Class/Race Rant

[ccs88]

After getting back into the game I'm kind of amazed how imbalanced the class/race combos are. Perhaps WoW ruined my MMO ideals, but I can't create a character anymore without thinking about numbers and end game use.

For example, why would anyone in their right mind play a human monk over an iksar?
Why are Barbarians even able to be rogues, and why are the arguably the best race for a rogue? They're not stealthy. They're a big loud race. Makes no sense! Why do rangers suck so bad, yet it's the class a lot of people want to play the most. The advantage ogres/troll have for warriors and shadowknights are ridiculous over other races. And more stuff. And more stuff.

I just needed to put this in writing somewhere. I'm not really too pissed and I'll still play.
I have to remind myself that EQ was about roleplaying more so than elitism to a point.

:o

[Adrieth]

From a min/max standpoint, sure.

Best thing I like about EQ: Barely anybody gives a shit about min/maxing. ;)

[Tarathiel]

its because of the "RPG" that follows MMORPG, unfortunately that part seems to be left out these days. any table top D&D player can tell you that races and classes were not always designed with balance in mind, and since eq was created by a bunch of dnd nerds i assume that mentality carried over. my most memorable d&d charaters were some of the more wacky class and race combo's. tbh i wish there werent any race or class restrictions in eq, how cool would it be to actually play a dark elf ranger???

[Teppler]

Dark elf necromancer ftw. Yeah that Iksar regen would of been pretty great at level 59 now but those scaled eyes oars just don't have dark elf style and that matters :D

[godbox]

some ppl dont wanna lvl twice as long for lvl 60 to have extra regen on a char (monk) that is only tankin with healers that keep them at full or dead. also dont forget human monk at 60 win on the dps with the (what i think is the best combo) fist/sos (or some VP crap i know nothin about)
Ikky regen adds to the solo ability of a monk yes but then you are grinding alot longer as well. I feel like only necro is ikky or die because it increases there mana to health to mana abilities. but for all else troll wars/sks/shams ikky monks its like what 270 hp heal every minute *shrug ya its that much less damage your takin and you might ocasionally avoid a death by the health u regened but thats alot of extra grindin for it.



i personally go for looks over all else except stun immunity is game changing.

[formallydickman]

Hide, faction, and lower XP rates fit well with my playstyle. Regen, stun immunity do not even play a factor for me.

[arcanebrain]

its because of the "RPG" that follows MMORPG, unfortunately that part seems to be left out these days. any table top D&D player can tell you that races and classes were not always designed with balance in mind, and since eq was created by a bunch of dnd nerds i assume that mentality carried over. my most memorable d&d charaters were some of the more wacky class and race combo's. tbh i wish there werent any race or class restrictions in eq, how cool would it be to actually play a dark elf ranger???

This is exactly it. That's one thing I love about EQ. Of course a Troll or an Ogre will be a much better warrior than, say, a Wood Elf. It's just logical! But sometimes the fun is in playing characters that go against the grain.

[Tecmos Deception]

After getting back into the game I'm kind of amazed how imbalanced the class/race combos are. Perhaps WoW ruined my MMO ideals, but I can't create a character anymore without thinking about numbers and end game use.

For example, why would anyone in their right mind play a human monk over an iksar?
Why are Barbarians even able to be rogues, and why are the arguably the best race for a rogue? They're not stealthy. They're a big loud race. Makes no sense! Why do rangers suck so bad, yet it's the class a lot of people want to play the most. The advantage ogres/troll have for warriors and shadowknights are ridiculous over other races. And more stuff. And more stuff.

I just needed to put this in writing somewhere. I'm not really too pissed and I'll still play.
I have to remind myself that EQ was about roleplaying more so than elitism to a point.

:o

Your rant is ill-founded, imo.

Human monks were the only option for a long time, and even now, appearance and faction considerations are more important for a LOT of people than the iksar regen and minor AC boost.

Where does EQ lore say that barbarians can't be sneaky?

Rangers are what they are because the developers of classic EQ created an imperfect game, and it took them a couple of years to getting around to fixing this particular issue.

And you talk about endgame while also being upset about the stat advantage of an ogre/troll tank in the same breath? In raid gear and with raid buffs, any warrior/sk is going to be approaching or at max melee stats.


Bottom line is every race and class can play an important role in almost every little niche of the game, because what matters more than wood elf v. ogre or human v. iksar or ranger v. rogue is the way the player behind the keyboard plays whatever it is he has chosen.

[filthyphil]

some ppl dont wanna lvl twice as long for lvl 60 to have extra regen on a char (monk) that is only tankin with healers that keep them at full or dead. also dont forget human monk at 60 win on the dps with the (what i think is the best combo) fist/sos (or some VP crap i know nothin about)
Ikky regen adds to the solo ability of a monk yes but then you are grinding alot longer as well. I feel like only necro is ikky or die because it increases there mana to health to mana abilities. but for all else troll wars/sks/shams ikky monks its like what 270 hp heal every minute *shrug ya its that much less damage your takin and you might ocasionally avoid a death by the health u regened but thats alot of extra grindin for it.



i personally go for looks over all else except stun immunity is game changing.

