targets due to having more people/being better organized

It immediately made me think get more people and get more organized...

Anyway...
I understand the aggravation with variance, it sucks.
Having to sit someplace and just hit track absolutely blows.

Better chance get the variance canceled and convince the guilds to do a rotation and you might be on to something.

[Autotune]

You were doing so well until this statement...



It immediately made me think get more people and get more organized...

Anyway...
I understand the aggravation with variance, it sucks.
Having to sit someplace and just hit track absolutely blows.

Better chance get the variance canceled and convince the guilds to do a rotation and you might be on to something.

rotation on every target will never happen. Rogean doesn't like rotations, it ruins "competition". There are other people as well that don't want rotations in every guild.

However, I can almost say anything is better than the current setup now.

[Amelinda]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

[Szeth]

If we did a simultaneous re-pop would it be to simulate the patches from live? That is to say, would we still have mobs spawning at (variance or not) times depending on when they were killed? If so then there will be more dragon/god loot coming into the game.

I don't think that is a great idea for a server with slow expac release.

[Autotune]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

the chances of getting 150 people split between 3 guilds to all follow the rules, not try to bend the rules and play nice every 12~ hrs when they all go for 1 target = ???

The thing is, when there are multiple targets up, no guild wants to spend the time dealing with GMs to sort over a fte or god knows what else. WE always avoid the other guild like a plague on full repops. With Good reason imo.

The only thing the current setup with variance does, is keep the GMs involved on almost a regular basis, except when the GMs get tired of dealing with it. That is when people start lawyering rules more and start abusing the rules when they see nothing is being done.

[Skope]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

The only way you'll ever get complete compliance is through an enforced rotation. Many people don't want this, including the GMs, so you get the above scenario. Frankly, he really fucked it up by not getting rid of a lot of the troublemakers and instead giving them a timeout, i'd wager a lot of the assholes you've had to deal with are the same assholes who should've been gone a long time ago. Either take your hands off completely or be more strict when you do decide to come down with the hammer, this in between bullshit only furthers the issue.

Change it or live with it, Amelinda. Asking them to be level-headed is out of the question. What's never happened on this server is guilds being punished (and i do mean entire guilds) for the action of greedy members who don't mind giving the staff more work. There is no incentive to have them work together outside of VP (FFA), hence you've got your issues. I tried telling this to Uthgaard, who apparently got the idea but Rogean shot it down right quick: If you see people being assholes and one side not coming to an agreement because they're being unreasonable then kick them out and ban them from raiding for a couple weeks, or both sides not willing to settle it amongst themselves and be reasonable then delete the loot and ban em both. Like I said, either put your fist down or step back and actually not give a shit, pussy-footing around only furthers the dilemma

[Autotune]

If we did a simultaneous re-pop would it be to simulate the patches from live? That is to say, would we still have mobs spawning at (variance or not) times depending on when they were killed? If so then there will be more dragon/god loot coming into the game.

I don't think that is a great idea for a server with slow expac release.

It wasn't so much patches as it was regular maintenance. Having more loot will not cause a problem imo, especially if it ends up on the casual guilds. More people getting more targets = more loot distributed across more people. It wouldn't be more loot coming in the game per week than a live server at the same time line. Now it's usually less per week and it has been for quite awhile.

The only difference will be that this server has a low population, if the raiding scene wasn't so "fubar'd" the population would probably not be so dreadfully low. Seriously, who wants to spend hundreds of hours to get to endgame and do what the raiders on p99 do? 1 of 20? 1 of 50? 1 of 100+? Not very many.

[Splorf22]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

And I'd like to see candy fall from the sky on Tuesdays. Look I don't think people are good or bad. There are systems that encourage people to compete in good and bad ways. All I can say is I don't remember any drama at all on the last patch day. There isn't time for it cause you have to move on to the next mob :D Look I'm not saying this would be a perfect conflict free system. But you're nuts if you don't think things would get better.

If this were implemented, my guess is the first thing IB/TMO would agree to is leaving the VP dragons for last and splitting them. At that point there are still 4 major epic targets up, plus several dragons for scales. If TMO is in Fear trying for Cazic/Draco/Shissir, do you really think IB is going to get caught in that deathtouch cycle nonsense if Innoruuk is also up in Hate?

Worst case, GMs only have to deal with these petitions once per week en masse rather than every other day.

