Timesinks != difficult

[Arclanz]

Rather than hijack the wow thread, I wanted to expound.

Timesinks and inconveniences do indeed equal difficulty. What skill is required to overcome this difficulty? Perseverance. The same skill, it so happens, that, above all other skills, decides who becomes the CEO, the Doctor, the Lawyer, the Astronaut. A skill that the youth today are not learning. Is it coincidence that the number of people on welfare has also skyrocketed in recent times?

[lawll]

Rather than hijack the wow thread, I wanted to expound.

Timesinks and inconveniences do indeed equal difficulty. What skill is required to overcome this difficulty? Perseverance. The same skill, it so happens, that, above all other skills, decides who becomes the CEO, the Doctor, the Lawyer, the Astronaut. A skill that the youth today is not learning. Is it coincidence that the number of people on welfare has also skyrocketed in recent times?

Just because I need to run across the world to make it to the next city to turn in a quest item doesn't make it hard at all. Or just because I need to get my 50 raid members keyed for a new raid zone doesn't make it hard. It's just a pointless time sink to hold of progression.

[Tecmos Deception]

Just because I need to run across the world to make it to the next city to turn in a quest item doesn't make it hard at all. Or just because I need to get my 50 raid members keyed for a new raid zone doesn't make it hard. It's just a pointless time sink to hold of progression.

Tell the next marathon runner you meet that all the miles he/she ran in training were just a pointless time sink designed to hold off progression, then come back on here and let me know what he/she says about that.

[lawll]

Tell the next marathon runner you meet that all the miles he/she ran in training were just a pointless time sink designed to hold off progression, then come back on here and let me know what he/she says about that.

Lol progress to what a gold metal? Then that's just saying why fight bosses at all just give me the loot.

[subatis]

i don't think its the time sinks that make it difficult, directly. there's a couple pieces, here are examples...

1) death - you lose XP, and have to get your corpse. its not the time sink inherently that makes it hard, its the THREAT of dying (and the ease at which you can die) that makes EQ hard.

2) travel - No, going from one place to another isn't hard at level 50, but because of the threat of dying and having do it all over again, travel can be quite hard at low levels...and if you are so against the time sink, then get a port, its not difficult to do and requires that you (GASP!) talk to other people.

like others said in the wow thread, p1999 is a very niche hobby, and to me the allure is that the above 2 things (and others) make EQ very immersive. Being scared of death makes death feel more real than it does in wow or modern EQ, and therefore makes the whole experience more interesting/fun. Likewise, the long travel times at low levels make the world feel big, and give noobs a reason to stay in certain spots instead of trucking it to where everyone else is (like paludal caverns when luclin came out).

[Arclanz]

Tell the next marathon runner you meet that all the miles he/she ran in training were just a pointless time sink designed to hold off progression, then come back on here and let me know what he/she says about that.

This forum needs a Like button.

[Kualtek]

I believe the thing to understand here is that what everyone defines as an 'appropriate' timesink will vary from person to person, within a range. Too convenient and it won't feel like an accomplishment, too time consuming and it will feel like the game is artificially increasing the time required to complete something. All MMO developers are going to consider this when creating their games. It's impossible for them to create content as fast as their players will be able to consume it if they don't consider actual time to completion.

Your perspective on how timesink affects you is directly related to how much time you have to devote to the game. Blizzard looked at EQ1 and saw it's success, but knew that if they curtailed some of the timesink, their playerbase would increase dramatically. It's not the only reason they are successful, but it helps retain players in the long run who don't have a lot of time to play.

If Blizzard failed at a part of the timesink, it's that their timesink is completely game mechanics based, instead of part of the world. In EQ, rare mobs are not always available, which is a realistic assumption to consider. It also takes time and is dangerous to travel to some areas. In WoW, it's much easier to find every corner of the world that is interesting and complete the content, so they have developed systems like the 'badges' that you collect for doing instanced dungeons. This makes the game easier to play in small chunks, but loses a great deal of the immersion into the game.

[lawll]

I believe the thing to understand here is that what everyone defines as an 'appropriate' timesink will vary from person to person, within a range. Too convenient and it won't feel like an accomplishment, too time consuming and it will feel like the game is artificially increasing the time required to complete something. All MMO developers are going to consider this when creating their games. It's impossible for them to create content as fast as their players will be able to consume it if they don't consider actual time to completion.

Your perspective on how timesink affects you is directly related to how much time you have to devote to the game. Blizzard looked at EQ1 and saw it's success, but knew that if they curtailed some of the timesink, their playerbase would increase dramatically. It's not the only reason they are successful, but it helps retain players in the long run who don't have a lot of time to play.

If Blizzard failed at a part of the timesink, it's that their timesink is completely game mechanics based, instead of part of the world. In EQ, rare mobs are not always available, which is a realistic assumption to consider. It also takes time and is dangerous to travel to some areas. In WoW, it's much easier to find every corner of the world that is interesting and complete the content, so they have developed systems like the 'badges' that you collect for doing instanced dungeons. This makes the game easier to play in small chunks, but loses a great deal of the immersion into the game.

Who really wants to put 6-8 hours a day into a mmo to even feel like you did anything. That's why interest in EQ game model died out and everyone is copying what blizzard is doing.

[Houdiny]

This is a great debate. I often wondered what other people thought about "grinding" or what they consider difficult. In Vanguard there was a TON of grinding. And I mean a metric (you know what) ton. It separated the weak from the bold for sure.

In most MMO's you either have what it takes to do something or you don't. Whether it be level wise of gear wise. No amount of skill or hand eye coordination is going to let you kill Ambassador Dvinn at level 1. You need levels, gear, and skillups. All of which are required by grinding.

