Game breaking exploit necro heal

[Nirgon]

Necros should not be able to use cancel magic to remove the negative portion of this effect that it applies to them.

See: http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Pact_of_Shadow

And that line of spells.

[bizzum]

Looking lucy spell data (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellraw.html?id=2468&source=Live), the raw data for the recourse has a value of 0 for "nodispell" (false).

No history in the spell data shows that value being changed.

Looked at Turgur's just to be sure 0 meant dispellable, and Turgur's value is one.

I didnt do much research though so if you have something better!

[Nirgon]

And here it says you cannot dispel it:

http://eq.magelo.com/spell/2475

I was hoping common sense would play a card here as well as people who played on EQ Live would chime in.

It's a 10mana heal or so for gobs of hps. Do you really think it's supposed to be dispellable?..

[uygi]

A little devil's advocate, don't forget that Lucy is NOT a classic era reference. Lucy did not exist and its(her?) history does not run back to Kunark or Velious eras (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=341&source=Live). That said, I still think Lucy is a useful resource, but it won't tell you what the game was like in 2000 or 2001. If you assume it didn't change til 2002 (and most things didn't) then it's great.

[bizzum]

True, didn't say it was the end all, but Im just giving what I can find. I might have to play hypocrite and say it seems like common sense would prevail and you would think something like this probably wouldn't get changed.

Anyways, it was just one piece, always open to other more reliable info! I'd say Lucy is probably a better bet than Magelo, thats sites like straight otta 2010

[Nirgon]

So you're saying something can't be broken in the EQ Emu code that didn't have to be patched in classic?

Rather than presume everything in the EQ Emu code to be right, I presume most or all of it to be wrong until fixed.

This is one glaring example.

Could you dispel res effects at any point on this server? Just wondering.

[Nirgon]

This is an EQ Emu code bug btw before we go demanding patch notes.

Common sense is a fine argument for a 10mana spell that heals for as much as it does, its not meant to be an insult. However, I feel as if I'm being greeted with some snootiness where none should exist on this topic.

I'll let Kanras and Nilbog decide.

[Treats]

This isn't classic as Recourses did not even exist until the Luclin era.

There was no way to dispel the recourse back then because it wouldn't even show up in the buff bar.

[Nirgon]

Exactly, there should be absolutely no way to dispel this.

This wasn't overlooked, or misplaced.

When we move on from these, I have quite a laundry list of other changes.

I seem to recall just having to look at my stats to see how close I was on res effects fading too, that's a toughie where I'm not 100% sure and would have to look.


Not like this spell/line needed a look before here, right?


Uthgaard: Fixed a typo in Shadowbond that was causing the spell's recourse to give -125 charisma instead of -125 hp per tick

[Dentalplan]

This didn't get nerfed until nearly PoP era. And even then the damage portion was still dispellable, it just also dispelled the heal.

07/24/2002 Patch Notes (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020724.html)

Spells that transfer hit points over time from the caster to a target will no longer take effect on the target (the hit point gainer) if the caster (the hit point giver) isn't also affected by the spell.

[Nirgon]

I didn't say it was viable for keeping a tank up on a raid target. Why you would think I was implying that...

The necro pact line did have issues after changes within the spell system as a whole. You could not dispel the damaging portion of this spell from launch until PoP.

Related

- Pact of Shadow and Shadow Compact will once again heal player
characters.


http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2003-1.html


Good try tho. Should we make it so it doesn't heal at all in this case? I don't think that's smart.

No surprise the PvE raid crowd is against this stuff. Moving right along!

[koros]

le sigh, can we stop posting about non-existent bugs and let those of us who do remember do the research for real issues?

June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------

** Acrylia Caverns **

- The Chieftain has gone on a vacation. We're retuning this encounter, and beg your indulgence while we work on it.


** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer
- Nature's melody and Song of the Deep Seas should now stack with Dance of the Blades

[Ambrotos]

If anyone has facts through links feel free to post them. Just posting blocks of words from your memory won't cut it to argue.

[Nirgon]

That above link is due to part of the change to the spell system that actually showed a recourse, which broke this and then was patched again.

I have posted another patch note that says it was never healing at all, and that came in PoP or so? Should we never have it heal at all?

This change occurred around the same time as well

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2003-1.html

- Pact of Shadow and Shadow Compact will once again heal player
characters.


If Nilbog/Kanras are fine leaving this broken, so be it.

[Xadion]

as for the rez effects questions... Yes you could despell it on this server...for about 2 or 3 months...like on live :P

[Jjlent]

it seems koros posted patch notes that prove u have no idea what ur talking about nirgon

[Nirgon]

Notes from 2002 are not only much later but AFTER they made changes to the spell system to show recourse effects.