If you don't think this system is a win for everyone involved (including hopefully some new players) then you're nuts.

[Splorf22]

If we did a simultaneous re-pop would it be to simulate the patches from live? That is to say, would we still have mobs spawning at (variance or not) times depending on when they were killed? If so then there will be more dragon/god loot coming into the game.

I don't think that is a great idea for a server with slow expac release.

I'm not a fan of more loot. The stuff is supposed to be rare and, for lack of a better term, "leet". I would say eliminate the normal repops entirely and just have 1 "major" patch day with literally every timed mob respawning [dragons, maestro types, epic mobs] and 1 "minor" patch day [everything except 7 day spawns] per week. It's exactly the same stuff we had before, just all the raiding is concentrated into two 4-8 hour periods.

[Szeth]

I can't see even 50% of the population agreeing on a good time to pop all the mobs, let alone a good day/week.

Lot's of people have jobs, and as much as I love posting here on the forums FROM my job... I don't think they'd take kindly to me racing for mobs for 3-4 hours halfway through my work day.

[Splorf22]

I can't see even 50% of the population agreeing on a good time to pop all the mobs, let alone a good day/week.

Lot's of people have jobs, and as much as I love posting here on the forums FROM my job... I don't think they'd take kindly to me racing for mobs for 3-4 hours halfway through my work day.

There are plenty of ways to rotate it to give everyone an equal shot there [have patch day every 6 days 16 hours, or rotate it around on the weekends, or just cycle through 4 different times, or whatever]. The point is we need to get rid of these fucking shit-filled socks.

[Szeth]

I understand your point. Maybe I am a minority... but missing a mob, although it's sad (especially if your guild loses MAYBE YOU WERE THE BLUE BOX HERO WHO WOULD HAVE MADE THE DIFFERENCE), is not really the end of the world. You miss draco, but later that day or night you're there for CT and Inny, so you participated.

Now picture 6 days 16 hour respawn. I missed the respawn because (insert random made up RL obligation) now I have no incentive to play this server for 6 days 16 hours. Not only did I miss ALL the mobs for this week, I have no reason to idle around, or go camp, or to track mobs even, because that isn't happening.

So now you only need to be busy for 20 hours/month and you could potentially miss everything. Whereas now, if you're available by batphone it's HIGHLY unlikely you won't make it to at least a few mobs (if you care even a little bit).

That may be incoherent.

[Autotune]

I can't see even 50% of the population agreeing on a good time to pop all the mobs, let alone a good day/week.

Lot's of people have jobs, and as much as I love posting here on the forums FROM my job... I don't think they'd take kindly to me racing for mobs for 3-4 hours halfway through my work day.

It's not agreeing to a certain time. It's about getting a time frame that suits the majority. Some people will not like it, but I'd bet the majority of the people could find a time frame that suits them the majority of the time.

6pm EST might be an awesome time for someone in est, but such balls for someone on PST 12pm EST might be a better time for someone on PST.

Variance it from 6pm - 2am EST where all the mobs respawn at once. Some weeks will be better for others. Everyone will got shots at raid targets.

The problem is people want things to work around them, not work for everyone. I'd hate to wake up at 2am est to kill shit, but i'm sure some people around the globe wouldn't mind.

[Szeth]

I could get down with that 6pm - 2am thing... But I would say when the FIRST mob spawns, they don't all spawn. Maybe make the first mob random, and then have another mob pop every (5, 10, 15, 30 minutes)?

Very civil discussion going on in here so far.

[Skope]

Realistically a 12 hour window would suffice and having them all pop at the same time within that 12 hour window requires at least some tracking (or SEQ if that's your thing. don't worry, they don't care if you do) and means guilds prioritize targets. if forced to come to agreements by the GMs, say sitting on the same mob, then you'd also have less need to babysit. 3-day mobs still on 3-day timers with classic variance. it's all been suggested before

[Orruar]

Now picture 6 days 16 hour respawn. I missed the respawn because (insert random made up RL obligation) now I have no incentive to play this server for 6 days 16 hours. Not only did I miss ALL the mobs for this week, I have no reason to idle around, or go camp, or to track mobs even, because that isn't happening.


If the only reason you play this game is to zerg around with 40-50 people killing stuff that can be done by 12-18... yeah, I don't even want to finish that sentence because you already see how pathetic it is.

