Where did WoW go right? [Archive]

nilbog

08-17-2012, 03:22 AM

I never played WoW, but I can't deny it's success. Many of my former EQ friends left for WoW, but the real problem was that they never came back. How did WoW maintain it's dominance all these years, while so many other games faded away? What have we learned about MMO's in the process? What type of game could replace WoW?

My opinion is that it was the best game available at the perfect time.

I played the WoW beta in 2004. Everquest released Omens of War in September 2004. Then WoW released in November 2004. I was a hardcore EQ player until that time. At first, I kept logging into EQ, but my desire steadily faded away due to raid sizes and the saturation of design. I play games other than mmorpgs; notably fps and rts. Doom3 and CS:Source released in 2004... woohoo. There were no other games in the mmorpg genre that could come close to competing with WoW.

Why it maintained its dominance is a good question. I have no idea. After completing the worthwhile parts of Burning Legion, I felt there was nothing to do. I lead a pvp guild on Burning Legion and I really enjoyed world pvp and original battleground*/s*. Zone line queue for AV then compete in the Southshore vs Tarren Mill battles. Then there was introduction of resource and ctf pvp maps, :T. I quit for a while. Shortly after, I rejoined due to my girlfriend playing and stayed throughout Burning Crusade. Thennn, I started Vanguard in like 2007.

WoW was easy to begin with. Then is was made more comfortable. Then it was made way too easy. When mentioned in sitcom dialogue, it was trendy. My only guess as to why so many people still play is that it was/is the flagship of friendly mmorpgs. If I had to guess, the majority of wow players don't leave for other games; they take a hiatus from mmorpgs. Unless trying games of the EQ era, I'm not sure what all these people are doing because there's certainly nothing on the horizon (that I'm aware of).

As far as what have we learned about mmorpgs since WoW.. the answer is subjective to the person. I learned that I don't want everything handed to me on a silver platter. I do want a lot of other people to play with. I do want more player to player interaction and less automation. I do want pvp, optional or not. I don't like instances in any fashion I've seen implemented that weren't created due to population vs. design caps. WoW created a distinct terminology in mmorpgs up to the point where something can be considered "wow-like".

What type of game could replace WoW? A different game of the same type, but likely a game of the same type that was as different as vanilla WoW was to post-PoP EQ. And make sure it has a lot of content.

I played Vanguard until I missed classic EQ. I could go on for paragraphs about why Vanguard wasn't sustainable, but I digress. A few google searches later, I was playing some of the servers in the eqemulator community. Since that time, there hasn't been a new mmorpg worth playing for longer than a month, imo.

Kevlar

08-17-2012, 03:46 AM

WoW appeals to 12 year olds and for some reason millions upon millions of orientals. It is way too generic and watered down for my taste.

Breeziyo

08-17-2012, 03:47 AM

I want to point out that so far the posts have both talked about vanilla wow and not really the expansions.

For me personally the game was ruined after Burning Crusade. World PvP disappeared, the addition of Deathknights being incredibly overpowered, gear having thousands of a stat/hp/mana/spell power etc. Vanilla wow was a lot like EQ except you could solo pretty easily if you wanted to but there was still a drive to group to do instances and you still had to travel to do it. These days you just que and instantly travel to dungeons and are deposited right where you left. You never have to leave town to do anything.

E: As to why it's successful you can just read the last couple of sentences of the above paragraph and insert "people are lazy."

Pretty much this. WoW became a PoS after TBC / WotLK depending on who you talk to, but I feel like WotLK lovers would be lying if they said the expansion wasn't the beginning of a slippery slope. Like EQ they didn't stay true to what made people really love the game in the first place and would rather think of ways to make more money. I mean it's their job to make a lot of money, but it sucks how they're going about it.

Now a lot of people view it as a really crappy game on an amazing game engine, so other games can't really compare because the bar is set so high.

poofph

08-17-2012, 03:53 AM

instant gratification

Lubian

08-17-2012, 04:00 AM

It would probably be easy to write a book on why WoW has been so successful over the other MMOs.

There's no one sole reason why it's successful, but rather a huge combination of reasons.

I guess I'll jump on that on the EQ boards, WoW is misinterpreted as too easy, while realistically the developers have really just removed parts of the game that many players did not enjoy.