There were 2 fixes that had to be applied after the change to the spell system.

Please post proof of being able to dispel res effects on live. See what I did there?

I post evidence from patch notes in other threads and you still argue against them... its all about the gimped PvE.

[Happyfeet]

Notes from 2002 are not only much later but AFTER they made changes to the spell system to show recourse effects.

There were 2 fixes that had to be applied after the change to the spell system.

Anything to make the PvE easier, but yeah you're probably good at Everquest.


Oh give him a warning for trolling on bugs!

[Nirgon]

How is telling you that there was a spell revamp during that time trolling?

If I can find the link to the live necro botb somewhere, you'll see the necros do not and cannot dispel the recourse from themselves but DID use it to heal their pet while tapping the enemy's.


------------------------------
January 9, 2003
------------------------------

- Pact of Shadow and Shadow Compact will once again heal player
characters.


Sup? Make this not heal players ever on this server? Clearly a change for 2003.

[Xanthias]

How is telling you that there was a spell revamp during that time trolling?

If I can find the link to the live necro botb somewhere, you'll see the necros do not and cannot dispel the recourse from themselves but DID use it to heal their pet while tapping the enemy's.

Umm the only link I am aware of from the necro botb, involves them twitching each other.

[Daldolma]

How is telling you that there was a spell revamp during that time trolling?

If I can find the link to the live necro botb somewhere, you'll see the necros do not and cannot dispel the recourse from themselves but DID use it to heal their pet while tapping the enemy's.


------------------------------
January 9, 2003
------------------------------

- Pact of Shadow and Shadow Compact will once again heal player
characters.


Sup? Make this not heal players ever on this server? Clearly a change for 2003.

Apparently your reading comprehension has abandoned you. That patch note clearly states that they will once again heal player characters. As such, it must be understood that they had healed player characters prior to January 9, 2003, as well. Once again, your research is deficient. You have found the date at which they resumed healing player characters; still a mystery is the date at which these spells first ceased to heal player characters. Find that date, then come back.

On the contrary, Koros' patch note reads: "The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer". Within that patch note, there is absolutely no reason to believe that there ever existed a time, prior to that patch, during which the necromancer could not dispell the Shadowbond series of spells. Dentalplan's patch note reads: "Spells that transfer hit points over time from the caster to a target will no longer take effect on the target (the hit point gainer) if the caster (the hit point giver) isn't also affected by the spell." That did not take effect until July 24, 2002, and again, there is nothing within that patch note to suggest that there had ever been a previous period during which the transfer of hit points would not take effect even if the caster isn't also affected by the spell.

If your contention is that the recourse did not appear as a buff and thus was not eligible to be dispelled, then you are welcome to find evidence of that -- but you haven't provided any. "Common sense" is not a suitable substitute for evidence, nor is your memory. Many aspects of Classic EQ wouldn't work as they did if left to the dictates of "common sense". Finally, absence of evidence doesn't constitute evidence of absence, either. The fact that you have links which make no mention of a certain ability doesn't mean the ability didn't exist.

Hth, please stop bumping a repeat topic without any new evidence to justify new consideration.

[Nirgon]

There was an obvious change to the spell system which caused this spell for malfunction for a time. Both patch notes prove this.

These 2 patch notes conclude that not only did this spell system change take effect, but also that this spell was faulty for a time. Nothing about them can ever, in any way, be taken to indicate that these spells should have a dispellable recourse. Using this as evidence or using it to try to imply it was dispellable in classic only builds great strength in my argument that an exploit is being desperately defended.

Here's how this went:
You suggest that because of the patch note you linked, the spell could be dispelled up until the point that note is listed as "can once again dispel".

I then posted mine to make a proof against your defense by absurdity... that I clearly recall this spell's heal component working in classic but absolutely broke and required a fix as part of the spell system change. Why in my right mind would I ever try to say that this spell did not heal up until the date listed? To that same degree, why are you trying to do the same saying it should be dispellable? You are pinned here.

The broken heal and the non dispellable factor are both unintended and in no way reflect the classic time line, nor do they suggest anything in regards to how it worked on live vanilla through Velious.

Stop defending broken server mechanics : /. Something broke with the recourse mechanic as a result of a spell system change and was fixed.... not something went unnoticed until then. The patch note you are currently using as a defense means: its correct functionality was restored (the correct and classic mechanic -- it must hurt the necro!).

nor is your memory

My memory, apparently, is pretty damned good and I have proof of playing during this era =).