[Szeth]

Ok, you took my example to the extreme I guess. My point is, do you think there are more active high level players LOGGED IN during mob windows? Or do you think that the mobs in window/available to be killed have no meaning on server population?

[Skope]

Ok, you took my example to the extreme I guess. My point is, do you think there are more active high level players LOGGED IN during mob windows? Or do you think that the mobs in window/available to be killed have no meaning on server population?

That doesn't matter and neither does your specific situation. It's about having a healthier server pop and how to get there and not mob windows and how the game is currently played; that's the exact type of thing to be avoided. Having the TMOs and IBs only logged in during that once-a-week thing doesn't matter if it brings more people who will be logged in more often during the week outside of those 2 guilds for other stuff they need done(leveling, 3-day spawns, PoSky, etc), and that can be achieved by having a once-a-week timer. Take yourself out of the equation. What's it hurt? heading downhill anyway

[Szeth]

Welp we made it pretty far before we hit sockers vs non sockers. over and out

[Jarayador]

Or do you think that the mobs in window/available to be killed have no meaning on server population?

This should be pretty easily verifiable either way. Who wants to start taking notes?

[Splorf22]

Well I prefer no variance at all so that people can plan their schedules a bit "sorry honey, I can't spend time with your mom tomorrow cause i'm going to spend 8 hours killing pixellated dragons!". I don't think any one time will be fair or accepted for our global base either, so that's why I'd prefer to have a set of times that we rotate through, for example if we did 1PM Wednesday, 6PM Friday, 10AM Saturday, and 11PM Sunday and rotated through them I don't think anyone would have cause for complaint except maybe the Aussies.

Now if your only goal here is to spend a lot of time logged on waiting for boss mobs, than obviously this system is bad for you. But in the mean time you can play an alt, or help people with their epic gruntwork, or just go outside and see some sunlight.

But I think there is a very nice dual effect here: on raid days we have more people, and on other days we have more "real" players too, who are actually doing something and not just sitting there logged on for a spawn.

[Fountree]

"personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers." -Amelinda

I would be in support this OP's idea for the most part...BUT

Can't we all get along and follow the rules? An attitude change on everyones part would benefit us all greatly. On that note, the more sleaziness and disrespect there is, the more it breeds.

[Slave]

From the six pages I read, I'm definitely falling on the side of removing the variance and having "patch day" type free-for-all spawns with guilds needing to prioritize kills.

You will be able to tell how powerful a guild is by what mob(s) they get. Some will move up or down the mob ladder depending on their skills and performances... sounds pretty awesome, and that there'd be more room for smaller guilds.

[Writ3r]

Yeah, i don't see how variance has helped but rather only made things worse.... look at how many GM's get "over worked" or "mega stressed" due to idiocy with it in.

[Jarayador]

I don't think any one time will be fair or accepted for our global base either, so that's why I'd prefer to have a set of times that we rotate through, for example if we did 1PM Wednesday, 6PM Friday, 10AM Saturday, and 11PM Sunday and rotated through them I don't think anyone would have cause for complaint except maybe the Aussies.

Probably a better way to do this is to keep the respawn time offset from a multiple of 24 by a non-factor of 24. Say, 6 days 17 hours (7-hour offset) instead of 6 days 16 hours (8-hour offset). That way, the spawn time or window will gradually move through all the time zones; how fast that happens depends on how big the offset is.

[Autotune]

Well I prefer no variance at all so that people can plan their schedules a bit "sorry honey, I can't spend time with your mom tomorrow cause i'm going to spend 8 hours killing pixellated dragons!". I don't think any one time will be fair or accepted for our global base either, so that's why I'd prefer to have a set of times that we rotate through, for example if we did 1PM Wednesday, 6PM Friday, 10AM Saturday, and 11PM Sunday and rotated through them I don't think anyone would have cause for complaint except maybe the Aussies.

Now if your only goal here is to spend a lot of time logged on waiting for boss mobs, than obviously this system is bad for you. But in the mean time you can play an alt, or help people with their epic gruntwork, or just go outside and see some sunlight.

But I think there is a very nice dual effect here: on raid days we have more people, and on other days we have more "real" players too, who are actually doing something and not just sitting there logged on for a spawn.