So in my opinion, yes grinding(timesinks) do indeed help determine a degree of difficulty. I'm not saying that one Enchanter can't be better than another at charming a mob and working over another mob better, or a necro being able to dungeon crawl faster or kill said mob more efficiently.

But a characters potential is his potential. He can't do more than the most he can do. It all depends on the player getting the most out of it.

[lawll]

This is a great debate. I often wondered what other people thought about "grinding" or what they consider difficult. In Vanguard there was a TON of grinding. And I mean a metric (you know what) ton. It separated the weak from the bold for sure.

In most MMO's you either have what it takes to do something or you don't. Whether it be level wise of gear wise. No amount of skill or hand eye coordination is going to let you kill Ambassador Dvinn at level 1. You need levels, gear, and skillups. All of which are required by grinding.

So in my opinion, yes grinding(timesinks) do indeed help determine a degree of difficulty. I'm not saying that one Enchanter can't be better than another at charming a mob and working over another mob better, or a necro being able to dungeon crawl faster or kill said mob more efficiently.

But a characters potential is his potential. He can't do more than the most he can do. It all depends on the player getting the most out of it.

Grinding isn't so bad when you find good ways to hide it but not straight in your face grind like EQ was.

[Houdiny]

Grinding isn't so bad when you find good ways to hide it but not straight in your face grind like EQ was.

This is very true. If there is an objective or a reason for grinding it does mask it some.

I myself enjoy grinding. I like sitting in a group with others chatting, interacting, having fun. I don't however like going from NPC to NPC loading up on quests and soloing/duoing my way ahead. I am not singling out any other mmo here this is the jist of exp'ing in every MMO it seems. And it just doesn't feel very MMO to me.

In EQ you worried about your reputation, you thought twice about double crossing someone, or another guild. Didn't always stop you but in the back of your mind you're always thinking is this going to ruin me in the long run, are my guildmates going to be upset, will they kick me?

There was consequences for the way you held yourself in EQ. Most guilds didn't recruit tools that had a bad rep for ninja looting or training people. And this is all credited to EQ being more personal than most other games these days are. It's spending those 5 hours in Solb that you get to know people.

[Houdiny]

Just because I need to run across the world to make it to the next city to turn in a quest item doesn't make it hard at all. Or just because I need to get my 50 raid members keyed for a new raid zone doesn't make it hard. It's just a pointless time sink to hold of progression.

Just wanting your opinion here. But give me some examples of when turning in a quest is hard. My MMO experiences are limited to a handful of games. So there could be something out there I don't have a clue about honestly. I have never really found a game "hard" yet. I don't PvP so putting that aspect of a game aside, none of them I have tried have been hard. You either know what to do or you don't is the consensus I get with MMO's. And the people that don't know there is youtube these days.

Once you know how something is done it instantly becomes trivial to me as far as MMO's are concerned. And this is no jab I am genuinely curious. Like raid encounters, none of it's hard. It's all button pushing or being in the right place to avoid something. Once you know it the encounter becomes easy.

[RahlaeRuffian]

I think having such huge time sinks for everything in EQ and P99 makes it a lot more rewarding for you as a player when you reach the upper echelon. I remember the first toon I had on live and the giddy feeling I would get when I got an upgrade at higher levels. The same can be said on this server. I'm not rich or anything on this server so grouping in Sebilis and having an RBG drop in one of my groups for the first time got my adrenaline pumping just rolling on the item. More modern MMORPGs lack that quality of excitement. Sure I've had fun playing the WoWs and Age of Conans but my greatest accomplishments in those games couldn't stand up those from EQ Live or even here.

[bluejam]

Who really wants to put 6-8 hours a day into a mmo to even feel like you did anything. That's why interest in EQ game model died out and everyone is copying what blizzard is doing.
this.

comparing any noteworthy real life achievement with gaining more pixels is just lol.

[Danyelle]

1. Perseverance is not a skill. It's something you're initially born with or were taught, yes. However it's almost like an instinct, but not quite. You work towards getting your ability to persevere up, yes. But it's not a talent, a skill, or anything that can be bunched up together like that. It can be equated to something like pain tolerance. Pain tolerance can also be worked on to get it up, but it is not a skill either.

2. You could be the most patient and persevering man/woman in the world and if you don't know how to run a business, hold a scalpel, or convince a jury, you're never going to become a CEO, a doctor, or a lawyer, respectively.

3. People on welfare has nothing to do with the topic. In fact bringing that up here would be akin to saying how much you like sports cars while your son is coming out of the closet to you, one has nothing to do with the other and it's introduction in the conversation is pointless. As a side note, that stems from economic struggles, despite what your middle/upper class white friends and you may think.

4. How often a runner runs is an attempt to work towards a skill or physical condition (like endurance) that is necessary to reach their goals. They are indeed persevering through the training necessary to reach that goal, but the perseverance itself is not necessarily related. Also, you cannot compare that to Everquest's timesinks as a whole. For example, the example given would best compare to someone spending time working on Tradeskills to get the skill level needed to make certain items they want or need. However comparing that to, say, running from one city to another to do a hand in (also a timesink) is completely different. Running to that city was not any form of training to make you better. It was a delay between receiving your last hand in item and giving it to Joe Blow in Qeynos. Simple as that.

5. Comparing the trials and tribulations of real life to the strains of life in a video game is asinine, as anyone with common sense would pick real life over the game pixels anyway. Again, to give an example, doing so is like comparing the pain of a broken toe to the pain of a limb amputation without anesthetics. Both of them are painful, just as real life and Everquest both have time sinks, but one is far more serious/painful (or important) than the other. Apples to oranges.