I just spray farted in my chair when I read the underlined. Erudite is the better end game choice because It can reach the Int cap faster, which means I can start focusing +HP items sooners. In the end I will have more HP than an iksar which is what really matters for a necro. Necros HP = Mana & Mana = HP. The extra 12 regen rate does not matter when I have vexing mordina healing me for 122 a tick. But what does matter is the ammount of extra hp I have for Arch Lich to eat & convert into mana to be spent on DPS.

[Ravager]

Fact is wood elf rogues weren't cool till I rolled mine.

[Tecmos Deception]

I just spray farted in my chair when I read the underlined. Erudite is the better end game choice because It can reach the Int cap faster, which means I can start focusing +HP items sooners. In the end I will have more HP than an iksar which is what really matters for a necro. Necros HP = Mana & Mana = HP. The extra 12 regen rate does not matter when I have vexing mordina healing me for 122 a tick. But what does matter is the ammount of extra hp I have for Arch Lich to eat & convert into mana to be spent on DPS.

Even if we assume that it is proper for a necro to cap int before focusing on hp items (which I'm doubting it is), how many more hp do you think an erudite will have than a similarly-geared iksar? A couple hundred? That is not going to make up for iksar regen causing you to lose fewer hp every tick you have lich going.

And then of course there will come a point when iksars and erudites both have their int capped even when they are focusing on boosting their hit points, because of how ridiculous velious gear gets.

[webrunner5]

A lot of people on P1999 does not realize that a Human Monk has a 20% XP penality.

Facts stranger than fiction.

[filthyphil]

"Assume that it is proper for a necro to cap int first".... yes that would be madness to assume an Int caster should cap his Int first. The erudite will always be the best choice for an Int caster, plain and simple. HP regen is overcome by the leach line of spells and is only a factor in low levels. No matter how you spin it solo gear, raid gear, velious gear, whatever.. the Erudite will have more HP in the end. Which when combined with a conversion of 36 hp to 35 mana, and a hot dot worth 1100hp is worth more than the regen. You don't need to rest for HP as a necro high end, nor do you need to be over 60% hp to pull. You alternate that leach spell in between pulls and are 100%. The only time I see the regen as being worth it is when you have a bad pull and are FD'd. We can argue this all day, but until you've played a necro at lvl 60 you won't know.

[Tecmos Deception]

A velious-raid-geared erudite necro is going to have more hp than a velious-raid-geared iksar necro?

No. Just no.

[filthyphil]

I didn't want to have to do this, but you've left me no choice.

A lvl 60 Erudite:

http://www.iloveportlandmaine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Snoop.jpg

A Lvl 60 Iksar:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9Gsu_hMGnVk/SrOa_6bemJI/AAAAAAAAGC8/eEPKMpCiu-M/s400/the%2BLizard%2BMan.JPG

Keep resting Lizard man... soon you will have enough mana to pull again.

[Kevlar]

After getting back into the game I'm kind of amazed how imbalanced the class/race combos are. Perhaps WoW ruined my MMO ideals, but I can't create a character anymore without thinking about numbers and end game use.

For example, why would anyone in their right mind play a human monk over an iksar?
Why are Barbarians even able to be rogues, and why are the arguably the best race for a rogue? They're not stealthy. They're a big loud race. Makes no sense! Why do rangers suck so bad, yet it's the class a lot of people want to play the most. The advantage ogres/troll have for warriors and shadowknights are ridiculous over other races. And more stuff. And more stuff.

I just needed to put this in writing somewhere. I'm not really too pissed and I'll still play.
I have to remind myself that EQ was about roleplaying more so than elitism to a point.

:o

The racial benefits are only going to have an impact at the lowest levels. Gear means so much more than naked stats. A cheal chain wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an ogre warrior or a gnome warrior. Well, the gnome will have better evasion and look cooler...

[Tarathiel]

Fact is wood elf rogues weren't cool till I rolled mine.

wood elf rogues were always cool bro, and you better worship tunare too

[godbox]

havnt we reached a point as gamers where we understand max mana pool / int is essentially useless since you never burn your entire pool

[Hailto]

havnt we reached a point as gamers where we understand max mana pool / int is essentially useless since you never burn your entire pool

This is why it makes much more sense to stack hp on a shaman than wis.

[Strifer]

Snoop Lion and guy who did not receive love as a child

http://i.imgur.com/aHij2.gif

this example ends all further discussion

[godbox]

This is why it makes much more sense to stack hp on a shaman than wis.

i always feel like its situation on a sham some fights I canni or risk takin hits so ya its all sta/hp/ac others I know im gonna spam heals (like if you are main heal on somethin not slowable) then I try to stack my mana pool as high as I can in case I cant get alot of cannis in.