If you can't plan your weekly schedule around 8hrs once a week, then that is your problem. Not everyone is going to make every raid. It's just the way it is. You're thinking of a 1 time situation as to why something isn't going to work every week.

8hr window once a week that stretches across decent times for all time zones should work, if not i know a 12hr window will. To me an 8hr window would/could cover everyone's timezone to some extent while also keeping the window short enough for it to not be a problem for most.

[tekniq]

WIPE IT CLEAN!

[tekniq]

If you can't plan your weekly schedule around 8hrs once a week, then that is your problem. Not everyone is going to make every raid. It's just the way it is. You're thinking of a 1 time situation as to why something isn't going to work every week.

8hr window once a week that stretches across decent times for all time zones should work, if not i know a 12hr window will. To me an 8hr window would/could cover everyone's timezone to some extent while also keeping the window short enough for it to not be a problem for most.

In theory this idea should work, but your suggested theory somewhat came into fruition yesterday and caused the same problems the OP posted about. Inny, Fay, VS all popped within what a 5 hour window and the socking and chaos still continued.

There really isn't one way to fix the problem. No matter what happens, there will always be someone bitching about blah blah. The once a week pop does sound enticing as well as encourages the tier 2 guilds to compete, but like previous posters opined, how will this work for other time zones, what else will people be doing 6-7 days of the week? I'm guessing 2/3 of the population work full-time jobs. 8 hours coupled with atleast 6 hours of sleep, you don't have much of a window to hit targets unless you wake up from bed. This proposed theory could possible work on like a Saturday/Sunday, when there is less RL shit to do and more free time to play some EQ

Personally, I just don't see the GMs doing anything about it because there have been countless pages about this topic and they have been pretty stern on their decision.

[Autotune]

In theory this idea should work, but your suggested theory somewhat came into fruition yesterday and caused the same problems the OP posted about. Inny, Fay, VS all popped within what a 5 hour window and the socking and chaos still continued.

There really isn't one way to fix the problem. No matter what happens, there will always be someone bitching about blah blah. The once a week pop does sound enticing as well as encourages the tier 2 guilds to compete, but like previous posters opined, how will this work for other time zones, what else will people be doing 6-7 days of the week? I'm guessing 2/3 of the population work full-time jobs. 8 hours coupled with atleast 6 hours of sleep, you don't have much of a window to hit targets unless you wake up from bed. This proposed theory could possible work on like a Saturday/Sunday, when there is less RL shit to do and more free time to play some EQ

Personally, I just don't see the GMs doing anything about it because there have been countless pages about this topic and they have been pretty stern on their decision.

inny, vs, fay all popped at different times, imagine if they had all popped at the same time and TMO hit VS first, what do you think IB and VD would have done?

Now imagine over an 8hr window there is a chance for all targets to spawn at once. Having them pop at the same time eliminates guilds trying to fight each other for one mob (at least till the last few). Having them pop 1 by 1 encourages guilds to fight over it.

[Lazortag]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.
...
in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

This isn't a very elegant solution because it's not something you can change. You can't make a rule against rules lawyering or being a sore loser, or wave a magic wand that makes people stop being dickheads. What you can change is the system which exacerbates all of these conflicts in the first place. I already showed in my first post in this thread how FTE disputes don't happen as often when the spawns are less spread out (I think this is just empirically true - whenever there's full server repops (which is almost never for some reason I can't fathom), there seems to be less drama over kiting/who got FTE/etc.).

I really think the best thing to do is just significantly reduce the variance. People from Europe can get raid mobs just as easily with a 12 or 24 hour window than with a 96 hour window. Making all raid mobs pop at once would be fun and all, but it would be kind of silly that anyone could just track VS for example and therefore know automatically that every other mob has popped. You should have to track the specific mob that you're going after (except in cases of server repops where it's expected that every mob is up. These were classic and they used to happen, how come we never have them anymore?)

[Zigfreed]

My solution? Remove all raid mobs everytime there is an issue with one of them. Perma ban the 18 or so titanic douchebags who create the vast majority of the problems.
If things are still cesspooling, turn it all off for 48 hours and wipe it clean of self important types who treat your sandbox as their catbox.

Btw, never make me king.

[Lazortag]

My solution? Remove all raid mobs everytime there is an issue with one of them. Perma ban the 18 or so titanic douchebags who create the vast majority of the problems.
If things are still cesspooling, turn it all off for 48 hours and wipe it clean of self important types who treat your sandbox as their catbox.

