The real deal on dispelling

[Nirgon]

The dispel mechanics thread:

History
At one point in the time line, you could dispel NPCs and they would not even react, this no longer fits here: cannot find missing patch note!

What I did find is the comment from 1999 here:

Cancel magic is also good to cast against casting mobs as well. We use it when hunting in Cazic Thule against Justicars, Judicators, Heralds, and any other enemy caster. If sucessful, it will take down one of their buffs. It mob will almost always stop its attack to try and rebuff itself, buy you time to get in a few good hits as it both unbuffed AND busy trying to reestablish the removed buff.

It also lists on this page someone using it to pull, citing the time it was fixed in between.


Aha!!! Here is around when the patch is!!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010714081928/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=331&mode=details&spname=Cancel+Magic&type=

Just an update / warning...

the Cancel Magic Spell has been changed in a recent patch, and all creatures and NPCs WILL consider its use on them as an act of HOSTILITY, and they will respond, just as if you attacked them! (Bummer) :-(

More evidence for non-hostile as a 1999 post, 2 for one link!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010714081928/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=331&mode=details&spname=Cancel+Magic&type=

The MOMENT you get this spell go to the Lavastorm mountains and start fighting Fire Elementals and Fire Imps.

You can dispell their fire shields with this spell, making them much easier to kill. Also, this is non-hostile to them (as noted above) so you can do it BEFORE pulling and they will arrive fire-shield free.

They do recast sometimes, but just dispell them again.

Cancel Magic is also considered non-hostile by creatures, so you can cast it on something and cancel their damage shield or other buffs, and they don't get mad.

This makes it a pretty decent thing to cast right as a tank is pulling a creature, since it won't immediately go after you like a strong DD spell or whatever might make it do.

Basic mechanics and misconceptions explained:
It does indeed follow top to bottom for effects!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010714075146/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=441&mode=details&spname=Cancel+Magic&type=


The "it removed a few random ones" misconception noted here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010714081913/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=6674&mode=details&spname=Nullify+Magic&type=


"This guy also notes that for 'some reason' it seems to dispel randoms" :
http://web.archive.org/web/20010714080903/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=4050&mode=details&spname=Cancel+Magic&type=

hmmmmm great spell to bad it randomly dispels 1 of the effects on you, sometimes it removes usefull buffs or something like enduring breath which when underwater is not good. Spell can remove charm to bad you cant cast on yourself if you get charmed real useful if your alone eh? all to often this spell removes neccessary or important buffs rather than dots or charm. if you have been fully loaded with shaman buffs and are trying to remove a negative effect from someone it could take you a while. this spell also can remove levitate sow and wolf form all of which being not good or those nice buff that a high lvl cleric or druid spared you that were helping you win all the fights. removes damage shield as well which can be either helpful or hurt you (depending on who its cast on).


More of a guy thinking it is random:
Come on tagsh... Oh well it is still random but at least now it can take off more magic. As if that helps...
http://web.archive.org/web/20010711214554/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=129237&mode=details&spname=Nullify+Magic&type=

See in here also though, a player tries cancel magic. It is strong enough to remove SoW but not malise!.


Another example also of removing as many as 3 with a nullify!

http://web.archive.org/web/20010711213529/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=127116&mode=details&spname=Annul+Magic&type=

This information has to be incorrect. Nullify Magic is a lower level shaman spell and it removes 3 buffs from the target. Note: you must be grouped with the person to cast this spell on them. But, in the case of annoying kiting druids, just cast this on the mob that's following them. Hahaha, it stops being snared and they get their ass whupped!


Again, a mention of removing 3!!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010714082732/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=6194&mode=details&spname=Nullify+Magic&type=
This spell is the upgrade to Cancel Magic. It will take off a few buffs if not all of them off your opponent. It can also be good if you have been mobbed on by magic casters have have over 3 spells stuck on you.

Soo.. even if the person in your group can't learn to stack buffs right? At least you can still remove the nasty charm/fear if applicable and not nail their other buffs.


Great reinforcement and even proves it worked this way in pvp:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010714081928/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=331&mode=details&spname=Cancel+Magic&type=
Did my little test on Cancel Magic and it seems that it does indeed only work on magic based spells. I was unable to cancel the effects of boil blood, heat blood and posion bolt. But it wiped out Dooming darkness.

^ that's right, cast it all you want! it is not strong enough to remove certain spells. this is not level specific either. Now, let's "boil" this down more.. it appears it should not effect the "heat" lines of spells. Whereas annul magic does. Annul magic per Everlore removes 2 debuffs which can include magic, fire or cold! See my notes on annul.