For example, in EQ buffing is a chore, especially on P99. Do the buffs need to have a long cast time? No. Do they need to significantly increase your downtime, because of the mana cost? No. Do they need to have so short of a duration, you spend a large amount of time refreshing them? No.

Many things in EQ aren't difficult, as some of you may be led to believe, but rather are just chores in the game. Solo killing a creature and waiting for your mana to return isn't difficult; it's just unneedlessly long and painstaking. Auto attacking and hitting a button on a monk isn't difficult.

There are hundreds of poorly implemented systems on EQ that are like this, that didn't really have much thought put into them.

Feachie

08-17-2012, 04:01 AM

Messianic

08-17-2012, 04:56 AM

WoW was able to harness the fan following of every single blizzard line (starcraft, warcraft, diablo) with an already established storyline/lore coupled with a massively renovated interface engine from EQ. Perfect place, perfect time, no real competition came out until it was too late.

WoW Vanilla/BC-ish is probably the best mmo that has ever existed and the best that will exist for a while. I think if someone had really gotten the LotR thing going before WoW with the same dynamic interface engine and combat system, it might have been nearly as successful.

tops419

08-17-2012, 05:22 AM

does anyone know if there is a classic WoW server live anywhere with a decent population? maybe something similar to the P1999 community? I think I'd be all over that, atleast for a while.

Breeziyo

08-17-2012, 05:43 AM

does anyone know if there is a classic WoW server live anywhere with a decent population? maybe something similar to the P1999 community? I think I'd be all over that, atleast for a while.

You'll have to torrent a client specifically for the private servers, but yes there are a few. Wow-one is one that I've played and it's pretty decent. Very large russian presence there, but the majority of players speak english. Alterac Valley is for the most part broken unless they've recently fixed it as well, that's pretty much why I quit.

Messianic

08-17-2012, 07:07 AM

does anyone know if there is a classic WoW server live anywhere with a decent population? maybe something similar to the P1999 community? I think I'd be all over that, atleast for a while.

Molten Wow isn't classic, but it's a great set of servers. Community is kind of meh - not horrible, not great though. Nothing like p99 in terms of community.

But I think Molten wow is it if you want emulated WoW with a decent population.

falkun

08-17-2012, 08:13 AM

These comments are mostly about Burning Crusade.

WoW (originally) shifted group responsibility to more members of the party. Mages could only CC 1 mob, pretty much every class could only CC 1 mob, so most classes had to help out. Pulls could not be trivialized with lull/FD mechanics. In EQ, a good puller and/or CC could make a decent group amazing.

Karazhan was a fucking amazing instance with great scripts, even if you were overgeared it was still a fun way to screw away 3 hours with friends.

Encounters were more than tank+spank.

Skills were tuned to not be overpowered (or more balanced than a 30 second root) for PVP. More chess-like and less like checkers.

You had multiple classes that could fulfill multiple rolls (sufficiently), yet very differently, a lot less "no cleric, no group".

Multiple, distinct armor looks. No more obtaining plate and seeing the SAME graphic for the entirety of your character's existence.

They made "the grind" a bit more exciting by having quests to do. Now you had a reason to go slay those large_rats for an hour, you needed 4 whiskers for Jaina's stew.

Heroics were originally heroic. You needed some gear, or at least some above-average skill, to do heroics, and they had entrance requirements (faction farming). Decent carrot on a stick mechanic.

But there's a whole list of things they did wrong or too much of while doing all this right, but that's another thread.

Aceofcups

08-17-2012, 08:53 AM

I think falkun nailed alot of it.

I personally loved Karazhan and the BC era. However even at the start i disliked how much easier it was than EQ. And every expansion only seemed to make it easier.

Also i really wish WoW hadn't jumped numbers so largely each expac.
Some friends want me to come back and i glance at the game and see +100 sta, on some random ring...which used to be what my old BiS BC pants had enchants/gems decked out...

Edit: On a side note, i'd go back to WoW in under 15secs if they released progressional servers like EQ did.

Deddar

08-17-2012, 10:00 AM

Funny people mentioned vanilla wow progression servers and lone behold they are starting a brand new one on AUG 25th that will be very close to how wow was when it was released. Its called Emerald Dream which will be run on Feenix Server Project. I found the info over at wow-one so go check it out for yourself!

http://www.wow-one.com/forum/topic/26805-enter-the-emerald-dream/

lawll

08-17-2012, 10:06 AM

Breeziyo

08-17-2012, 10:17 AM

"Where did WoW go right?"