Btw, never make me king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MduM0SCXlqM#t=1m04s

[Gwence]

amelinda lol

if magically people start getting along here I hope it's well documented, because that kind of drastic swing has some serious political implications for the entire planet.


aka conflict and strife is human nature, cure it here, it can potentially be cured everywhere.



funny thing is it probably wouldn't take all that much effort (same with RL)



Faster content release is the easiest way to fix problems like this with non-instanced content that has all be done before. It allows for quicker segregation of guilds. It won't happen here, but it would fix the issues.

[bluejam]

Skipped a few pages.

Patchday repops are the most fun raids I've had on this server by far. The variance system involves a good bit of luck at this point. None of the guilds can cover all targets at all time. Right now there are 6-8 (don't have the exact number in my mind atm) encounters in window. Noone wants to sit there and cover for 72-96h. So a) you have to decide which target is more valuable to your guild and prep accordingly and b) you have to track as much of the window as possible. It's obvious that shit slips through the cracks. Look at the last Draco pop for instance. IB couldn't track more than 3 or 4 targets simultaneously and I think we didn't even spot check Fear. We noticed a TMO spike in the early morning, figured it was most likely Draco, checked Fear.. confirmed. By the time we had a force about to zone in, it had already been pulled. Draw of the luck (not taunting TMO mobilization in case some overly sensitive ppl jump in).

@Stealing: I haven't read all of your posts in this thread yet, but I agree with the first couple of. Sometimes this kind of raiding is annoying, but at one point you can just say fuck it and skip certain raid targets. Also some agreements were very well overdue and I think the guilds involved and the server pop itself as benefited from it - pooping Trak ledge every single time was fucking retarded, as was the VP clusterfuck although I was mainly staring at my login screen during that.
I can't tell you how much *fun* playtime I've gained simply by not having to precamp in Seb every couple of days, it's ridiculous!
Note: I do hope we can renegotiate the agreement come Feb, cus I don't think anyone in IB wants to go back to that shit - though one very mad TMO member made it very clear that he "can't wait until the agreement is lifted" which in return made me facepalm pretty hard (again, no snap at TMO in general, I think the leadership as more brain matter than this guy).

@Variance: Cut it down by 25%.

[Autotune]

I for one, am never going back to socking trak's lair.

[Splorf22]

This isn't a very elegant solution because it's not something you can change. You can't make a rule against rules lawyering or being a sore loser, or wave a magic wand that makes people stop being dickheads. What you can change is the system which exacerbates all of these conflicts in the first place. I already showed in my first post in this thread how FTE disputes don't happen as often when the spawns are less spread out (I think this is just empirically true - whenever there's full server repops (which is almost never for some reason I can't fathom), there seems to be less drama over kiting/who got FTE/etc.).

I really think the best thing to do is just significantly reduce the variance. People from Europe can get raid mobs just as easily with a 12 or 24 hour window than with a 96 hour window. Making all raid mobs pop at once would be fun and all, but it would be kind of silly that anyone could just track VS for example and therefore know automatically that every other mob has popped. You should have to track the specific mob that you're going after (except in cases of server repops where it's expected that every mob is up. These were classic and they used to happen, how come we never have them anymore?)

Giegue you are missing the whole point of this thread. If you reduce the variance, you'll make poopsocking worse, not better. If Venril only spawns in a 12 hour window, you can bet your ass IB/TMO and probably some VD as well will be sitting in his room for those 12 hours. With no variance at all, the entire server would be sitting there with 200+ people in KC. Spawning the mobs together has a totally different and far superior set of effects.

[Splorf22]

Skipped a few pages.

Patchday repops are the most fun raids I've had on this server by far.

IMO the biggest reason to link the mobs. Cause when you get more kills on repop day, you know it was cause you're good, not because you sat at the spawn point longer.

[Kassel]

perhaps it would be best interest of each VD/IB/TMO member to request their guilds leadership consider adding more mobs the current rotation come Feb. I think we can all agree that the trak rotation has increased our enjoyment of the game. Sitting/camping at that rock every 3 days is no fun for anyone.

We have the groundwork in place to expand on a rotation that is already working. Lets not miss this opportunity.