[Mayhem2]

Verant didn't have much of a benchmark when they were developing EQ, they were treading new water and fucked a lot of the balance up. Pretty much it.

Yep. In imo they got the majority of it right.

13 years later, look at all the piss poor mmo's that have come out. The irony is the fact that, the way was pretty much paved for everyone else. WoW mastered it on a subscription level (easy mode, omg my 6 year old can play I don't have to parent anymore, button masher), yet was just not as fun in any way shape or form.

PS - Lol @ filthyphil. Someone is upset they didn't/couldn't choose an Iksar Necro.....

[Nordenwatch]

Iksar necro is by far the best, mitigating the damage from lich through innate iksar regen makes it so the necro can cast the leach line spell less often, making them much more mana efficient. Vexing Mordinia costs 495 mana to cast and heals for 111 a tic, while its an amazing heal it is still extremely costly.

And why are you working so hard to cap int? it doesn't matter all that much, at 60 you should be balancing your spells in such a way that the mana regen is about equal to the rate of mana spending. Necros especially should be stacking HP as much as they can. Its a larger pool for mordinia to be able to fill and having more hp = less death.

I made a human necro when I knew nothing about this game and have regretted not making an iksar for about a year now, I advise all necros to be iksar.

[Tecmos Deception]

easy mode, omg my 6 year old can play I don't have to parent anymore, button masher

Just because you logged onto WoW free trial once and you could kill level 1 noobie mobs with 2 frostbolts doesn't quite mean that the whole game is faceroll easy.

Very few adults can faceroll the game, hence the HM/normal separation, and now the LFR difficulty also. I'd pay good money to see a 10-year-old handle a raid of HMs that the raid doesn't vastly outgear, let alone someone younger than that.

[Sebekkha]

Human monks get better fist ratio at 60 :)

Human Monks where there before iksars, and were the only option!

Play what ever combo you wish, it's role playing afterall

[filthyphil]

PS - Lol @ filthyphil. Someone is upset they didn't/couldn't choose an Iksar Necro.....

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.parentdish.co.uk/media/2012/06/boy-anger-rex-1340366630.jpg

I would neva be a lizid.

[Kexon]

Gnome Warriors are accually fun to play ... Ogres may have advantages , but honestly its gear that matters in this game .

[Psionide]

tbh i wish there werent any race or class restrictions in eq, how cool would it be to actually play a dark elf ranger???

This is Everquest 2 and one of the biggest reasons I thought EQ2 was so dumb. Granted a dark elf ranger would be cool if they all weren't running around with some variation of drizzt but I think you need to have some restrictions. C'mon an ogre bard?

Also, its ironic to see all the people talking about how great RPing is but whenever a thread or guild thread pops up about a roleplaying guild everyone goes on to make fun of people who want to RP.

[Danth]

Everquest was made during the 90's when the concept of virtual worlds was still in vogue. This thread highlights a difference between a world simulator and a simple game. The latter will try to make everything equal due to wanting to be fair. In the former, life isn't always fair and the Ogre is a stronger Warrior than the Wood Elf because the Ogre is a 9 foot tall behemoth and the Woof Elf is some prancing 98-pound weakling. I don't play as Ogres or Trolls and I'm fine with that. I even prefer it. The best race for a given class doesn't have so much advantage as to make the other races useless, and in general your gear and the class you pick both matter far more than your starting race. The non-optimal races usually have advantages of their own anyway, ranging from ease of use to appearance.

Human monks level more quickly than Iksars and have vastly superior starting faction. These two factors combine to make the Human require less of the player's time than the Iksar. That serves as a useful advantage for players with restrictive schedules.

Danth

[Acillatem]

I just always play Human....I like the "underdog" factor......no vision boosts, no hide/sneak ability, no innate regen, no stun immunity. I also think this stems from a book called "Magic Kingdom For Sale: SOLD!" by Terry Brooks - it was a childhood favorite of mine and I guess the "concept" of a regular human in today's society being immersed in a fantasy world is ultimately how I envisioned myself in EQ all those years ago.

/shrug sumthin like that :)

[Itap]

I just always play Human....I like the "underdog" factor......no vision boosts, no hide/sneak ability, no innate regen, no stun immunity. I also think this stems from a book called "Magic Kingdom For Sale: SOLD!" by Terry Brooks - it was a childhood favorite of mine and I guess the "concept" of a regular human in today's society being immersed in a fantasy world is ultimately how I envisioned myself in EQ all those years ago.