*posts negative stuff about wow like an angry mouth breather*

It went right by attracting a crowd outside of the norm. Not everyone wants to sit around camping an item you MIGHT get for 10 hours, or looking for a group for 8 hours straight. People have lives outside of games, and the WoW MMO genre gave people a pick up and play style MMO instead of a deep time invested one.

The disgruntled veterans of the game always like to keep the positives in check whenever the game is talked about.

Atmas

08-17-2012, 10:54 AM

I think Falkun is spot on with most of his post.

As far as its initial and continued success I would attribute that to a combination of design and being in the right place at the right time.

Timewise, they lucked out tremendously with arriving when the MMO scene was still fairly sparse but broad band had recently become more widespread. In all honesty I dont remember much advertising for EQ in general. A lot of people who had never played MUDs, MMOs, or Tabletop games were introduced to the concepts of gear and leveling through WoW. Lets be honest, most gamers love the sense of achievement, and WoW was good at giving it to them.

After playing many MMOs over the years now I have never seen a MMO so completely polished as WoW was when it launched. They also added a lot of features that most people now expect to be in a game, things like an auction house. Basically they raised the bar for what is expected as a starting point so high that most other dev teams run out of money before being able to get their product to a competing level.

I loved Vanilla WoW, didn't really like TBC, and once again greatly enjoyed WoTLK. Through all that though I always felt like the game was well made. I played it on and off again until Cata, over the years they have dumbed the game down a lot and melded the classes way too much.

Oh and I guess I have to mention PvP. I played Tallon Zek on live and for the most part enjoyed PvP but it was kind of obvious that in EQ PvP was an after thought. WoW made it a lot more dynamic and interesting.

Xadion

08-17-2012, 11:07 AM

Honestly I loved vanilla WoW- the PVP was fun, the world PVP server I was on was great and PVP actually built community as the level-uppers made friends with higher ups to come and beat down corpse campers etc- 40man raids still felt kinda RAID LIKE coming from EQs 72mans... IMO WoW did it 90% right from the start...then the pandering started in BC and blah

Lagaidh

08-17-2012, 12:25 PM

I played Beta and since I was still heavily invested in EQ at the time, I didn't give it my fairest appraisal. I didn't like it. I hated their interpretation of both dwarves (my EQ race) and paladins (my EQ class).

When I'd finally given up on EQ, I went to WoW to be with some old EQ friends. I found my niche as a cow hunter. Hunters get a bad rap, and I understand why. A lot of "lol EZ mode" players gravitate towards the class kind of like the ubiquitous Iksar Monk. Lol ninja lol lizerdmang! /sigh

I thoroughly enjoyed WoW through Wrath of the Lich King. I'd run out of content... even as a casual I'd done many of the WoTLK raids and either had BiS or nearly so... I stopped playing because it didn't hold my interest as much. I'd gotten a good 3 solid years from the game so I considered that good enough.

I bought Cataclysm. Installed. They completely changed how my class works. Entirely. They took away some of my favorite skills. When there's that much of an overhaul, I have no desire to relearn how to play a class that is already a hop, skip and a jump away from the new maximum level. From my eyes, I see that as a middle finger to someone that's been paying to play for years.

I haven't looked back.

Luckily... I found p99 soon thereafter. =)

One thing I always thought Blizzard got right in WoW was environment charm. Nothing ever seems tacked on. If you are going through the woods and there's an old pillar or spot of worship... it often has no purpose other than to flavor that area. The game world IS a character and I've always thought that is great.

I do miss flying.

falkun

08-17-2012, 12:45 PM

One thing I always thought Blizzard got right in WoW was environment charm. Nothing ever seems tacked on. If you are going through the woods and there's an old pillar or spot of worship... it often has no purpose other than to flavor that area. The game world IS a character and I've always thought that is great.

I have to completely disagree, especially in the newer areas. 99% of the time, I feel everything in WoW is staged and there is not a natural flow to environment. For quests, you always know where to go because the terrain is outlined by the area the quest is in. For instance, the shallow water pond things on that Western-most newbie zone in WOTLK. Those ponds define quest boundaries, and they're surrounded by that area with the trappers that just looks shoved into the zone.

In contrast, EQ zones seem much more free. Inns in the middle of the Commonlands, deserted buildings from a long-forgotten empire and a massive staircase in Emerald Jungle.