[Autotune]

perhaps it would be best interest of each VD/IB/TMO member to request their guilds leadership consider adding more mobs the current rotation come Feb. I think we can all agree that the trak rotation has increased our enjoyment of the game. Sitting/camping at that rock every 3 days is no fun for anyone.

We have the groundwork in place to expand on a rotation that is already working. Lets not miss this opportunity.

Extending the rotation to include more mobs is doubtful to happen. I don't see IB agreeing to this either.

More likely to get the mob spawn cycles changed imo.

[Skope]

Extending the rotation to include more mobs is doubtful to happen. I don't see IB agreeing to this either.

More likely to get the mob spawn cycles changed imo.

And does nothing for the obnoxiously long and stupid variance nor the decreasing population.

Agreements to rotations occur regardless of how long windows are, all it takes is 2 groups who are capable of the same shindig to decide that it benefits both parties.

[Autotune]

And does nothing for the obnoxiously long and stupid variance nor the decreasing population.

Agreements to rotations occur regardless of how long windows are, all it takes is 2 groups who are capable of the same shindig to decide that it benefits both parties.

The problem with p99 and rotations is every guild is capable of doing all the content. There are no real secret strats to anything. All that is required is numbers, resists, time.

Start putting guilds on rotation and it won't last long until someone pulls a TR>IB.

[Skope]

The problem with p99 and rotations is every guild is capable of doing all the content. There are no real secret strats to anything. All that is required is numbers, resists, time.

Start putting guilds on rotation and it won't last long until someone pulls a TR>IB.

I know, Divinity broke a Trans/IB rotation long long ago. It doesn't address the real issues at hand, it's just one of those things where you go, "Aww, well that's nice."

[Edrick]

I wish we could just all get along. We're one big family here on Project 1999. I love you all.

[Rusl]

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[Rikimeru]

My solution? Remove all raid mobs everytime there is an issue with one of them. Perma ban the 18 or so titanic douchebags who create the vast majority of the problems.
If things are still cesspooling, turn it all off for 48 hours and wipe it clean of self important types who treat your sandbox as their catbox.

Btw, never make me king.

this ftw!!!

[cmdrrickhunter]

I know this is supposed to be a clone of the live servers, but anyone else thinking we need a more creative solution? Since we have 3 raiding guilds (and that's not going to change), maybe we should let them spawn a boss on command, but the ability to do so requires them to compete directly with the other guilds. I dunno, have them go steal the other guild's girlfriends' panties or something (or better yet, steal the other guild's panties... better stories will come from that one, including whose drawer they came from!)

I know, I should be more serious. But the mental image of stealing panties from some of the **ahem** louder posters on this thread is too priceless.

[Slippery]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hUyh_dqb7TA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


=)

[Splorf22]

Well we had about 6 pages of legitimate discussion before it turned into RnF lite - that's about 5.9 pages more than I expected :D

[Nizzarr]

theres no variance on red and you get to kill your competition. Forum drama is composed of who is more lucky than exploit and not so much about they blurred my dragon QQQQQQQQQQQ.

Dont miss the boat, apparently timeline is totally classic -- probably the last time it will ever be done that way in your life!

I also heard velious will get released on time on red!

didnt read OP/thread btw, seen it 100x before.

[Nedala]

1. Remove Variance
2. Make all raidmobs spawn simultaneously
3. Put them all on one Variance (so no timezone is preferred)
4. Serverwide announcement when the raidmobs respawn (not necessarily needed, but would remove the need of trackers)
5. profit ?

[Autotune]

theres no variance on red and you get to kill your competition. Forum drama is composed of who is more lucky than exploit and not so much about they blurred my dragon QQQQQQQQQQQ.

Dont miss the boat, apparently timeline is totally classic -- probably the last time it will ever be done that way in your life!

I also heard velious will get released on time on red!

didnt read OP/thread btw, seen it 100x before.

the problem with red, is all the damn reds.

[cmdrrickhunter]

the problem with red, is all the damn reds.
**chuckles** and yet, what I get from all 6 pages of this is. "the problem with blue, is all the damn blues!" :D

[Nizzarr]

their guild got d-d-d-d-d-deleted and their playing star wars now.

if you're talking about those `reds`.

[tsaC]

nizzarr - coined so many times on red99 you'd have thought his druid was an NPC

even you blues can appreciate that humor

[Nizzarr]

confirmed died less than 10 times both pve and pvp.