But please, continue. As I'm sure that this is mostly just a blind hatred of everything World of Warcraft just because you're a Classic Everquest player. Most replies will likely arrive from people who have never even played WoW. Only heard stories. Similar to the people that bash modern EQ when they stopped playing the minute Luclin dropped and saw that breasts were no longer triangles, rage quit, and haven't played since. Perfectly legitimate ways to formulate an opinion, especially one you will then deem necessary to claim is 'fact'.

[Anesthia]

Rainbowned.

/thread

[Arclanz]

Ooo some flamey replies. Apparently I hit a nerve. Too much fluff and b.s., though.

...comparing any noteworthy real life achievement with gaining more pixels is just lol.

If gaining pixels doesn't matter to you, why are you spending your limited supply of real life here.

... I don't however like going from NPC to NPC loading up on quests and soloing/duoing my way ahead. I am not singling out any other mmo here this is the jist of exp'ing in every MMO it seems. And it just doesn't feel very MMO to me...

I couldn't agree more. One reason I quickly lost interest in vanguard is how they whored out the quests. The game was so linear. It wasn't about exploration, and it should have been. It was about mindless constant clicking of tasks/quest NPCs; and rushing to the next station to complete them because that made up the bulk of your xp. It felt far more grindy to me than sitting at Derv 1 in North Ro for three hours. Only difference was no one (including me) had time to talk since we had to run to the next quest npc.

[Arclanz]

nt (let me address it in a post)

[Arclanz]

Dany your post is a bit verbose; hope you don't mind if I summarize

1. Perseverance is something you're initially born with or were taught, yes..
Arclanz: That sure sounds like a skill to me.

2. You could be the most patient and persevering man/woman in the world and if you don't know how to run a business, hold a scalpel, or convince a jury, you're never going to become a CEO, a doctor, or a lawyer, respectively.
Arclanz: And someone with a high IQ could end up a welfare citizen; who prefers to get handed things rather than do the life grind.

3. People on welfare has nothing to do with the topic...
Arclanz: Your opinion is noted.

As a side note, welfare stems from economic struggles, despite what your middle/upper class white friends and you may think.
Arclanz: Please spinoff a new topic and i will be happy to reply. I don't appreciate your assumption; it feels like an insult.

Arclanz: Regarding item 4, you lost me. Please rephrase, consicely if possible.

5. Comparing the trials and tribulations of real life to the strains of life in a video game is asinine...
Arclanz: As I mentioned before, if pixels are meaningless why are you spending your real life here.

But please, continue. As I'm sure that this is mostly just a blind hatred of everything World of Warcraft just because you're a Classic Everquest player.
Arclanz: This also feels insulting. Generally I've respected and appreciated your forum conduct but not in this case. I have slung no insults at WoW and haven't even mentioned the game in this thread.

[Anesthia]

Rather than hijack the wow thread, I wanted to expound.

Timesinks and inconveniences do indeed equal difficulty. What skill is required to overcome this difficulty? Perseverance. The same skill, it so happens, that, above all other skills, decides who becomes the CEO, the Doctor, the Lawyer, the Astronaut. A skill that the youth today are not learning. Is it coincidence that the number of people on welfare has also skyrocketed in recent times?

Students are taking out loans to pay increasingly higher tuition for substandard education at universities whose full-time staff members are being cut and replaced with cheaper, younger adjuncts.

Job creators are shipping factories to SE Asia in search of maximum profits and foaming at the mouth about high taxes because their tax refunds weren't as large as they would have liked. Caterpillar rams pay freezes and increased pensions down its workers' throats in times of record profits.

If you persevere in repeating something enough, it might become true without the need to refer to facts and evidence. Thanks for the talking point, Arclanz.

[godbox]

i read your post and then tried to ask my doctor about how he was going to poopsock the cancer in my colon.
Based on his reaction I think there might be some differences to being a doctor and being an mmo junky...

[theaetatus]

this.

comparing any noteworthy real life achievement with gaining more pixels is just lol.

I consider any sports-related achievement to be exactly as worthy as a video-game related achievement. Both are as pointless as each other.

The veneration of sportsmen and women is of far more worry than the number of people on welfare. Oh amazing, you can spend all day running and you can run fast, congratulations.

[Breeziyo]

I consider any sports-related achievement to be exactly as worthy as a video-game related achievement. Both are as pointless as each other.

The veneration of sportsmen and women is of far more worry than the number of people on welfare. Oh amazing, you can spend all day running and you can run fast, congratulations.

I think the veneration comes from seeing how far people can push their bodies in certain areas of athletics through vigorous training.

Pooping in your sock to get a chance at a specific item in a video game isn't so impressive.


Rainbowned.

/thread

http://imgur.com/8tdMl

[Cippofra]

in my personal opinion eq and wow are challenging in very different ways. even as a raid tank in kunark and velious nothing was ever nearly as difficult as some of wow's end game content. in wow you can find encounters when every single person in your group had to be perfect or you'd wipe. as a healer if i dropped the ball for half a second the tank goes down and we wipe in seconds. eq simply does not work like this. sure some things are frustrating, like corpse retrievals in end game content, or deep in dungeons like at myconid spore king, but the actual encounters are just rinse and repeat.

fact of the matter is, who cares? i play here because it brings back good memories. whether its that rare flawless group you get or grinding all alone for 2 days to get out of level 59. the things that drove me nuts when i was a 16 year old kid like 10 hour corpse retrievals or spending an hour to run somewhere only to be struck down by an undead cleric are simply amusing now and all part of a good experience that most of us miss

[lawll]

A good timesink has you interacting with the game on some level, earning some level of enjoyment or moving the story along. It might be “realistic”, but keep in mind that you are trying to entertain people here and useless timesinks tend to do the opposite of entertain.
—Matt Miller, MMODesigner.com

[theaetatus]

Spoken like a true untalented/nonathletic jelly sandwich.