More evidence of 3 removed!

its a better version of cancel magic....this spell takes down about 3 buffs at a time instead of 1. Can be very useful sometimes when used at the right times.

Zita(Quellious)
50th Druid






Okay now for annul...
Under cleric:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010711210904/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=124401&mode=details&spname=Annul+Magic&type=
if this allows you to remove 2 effects what is the diff between this spell and nullify, which also allows you to remove 2 effects?

^ Of course some dunce wrote on that same page it removes 4, that is ridiculous and was never true. It removes 2 buffs or debuffs every time and only 2.

Synopsis:
Cancel magic and nullify magic work very much like the cure disease line. You should be able to remove from the top down and each dispel has a set number of counters it removes. HOWEVER! It will only remove an effect if it meets the correct "strength check" to remove a magic counter. For instance, no matter how many times you cast cancel magic, you should not be able to dispel Winged Death. Nullify magic even removes enough counters that it can kill as many as 3 lesser buffs/debuffs, I recall this.

Annul magic: again, always removes 2 and only 2 except for elemental.


What I need to find to nail this one down
I appear to have the evidence nailed down for the necro heat line not being able to be removed by cancel magic as indicated by the above player's testing. I do know I could remove pyrocour and winged death in Velious from me, or even Vexing Mord + Pyrocour with a single annul.

What I need, I guess, is in plain english of Annul Magic stating always removes 2 and only 2 no matter what

A real pickle now is that he notes it removes dooming darkness (level 29 necro) but cannot remove maliase which is obtainable as early as 19 by shaman or 29 by necro. I do recall being able to remove malise line, even malo/mala with an annul. I remember being lvl 24 and feeling inferior to the 24 mage because their 24 spell at that time did similar damage, had spell push AND they had a pet and debuff. A debuff I remember that I couldn't remove even when trying to spam cancel magic.

Even tougher, how can we determine how many counters one removes, how many counters each positive or negative has and even still... which dispel is strong enough to effect each line / level of each spell. IE: I can remove stinging swarm with cancel magic, but not drifting/winged death as many times as I try. Or: nullify magic removes a drifting death + snare but not a winged death + snare (recalled also from memory).

Help me fill in the gaps or direct any angst/grammar to RNF.

[Nirgon]

I wanted to make the above thread based only on my memory of how this worked, and then to generate discussion from there. I realized that can't happen here without some major attacks on my credibility. I've carried quite a load here compiling all this and this is definitely not a bogus "granddad remembers" thread as I've been accused of making before. If you want a more classic server, I'm worth listening to :)!

[Nirgon]

One current issue: you can remove many "uber level" buffs like shield of the magi on both red and blue with a single cast of cancel magic. It, in effect, incorrectly has the "strength" of annul but removes less counters. This is very wrong and definitely not the case on live! It could also remove the necro heat line last I tried.

[Nirgon]

Found by Bamzal, more good infos:


http://web.archive.org/web/20020305002426/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1368



Level: 39
Mana: 30
Casting Time: 3.5 seconds
Recast Time: 5 seconds
Actual Effects: Target: Attempt to Remove 2 Spell Effects


SPELL COMMENTS
ONLY REMOVES ONE, By Ahappysk (1/28/2001)

This spell actually only removes a maximum of one (de)buff at a time. Also, it"s not guaranteed that a spell will be removed with each cast; if a debuff was cast by a very high level character or NPC it may take a few casts of this to break it. Robe casters get higher level versions of this that have a better chance of removing one or more effects (Enchanters" Pillage Enchantment being the ultimate spell in this line, IIRC).

[pasi]

Solid work.

Although, I think this falls into the category of classic things that they want to keep non-classic for gameplay's sake. See: pet aggro, mob spellbooks, etc.

[Nirgon]

How much of a rewrite does this require to get cancel magic to be unable to dispel high level buffs/dota in a single cast? That would just be a good start imo.

Annul should always take 2. Nullify should be able to take 2 in most cases but not always.

I haven't researched the enchanter line but cancel/nullify should work more like removing disease/poison counters. However, I believe it was the case that no matter how many times you casted cancel magic you couldn't remove winged death from yourself so I feel that it was just a bit different than simply making it counter based like poison/disease.

[Nirgon]

Need someone who played enchanter on live to fill in some pieces on how their lines should work that way I have something to go on to find proofs for claims.