Cast aka illi, ran off the server after Lovely and I ousted him(with many pve death) of all his exp spot for a week.

confirmed mad and trolling every post I make.

[tsaC]

confirmed died less than 10 times both pve and pvp

Wheelchairs gon' wheelchair

http://i39.tinypic.com/2nasfut.png

http://i41.tinypic.com/2rmtv11.png

[Brokabb]

There's nothing meritocratic about the raid scene as it is. It doesn't take any extra skill or preparation, just the ability to camp your character in a certain spot. The way the kills are spread out actually makes it easier for big guilds to monopolize content. I have few a similar stories about VS. A while ago when I played more on this server I was tracking VS for div. No one asked me to, I just decided it might be a good idea since we'd killed VS the week before and we knew when his window started. When I got to KC, about 30 people from a certain "big guild" were all in the zone near VS's room. I probably stayed in the zone for over 8 hours straight and their numbers never dipped below 30. I went to sleep, logged back in after waking up and they were STILL there. Are you going to tell me that takes more skill?

The variance was put in so that GM's would have to deal with FTE disputes less, but actually now that the spawns don't happen all at once, you get more FTE disputes every week. If Bosses #1, 2, and 3 spawn on monday, tuesday, and wednesday, respectively, then you have a maximum of three FTE claims that need to be sorted out. But if they all spawn at once, not every boss can have this problem. This is proven correct by the fact that when server repops (rarely) happen, you see a lot less FTE disputes happening (you also (used to?) see smaller guilds getting more targets. What a shock. Maybe they aren't such "newbs" after all). Now stretch this to over ten raid mobs (naggy, vox, CT, inny, the djinn's in sky, VS, talendor, gore, sev, trak, faydedar, master yael, etc.) all happening within a small time period, and see how often you're going to have guilds disputing FTE claims.

I'm not sure the variance should be removed entirely, but it should definitely be reduced. Pretty much everyone wants it reduced at least a bit. Having to wait 96 hours for the CHANCE at a raid boss is completely unreasonable. It's also not classic.

this sounds absolutely terrible. how in the fuck you guys play on the blue server is beyond me. poopsocking and 300 people handholding killing one raid mob is so stupid, and you guys do it for every fucking encounter lmao. what an awful concept. BURN IT DOWN

[maahes]

Simulated patch days with full pop on a weekly basis removes 80% of this servers drama and is classic.

Edit - Maintenance = patch day =D


Indeed it does.

[Ruenaros]

Voting yes for simulated patch days.... and none of this "rolling repop" nonsense.

[Lanuven]

This patch contains new files. Please obtain the latest EQChanges V20 (http://www.project1999.org/files/eqchangesv20.zip) from the setup guide, or obtain the latest files via the EQEmu Launcher (http://www.moestaverne.com/eqemulauncher122.zip).

Code
[LIST]
Kanras: Disabled spawn variance. (Red)


Isnt this what they did on red?

[maahes]

Please correct me if I am wrong, as I know you all will.

But when a server restart happened, or if the server went down for what ever reason, didn't every(might not have been 100%) Raid encounter spawn again? I swear we had cleared NToV and 20 minutes later the server needed a reboot. Which prompted our guild leader to spam /gu get your asses back to NToV, we get another round. And I swear that happened more than once with AoW.

[Szeth]

yes

[sedrie.bellamie]

release Veliuos? Top guilds move on. More content for every? Kunark becomes only Cabilis, KC, and Seb ( oh, wait Kunark is already only these 3 zones).

I know this isnt the place, but after Velious the only thing i would like to see is the Plane of Knowledge that has access to other planes just for raids. Custom content raids would even been cool; a plane of fire that is p99 exclusive or what not.

[Naerron]

This is a serious question i am posing, not a flame. I am not claiming to have the answer, i am posing it as a question and am going to talk about it objectively and wouldnt mind answers that conform to that.

So...I think it is not a tough pill to swallow that TMO is the #1 guild on the server in terms of raid mobs killed each week. In fact the numbers are staggeringly high in their favor, likely 90% of all raid mobs are killed by TMO weekly, currently (well not with the suspension, don't be jack-asses). Their main advantage is one that is born out of a non classic implementation into our server (the variance), the advantage i am talking about tho is their ability to track and mobilize for raid targets. This is a guild who is steeped in resources, trackers at every spawn, even at times dedicated mages and coth teams or pull teams, members with multiple geared out lvl 60 toons camped at multiple spawns, even lvl 52's geared out specifically for naggy and vox that never move otherwise. However this advantage would significantly decline if eveyrone just knew when a mob was going to spawn.

