Rogue offhand weps: high dmg or high ratio?

[godbox]

I think title is self explanatory. I heard conflicting things from people I asked in game so I will just phrase the question real quick and any feedback or debate would be welcome =)

since double attack doesn't go off every round does weapon speed (i.e. i high dmg ratio wep) really matter as much or is it better to go for something that when it lands you know it lands.

to further simplify it:
Seb croaking dirk vs green jade axe for offhand?

[canker]

ratio

[godbox]

can you explain the reasoning for that. like I said I got mixed messages some people said ratio, although i didnt understand why speed is as important in offhand and others said high dmg

[canker]

ratio doesn't necessarily mean speed. it means the highest number possible when dividing damage by delay.

it all comes down to averages. over time, the better ratio offhand will provide higher dps than the high damage one with a worse ratio.

[Tecmos Deception]

can you explain the reasoning for that. like I said I got mixed messages some people said ratio, although i didnt understand why speed is as important in offhand and others said high dmg

Some people think that offhands only have a chance to attack when the mainhand attacks. So those people try to use fast mainhands and high-damage offhands, thinking that they will get more chances for their offhand to hit hard.

They don't understand how dualwield works though. Dualwield causes your offhand to swing independently of your mainhand, whenever you have autoattack on. Because of this, the best ratio possible should be used in offhand so that you can get the best damage over time whenever dualwield does work (again, it works or doesn't work on it's own, based off the offhand weapon's delay) to cause offhand swings.

No damage bonus on offhand, so faster offhands don't do more damage just because they are fast. When you have the choice, as a rogue, I'd go with the slowest weapon possible that has the best ratio for your offhand. Faster weapons contribute to push, which generally annoys me because it makes me have to reposition for BS more often but can be nice when it interrupts spellcasters, but slower weapons cause you to take less damage from damage shields and when you are being faced by the mob they cause you to get riposted somewhat less also.


SCD has the best ratio in a droppable I believe, apart from edge of the nightwalker which is the same ratio with better stats but at 6-7x the price.

[webrunner5]

I think the Seb croaking dirk is too fast of a weapon for a Rogue. Draws too much agro. I like to stick with weapons that have around a 24 Delay just like the Epic has 25 delay. Fast enough but less agro. And yes, best ratio. But best ratio weapons work out as the most damage so they go hand and hand.

[godbox]

tecmos you said slowest possible with best ratio but then said scd which is crazy fast so was your opinion that scd>gja or the other way around.

[Tecmos Deception]

tecmos you said slowest possible with best ratio but then said scd which is crazy fast so was your opinion that scd>gja or the other way around.

The main priority imo is the ratio. What I meant was if you have 2 different weapons that are both .56 ratio for your offhand, but one has a higher delay... then use the higher delay.

SCD is a no-brainer over the axe for me, especially since even though people talk about faster being more aggro, I've never seen any real proof of this.

[godbox]

gotcha thanks a bunch

[Tecmos Deception]

And unless someone who says "faster = more aggro" has proof, just ignore them. I've never ever ever seen anyone offer any hard proof that doing damage with more frequent, smaller hits generates MORE aggro than less frequent, larger hits. It is a valid argument that lower delay tends to mean more even thread per time, but that's not the same thing.

[greatdane]

Always ratio. The thing is that slow 1h weapons tend to have better ratios than faster weapons of otherwise comparable quality, and are also a tiny bit more efficient if you have to move around during combat and can't be in melee range at all times.

[MaksimMazor]

Evade is your friend

________________
Gabobrik (Assassin)

[webrunner5]

And unless someone who says "faster = more aggro" has proof, just ignore them. I've never ever ever seen anyone offer any hard proof that doing damage with more frequent, smaller hits generates MORE aggro than less frequent, larger hits. It is a valid argument that lower delay tends to mean more even thread per time, but that's not the same thing.

So you are telling us that if I am a Warrior and I have a choise between a weapon with a delay of say 20 or one with a delay of 70 to try to KEEP agro it makes no difference?

[Tecmos Deception]

So you are telling us that if I am a Warrior and I have a choise between a weapon with a delay of say 20 or one with a delay of 70 to try to KEEP agro it makes no difference?

No.

[Cippofra]

So you are telling us that if I am a Warrior and I have a choise between a weapon with a delay of say 20 or one with a delay of 70 to try to KEEP agro it makes no difference?

More damage = more aggro. Only time when your scenario could possibly make sense is if you wanted aggro at the very beginning of the fight but didn't care about it later. Simple fact of the matter is, two equal warriors without procs, same stats and gear, the guy doing the most damage will keep the most aggro, every single time. As a monk if I ever had to tank and break mez in the process I would for a flying kick to come up. If it were feasible it could also make sense to temporarily equip a hard hitting 2hb to break it as well.

[Lanuven]

I think title is self explanatory. I heard conflicting things from people I asked in game so I will just phrase the question real quick and any feedback or debate would be welcome =)

since double attack doesn't go off every round does weapon speed (i.e. i high dmg ratio wep) really matter as much or is it better to go for something that when it lands you know it lands.

to further simplify it:
Seb croaking dirk vs green jade axe for offhand?

