Rapture/Dictate Immunity

[Splorf22]

I'm consolidating my old rapture immunity thread because most of the evidence was on the second page. I plan on bumping this thread for the next few years. We enchanters are already going to have to deal with enough BS in Velious without Sky being Velious Part I.

Currently there area number of mobs on P1999 (Korocust, Chottal, and basically everything in Sky) that are flagged immune to charm or mez (they cannot be dictated/raptured). I think that there is very little evidence that *anything* should be specifically immune to Dictate or Rapture at this point, except things that have an insanely high MR to begin with.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20011008.html

NPCs that were highly magic resistant in order to make them immune to certain spells can now be given specific immunity to those spells. This means that they can be made immune to critical spells, as intended, and still be generally less resistant to magic. Players will receive a message similar to the one that is already given for Mesmerization spells when they cast a spell on an NPC that it is specifically immune to.

http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2198

The reason for the PoH mixup is the timeline. PoH has had 3 incarnations. During PoH v1 (single floor hate) and begining of PoH v2 there was stuff that was basically immune to magic. This included the golems in Hate, Phinny's 2 (or 3) guards, Black Reavers in CoM. This included *immune to rapture*. You would get a flat out resist. In addition you simply could not land any spells on mobs that were 6 levels higher than yourself.

Enter the resist change. Gone were the MR immune mobs. The aforementioned mobs could now be mezzed with rapture. They were still very highly resistant to other MR based spells though. Also gone was the "6 levels" rule. This happened while Hate was in version 2. Therefore you will have som who swear you could mez golems, and some who swear that you couldn't...

Enter Hate revamp. Now Hate is v3. I havent played around there much, but it sounds like the spites are now flagged using the unmezzable flag.

Since the resist revamp, I have yet to get a resist on Rapture (not counting mez-immune flag).

Now I realize that is very hard to prove a negative empirically. However, for stuff that was known to be immune a simple google search pops up. For example 'rapture spite golem' or 'rapture drozlin' return results quickly, 'rapture korocust' and 'rapture chottal' don't. Mqemulator also doesn't think that these guys are mezzable.

http://mqemulator.net/npc.php?id=89144
http://mqemulator.net/npc.php?id=89001
http://mqemulator.net/npc.php?id=103219

Regarding Sky, I think most of these immunities are incorrect as well.

http://thornoohaha.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=38896&ForumID=180047&TabID=344682&Replies=5&TopicID=2080508

Post from 2006 of course but it does claim the Guardian should be mezzable (and I would think therefore dictateable). *Also found:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=70

claiming the Princess on #1 should be charmable.

And finally:

http://www.angelfire.com/freak/eqjonze/guides/planes/planeofsky1/planeofair.htm

Which indicates that most mobs in Sky should be mezzable.

[Splorf22]

bump for silly errors fixed

[Treats]

If the mob cannot be slowed, you probably cannot Dictate/Rapture it either.

If the mob was ever immune to stun (Giants in Velious/55+ mobs etc) you probably shouldn't be able to Rapture either. Rapture is just a 24 second stun. I don't know when this immunity was put in place though.

Specifically looking at Unslowable mobs back in the Classic/Kunark/Velious should tell you exactly what could and could not be Dicate/Raptured because the NPC's magic resistance was just so high.

[Splorf22]

If the mob was ever immune to stun (Giants in Velious/55+ mobs etc) you probably shouldn't be able to Rapture either. Rapture is just a 24 second stun. I don't know when this immunity was put in place though.

As I understand it 55+ mobs aren't stun immune, but rather all stun/mez spells that don't have explicit level caps are level capped at 55.

Specifically looking at Unslowable mobs back in the Classic/Kunark/Velious should tell you exactly what could and could not be Dicate/Raptured because the NPC's magic resistance was just so high.

That's actually a pretty good idea, and we have some good lists of this.

http://eqdiary.tripod.com/quests/slows.htm
http://eqdiary.tripod.com/quests/velious_slow.htm
http://eqdiary.tripod.com/quests/plane_slows.htm

For example Phinigel Autropos is slowable on this list, mezzable according to Alla http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=1852 and immune here AFAIK.

Considering the earlier post on the immunity revamp, I think there is a very good argument that basically either stuff should be straight up MR immune to everything or slowable/charmable/mezzable etc with the exceptions of Giants and Dragons who are racially stun immune. Most probably the code for spell resists was simply if(rand() < MR || (spell == stun && (race == giant || race == dragon)). There shouldn't be any mobs that are specifically immune to anything.

[Treats]

Might want to try and find something earlier, those lists are all after Planes of Power was released (Disease Slow).

As I understand it 55+ mobs aren't stun immune, but rather all stun/mez spells that don't have explicit level caps are level capped at 55.