Now think about the variance, some mobs, like most lately have seemed to go to the very end of their timers. THis causes less mobs to be killed over time than if it was it was just on their set spawn timer. Meaning w/ out the variance, we would likely be getting more raid mobs to kill overall.

Furthermore i would argue that set timers would also make rotations much more attractive, and as i talk about this i would like to undergrid it with term i want you think about while you read this next section, and that is "speculation". People who don't know how many raid mobs they'll get in their future have a very tight butt hole, this is a key symptom of speculation. But say if everyone knew there would be 30 raids mobs spawning each week. Which i think is about correct with all of VP. Splitting those up might come a little easier. Things like "hey all our warriors are actually epiced, we will trade you our masetro for your VS" could even happen. My point is, maybe taking out the speculation of making sure you get this mob or that mob, might also releave some of the tight butt hole stress.

Now it's time to consider the reason for the implementation in the first place. Vomitable ammounts of poop-socking. Look at my join date, 2009. I have been here a long while, me and your grandpa served in the poop socking trenches of permafrost and solb before pofear was even out. But the fact is, variance really didn't stop people from socking all that much. Now you might say "hey ASSHOLE, you don't see that much poop-socking now". THe fact is tho, over time any guild with the player base and detirmination of TMO has really all but quit (no offence). And the way TMO has most members with multiple 60's that are epiced and camped out at multiple raid mobs all ready to log in within 3 minutes of spawning, basically as fast as it takes to get unstuck fromt he bean bag chair they passed out in. really doesn't make it a fair fight. And i think that this mitigates the usefullness of this policy, really it was worked around and made it in all honesty easier for TMO to dominate the raid scene currently.

Another point that i imagine will come up, and the last i will adress, is the issue of competition. So for me, and for most people, the excitement of competeing for raid mobs against other guilds. While a lot of what i have writen before sounds like rotation propaganda and might take the fun out of raiding for some people, it was written objectively, i in fact like racing for mobs. But not knowing when a mob spawns and having trackers there and both guilds showing up at near the same time is not much different than just knowing the spawn times and both guilds showing up at the same time. I realize that reduces mobilzation factor which is a key element of sucess over some of the less organized guilds out there, but like i said, removing the variance levels the playing field. However i would also like you to consider the fact that is also why anon is around, i remember spawn timers on live being very safe gaurded information, people even kicked from the guild for giving them away. Know exactly the next mastero pop is nice to have if no one else knows. What i am saying, is there is still room for competition. Variance was added when there was 2 raid mobs in the entire world.

In closing i would leave you with this. Variances are a departure from classic, the reasons they were implemented have not gone away, and have in fact created a system that has made to be dominated by one guild and promotes a feverish volitile raid scene. So why keep them?


So that is really all i have. Please enlighten me with your deepest musing on this uber serious matter, but try to keep contextual guild drama out of the discussion. This also means, it doesn't matter if say an IB post who no longer raids, they did raid, have been through all of this shit, and this their opinion does have a validity here.

Also all that being said this is the list of the guilds i have raided with:
Transcendence, DA, TMO. All on my mage Casting. And yes i made a point to talk about the guild i am apart of in third person and mention my current guild at the end as i think it is important to realize the source.

[Supaskillz]

without variance everyone sits a raid on top of the mob, how does the gm resolve that? seems like a problem to me, unless its back to first guild with 15 on the spawn point get it which leads to retarded 2 day afk sessions.

[Galilao]

excellent post, all great points

[Frieza_Prexus]

With or without a variance, the guild with the most resources will win the race. This is because each mob is popping by itself. You can either have a massive amount of tracking or socking.

The most elegant solution is a FTE shout and simulated patches. Other guilds flourish when there's a server reset as even the #1 guild's resources can only reach so far.

Keep the variance, but allow a bi-weekly reset. Some can be announced, others can be random. Large amounts of simultaneously available targets dilute the power of any one guild.

[Tarathiel]

remove variance, add rotation; problem solved