I will agree that I love the environment design in WoW, that dwarf resevoire and dam (i think they destroyed the dam in Cata) is awe-inspiring. The bridge halfway through Azeroth near Dun Modr, the gates of Stormwind.

Barkingturtle

08-17-2012, 12:49 PM

What WoW did well is that they shipped with and maintain to this day a very low barrier to entry. Even a non-gamer can pick the game up and play it and--even more importantly--they can do so on an eight year-old PC.

When WoW came out, it's immediate competition was EQ2. I still can't play EQ2 on max settings.

Breeziyo

08-17-2012, 01:37 PM

When WoW came out, it's immediate competition was EQ2. I still can't play EQ2 on max settings.

Yeah, what the hell is up with that? I've got a pretty current machine and it still struggles, but usually only if I decide to turn the shadows on.

tops419

08-17-2012, 01:59 PM

Lagaidh

08-17-2012, 02:50 PM

I have to completely disagree, especially in the newer areas. 99% of the time, I feel everything in WoW is staged and there is not a natural flow to environment. For quests, you always know where to go because the terrain is outlined by the area the quest is in. For instance, the shallow water pond things on that Western-most newbie zone in WOTLK. Those ponds define quest boundaries, and they're surrounded by that area with the trappers that just looks shoved into the zone.

In contrast, EQ zones seem much more free. Inns in the middle of the Commonlands, deserted buildings from a long-forgotten empire and a massive staircase in Emerald Jungle.

I will agree that I love the environment design in WoW, that dwarf resevoire and dam (i think they destroyed the dam in Cata) is awe-inspiring. The bridge halfway through Azeroth near Dun Modr, the gates of Stormwind.

Maybe I didn't describe what I mean well enough. I wasn't thinking so much of flow from one place to the next as discreet little touches that were obviously thought about by the creators. Something that isn't an obvious rubber stamp of something else.

One zone may have a little pond tucked away that has no purpose unless you wanted to fish in it or swim. I liked those little things.

choklo

08-17-2012, 08:11 PM

Some things that stuck out about early EQ that were fixed in WoW:
1) Embedded time sinks. The long cast times, mana regen, health regen etc.
2) Corpse runs. Most didn't want to spend hours doing this with no reward or fun.
3)Huge wait times setting up raids or groups- (i.e. "need cleric and CC for king group.")
4) Huge wait times for rare spawns and rare drops
5) PvP as an after thought.
6) Having to put your life on hold to be a "real" player
7) Unbalanced classes. I was an ogre sk and regretted it for several years.
It's clear that WoW turned EQ's weak points into strong points for WoW. EQ is fairly Masochistic.

Danth

08-18-2012, 11:25 AM

I haven't read the entire thread. I quit Everquest well before Warcraft launched. As such I don't consider these games direct competitors. They occupied different eras of my own gaming history.

Warcraft maintained its dominance largely due to two factors. First, it achieved a sort of self-sustaining critical mass of players. It drew in a lot of folks who aren't really gamers at all and who don't really give other games any consideration. Second, even more importantly, Warcraft has been blessed with consistently weak competition. Warcraft exists as a tolerably well-made game in a genre full of rubbish.

For my part, I enjoyed Warcraft during 2004 and in to 2005, before Blizzard ruined the level 60 instances by making them too easy, then again during the first expansion. I haven't enjoyed it since then and haven't subscribed since early 2009.

Project1999 is my lifeboat. Without this emulatorI'd be out of the MMOG hobby entirely.

Danth

Dagner

08-18-2012, 08:41 PM

Helen Keller could type up a better post than that.

Requiring a huge time investment like EQ isn't really a challenge in a game sense. Some pulls in EQ can be a "challenge" (not really), but its only a challenge if something like a mes fails, or someone isn't paying attention. There are plenty of fights in WoW that require more movement and teamwork than EQ ever did even now on live. You could honestly argue combat/fights in EQ are by far easier than WoW, WoW is just more accessible, and based on players/subscribers over the years, they got it right. There's nothing wrong with attracting all types of people to a game, the more the merrier. Some people will always be annoying and/or suck, but that is gaming in general. The real problem is, no other gaming companies seem to be able to expand on WoW like they did on EQ and other past MMOs.

Please post your 8 year old nephews character name on here for us too, thanks.