/shrug sumthin like that :)

Well said. I never liked fatties due to the fact that they are so freakin ugly, no matter how much better warriors they make. Plus id rather be a unique class/race combo

[godbox]

troll plate graphics > all already then add in velious hockey masks for extra win

[falkun]

troll plate graphics > all already then add in velious hockey masks for extra win

While the hockey masks beats out the Ogre totem, the DEF male medusa, HIE male snow tiger, ERU male scorpion, GNO female tinkerer, and HUM dragons are also pretty awesome. If I could have put up with bucket helmets for kunark, I would have made my bard a human for the dragon helmets.

[SwordNboard]

Iksar velious helms!

[falkun]

Iksar velious helms!

Not my favorite.

[fadetree]

props to OP for kicking off a 4 page thread with a simple question and never speaking again.

[Picked]

Danth hit the nail on the head. You guys are comparing a game made back in 1999 to a game that was made light years in technology later. Of course there are going to be differences that are better in a game that was developed later.

People fail to realize that EQ was essentially the first of it's kind. Sure there was a couple other games, UO comes to mind, but none to the scale of EQ. It is that reason alone that makes it so nostalgic, and one of the main reasons a server like P99 even exists.

[Heavydrop]

Ogres and Trolls.... yeah they're great on stats and the
frontal stun immunity and regen is great too but there are certain
things that always bug me about playing them.
I hate being that tall and having to look down at almost all my targets.
I hate trying to squeeze my gigantic arse through just about every dungeon
and town I go to. Sometimes a shrink is available via spell or potion but
sometimes (by zone) shrink isn't even an option.
I hate the huge exp penalty that comes with being a fatty
I hate the horrendous faction too.
If you play those races and you have someone to help you out and
get around, great, more power to you.
To each their own but as for me, no thanks on the fatties...
but I will say I never understood the reasoning behind playing a Dark Elf
rogue... the starting stats are horrendous and the DE mask is the easiest
to get if all you really wanted was the look

[Mayhem2]

Nothing is more awesome than watching an Ogre or Troll tank wade into a bunch of mobs on the front line. They block punches with their faces. /comfort

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort

[Lagaidh]

what matters more than wood elf v. ogre or human v. iksar or ranger v. rogue is the way the player behind the keyboard plays whatever it is he has chosen.

This has been my experience in six years of live play and over two years of p99 play with about 3 years of WoW and a year of EQ2 mixed in.

It's the players that matter.

How this simple concept keeps being overlooked in massively multiplayer RPGs baffles me.

I've always been a DWF PAL in EQ. I can remember my HEF RNG buddy and I pulling off crap full groups wouldn't try. Yeah. We died a bit, but we would ultimately succeed.

There will always be min/max players that accomplish everything and consume all the content. You know what I've learned over the years? Those kind of players aren't as fun to spend time with. Again, it comes back to the player...

[Lagaidh]

While the hockey masks beats out the Ogre totem, the DEF male medusa, HIE male snow tiger, ERU male scorpion, GNO female tinkerer, and HUM dragons are also pretty awesome. If I could have put up with bucket helmets for kunark, I would have made my bard a human for the dragon helmets.

Dude!

How can you leave out the asymmetrical bucket hat that the male dwarves get?!

I can not WAIT!!

I want my bucket hat back so bad I can taste it.

[falkun]

I want my bucket hat back so bad I can taste it.

I listed the hats I liked, you are free to have any disagreement you wish. The bucket hat is better than the crap Iksars get though.

[Ferok]

Dude!

How can you leave out the asymmetrical bucket hat that the male dwarves get?!

I can not WAIT!!

I want my bucket hat back so bad I can taste it.

Bucket hat is the best, hands down. High elf dildo helm is a close second.

[Smedy]

After getting back into the game I'm kind of amazed how imbalanced the class/race combos are. Perhaps WoW ruined my MMO ideals, but I can't create a character anymore without thinking about numbers and end game use.

For example, why would anyone in their right mind play a human monk over an iksar?
Why are Barbarians even able to be rogues, and why are the arguably the best race for a rogue? They're not stealthy. They're a big loud race. Makes no sense! Why do rangers suck so bad, yet it's the class a lot of people want to play the most. The advantage ogres/troll have for warriors and shadowknights are ridiculous over other races. And more stuff. And more stuff.

I just needed to put this in writing somewhere. I'm not really too pissed and I'll still play.
I have to remind myself that EQ was about roleplaying more so than elitism to a point.

:o

From your bluebie perspective the barbarian sure looks to be the best in the game, but from a red pvp perspective the barbarian isn't

You probably can't figure it out, but it has nothing to do with stats that makes one of the rogue races superior on a red server.

[theaetatus]

This has been my experience in six years of live play and over two years of p99 play with about 3 years of WoW and a year of EQ2 mixed in.

It's the players that matter.

How this simple concept keeps being overlooked in massively multiplayer RPGs baffles me.