So, my preference for intellectual pursuits over base athletic ones somehow makes me untalented?

I'd just rather look up to the rather unathletic Bertrand Russell, Socrates or Prousts of this world than the idiotic David Beckhams or Michael Johnsons... People who have achieved something more than just placing an object in a hole or over a line marginally better than the others.

[Houdiny]

I already pointed out why you're a tool in the WoW thread so I'll just add some small stuff here.

No, you're just a troll who got all butt hurt when someone started telling the truth about your beloved WoW


What is different in EQ than that, except that you don't hand in quests at the same rate? You still go around soloing/duoing/grinding. Its the same thing in the long run. Keep in mind, most games use the path to the max level almost like a tutorial to learn your class, hence getting spells throughout the levels, you know, like EQ.

The difference is interaction. People generally solo through these quests and miss the entire concept of an MMO. It basically becomes a single player RPG until they hit raid level.

There still is consequences and "reputation" on many other MMOs. I however, play video games for fun, I don't sit there sweating like a shook nerd wondering if someone will be mad at me. Its a damn game. You prefer to be the internet police, and generally people like you are compensating. Just saiyan.

Another troll attempt...so sad. I just prefer my MMO's to be more like MMO's. Sorry if this disappoints you.

How is farming the main room of unrest hard? Mobs spawn, you kill them. Rinse repeat. You keep admitting to having limited experiences, yet keep insisting on making comparisons. You also say things instantly becomes trivial once you've done something in MMO's, yet the other thread you keep saying how difficult EQ is. Oh boy...this guy...

Don't ever recall saying EQ was hard. In fact I said EQ was pretty easy. Once again you fail to read posts. Another annoying trait of the elusive troll. Now go back into your mom's basement and fire up the Atari

[Dirtnap]

The funniest part about this thread, and the wow thread, is that half the people can't accept people have different opinions. "This is fact because I said it's fact!"

It will help many of you out exponentially in life to realize that people will have different opinions than you, and that's OK. Different opinions help you to form your own opinion, unless you're an arrogant prick.

[Dirtnap]

Baiting in multiple topics isn't helping your point.

My opinion is that cars in 2016 will all suck, and cars from 1988 are better. I have no facts or experience with 2016 cars, however I'm right. Please don't call me out on this because I am very sensitive, thanks.

I am just offering my opinion on the matter of both threads. There are two opinions clashing in discussion, both have valid points, but only one opinion is blatantly telling the other its wrong.

Please, you don't have to play a game to have experience with it. You can watch any raid, from any game, on youtube. That is all the experience you need to form an opinion on a game.

[bluntfang]

Please, you don't have to play a game to have experience with it. You can watch any raid, from any game, on youtube. That is all the experience you need to form an opinion on a game.

lol

That's like saying you don't have to play a sport to have experience with it, you can just watch any play, from any game, on youtube. That is all the experience you need to form an opinion on a sport.

Replace "Play a sport" with "build a house" or "build a website"

Try to get a job by telling your potential employer that you've never built a website before, but you've seen a few of them so you're qualified to build one

[Dirtnap]

I will just go ahead and repeat what many others have said. You can't compare a game to real life. :rolleyes:

You don't have to play a sport to have experience with it. Do you think everyone who watches sports on TV has played the actual sport? No, they haven't. They have watched it enough to have experience with that sport however.

I took a carpentry class for 6 months, and you know what they had us do for the most part? Watch experienced carpenters work, so we could learn to work the right way. Most of my experience of carpentry comes from watching someone else work, and it has made me a better carpenter.

I don't think getting a job has anything to do with any of this. Can you elaborate why it's important to the subject?

To elaborate on my original point: I was never saying you can form an opinion of WoW in its entirety from a single video. I was talking about forming and opinion on WoWs raiding, or PVP, by watching videos of those events. Which is all the experience you need to make an informed decision on your opinion.

[Dirtnap]

Game Over yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh. So true.



Playing a sport, and watching a sport are far from the same thing. There is a reason ESPN typically employs players/coaches for analytical roles, and journalists/beat writers typically don't get the same level of respect.

If you ever played basketball, you'd understand more than just dunking and shooting. You'd understand defensive sets, rotations, reads, patterns, footwork, I can go on and on. Your casual fan who just watches generally won't know about any of that.



Carpentry involves copying/following directions/blueprints etc, and is a terrible example.



So you're saying, you'd trust a professional video game reviewer, who didn't actually play the game? The point of a video game is to play it. If you watch videos from EQ, do you even really have any idea whats truly going on if you've never played? Show an EQ raid video to someone who has never played EQ, and ask them what they think. I'm sure it'll be "Duhhh the graphics stink", because all the can see is graphics, they aren't experiencing gameplay.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/experience?s=t

I am just going to post this as my final response.

I am not going to argue with you what experience is.

[Dirtnap]

What experience is was never really up for debate in the actual definition sense. You failed as usual to address any points.

I'll ask again, So you're saying, you'd trust a professional video game reviewer, who didn't actually play the game?

What do you see in videos/screenshots of games? Graphics. That is all. (Ok ok SOME gameplay, but without playing its hard to grasp) If you reviewed EQ based on the eye test, every review would say it sucks. Is that fair?

These aren't movies we are talking about, they are video games that require input from a user/player. If you don't participate in the input, how do you know anything?

So what your saying is, we can't form an opinion on something unless we actually interact with it. That is just false. Yes, I would trust a review on a game, if someone hadn't actually played it. Observation is a valid way to experience something, and form an opinion on the subject.