I've PM'd Zyrino (boards: Zyrin) here who won the Rallos Zek necromancer best of the best (and got pretty damned far against the overgeared bluebies) to drop his knowledge hard upon this thread. You can tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about instead, /popcorn.

[Daldolma]

More words to skim through, no evidence to evaluate. You also seem incapable of comprehending the difference between a patch note that includes the word "again" and one that does not. Your example refers to a reversion to a previous state, with Shadowbond "again" healing player characters. Neither of the other patch notes include any such language. It's not an appropriate parallel.

Please tell us all more about what you remember, it's fascinating. Surely a server of 1000+ pop should be responsive to your uncorroborated recollections.

[Nirgon]

I've disproved your attempt to make unrelated patch notes valid.

Check out my dispel thread if you've got such a memory of dispell mechanics =), I could use a hand!

[Daldolma]

They're clearly not unrelated as they address the topic in question. They are evidence that previous to the addressed patch, the Shadowbond spell line operated in the manner currently seen on Project 1999. You are making the totally unsupported claim that at some unidentified point prior to these patches, there was another change in gameplay (the appearance of recourse as a buff icon) that necessitated these later patches. You have not provided even a shred of evidence to suggest that any of what you say is accurate. As such, there's no reason for this issue to be discussed again.

If you want to dismiss the patch notes posted by Dentalplan and Koros as irrelevant, that's fine. That makes this entire thread a discussion of irrelevant patch notes and your irrelevant memory -- which means there is nothing to see here, and the thread should mercifully die.

[Nirgon]

So I can't point out something broken? And the project manager shouldn't be like "yep missed it!"?

You realize if it wasn't broken at any point during classic, there won't be patch notes. There's probably a number of other things that happened in development that should be obvious that they couldn't quite prove.

Maybe you can PM Zyrin and see what he thinks. I'd consider him to be a classic EQ necro guru. Not to mention on PvP servers, we were made or broken on our ability to dispel and know about game mechanics like these. We'd surely have tried to do something like dispel any visible recourse.

You guys came cluelessly running with these patch notes that are now disproven. Consider this along with the ones I've posted to show you that using these 2003 changes as a defense exposes what you're really trying to do here. You guys seemed pretty sure.. heh.

It's silly for this to be in the game right now, a 10 mana heal for 500 health.. yeah it was definitely like that in classic, sure, especially when Treats who also agrees with me recently had pick pocket fixes go in that no one else here seemed to recall. I've proved there's a spell system change and this spell was a mess and was fixed as a result, now that your champion patch notes have fallen, we result to "well there's nothing then keep it". Crazy.

[hijinks]

Greetings,

My pal Nirgon brought this to my attention few hours ago. Nice to see people still fighting the good fight.

Before I even give my opinion on this, although ya'll probably don't care I feel my history might persuade you into thinking I might know what I'm talking about.

I played on Rallos Zek for 3 years, 2 of them were playing the Necromancer class, from classic to well into Velious. Rallos Zek as you may or may not know, was a PvP server. Knowing and testing these kind of things meant life or death on that server. Furthermore, not only did I play on Rallos for 3 years, I also won the Necro Best of the Best on Rallos, and placed 3rd server-wide on test. Now, with that being established:

A necromancer COULD NOT I repeat, COULD NOT dispel this DEBUFF from their player character after they have the Pact line on a pet or PC. The very first time I saw this on Red99 I was truly like WTF, but was too lazy to even mention it.

I remember on many accounts thinking "wow let me try to dispel this, why even bother lifetapping a mob when I don't have to lose health to heal my pet by dispelling it?" NEVER WORKED. Not only that, but participating in a BotB with many other necros both on my server and the test server not once did anybody attempt this, because it did not work. And trust me when I say, if it did, people would have used it, because the very strat I used to win the tournament was to UNDEAD DD their pet, that strat would be nullified if they could pact their pet and dispell the debuff by losing 25 mana or whatever Pact+Dispel magic came out to be it just wasn't possible, at least on PvP servers. Another thing to further illustrate my point: One of the favorite items Necro's were after was the Holgresh Elder Beads, which was a right click Eye of Zomm or some shit like that you could cast on.. for the very purpose of Vexing (or Bonds of Death) this NPC clickly to get your health back from healing your pet, and other people. They would not have been so wanted by necros if Necros could just dispell the DEBUFF Pact of Shadow puts on the necro.

Hope that helps.

[Daldolma]

If anyone has facts through links feel free to post them. Just posting blocks of words from your memory won't cut it to argue.

For reference.