You make me sad Phatkid :(

[Lanuven]

More damage = more aggro. Only time when your scenario could possibly make sense is if you wanted aggro at the very beginning of the fight but didn't care about it later. Simple fact of the matter is, two equal warriors without procs, same stats and gear, the guy doing the most damage will keep the most aggro, every single time.

Not true always. They have skills to use to get agro without procs.

[Tecmos Deception]

So you are telling us that if I am a Warrior and I have a choise between a weapon with a delay of say 20 or one with a delay of 70 to try to KEEP agro it makes no difference?

No. I plainly said that faster does not mean more. I didn't say it wasn't different, and I didn't say ANYTHING about warriors at all... seeing as this is a thread about rogue offhands.

[Furniture]

And unless someone who says "faster = more aggro" has proof, just ignore them. I've never ever ever seen anyone offer any hard proof that doing damage with more frequent, smaller hits generates MORE aggro than less frequent, larger hits. It is a valid argument that lower delay tends to mean more even thread per time, but that's not the same thing.




Aggro is generated based on swings, regardless of hits or misses. This has always been the case both here and on live. Go read The Steel Warrior if you think I'm incorrect or that this server is not classic in that regard.

So with your example of two warriors doing the same amount of swings, even if one does more damage, they will have the same aggro. There is a *slight* biase for mobs towards their current target, so it will take more than +1 over the current top to take aggro from them (it is still a relatively small biase, and it is taken into consideration for taunt. It's only there to prevent a mob literally pulling 180's every swing between two players).

So yeah your wrong

[Tecmos Deception]

Nm. Was commenting on the rogean quote out of context.

[Tecmos Deception]

Nm.

[Vayder]

So yeah your wrong

It must suck to say someone's wrong only to find out you're wrong.

Rogean is saying that if two warriors have the same weapon and one does 200 damage and another 25 they'll generate the same amount of aggro because aggro isn't based on the damage you actually deal with your weapon but the "potential threat" your weapon has each swing.

Instead of cherry picking a quote you might want to read the context!

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah, reading farther into that thread I'm seeing the whole "aggro is based on the maximum potential damage... kind of" thing.

VERRY interesting.

[Lanuven]

Hence why even when you miss a backstab or double backstab, you have a chance at pulling agro. The potential for dmg to be done was there.

[Cippofra]

This whole theory is extremely clear watching two monks. One dual wielding and the other with a 2hb. The one doing the most damage will consistently hold aggro, regardless of weapon speed. The lack of aggro that a missed flying kick generates is also incredibly clear. So, regardless of what the forums say, I suggest taking actual practice into account. Fanatical speculation and assumptions are what causes absolutely off the wall theories like the offhand not having an independent delay. Check the facts for yourself.

[fadetree]

I have to say, I don't think the 'aggro is entirely based on swings' thing is correct. My experience is that if I have a 2hb that deals a whole ton of damage, and somebody is using 2 jade maces along with me, I will hold aggro, even thought they get MANY more swings than I do.

I suppose you could say that it's POTENTIAL damage, so the weapon ratio x swings per time period is the deciding factor, but I dunno. One way to test would be to have 2 players use the same weapon, same haste, one really bad at the weap skill and one good. If neither one can hold aggro lock, then its the weap ratio and swings. If the one with the good skill can lock down aggro, then its damage done. You'd have to overcome the 'current target' bias, so maybe something like let the poorly skilled player beat on it for a while, and then see if the well skilled player can eventually strip aggro. If they can't, its swings. If they can, its damage.

[godbox]

You make me sad Phatkid :(

why lanuven why?!?!

[webrunner5]

So yeah your wrong

Thanks. I rest my case.

[Dullah]

I'd really like to hear the conclusion to this matter. More swings doesn't necessarily mean more agro, but potential damage generates the threat?

Would be awesome if we could get dev confirmation on this.

[Tecmos Deception]

I'd really like to hear the conclusion to this matter. More swings doesn't necessarily mean more agro, but potential damage generates the threat?

Would be awesome if we could get dev confirmation on this.

Nm. I tried to explain the thread that Rogean was quoted from but I decided I can't. The quotes from TSW in that thread don't seem to agree with each other.

[Itap]

I would love to hear some dev confirmation on this. From what i see, "swings" (potential damage) do not really generate aggro as much as actual damage does. Example, when i first engage, double attack goes off for mainhand and offhand (quad), missing 2, and landing 2. Meanwhile, monk lands one flying kick and steals aggro. Now my swings combined outdamaged monks kick, but his 1 attack takes it. So harder hits generate more aggro, regardless of fast or slow swings?

Edit - It's funny, back when i played in 2000, this kind of discussion didn't exist nor did it matter lol. I remember playing a shadowknight and gearing for all INT, not knowing what AC was and its mitigation properties

[Tecmos Deception]

Flying kick may have extra aggro component, as a special attack?

[godbox]

when do rogues start double backstabing?

[Valiant]

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