Also lets point out the title again : "Where did WoW go right"
Not: "Lets all be angry mouth breathing nerds who hate on popular things"

To piggyback off this post I will just say that the encounters in WOW, lets take the lich king fight for example, are/were much more difficult than anything EQ has to offer. The coordination for 10/25 people and timing don't compare here. Get a decent tank, some CH clerics and make sure everyone is appropriately geared for their level in EQ and it essentially just becomes about #'s after that.

The game wasn't any less difficult in my opinion, it just appeared to be less difficult. If you make a bad pull or attack the wrong mob in EQ, you die and lose an hour of experience (that requires a group to get) and time invested in running back/finding a group. WoW essentially required the same thing, but took out the time sink with exp loss/travel/etc. But sophistication of game play? Come on, it's not even close... Typical encounters become cookie-cutter once you learn your class for both games, except with WoW you have more abilities/options. Basically the bottom line is EQ's consequence for bad play was time; WoW's consequence for bad play was not being recognized as a good player.

The biggest thing that kept me playing in vanilla was pvp. It was really the first mmrpg I played where I felt like whatever class I played, I had a legitimate chance 1v1 against any other class. It was remarkably balanced; the complete opposite of EQ. I mean even within classes in EQ, the races were imbalanced (iksar monks at botb, anyone? ogre/troll warriors? etc)

I haven't played WoW since middle of WOTLK because of all the automated grouping and cross-server battlegrounds. Having factions and knowing the good players on the opposite side of your faction and competing was one of the better aspects of the game. At some point, both games took a turn towards maintaining casual players and milking the cash for as long as possible.

choklo

08-20-2012, 09:33 PM

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. This and the "Where did EQ Live Go Wrong" thread are two of the most interesting topics on this forum. It really gets to the heart of why we spend so many hours on this hobby. It would probably be very useful to many gaming companies like SOE, Arenanet, Blizzard, etc., but most of all, it's a look in the mirror for us MMO guys and gals.

cheers

Nadah, retired 60 HIE enchanter p1999

tops419

08-20-2012, 10:05 PM

I agree with the poster above. WoW was MUCH more complex (as far as raiding goes) than EQ.
I think the reason so many people play P1999, is you get a chance to be something you could have never been in the same era. The top 5 or 10% in EQ used to have everything: the COF's, Epics, God lewt, etc.
Now 90% have it and it's actually kinda wierd to see a character sporting level appropriate gear( a caster with a flowing black robe, a melee with banded, etc)

I think once most folks reach 60 and get all the phat lewts here, the motivation to keep playing is pretty much gone. I know it is for me.
Somehow, WoW battlegrounds and PVP (especially on the classic servers) are still just as much fun as they ever were.
The problem with current WoW/EQ is that with every new expansion (or update, in the case of WoW) the gear gets more and more outrageous and the carrot on the stick gets further and further away. If I invest all my time, I want to be able to say I have the BIS or near for a few months, at a minimum.
That's probably why Kunark and Velious, collectively, were such good expansions. Velious didn't make all of Kunark obsolete.
The Burning Crusade didn't make all of WoW obsolete (maybe the high end gear), but you still spent ample time in Vanilla zones.

choklo

08-20-2012, 10:53 PM

Roth

08-21-2012, 01:46 AM

Eventually you have to get off the treadmill. Work, a spouse, kids, friends, other interests, become more important than a video game. After you have spent hundreds of hours getting the best gear and spells, the next expansion starts the cycle over again. Eventually you get tired of the endless cycles of loot inflation(mudflation) and other things become more important.

I feel like I need to address this entire point, in regards to wow. The biggest reason I quit wow is because since halfway through wotlk(the downfall) two things happened: cross server instances, and patch gear resets. By a reset I mean every time a new raid patch comes out they basically have an easier raid instance than the ones you just did on heroic mode that hand out better gear. The point of this is so that everyone keeps moving forward and no one gets left behind.

Basically on wow right now EVERYONE gets gear. This sucks. It sucks because it makes you feel like there's no point playing. I only played for the raids anyhow, but the whole pushing people along so they can do more content feels too artificial once you realize whats going on. Wow was decent till halfway through wotlk. When gear reset every expansion and instances werent cross server, it was fine. Current game is unplayable becasue there's no server community and no meaningful reward for doing anything.