As far as I can see, no-one is suggesting that racial choice is more important than player skill. What people are saying is that some races get an advantage... Not A > B, but A + B > A

That's the simple concept that's not hard to grasp. :)

[webrunner5]

I think on here a Mage or a Necro can be good naked. It is more player skill. And for Melee's it is Skill plus twink gear. More toward the twink part. I don't think race has much to do with any of it in the end. Solo you can lean toward races that have re gen, but you are not really going to solo much at level 60 on a even con. Barely do a Light Blue.

[Lagaidh]

I listed the hats I liked, you are free to have any disagreement you wish. The bucket hat is better than the crap Iksars get though.

Either you dislike me, or imitate an android on the forums... I can't figure out which...

[Lagaidh]

As far as I can see, no-one is suggesting that racial choice is more important than player skill. What people are saying is that some races get an advantage... Not A > B, but A + B > A

That's the simple concept that's not hard to grasp. :)

Sigh.

I'm seriously not communicating well lately.

[theaetatus]

It's ok, you made sense mostly.

What all these skill vs race arguments boil down to is confusion as to the question asked. Generally someone asks 'What is the best race for this class', which is a min/maxing question, then some people reply 'Play any race, it's all down to skill', which isn't answering the question at all.

Everyone knows skill is more important when it comes down to it, and very few people will choose, say, an iksar monk over a human one for a group. However, if you are prone to min/maxing and don't want to regret a racial choice later on, it is handy to know which race is going to have an advantage, however slight.

P.S. I chose troll, I'm not min/maxing. I just prefer the Troll models to the Ogre ones.

[Picked]

People are just too racist in EQ!

I learned one thing a long time ago playing MMOs. Play what you want. Don't play something because it is status quo. The most important thing is that you enjoy playing that character because if you don't it's a long road to 60 with a character you enjoy, much less one you aren't a fan of but he does have nice stats.

Personally I wouldn't like playing an Ogre or troll. Just because a class gets slam or high strength or regen doesn't mean it's worth the pain and anguish of trying to group in solb or highkeep, or anywhere with narrow hallways. Getting stuck in hallways and dieing has to be the worst. It's hard enough not to die from your own mistakes let alone a design feature. I do like the looks of these classes, and get good chuckles out of them from time to time though.

[Danth]

I agree with your post, Theaetatus. Optimized racial choice serves mostly as a confidence booster for players who might otherwise be a little unsure of themselves. The couple percent you gain from actually picking the ideal race won't noticeably matter in a loosely-tuned game like Everquest. I can think of no case where a class of race_a can do something that the same class of race_b cannot. However, for some folks the psychological effect of picking the "best" race can make the difference between liking and disliking their character.

Danth

[Droog007]

To answer the OP:

I think barbarians are a race choice for rogues because Conan was was a thief (probably a fighter-thief if you want to get real D&D nerdy). I rolled a barbarian rogue because it was a rare combination at the time - I liked the stats but I eventually hated the bulky model when it came to raiding.

I think Rangers were heavily nerfed because they knew that if they were on an even field there would have been waaay too many of them (there still were). The reasons everyone wanted to be a ranger were: Drizzt, Aragorn, and Aradune (not sure of spelling - was one of the original Verant dudes - ran around with flaming swords and made all the nerds swoon). Playing a ranger in the face of all their glaring shortcomings was to be a martyr for your coolness.

Don't get mad at the nerd jab - I rolled ranger for my first character because I was a Drizzt junkie.

[Slave]

I can think of no case where a class of race_a can do something that the same class of race_b cannot.

Then you've never played an Ogre SK or Shaman; in fact I guarantee it. They have such an immense natural advantage compared to any other race with regards to casting that nobody who has ever played one could speak (or hear) the sentence above and maintain a straight face.

[godbox]

ya stun immunity is kinda the cats pajamas speaking as an ogre sham

[Danth]

Ok, you may make your point: Which creatures can the Ogre Shaman solo that Shamans of other races are wholly incapable of soloing?

I'm actually curious because I know of none and maybe you know something I don't. I know of plenty of cases where the ogre has a somewhat easier time of things, but in all such cases the other races can ultimately get the job done, too.

Danth

[godbox]

all ive ever heard of are velious era dragons where the stun immune ends up being life or death *shrug otherwise ya its easier but its alot easier and frequently a life saver.

[Nirgon]

You have to consider how hard those dragons are hitting you and that, yes, one bash means you can drop. Ogre is just better for solo'ing shit with a jbb too.

Iksar velious helm fave or barb.

[Raavak]

Well said. I never liked fatties due to the fact that they are so freakin ugly, no matter how much better warriors they make. Plus id rather be a unique class/race combo

Just don't make a human warrior, that's something a complete noob would do. Say, and make him worship Innoruuk too. I bet no raid guild would ever let you in.

[falkun]

Either you dislike me, or imitate an android on the forums... I can't figure out which...

I don't dislike you, I just recognize we have a difference of opinion and don't feel like bothering to attempt to convince you nor do I feel you should bother to attempt to convince me of the merits of the bucket. Its just not worth the effort for either of us. But its not a reason for animosity.