Some things in games can't be experienced through video. But raid content, and instance content can be experienced through video. That was my entire point. Much of this discussion has been on easiness of content, and you can see how easy something is by observing it.

[lawll]

So what your saying is, we can't form an opinion on something unless we actually interact with it. That is just false. Yes, I would trust a review on a game, if someone hadn't actually played it. Observation is a valid way to experience something, and form an opinion on the subject.


Lol you would really listen to someones opinion on something they just observed!??! Fast food burgers look really good if you just observed one but have you ever tried one? Good luck with that mind set i'm sure it will really get you far in life.

[bluntfang]

So what your saying is, we can't form an opinion on something unless we actually interact with it.


No, what we're saying is that the opinion of someone who has enganged in the actual gameplay of a video game is worth exponentially more than someone who has just observed it. It's worth so much more, in fact, the the lesser opinion is extremely close to invalid when trying to compare it to another video game's gameplay

Here is an example of your opinion: You have an apple and an orange. You really, really, really like apples but you have never tried an orange. You say that apples taste better than oranges, because you don't like the color of the orange.

Here is an example of a valid opinion: You like apples better than oranges because there's less chance to bite into a seed when eating an apple.

[Houdiny]

Calling "troll" is basically waving a white flag in defeat. I can requote all of your posts and prove this quote of yours right here untrue if you'd like. (wow thread)

I don't think I came across as "butt hurt" as you say. You came into a POSITIVE thread and starting spewing hate for a game, and making comparisons to EQ, for what reason? Obviously to start a debate of some sort, or maybe you're the one trolling? Hmm...you also never respond to the points I make, you only try to play sensitive guy and insult me.



Let's be honest here. I read the thread entirely. When I seen someone comment that WoW raiding was much more complex than EQ I chimed in. Because the person that said that obviously didn't play EQ long enough to see it evolve, much the same way WoW did. And when I provided timeline facts that the two are simply incomparable thats when you started taking jabs, calling my posts stupid and me idiotic. You are the one who started to get personal.

This was the first post I made on that entire thread. And you took it as a personal attack against WoW and that I was a hater.

"Disagree with this. When WoW released it was pretty cut and dry just like EQ was. It wasn't like WoW released with all kinds of awesome raid content. I remember getting to max level and not having much to do when it released.

As I stated before...a lot of this WoW talk is due to the progression of MMO based games, not so much WoW in itself. EQ started getting some pretty tricky and sick raids along the way also. Doesn't mean it was necessarily better at any certain point in time.

I remember playing Anarchy Online which I do believe released before WoW. Had a ton of cool features. Links, item mods, etc. It was basically a flop of a game. Lot of those features later found their way into EQ and WoW.

Just because you seen it first in WoW doesn't mean it was the first to pioneer something."

No where in there did I say anything bad about WoW. Get over yourself. I'm done feeding the troll. You had like 8 total posts before all this started so you are obviously newer to project 99 then me or just a troll stirring up controversy.

[bluntfang]

When I seen someone comment that WoW raiding was much more complex than EQ I chimed in.

The whole point is that you don't know how complex WoW raiding is due to not experiencing it, thus your opinion is invalid.

[lawll]

The whole point is that you don't know how complex WoW raiding is due to not experiencing it, thus your opinion is invalid.

QFT

[Houdiny]

Go back and check the thread, you are exaggerating, which you do a lot. You chimed in starting the EQ vs WoW debate, and you have no experience with WoW raiding. You may have EQ experience, but how can you compare it to something you DON'T have experience with? That's my problem with your posts

And thank you! You just proved my ENTIRE POINT. The reason you and I even disagree on this is because of what tops said. Neither tops nor you have sufficient EQ raiding experience to back up your talk that WoW raiding is indeed tougher and more complex than EQ. All you guys have is experience much like me with WoW. Minimal AT BEST.

[Chokan]

I've played a shitload of MMO's and WoW is the only one I quit BEFORE max lvl because it was too EASY. I guess it doesn't help that I was coming from EQ1 though...

[lawll]

I've played a shitload of MMO's and WoW is the only one I quit BEFORE max lvl because it was too EASY. I guess it doesn't help that I was coming from EQ1 though...

You quit the game because you didn't have to put in more then 6 hours a day to get any progress?

[Houdiny]

You quit the game because you didn't have to put in more then 6 hours a day to get any progress?

I play less than 6 hours a day and progress just fine. It's not how much time you put in, it's what you do with that time.

[Houdiny]

So just to be clear here. We start a conversation about WoW on an EQ Emulator forum. It leaks over into multiple threads, being hijacked in it's purest form. And then we get all upset when comparisons are made between the two games?

[lawll]

I also love how people will say how complex EQ raiding did get after a while but they won't say how the game was rotting from the inside out at the same time.

[Houdiny]

Says the guy who hijacked the original thread.

Make your own topic called "EQ vs WOW" if that is what you really want, that was NOT the topic of the original post.

I wasn't the one that compared EQ to WoW. Tops was. Sorry try again.

[bluntfang]

So just to be clear here. We start a conversation about WoW on an EQ Emulator forum. It leaks over into multiple threads, being hijacked in it's purest form. And then we get all upset when comparisons are made between the two games?

Yet more posts from you that ignore content in order to attack people.

[Houdiny]

Yes, he was also responding to me and others. He said one simple line, and you made an essay out of it, which started the debate.

I find your logic pretty entertaining. Seeing as how you say I am starting a WoW vs EQ argument. When someone else compared the two games, and I am the one who said you can't compare the two it's like comparing apples and oranges. But whatever.

[bluntfang]

I find your logic pretty entertaining. Seeing as how you say I am starting a WoW vs EQ argument. When someone else compared the two games, and I am the one who said you can't compare the two it's like comparing apples and oranges. But whatever.