To address initial point, wow was popular simply because it was easy to "keep playing". The gameplay is hard, but the game is set up so that it's impossible to quit to frustration. I subbed to wow 6 years, played eq on and off for much short months. Still loved eq more though. Wow was less addicting(and less special) but set up so that there was no reason to want to quit.

Litharack_Necro

08-21-2012, 02:36 AM

Pretty to look at. That's about all imo. Game was total fail (imo.)

Xanthias

08-21-2012, 03:11 AM

Another thing that WoW did that helped it's player base, it had a card format of the game.
That brought in more money from people who didn't necessarily play the PC game or it attracted those who enjoyed card based games to the PC version.

joppykid

08-21-2012, 11:30 AM

WoW appeals to 12 year olds and for some reason millions upon millions of orientals. It is way too generic and watered down for my taste.

Lol

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 11:45 AM

I agree with the poster above. WoW was MUCH more complex (as far as raiding goes) than EQ.
I think the reason so many people play P1999, is you get a chance to be something you could have never been in the same era. The top 5 or 10% in EQ used to have everything: the COF's, Epics, God lewt, etc.
Now 90% have it and it's actually kinda wierd to see a character sporting level appropriate gear( a caster with a flowing black robe, a melee with banded, etc)

Disagree with this. When WoW released it was pretty cut and dry just like EQ was. It wasn't like WoW released with all kinds of awesome raid content. I remember getting to max level and not having much to do when it released.

As I stated before...a lot of this WoW talk is due to the progression of MMO based games, not so much WoW in itself. EQ started getting some pretty tricky and sick raids along the way also. Doesn't mean it was necessarily better at any certain point in time.

I remember playing Anarchy Online which I do believe released before WoW. Had a ton of cool features. Links, item mods, etc. It was basically a flop of a game. Lot of those features later found their way into EQ and WoW.

Just because you seen it first in WoW doesn't mean it was the first to pioneer something.

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 12:34 PM

Well if you will read the context in which things were written it might help. He said WoW raiding was much more complex than EQ. Simply not true. I can think of a ton of intense raids that I personally did in EQ. Not just tank and spank. Sure as a healer your job is going to be boring. You have the same job in every raid in every game...keep the tank alive lol of course your going to be bored. It's part of it. Buck up soldier.

Raids in EQ such as Rathe Council, Xegony, all kinds of GoD encounters, Vishimtar, Queen Sendaii, Hatchet, Mayong Mistmoore, 2 or 3 others in DoDH, Porthio, Any number of fights in Solteris, I can go on and on and on about encounters that have MANY things going on.

My entire point is he was comparing WoW and all its glory to 2 expansions of Everquest. 2 Expansions that are essentially the beginning of MMO's when encounters weren't complex in any game. That's what I'm trying to get across. By the time WoW had all those nifty raids EQ had them too.

GoD I considered mild raiding and it was considered the guild breaker of expansions. Many guilds folded and quit trying to get through GoD. What he is comparing is apples to oranges not apples to apples

falkun

08-21-2012, 12:37 PM

Most people on a classic emu server are going to compare classic raiding with classic raiding. WoW's original group and raid content was far more complex than the initial offerings from EQ.

Hell, Shadowfang Keeps final boss did more casting than melee - a unheard of concept for raid bosses in EQ.

bizzum

08-21-2012, 01:41 PM

Anybody else think it's wierd that Blizzard hasn't tried opening a few progression servers? I always thought they could milk their franchise a bit more with those.

falkun

08-21-2012, 01:45 PM

EQ's progression servers were shit. If Blizzard does anything like that, I'd hope they'd do it right.

But I don't think they will because they, like SOE, wish for the vision to continue onward.

bizzum

08-21-2012, 01:49 PM

EQ's progression servers were shit. If Blizzard does anything like that, I'd hope they'd do it right.

But I don't think they will because they, like SOE, wish for the vision to continue onward.

This is very true. Sony did these servers wrong in all ways possible. It was always way too quick. I think WoWs structure would make better for it anyways. With instances it could be sped up slightly (still not to the degree of EQ prog servers) and still more people could be up to speed. I still even think if it followed the exact timeline of the original it would still be sucessful.

Ephirith

08-21-2012, 01:50 PM

bizzum

08-21-2012, 01:50 PM

I agree, I remember seeing tons of posts on the WoW forums in the past about it too over the years. A lot of the expansion events were actually pretty enjoyable too for the most part. They did make comments about it though at one point, I'm sure you could find it with a little google work, I might look later and respond with some links if I find any info. If I remember it had to do with engine changes and whatnot, may be wrong though.