[theaetatus]

Woooshhhh....

[Slave]

Ok, you may make your point: Which creatures can the Ogre Shaman solo that Shamans of other races are wholly incapable of soloing?

I'm actually curious because I know of none and maybe you know something I don't. I know of plenty of cases where the ogre has a somewhat easier time of things, but in all such cases the other races can ultimately get the job done, too.

Danth

How about simply being able to CC 5-6 blue mobs at once in a dungeon-like setting? Say you turn a corner and 5 mobs social. What do you do, hotshot? What do you do? You die if you're not an Ogre, that's what.

[diplo]

sad mad :(

cause some people play with vanity in mind rather than the numbers...derp

[kaev]

sad mad :(

cause some people play with vanity in mind rather than the numbers...derp

I hope that's sarcasm, because I find it pretty sad how many people make themselves unhappy by imagining that numbers == fun.

[Itap]

Just don't make a human warrior, that's something a complete noob would do. Say, and make him worship Innoruuk too. I bet no raid guild would ever let you in.

i sense sarcasm :p

[ccs88]

OP has returned! Sorry, I went to a renaissance festival in MN.

Obviously people have their differing opinions on this topic, and 7 pages later I deem it was worth posting! I'm surprised only 2 or 3 people directed their comments at me and actually discussed the topic for once, what a nice community <3

[eqravenprince]

Why would anyone play a Human Monk vs Iksar Monk? Whether they are good reasons or not, I like the way a Human Monk looks. I like that I am not kos everywhere. I do not like most Kunark zones. I like being unique. I like not having a race exp penalty. Lastly, I started my Human Monk before Kunark was released.

[Picked]

Why would anyone play a Human Monk vs Iksar Monk? Whether they are good reasons or not, I like the way a Human Monk looks. I like that I am not kos everywhere. I do not like most Kunark zones. I like being unique. I like not having a race exp penalty. Lastly, I started my Human Monk before Kunark was released.

Maybe you like the starting city better. Maybe you can level faster not being KoS in the places you enjoy hunting. There are a bunch of reasons to play certain classes. I just play what I enjoy and like to play. I don't really care what specific race happens to have one ability that might make him better in a duel, or better in a certain areas of the game.

Doesn't all the racial stuff get wiped out after Velious anyways? Or was it after Luclin they decided to take racial bonus' out of the game?

[Ele]

Maybe you like the starting city better. Maybe you can level faster not being KoS in the places you enjoy hunting. There are a bunch of reasons to play certain classes. I just play what I enjoy and like to play. I don't really care what specific race happens to have one ability that might make him better in a duel, or better in a certain areas of the game.

Doesn't all the racial stuff get wiped out after Velious anyways? Or was it after Luclin they decided to take racial bonus' out of the game?

Racial penalties remained until 2006 (Serpent's Spine expansion (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2006-2.html)).

[kaev]

Why would anyone play a Human Monk vs Iksar Monk? Whether they are good reasons or not, I like the way a Human Monk looks. I like that I am not kos everywhere. I do not like most Kunark zones. I like being unique. I like not having a race exp penalty. Lastly, I started my Human Monk before Kunark was released.

Unique? Unique!? Really??? As far as I can tell, the only two race/class combos on this server that outnumber human monk twink are iksar monk twink and wood-elf druid pharmer. Cool joke there, tell us another one.

[Slycen]

Ogre = fun
Wood Elf = fun

This is all.

[Teddie1056]

Halfling Warrior > Ogre Warrior...

But in all seriousness,

Halfling Warrior > Troll Warrior. That regen doesn't really matter. Halfling racial bonuses are the best in the game (resists, xp bonus, hide/sneak). Halfling Dex means they hold agro over a troll warrior. Only + for a troll is their Stamina. Plus we aren't evil.

[Grahm]

humans flying kick is fucking RAW. lol tail strike wutever. iksars wack

[rabuliz]

lmao =D

Sorry, was laughing about High Elf dildo hat comment ;p Quotes didn't come through.

[Picked]

Racial penalties remained until 2006 (Serpent's Spine expansion (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2006-2.html)).

wow, I didn't realize they stayed in the game that long. I guess it was less noticeable by Velious. Being maxed on a stat was no big feat by that time. Maybe that's what got me thinking about why it might have been Luclin/Velious.

[falkun]

It was less noticable because the racial penalties are small compared to class penalties:

a hybrid penalty of 40% is much worse than a maximum racial penalty of 20%. Also, the average racial penalty is 4.2% vs. the average class penalty of 14.4%.

[Llodd]

Where does EQ lore say that barbarians can't be sneaky?

.

I suppose they could if they didn't fart so god damn much. But they do, so they can't.

(oh and barbarians generally through myth and legend have tended to be foul loud mouthed noisy sons of bitches)

[Versus]

humans flying kick is fucking RAW. lol tail strike wutever. iksars wack

[kaev]

I suppose they could if they didn't fart so god damn much. But they do, so they can't.