Still ignoring content in order to make personal attacks.

[Atmas]

Oh, cool there is a thread over here.

[lawll]

Oh, cool there is a thread over here.

Someone needs to reset atmas post count

[theaetatus]

That's cool and I respect you for that. However saying "idiotic" David Beckhams or Michael Johnsons (lol) just shows you are jealous/envious and a hater. You also fail to recognize professional athletes are required by contract (some do extra) to help out in communities, plenty make donations and help other causes as well. But you'd know this since you're so intellectual though I'm sure.

Athletes attain great health/fitness levels, name recognition, and lets not forget, money. Ask 100 people on the street if they know David Beckham, then ask if they know Bertrand Russel. Survey says...

That last point is the very source of the distress I mentioned. :P

It's not really being 'a hater', it is the truth... Have you ever heard either of those attempt to string a sentence together? One might as well look up to a thoroughbred horse for life guidance.

Our society idolises fools and abhors thinkers.

[bluntfang]

Our society idolises fools and abhors thinkers.

fools vs thinkers? Why are professional athletes considered fools? This is a dichotomy you created in your head in order to rationalize your failures within the bounds of modern American society.

[theaetatus]

To get slightly back on topic, I do not consider any of the three achievements you listed to be particularly notable. Fitness takes single-mindedness alone (not necessarily a good thing, a means rather than an end), celebrity status is vapid, usually fleeting and double-edged, and amassing money is hardly something to be seen as an ideal.

So that's why I see their achievements as worthless. As worthless as any of our video game achievements.

[theaetatus]

fools vs thinkers? Why are professional athletes considered fools? This is a dichotomy you created in your head in order to rationalize your failures within the bounds of modern American society.

Because, apart from a very small minority, they act, speak and behave as fools.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, etc...

Though my personal position is irrelevant, let's just say I'm not american and I am doing what I enjoy.

[bluntfang]

Because, apart from a very small minority, they act, speak and behave as fools.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, etc...

Though my personal position is irrelevant, let's just say I'm not american and I am doing what I enjoy.


hmm..

You don't need to insult athletes, especially since you don't know them, so how can you judge them based on random media coverage alone? Maybe they can't string together sentences because of nerves in front of a camera while being questioned, or because their PR people tell them what to say and what not to say. Every single word they spout gets coverage, anything that can be a story, WILL be a story. That's more nerve-wracking than performing at a sport you excel at.

[theaetatus]

P.S. The personal attacks betray your rather obvious trolling position, square. If you had stuck to some rational arguments you may have been a little less obvious. Please keep this in mind for future attempts.

[theaetatus]

nonathletic/untalented/lardo.

This part deems a response at least, as it rather illuminates your position. You equate talent with physical fitness again; do you consider someone that runs from A to B 0.1 second faster than 10,000 other people doing the same more talented than, for instance, someone who can put forward new philosophical or scientific theories?

Is 'talent' where you're from purely a physical thing?

[bluntfang]

This part deems a response at least, as it rather illuminates your position. You equate talent with physical fitness again; do you consider someone that runs from A to B 0.1 second faster than 10,000 other people doing the same more talented than, for instance, someone who can put forward new philosophical or scientific theories?

Is 'talent' where you're from purely a physical thing?

why do you never attempt to address the full content of his post, yet nitpick at things that he probably got right about you personally? At least square can insult you while making coherent and relevant arguments at the same time.

It's ok though, most fools have trouble double tasking.

[theaetatus]

Why do you sensitive internet rejects (or socrates wannabes) feel the need to say everyone is a troll? Its a cop out. You have no response, so I'm trolling. K.

I have responded to each of your points so far.

What marks you out as a troll is your immediate resort to personal attacks to try to provoke me. This suggests you are either trolling or hold a grudge against me. As I don't believe we have met before, the former would be the obvious conclusion.

If you don't want to be perceived as a troll, don't act like one. Try omitting the last paragraph of your posts so far and you'll see a marked improvement.

[theaetatus]

That person who runs that .1 second faster would get tons of recognition, sponsorships, money etc. Ever hear of the Olympics? I guess they don't matter either.

New philosophical or scientific theories. Hmm...Do these theories help me during my every day life? Do they provide me entertainment? Will they change my life in any way over the course of my life? Sorry buddy. Stop being a hater.

Edit: Also another thing that cracked me up: You have a problem with modern western society, yet you claim not to be from over here in the first place. I don't think I need to point out the flaws in that. All you get is a: lol

See my previous post, I already explained I don't place much value in those things.

To suggest that new theories don't change your everyday life seems rather odd when you are apparently using a computer, and probably enjoy such things as electric light, fresh running water, central heating, etc ad infinitum.

As for the edit... There are scarcely enough facepalm gifs in the world to express my reaction. The US does not equate to 'western society', it is in fact only a very recent addition to it.

[theaetatus]

why do you never attempt to address the full content of his post, yet nitpick at things that he probably got right about you personally? At least square can insult you while making coherent and relevant arguments at the same time.

It's ok though, most fools have trouble double tasking.

Ok then, what have I not adequately addressed?

I wasn't nitpicking, I was asking square an honest question based on what he was apparently suggesting. Is 'talent' over there seen as something only present in physical activity, and if not, why imply that?

[theaetatus]

P.S. No, he didn't manage to make any correct assumptions other than that I didn't enjoy sports, which is probably rather obvious. ;)

[theaetatus]

You made your points, people like Socrates (who most people most likly don't know or care about) are so great, and people like David Beckham suck. Ok we get it. Back to your dirt farm.