I also find it interesting that even with engine / content changes, they say it would be hard to do or they can't? If I was making shit and changing it significantly, I'd keep a backup or an archive of the old ones even if there was no initial plan to use it. Maybe I'm just a bit more meticulous but I doubt keeping that info on a drive is very expensive.

falkun

08-21-2012, 01:56 PM

This is very true. Sony did these servers wrong in all ways possible. It was always way too quick. I think WoWs structure would make better for it anyways. With instances it could be sped up slightly (still not to the degree of EQ prog servers) and still more people could be up to speed. I still even think if it followed the exact timeline of the original it would still be sucessful.

The biggest things they did wrong was not revert to classic melee models and leave in newbie armor quests. Newbie armor quests made all of the L30 Sol Ro gear inconsequential, you basically obtained a full set of gear by L15 and held it until planar. Also, melees were doing significantly more damage than was classic. Monks didn't use anything other than H2H until PoP was released, because their naked fists were just -better-.

Atmas

08-21-2012, 02:51 PM

I also find it interesting that even with engine / content changes, they say it would be hard to do or they can't? If I was making shit and changing it significantly, I'd keep a backup or an archive of the old ones even if there was no initial plan to use it. Maybe I'm just a bit more meticulous but I doubt keeping that info on a drive is very expensive.

The problem with Sony was that their "progression" servers were just content locked servers. People wanted the game as it was back when they started playing but they got.. well you guys all know this. I think Blizz hasn't done a "progression" server because donig so kind of admits that you may have peaked.

Also there are technical challenges involved if they don't want to go just the SoE content locked path. I'm certain they have the old files but it isn't just as simple as running an older version fo the server. Users will need to have compatible clients and everything will be exposed to the same exploits from years back. The game map isn't even the same as numerous areas had to be re-designed for Cataclysm because when the game was made a lot of the areas were not intended to be seen or accessible from flying mounts.

None of this means it isn't doable, just there is more complexity then running old server code.

bizzum

08-21-2012, 02:57 PM

The problem with Sony was that their "progression" servers were just content locked servers. People wanted the game as it was back when they started playing but they got.. well you guys all know this. I think Blizz hasn't done a "progression" server because donig so kind of admits that you may have peaked.

Also there are technical challenges involved if they don't want to go just the SoE content locked path. I'm certain they have the old files but it isn't just as simple as running an older version fo the server. Users will need to have compatible clients and everything will be exposed to the same exploits from years back. The game map isn't even the same as numerous areas had to be re-designed for Cataclysm because when the game was made a lot of the areas were not intended to be seen or accessible from flying mounts.

None of this means it isn't doable, just there is more complexity then running old server code.

Exactly what I said was wrong with Sony's. It just needs to be marketed and ran as a seperate entity--whether that means a new install and a seperate exectuable or some other form to accomplish that its fine. I wasn't suggesting it wasn't as easy as just opening a new server and saying run wild, but if the data is there its completely possible. All I was suggesting is to not do it how Sony did, which was exactly that with a few content locks like you said.

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 03:05 PM

I shouldn't have to decipher the "context" (lol) on an online forum, be clear instead, because you simply look like a hater. Healing in WoW is by far more complex than EQ ever was, same with melee, same with casters. I'd rather smash buttons for a rotation any day than hit auto attack and watch a fight for an hour. I asked you to "go on and on" about those raids, you didn't. So please do. The most I remember from them was occasional AOE and fears which weren't even very common to begin with.

Lets compare 2 expansions of WoW to 2 expansions of EQ then...would that be fair? Its not about comparison in that sense really. If you'd take a moment to stop foaming at the mouth with hate, you'd see the thread title. We were talking about improvements made from all MMOs not just EQ either. If you think live EQ has nearly the complexity of raids compared to even just the burning crusade expansion of WoW, you simply didn't play.

I am not a WoW hater. I played the game for awhile, didn't appeal to me. It's not that I didn't like it I just don't care for easy mode and welfare epics that's all.

You're still not getting it. You want to compare EQ's first two expansions to WoW's first two expansions but again it is apples and oranges all over again. Considering WoW's release alone was later, and WoW's first two expansions were simply later than EQ's first two. I am not absolutely sure when WoW released and what stages EQ was on when it did. It's been too many years. But given the fact that WoW was released quite some time AFTER EQ, it is a given that the first two expansions in WoW are going to be more detailed, simply because of technology and the push in the MMO industry at that time. That's all I'm saying.