(oh and barbarians generally through myth and legend have tended to be foul loud mouthed noisy sons of bitches)

Here, let me help you with that...

(oh and barbarians generally through myth and legend have routinely been described as foul loud mouthed noisy sons of bitches by the more settled peoples they have been in conflict with)

Seriously.

There are no self-described "barbarian" peoples I know of in human history. The word is a deliberate insult born of xenophobia mixed with legitimate fear of being raided. You can be pretty damned confident (aka absolutely certain) that many of these "barbarians" had a need for and made regular use of stealthy scouts and spies.

[And now I feel dirty for feeding a troll.]

[Ele]

The wiki entry for "Barbarian" is fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian

[Llodd]

Here, let me help you with that...

(oh and barbarians generally through myth and legend have routinely been described as foul loud mouthed noisy sons of bitches by the more settled peoples they have been in conflict with)

Seriously.

There are no self-described "barbarian" peoples I know of in human history. The word is a deliberate insult born of xenophobia mixed with legitimate fear of being raided. You can be pretty damned confident (aka absolutely certain) that many of these "barbarians" had a need for and made regular use of stealthy scouts and spies.

[And now I feel dirty for feeding a troll.]

Uh what? You do know the meaning of myth and legend ? Putting in some non sensical bold print doesn't change the meaning of what was said. I'll say it again for ya and even include some bold print!! Myth and legend

While it's true that the word barbarian is a descriptive term in human history that has been applied to many different races based on their actions, EQ has made it a race all of its own. It's not counter intuitive to try and extrapolate from our understanding of the word how such a race might be, and unfortunately it's not of the soft tredding angelic type!

Your counter troll has all but flogged the skin of this horse.

[kaev]

Gratz, your mastery of nonsensical forum posting is second to none.

[Verityn]

The imbalance of the races was a fond feature for me and before Kunark came out I don't remember people making that big of a deal out of it. My first 50 was a Half Elf Druid and I never remember anyone pointing out that I had the equivalent of an entire bubble less mana than a Halfling. While I noticed that a gnome warrior had much less HP than an Ogre it still never stopped at least my gnome warrior friend from getting into Solb & lguk groups. He seemed more powerful at tanking than a monk or even a ranger so what's there to be complain about.

Now if you're going to talk about class balance, yes it was there with bells on, however, that was also a charming part of the game. From what I've gathered from having the opportunity to talk to Brad McQuaid it was clearly intentional to make the Necromancer for example capable of soloing what took 3 or more players. This same concept was even carried over to Vanguard to some degree and I've never seen it again. Well, does anyone even remember Horizons to warrant mentioning?

But yeah just like everyone says, play what you like, or you'll never enjoy an RPG. I think anyone who has played an Elder Scrolls game can vouch for this concept where you can spend hours optimizing a character just to realize that your character has no place in the reality of the game world.

[Tecmos Deception]

I remember Horizons. Had fun with it for a little while. Crafting was cool.

Optimizing an Elder Scrolls game just means "what one of the several different ridiculously broken things can I figure out to do with my character?" because the balance for those games is always so abysmal at release and they hardly do anything to fix it themselves cause they know the modders will just pick up the slack. I can't wait to see the ES MMO. It will be such a lulz fest.

[Versus]

The wiki entry for "Barbarian" is fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian

This is why I love you.

[Versus]

Doh, I didn't read the post just before yours trying to describe what a barbarian actually is. I still love you though.

[Reptak]

I keep seeing people say at 60, Human monk fist damage is better that Iksar, which is true (true pretty much all the way through). But no mention that Epic negates this and both get 9/16 fists. Which basically is all monks at 60. Human monks do not have a dps advantage over Iksar unless they are naked.

[Vicawin]

Use your imagination.

[greatdane]

The reason races were like this is that this is how they were on SojournMUD, the game that inspired Brad McQuaid to make Everquest. However, in that game, two additional factors made the races more balanced in a way.

First off, agility and dexterity meant a lot more than they do in EQ. The game was based heavily on the AD&D2nd ruleset (except it split the original dex stat into dex and agi, and changed the scale of some numbers a little to make it work better with a DIKU codebase) so agi made a huge difference in armor class. There were certain breakpoints and each race had an agi cap that determined their maximum possible avoidance AC. In EQ, agi makes almost no difference and can be completely ignored as long as you don't go below the 75 threshold.

Basically, AC from armor had a range of 200, from 100 (worst) to -100 (best). The agi modifier then came on top independently of worn armor, ensuring that the race's agi mattered even if you had max armor from items. As far as I remember, the highest bonus was grey elf with -55, while some races like ogre actually had a penalty. The difference from least to most agile was something like 75 armor. Considering that the base scale spanned 200 points, 75 was a huge difference. The agile races had comparatively less strength and con, so an ogre might have like 30-40% more hit points than an elf and hit twice as hard. Dex affected several things, including chance for extra attacks, making it a very important stat as well.