Well at least it sunk in eventually, even if in a mostly misunderstood manner. I'll settle for that. :)

[theaetatus]

And about the edit, I was just making a random point about you claiming not to even live over here, yet judging it. You wouldn't last a day here, trust me.


I'll spell it out, though I thought I had already.. The US is a small part of Western Society. I do not live in the US, though I live in a very similar country of roughly equal levels of danger. ;) I am sure it is a very scary place indeed.

[bluntfang]

The US is a small part of Western Society.

thread over 0/10

[theaetatus]

That logic blows my mind. :)

EDIT: That was to square.

As for bluntfang... Consider how long 'Western Society' has been around, or the amount of people involved in it. Try to think beyond the classic US stereotypical view of the world. I have faith in you.

[lawll]

Our society idolises fools and abhors thinkers.

Thanks for this comment and derailing the thread.

[Messianic]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/002/763/invalid.jpg

[Strifer]

I'll spell it out, though I thought I had already.. The US is a small part of Western Society. I do not live in the US, though I live in a very similar country of roughly equal levels of danger. ;) I am sure it is a very scary place indeed.

http://i.imgur.com/NXV1u.gif

[Breeziyo]

http://i.imgur.com/NXV1u.gif

http://i.imgur.com/79e9o.gif

[choklo]

I've heard it said by gamers that EQ is for masochists. I'm a little disturbed by this statement, because EQ is my first love for MMO's.

[Arclanz]

I've never seen a bigger collection of trolls in a thread. Think it's time to use my regular sig. Thanks to the few individuals who posted their honest opinion, even if it differed from mine. Surprised to see some obviously good people continously feed the trolls in this thread. Cheers.

[SuperSane]

That person who runs that .1 second faster would get tons of recognition, sponsorships, money etc. Ever hear of the Olympics? I guess they don't matter either.

New philosophical or scientific theories. Hmm...Do these theories help me during my every day life? Do they provide me entertainment? Will they change my life in any way over the course of my life? Sorry buddy. Stop being a hater.

Edit: Also another thing that cracked me up: You have a problem with modern western society, yet you claim not to be from over here in the first place. I don't think I need to point out the flaws in that. All you get is a: lol

It would behoove you to read the entirety of The New York Times (nytimes.com) every day for a year. I urge you to learn about NASA's contributions to modern technology.

Furthermore, read about the entire last centuries worth of physics, starting with general relativity and quantum mechanics, and the incredible technology that resulted from this (initially, and periodically) purely mathematical and theoretical work.

After gaining a requisite knowledge of recent scientific advancements, feel free to browse all of the new peer-reviewed scientific papers.

TED is a great way to learn about how new scientific developments (or have affected) affect tens of millions of people across the world.

I offer you these suggestions after noting the (almost unbelievable) ignorance staining your post.

As an aside, it seems an unfortunate effect of a timesink that a player Can become incredibly ignorant of almost anything besides the games he/she plays.

[runlvlzero]

MMO time sinks require no skill, just maturity, maturity a 12 year old "should" have. All other analogies are fairly less relevant.

Skill is usually defined by the efficiency and quality rather then quantity and measure of something.

i.e. It takes skill to create an awesome 32x32 texture that looks good at high rez. It does not take skill to crank out 200 photos crop them quickly and call them textures, though it may take more time then that single good texture. MMO's are far more the latter. Not exclusively, but pretty much so.

I play EQ for the social aspect, its why I don't play WoW. If you want true skill with a limited and fast paced rule-set go master classic Team Fortress.

For those that need it really spelled out, skill, and time, are seperate variables, not correlated with eachother.

Also to those attributing marathon runners to skill. That is a physical attribute built up over time. The mental discipline required to attain that level of physical stamina could be considered a skill, but the ability to run in itself is not really a skill. Though it may fall into the grey area. It is correct that it usually takes time to learn or develop a skill. However that time invested is not really a measure of skill, again simply maturity, usually. Those people who can poopsock 20 hr camps are very mature in someways, but then again they lack other forms of maturity or mental attributes. They are not highly skilled individuals. Its an easy skill to aquire ;p

/thread

[SuperSane]

Don't read the new york times, don't want to. I read bloomberg sometimes that's about it. I don't care. Know why? I have/make plenty of money, and am fine with the way I am, and don't hate on people for what they have.

You're on a video game forum, acting all intellectual and high and mighty isn't going to make you look like any more than an angry basement dwelling 40+ year old hater.

People have different interests and hobbies, deal with it, don't hate on it. Get money.

You asked: "Do these theories [scientific] help me during my every day life? Do they provide me entertainment? Will they change my life in any way over the course of my life?"

The answer is yes, they do.

[runlvlzero]

Ohai... I just read about NASA being a wealth of scientific knowledge, sure from 40 years ago, they have not challenged any theories that the draconian lizard people have set forth since the days of Kennedy. There are better sources of information then NASA and the NYTimes. Wait, they do all the time, but they never publish. Chandra, GRAIL, and many other cool experiments but they are always forgotten, ignored, and obfuscated.

Try reading a textbook or something, or figuring out how to travel to the moon using math yourself. Never know you might just realize a better way to do it.

[bluntfang]

MMO time sinks require no skill, just maturity, maturity a 12 year old "should" have. All other analogies are fairly less relevant.

Skill is usually defined by the efficiency and quality rather then quantity and measure of something.

i.e. It takes skill to create an awesome 32x32 texture that looks good at high rez. It does not take skill to crank out 200 photos crop them quickly and call them textures, though it may take more time then that single good texture. MMO's are far more the latter. Not exclusively, but pretty much so.

I play EQ for the social aspect, its why I don't play WoW. If you want true skill with a limited and fast paced rule-set go master classic Team Fortress.

For those that need it really spelled out, skill, and time, are seperate variables, not correlated with eachother.