[Nirgon]

Hey look the necro who won the rallos zek best of the best (and who killed many many others) is telling you how it works

If they want to fix this? Fix. Otherwise, its a sad broken mess.


Greetings,

My pal Nirgon brought this to my attention few hours ago. Nice to see people still fighting the good fight.

Before I even give my opinion on this, although ya'll probably don't care I feel my history might persuade you into thinking I might know what I'm talking about.

I played on Rallos Zek for 3 years, 2 of them were playing the Necromancer class, from classic to well into Velious. Rallos Zek as you may or may not know, was a PvP server. Knowing and testing these kind of things meant life or death on that server. Furthermore, not only did I play on Rallos for 3 years, I also won the Necro Best of the Best on Rallos, and placed 3rd server-wide on test. Now, with that being established:

A necromancer COULD NOT I repeat, COULD NOT dispel this DEBUFF from their player character after they have the Pact line on a pet or PC. The very first time I saw this on Red99 I was truly like WTF, but was too lazy to even mention it.

I remember on many accounts thinking "wow let me try to dispel this, why even bother lifetapping a mob when I don't have to lose health to heal my pet by dispelling it?" NEVER WORKED. Not only that, but participating in a BotB with many other necros both on my server and the test server not once did anybody attempt this, because it did not work. And trust me when I say, if it did, people would have used it, because the very strat I used to win the tournament was to UNDEAD DD their pet, that strat would be nullified if they could pact their pet and dispell the debuff by losing 25 mana or whatever Pact+Dispel magic came out to be it just wasn't possible, at least on PvP servers. Another thing to further illustrate my point: One of the favorite items Necro's were after was the Holgresh Elder Beads, which was a right click Eye of Zomm or some shit like that you could cast on.. for the very purpose of Vexing (or Bonds of Death) this NPC clickly to get your health back from healing your pet, and other people. They would not have been so wanted by necros if Necros could just dispell the DEBUFF Pact of Shadow puts on the necro.

Hope that helps.

Pics from necro botb, Zyrino defs up in there doing work:
http://home.arcor.de/neric/BoTB%20Finals/



The prosecution rests its case.

[Treats]

Just so you guys know, doing the research on this stuff is absolutely fucking daunting.

It takes much more time than some of you that post your paragraphs of how you remember it.

Anyway here is what I have found:

Recourses were not added until this patch here where they revamped spell stacking etc:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020904.html

Shadowknight and Necromancer Drain type spells can now be clicked off by the recipient of the beneficial portion of the spell. For example; Shadowknights and their group members can now click off the effects of spells such as Torrent of Hate. While the target of spells such as Shadowbond can click it off if they so choose.

These types of spells were dispellable for some time, how long I do not know:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020605a.html

The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now from the beginning it is difficult to figure out how these types of spells actually worked.

There are no Recourses listed in either the Kunark or Velious spdat.

Going off of this it seems the spells used the same icons whether being positive or negative.

Example:

Necro casts Pact of Shadow on Cleric
Cleric receives Pact of Shadow icon on Buff bar (positive)
Necro receives Pact of Shadow icon on Buff bar (negative)

Shadow Vortex showing an icon in 1999:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.games.everquest/F3F5QTqIO08

Greetings. I recently hit level 20 and purchased this spell, but I've not
had much luck determining what it does. One thing that is apparent is that
its not a damaging spell. I was testing it out in E.Commons, and cast it on
a moss snake. The thing attacked me, and I watched its health (all 10
points of it), and its obvious this isn't a damaging spell. Also, a spell
icon appeared in the upper corner like a buff spell or something. Being its
a 20th level spell, I would expect it to do *something*.
Also, when I tried to cast it on myself it said "you can't drain
yourself!". Ok...if it doesn't drain heath, what *does* it drain?

I heard this too. Only curiousity...if its like just another offensive
spell, why does it leave a "buff" icon on your screen, which lasts about 2
minutes? Is this showing how long the spell effect is taking place? If so,
why is it still there after I kill the mob?

What is weird about this though is that Shadow Vortex was changed to a drain when Plane of Sky was released, 6 months after this post. Siphon Strength was also changed to stack with other buffs and debuffs. I could not find any information of a buff icon with Siphon Strength, only some people stating that it was permanent once it was cast:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.games.everquest/JnDyJE1SdRs

*Spell Changes*

- Shadow Vortex is now a "drain" spell.
- Siphon Strength will now stack with strength buffs and debuffs

Another comment here about Shadowbound overwriting SLN/SLK (on the recipient of course, not the Necro) so it was not a recourse. I assume it was overwriting because of the regen component on these two spells:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.games.everquest/qiz4uHww0dE

Shadowbond. Awesome heal. 660ish in 4 ticks. Too bad Verant cant code
jack shit and it overwrites SLN/SLK.