Secondly, the setting was a lot more realistic (within the premises of the game, at least - it was still AD&D in Forgotten Realms) so if you chose to play an evil race, it was a lot harder. In the case of some races, it was almost impossible to play unless you already had max-level characters with endgame gear (nothing was no-drop) so that you could make a supertwink. Still, the evil races had serious problems such as being actually blind in daylight, like literally unable to see, and living in a part of the world that was as hospitable as Plane of Fear or something. You couldn't just fuck off to a nicer part of the world at level 10 and get a bind in a convenient spot. If you were a dark elf, you lived in the fucking underdark and only came to the carebear surface during raids. This meant it was okay for evil races to be statistically superior in many ways, and it was balanced like that. Evil was like hardmode and you had basically separate playerbases because you couldn't group across good and evil.

Everquest lost sight of this distinction and kept some parts of the Sojourn model without implementing most of the balancing factors. This is why you see things like ogres having so much better stats for tanking because they forgot to make agility matter, and why the races with high int are so superior as spellcasters because the stamina formula result in such a small difference in hit points. On Sojourn, a human enchanter would have a good 20% more hit points than a dark elf. If you played an invoker (wizard), whose job was mostly to unload a full memorization pool worth of nukes and then get out of harm's way, it was better to be a race with high int (memorize spells back faster) while an enchanter or elementalist (magician) might want to be a sturdier race because they had to be in the danger zone the whole fight in order to reactively stoneskin the tank, command their pet and such. Sojourn didn't have mana, it had memorization like D&D, so a class that delivered a bunch of damage and then disengaged to re-memorize was better off with high int and low hp while a class that had to stay in the fight as support didn't need that high int but had to have more hp.

On Sojourn, this race system served as an early precursor to "builds" in this way. You could make an avoidance tank or a meatshield tank, and they functioned in entirely different ways. Sure, a human warrior would suck and nobody played that, but human was the only race that could be paladins and anti-paladins (basically shadowknights). There weren't talent points or anything like that, but your race/class combination determined what role you'd fill. Bashing was an important form of crowd control and you couldn't bash or be bashed by anything more than two size categories away from you, so very small or very big tanks were good for not being bashable by most mobs while more average-sized fighters served as bashers themselves. A shrunk gnome tank couldn't be bashed by an earth elemental, which was important for tanking them -- but he couldn't bash them either and someone had to do that, so a barbarian might be just the right size for that particular kind of mob. Some mobs couldn't be bashed at all and had to be charged instead by a mounted fighter, i.e a human paladin or anti-paladin. Some mobs hit really hard so you'd want an elf avoidance tank, others had unavoidable breath attacks so you'd want an ogre meatshield.

Everquest took half of that system and ignored the other half, leaving some obvious gaps that now make every class have one or two obviously optimal races. I actually wonder how well the developers understood this -- I don't remember Brad McQuaid as a player from Sojourn so I can't say whether he was a noob or what, but EQ's race system suggests he at least didn't understand that part of it.


Fun fact: SojournMUD invented the concepts of PvE raiding, tanking, advanced itemization, and all the other core elements of MMORPGs. Considering the fact that MUDs are 100% text-based games that peaked in the early and mid-90s, that's pretty impressive. SojournMUD is still alive and currently called TorilMUD, but I don't think it's very active anymore and it's just as dependent on a playerbase as Everquest is. Last time I checked was in like 2008 and the playerbase was down to under 50 even then. It had hundreds of players online back in the day and the game was played in exactly the same way as you play Everquest, right down to having almost all the same classes and races, plus a lot of similar zones. Trolls live in a swamp while their neighbouring ogre cousins live in some kind of stone age-like village. Humans have their main city of Waterdeep, after which Freeport is directly modeled, and then the secondary city of Baldur's Gate in the other end of the world. Barbarians live in the frozen peaks in the north and so on. The parrallels are strikingly obvious. The main difference is the Underdark where most of the evil races live, except for ogres and trolls, though they tend to go there because they can't go very far on the surface.

[Tecmos Deception]

Only read your post until I got to the point where a negative number for armor was better, and then I remembered THAC0 and how totally retarded it was.

Who in their right mind would develop a system where you have to do that much shit bassackwards?

[greatdane]

It's not the most elegant system, but I guess everything starts out primitive before it gets refined. Keep in mind that it was made for a dice system where it made a bit more sense. You have a d20 and your THAC0 score, so by default you need to roll your THAC0 or higher to hit. Then modify this number based on the target's AC. Think of AC's numerical value not as a measurement of 'how tough is my armor' but instead 'how does my armor affect an attack.' If your AC is -5, everyone gets -5 to their attack roll against you. It makes a little more sense that way.