Also to those attributing marathon runners to skill. That is a physical attribute built up over time. The mental discipline required to attain that level of physical stamina could be considered a skill, but the ability to run in itself is not really a skill. Though it may fall into the grey area. It is correct that it usually takes time to learn or develop a skill. However that time invested is not really a measure of skill, again simply maturity, usually. Those people who can poopsock 20 hr camps are very mature in someways, but then again they lack other forms of maturity or mental attributes. They are not highly skilled individuals. Its an easy skill to aquire ;p

/thread

I agree with everything except running not being a skill. There is a correct way to run in order to improve efficiency and quality, including reducing energy used, reducing injury, improving speed, ect. This is especially important when, historically, a non-trivial amount of races have been won by 1/10ths of a second.

[Buefurd]

The funniest part about this thread, and the wow thread, is that half the people can't accept people have different opinions. "This is fact because I said it's fact!"

It will help many of you out exponentially in life to realize that people will have different opinions than you, and that's OK. Different opinions help you to form your own opinion, unless you're an arrogant prick.

QFT

..square...lol

[Atmas]

..sensitive nerd...lol

I never had a problem with an opinion, I have problems with uneducated opinions, and haters. The problem is, since classic EQ is so old, this forum is filled with 40+ year old men who think they police the internet, and get all bent out of shape when someone doesn't coddle them.

I also enjoy being arrogant, having achieved great success in life makes some people behave as such, mirin?

You are like the personification of irony. You cry about every post that disagrees with you and sling 2nd grade insults. If great success is having nothing better to do than trolling all day, you have indeed arrived.

[Maybach 2.0]

..sensitive nerd...lol

I never had a problem with an opinion, I have problems with uneducated opinions, and haters. The problem is, since classic EQ is so old, this forum is filled with 40+ year old men who think they police the internet, and get all bent out of shape when someone doesn't coddle them.

I also enjoy being arrogant, having achieved great success in life makes some people behave as such, mirin?

Houdiny is a cool dude, thusly making you likely a retard for dedicating a sig to him. Most people who play this box I've ever encountered are 20-30. But go ahead and express your opinion as fact while you argue people expressing their opinions doesn't make it fact.

[azeth]

Houdiny is a cool dude, thusly making you likely a retard for dedicating a sig to him. Most people who play this box I've ever encountered are 20-30. But go ahead and express your opinion as fact while you argue people expressing their opinions doesn't make it fact.

yo maybach, rick ross is a certified fraud.

[Atmas]

You're just mad I proved you had no WoW experience, and you acted like you did. Game over. Stick to PMs if you want to keep speaking right to me broseph I was fine with that before.


You proved that you stick your head in the sand when ever someone provides evidence that you are wrong. It's an obviously flawed idea to take a stance on something you can't prove, but it just gets kind of sad when there is a link showing you are wrong but you keep trying to argue. Also you proved that vast majority of your WoW raiding is Baradin Hold (Vault 2.0). Admittedly, it's the most available raid that people will do each week but it looks as though you did little besides it.

[Atmas]

You're just mad I proved you had no WoW experience


Evidence I was wrong? You mean your armory showing you've almost never raided in WoW? k.


I have no WoW experience but you admit I have an armory showing I do. Yeah that makes a lot of sense...

I could just leave it at that but I guess I can also point out that the armory I linked is inactive because as I said I quit over a year ago. Pretending that you know my WoW history just affirms that you create your own reality to win arguments in your head.

I'm not really sure what the point of the "come@me" was because my "no raids" is more than you listed and probably more raiding than you have done there. You could have just admitted you spent most of your time PvPing and only did the non PvP raids a handful of times, but I guess you feel a need to be an expert on everything and "hard" on the interwebs.

[Maybach 2.0]

yo maybach, rick ross is a certified fraud.

lol white people. Welcome to 3 years ago?

[Buefurd]

And I'm sorry I should of said "Raid" experience, not WoW experience, oh gee gosh, find any little thing you can. Fattapotomus.

Should "have" said, Mr. successful.

[theaetatus]

Video game forum. Smart phone. Multi-tasking. Comp sci.


Not that it's much of a big deal, but those are all pretty terrible excuses for a very basic grammar mistake. Smart phone? Hah.

[Dirtnap]

The fact you and your buddy have to fall back on minor errors like that on a video game forum shows a lot. Yes I type all of my posts from an IPhone so I generally type quick and don't reread them unless I add to it. You, bue, and atmas also seem to have a fat guy nerd hard-on for me. I'm sorry if I've upset you with my posts, believe me when I say you'll get over them, but please hop off my lap, friend. Thanks. ;)

The trollish tone of your posts is cute. ;)

[theaetatus]

The fact you and your buddy have to fall back on minor errors like that on a video game forum shows a lot. Yes I type all of my posts from an IPhone so I generally type quick and don't reread them unless I add to it. You, bue, and atmas also seem to have a fat guy nerd hard-on for me. I'm sorry if I've upset you with my posts, believe me when I say you'll get over them, but please hop off my lap, friend. Thanks. ;)

Actually I didn't point out the minor errors, nor would I have. I was pointing out your terrible excuses... You are very defensive for a troll. Your obsession with weight also appears to be a classic complex. ;)

[Messianic]

There's probably a really good butthurt dweller meme for this thread.

[theaetatus]

Do you really need to address me directly in posts AND in PMs?
And the "weight obsession", well, I'll refer you to my sig.

Well, when you send me PMs I reply to them. Don't try to make it look like I'm the one doing the pestering. ;)

And yes, I was in part referring to your sig.

[Dirtnap]

I don't recall being owned. I do however recall you totally missing my entire point. You're still missing it.