Conclusions

Two theories basically on how this worked.

FIRST

Any type of "DRAIN" would only give the buff icon to the player receiving the positive effects of the spell. There would be no way for this to be dispelled. This would explain why Shadow Vortex was giving an icon (was not a drain at the time of that post). However it does not explain why for some time the Shadowbond line of spells were dispellable. It could have been when they were testing the new spell system, I have no idea.

SECOND

Any type of spell with positive and negative effects for two different players would show icons for both. The spell icon on both players buff bars would be the same. Shadowbond would show "Shadowbond" on the player casted upon and "Shadowbond" on the Necromancer as well. There are no dispel lines in the spdat showing whether it could be or not. If it did work this way and showed a buff icon for the negative effects, I would assume it would have been dispelable if it was in the top slot because the spell has no Poison or Disease counters.

EDIT--

Another possible scenario:

Buff Icon is only shown for positive effects of the spell (This way they can be clicked off)

Necro casts Shadowbond
Cleric receives buff icon for positive effect
Necro receives no buff but still receives negative effects of spell

Necro casts Shadow Vortex
Necro receives buff icon for positive effect (AC)

[koros]

That's pretty much exactly how it was. If you got shadowbond cast on you, you received a 24 sec heal. if you were the necro who cast it, you sill got the shadowbond icon, which looked the same, but it took your hp.

if you got siphon strength cast on you, you got a several minute str debuff with that name, if you cast it on a target, you got the buff with +strength.

[Ambrotos]

I warned you all. Next time it won't be suspensions.

Make posts that links that back up your agreements/argument. Trolling each other to see who takes the bait won't cut it.

[Nirgon]

Backed off this thread due to Ambertis coming down hard on the discussion.

However, someone who won the Rallos necro botb came in this thread and posted commentary.

We're all also very well aware by now that the Luclin spell changes cropped up some bugs.

The necro heal over time line in classic shouldn't have its recourse effect on the caster as a dispellable effect.

Should be a quick fix.

[Silo69]

this gets fixed late vel...

deal with it

they should be fixing bards imho

same with the items that were known bugged or not "suppose to be" that got fixed, removed here like the call of bones cleric mask... developers are doing the right thing leaving stuff like this in game till its time for its due fix

again... deal with it, wont be fixed for over a year

[Nirgon]

this gets fixed late vel...

deal with it


Apparently Zyrino, who won many of the cross-server rounds of the necro best of the best, doesn't remember either. Yeah OK.

Deal with that :).

[Silo69]

i was in fires of heaven does that mean my word is law?

again late vel confirmed get over it its not game breaking like chanter charm

[Nirgon]

I don't see where you've confirmed it. I have someone with an arguably perfect understanding of necro mechanics and someone who employed a tactic VERY specific to this issue during multiple best of the best fights provide his commentary. Sounds legit to me and he isn't unsure at all. I watched the same event.

[Nirgon]

Bump

This is goofy and should be as easy as flagging the negative self effect as not dispellable

Thx!

[p-niner]

Isnt that 2002 patch on page 1 saying that it was dispellable up until 2002? Or did I read it wrong doc?

[koros]

Nirgon, I seriously remember having the recourse icon, using that weird looking HoT effect symbol using the original UI when I played my necro way way back when. You gotta dig up some more proof on this one.

It didn't say recourse, of course (that was Luclin), it just said the spells name.

[pasi]

Ignoring the dispel debate on this, but the recourse effect was also avoidable up until PoP by simply having full buff slots so the 'recourse' would not take hold.

[AexDestroy]

:D

[Nirgon]

Ignoring the dispel debate on this, but the recourse effect was also avoidable up until PoP by simply having full buff slots so the 'recourse' would not take hold.

You are correct sir but I'm not sure they can implement that on this client/current code base.

I'd add that as a separate bug but would put it in line more with something like item recharging on vendors (which I don't think should be in the game either but whateves).

I am being asked to provide proof for something that was never broken in the classic era. It always worked this way and was generally accepted.

Having someone who won (verifiably) the necro best of the best on live by using a tactic to win in which they pacted their pet and spammed undead nuke/drain or used ebolt (depending on who was up and had a general idea of how to run necro vs necro) feels to me like the most conclusive evidence attainable.

At NO point in any of those fights did tho necros dispel the recourse from themselves, because it was not possible.

Make Kanras can make it classic up in this.