Is 56 I guess (Not sure if this guys knows what hes talking about though, saying King is 56 and two up at once...maybe he is meaning Reavers):

A bard can't do CC in Juggs, they are all level 56 or higher, but then
again an enchanter can't mez 'em either. Enchanters have used dictate
every time I've done Juggs, but we generally are rushing through Juggs on
our way to get Trak dead and then do whatever was planned for the night.
King is also tough, since the King is level 56. I have seen one time when
there were two Kings up at once, and I wouldn't have been able to do the
CC there, without an off-tank. Other than that, I've successfully broken
and held King every time I've tried.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.games.everquest/wpelk0Y2dg4

Another:

Lullaby is pretty useful up until bards get Pixie Strike. At that point, they
should be learning to use Pixie Strike, since Lullaby becomes useless at 30 at
the very latest. Bards can CC almost as well as enchanter from 15-59. At 60
enchanters get dictate, and then they're useful on 56+ mobs, which bards can't
CC. On Norrath, the ONLY exp camps where a bard isn't able to CC is Juggs, and
not many folks consider that an exp camp.
With a slower or a feign puller, a group with a bard should be able to do any
dungeon, and any exp camp. Plus we add haste and mana regen, unlike those gimpy
necros. :)

Arolpin

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.games.everquest/r4ivfCLSUg4

I would guess that they added the stun immunity to certain things after the Furor fiasco with Whirl Till you Hurl. Certain mobs under 56 (body types/bosses/etc) were just no mez no stun and anything over 56 it would flat out resist.

It will be pretty difficult to find anyone Rapturing King/Jugg/Reet before the resist changes, I don't think it was possible.

[Splorf22]

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20011008.html

IMPORTANT NOTE: It is very important to note that we have not made any NPCs immune to spells that they were not already immune to. Many NPCs that were previously immune to spells due to their high innate resistance to magic have had that resistance reduced and specific immunities added. So if you see an immunity message after attempting to cast a spell on an NPC that you hadn't seen such a message from before, understand that the NPC was already immune to that spell before due to high resistances, and the only difference is that it now has lower resistances in general and specific spell immunity (which is why you are seeing the message).

So its not 100% clear from that the lists line up, but I think its a pretty reasonable approximation without specific evidence to the contrary. Just for kicks I looked up Sirran on mqemulator and at least they think he's still charmable, so that was never "fixed". But personally I would rather see Sirran be immune to charm (even if unclassically for balance reasons) and the rest of sky be charmable as it should be.

I think your bard guy might be a little confused. The date on that google groups thread is 3/2002 (early Shadows of Luclin) which is precisely the same time Xornn was working on his enchanter guide where he clearly states he could use Glamour of Kintaz to mez Juggernauts.

http://xornn.tripod.com/news.htm

Glamour of Kintaz - A new mez line that allows you to mez some targets that cannot be mezzed with Dazzle and before. Even when Dazzle will work, you may wish to used GoK instead; 275 whopping mana, 2.5 second casting time, and no recast delay. This nets you a 30 second mez effect, cast as though you're two levels higher (starting out as a 56 cast), and slightly less resistant than a 56 enchanter's Dazzle. While this is a huge mana investment to keep going, when there's a sebilite juggernaught pounding on your party, GoK is often the way to go. In places like Chardok there are mobs that can only be mezzed with GoK or it's father spell, Rapture. Much like the "switchover" tactic with AE Mezzing, you may find that GoK chased with Tashania and Root is a good tactic to spare your mana the brunt of this drain. Remember, for 100 more mana than Dazzle, you're getting 1/3 of the duration. Still this is a fantastic spell for stopping I high-powered mob from crushing your party. In situations where a resist means death, GoK is a good idea.

I've never heard of the Furor WTYH fiasco; that sounds hilarious. What happened?

[Splorf22]

You know I think part of my thing is that if the devs are going to insist on classic for all the annoying things like the map and the compass and such it only seems fair that we should get the classic things that are in our favor, like charm/mez in sky or no variance for that matter.

[Nlaar]

Whoa easy there L, stop making sense! That kind of talk isn't wanted in P1984.

[Splorf22]

^

Although Nilbog was on earlier and checking the bug forums so I suspect this is a hopeless quest.

[Splorf22]

Going to stop bumping this thread as I'm pretty sure both Kanras and Nilbog have read it at this point and are choosing to work on other things. Sometimes I get the feeling that classic changes to game mechanics that make life easier for players or enable Enchanters to charm on raids just aren't that high of a priority, and I suppose I can understand that point of view.


I have not looked at the changes. But that is how it was intended before. If the mob was tashed, malo'd, charm would often last the duration. The big issues, were the consequences when charm would break.

Charm should cause wipes on raids if used. Charm should be useable to solo. Charm should be dangerous in groups, but useable if you keep the mob snared, tashed, and malo'd.

I don't know how to fix the issue, with charm being a primary dps method on raids.

Maybe charmed mobs should run off randomly in wrong directions and bring back trains, if their master is not close enough?

There are so many things that could be explored.

[Raemius]

Going to stop bumping this thread as I'm pretty sure both Kanras and Nilbog have read it at this point and are choosing to work on other things. Sometimes I get the feeling that classic changes to game mechanics that make life easier for players or enable Enchanters to charm on raids just aren't that high of a priority, and I suppose I can understand that point of view.

I'll bump it, looks like a lot of good research has gone into this per the bug sub-forum rules. Would be nice to have an indication from devs, even if its a 'too busy right now'.

Lack of any form of response discourages the community from contributing to help make things classic.

[Splorf22]

I guess I too would like to see something from Nilbog on this, even if it's just 'meh, this is low priority and I'd rather work on Velious'.