[Bamz4l]

good thread.

it would be good to understand how dispel counters really worked. I will try to explain the best way I can remember, and also using things we know now like charge count, etc.

So for example, Nullify Magic has the following description:
1 Cancel Magic(4)
2 Cancel Magic(4)

This seems to be telling us that Nullify Magic delivers two charges of "Cancel Magic" each with a 4x counter.

Now how would that apply to a buff stack...

My impression is that it will use the first charge of Cancel Magic (with 4 counters) and target the top slot. Now if the top-slot is weak (aka 4 counters or less required to dispel), then it will be dispelled and then the process will be repeated with the second charge of Cancel Magic (with 4 counters) onto the second buffslot.

But, if it's a stronger debuff in your top-slot, requiring more than 4 counters, the first Cancel Magic removes 4 counters, and this is where it gets a bit grey. it seems that the second charge of Cancel Magic always attempts to move down and target the next buffslot, even if the first charge of Cancel Magic wasn't enough to remove the top-slot. I believe that is where a lot of discrepancies come in, regarding non-top slots being removed before the top-slot.

Now lets say you cast Nullify again, the first charge will attempt to remove the top-slot again (remove another 4 counters) and hopefully actually dispel it this time, and the second charge of Cancel Magic will continue targeting to the next available buffslot.

[Bamz4l]

actually I see that you have a better theory going in your original post than mine, so please disregard ^

[arsenalpow]

Did some chantering on SZ. The dispell line was never resisted. It was a common occurrence to catch someone running by. Hit them with a rapture, tash them, then start using strip/pillage/recant until it hit the rapture which meant you generally were successful in nuking the majority of their buffs.

The spell line worked just like cure disease or poison. You'd get hit by ebolt and the spell would have X poison counters on it. Cure poison takes off 1 counter at a time, antidote took off 4 counters (or whatever). The same thing would go along with something like winged death, it's a magic dot along with 6 magic dot counters and you'd need to cast cancel 6 times, or nullify 3 times, or annul twice, etc etc

[Velerin]

Yeah the dispel line was never resisted. But most people had 2 instas so could just replace them against anyone other than an enchanter.

[Nirgon]

Annul as I said was special and always nabbed 2. I do recall Nullify grabbing one at times and 2 on others.

Some of the enchanter lines always nabbed X whereas others (under the hood) basically just applied a few nullifies/cancels.

I think we can actually verify all this on live as far as testing.


Question is without having to test every single spell or make generalizations... which of these values (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellraw.html?id=1610&source=Live) is counters to use when dispelling?



attrib4 10

??


Edit found this (http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6003). Some serious reading here but explains alot.... think this has most of our answers:


7. DISPELLING

^ Gets good here if you are skimming.


Dispels always land, even if they don't seem to work. Each buff gets a check versus the strength of the dispel. If the buff fails the check, it gets stripped. If that buff passes the check, the dispel moves on to the next buff, and so on. In the case of every buff passing the check, no buffs will be stripped.


^ Exactly this!




Special cases:

some mobs have special dispels that will remove random buffs.


^ Phinny and Inny for us

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Nullify grabbed two for me yesterday when I dispelled my charmed pet. Took off root and charm.

[Nirgon]

Here it will always remove 2 regardless of strength of what it is going for (which is what Annul should be doing).

Cancel will always remove 1 here regardless of strength (so basically 1 instance of cancel[9] instead of cancel[4]).

That's when I started thinkin' bout makin' this thread because it shouldn't do this.

[Splorf22]

This could have interesting effects in PVE, as cancel is unresistable and the others are not

[SamwiseRed]

would be nice if people had to pumice twice to get my druid dots off

[Nirgon]

Dev pals would you accept live testing for this? Should be the same.

[BlkCamel]

I believe Malo line should be cured with cure disease not dispell, I will try to find proof.

[Daldaen]

I believe Malo line should be cured with cure disease not dispell, I will try to find proof.

Tash is cured with poison. Malo never had a cure counter on it.

[BlkCamel]

I believe Malo line should be cured with cure disease not dispell, I will try to find proof.

dis-regard this cannot find anything substantiating this for the time-line. Proceed away!

[Nirgon]

Check out the cure/dispel guide. To your credit malise was funky to dispel given the dispels that are available at the same time.

[Haynar]

I will acknowledge this is an issue. Not on my radar right now.

H

[Nirgon]

Will you accept live testing? I'm keeping well in mind that of course you got way bigger fish to fry.