As for going into details on EQ raids I will start with Rathe Council, 12 mobs, all having to die within a certain short time frame. 6 mezzable and 6 had to be OT'd, for hours while pulling and setting up was being done.

Vishimtar fight. Zonewide single target periodic death touch that you had to interact with an NPC to have cleared, adds spawning every certain percentage that had to be OT'd (5 or 6 all together I think) egg sacks that had to be killed immediately or else it would wipe raid, adds that hit like a freight train everyone time one person would miss a click or DT or simply died. Zonewide periodic AE dmg. All the while positioning a very large dragon so your raid does not get frontal. And a tail swipe.

Uqua in GoD fight- Nasty DoT on zone in reducing all your stats by 250, having to wield weapon drops in this zone to avoid AE, uncureable reoccuring every minute and a half, a wrong click inside the gas chamber basically wipes your entire raid with a barrage of AE's. every 20 seconds an emote where you have to open a certain door with one of four keys that are on the table. Killing 4 constructs to spawn two named that you have to split raid force on and kill within 30 minutes of initial pop. Among other encounters taking many hours to get through all to receive a flag...

Queen Sendaii- 4 waves, wave 1 and 2 are just adds, not many. Wave 3 spawns 6 adds that split into 12 more adds that split into 3 more each, somewhere around 36 adds or better, all having to be killed in a specific order to avoid being overwhelmed. All the while Queen is moving around her hive AE'ing an 11,000 damage spell which is basically instant death at this point. Then once you have all the adds down you engage the Queen and every 25% she splits into 4 copies, have to find and take down the "right one" to 50% for the other adds to despawn, and finally at 25% 35-40 adds spawn at once and you AE mez, and pray you kill her in time. And all waves are timed and you have to hurry.

These are just a few examples along the way. Almost every encounter in Tacvi, Seat of the Slayer was an obstacle course.This is not even getting into detail of any raids past DoDh expansion. The Queen Sendaii fight was just a flag fight to get into the main raid zone in DoDh. There was worse inside the demiplane. And this is not even in great detail about the fights. There was more involved then what I explained. I just don't see the sense in rambling on about it.

You guys criticize me for not playing through WoW long enough to get the beef of it, and I can understand that. But obviously not everyone here played EQ through it's entirety either. Both games had a lot to offer.

Messianic

08-21-2012, 03:15 PM

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 03:22 PM

Just to break it down for you and reiterate my point even further. EQ's second expansion was Scars of Velious, release date: Dec 5th 2000. WoW's second expansion was Wrath of the Lich King, release date: Nov 13, 2008.

8 years of difference between the two's first two expansion release date and you guys are comparing raid content? Come on now. It's not comparable. Not even close.

Hell WoW didn't even release it's original game until 2004. 4 years after EQ launched it's second expansion. By the time WoW released EQ was already on Omens of War expansion. According the MMO timelines and google searches.

So of course WoW's 2nd expansion is going to be lightyears ahead of EQ's second expansion.

To put it in perspective by the time WoW released the Wrath of the Lich king, EQ was already on Seeds of Destruction expansion, probably it's 25th or better. If you played in that expansion and are able to compare the two then please do. Otherwise it's apples and oranges fellas.

And I am not here to say EQ was better than WoW. What I am saying is people who call WoW's raiding experience more challenging or better, obviously didn't play EQ through it's entirety and therefor doesn't really have a clue about it.

Arclanz

08-21-2012, 03:27 PM

This has been discussed ad nauseum but here goes again.
1. Marketing
2. Blizzard Brand Name
3. Game so easy a child, and his mom could play (and does).

Let's analyze item 1. Not only has Blizzard constantly advertised their game on the internet and TV, but also they practically gave the game away to millions of chinese players. Now Blizzard can claim to have "millions of players," and suckers like you and I think "hey that must be a great game since so many people are playing."

I, nor any of the hundreds of EQ players I knew, have ever played WoW. I assume it is as easy as the stupidly dumbed down state of Live EQ.

In contrast, SOE spends almost zero dollars on marketing. I suspect it is because they are spread too thin on too many games to market any one particular product. SOE can crank out great products in incredible timelines but are fairly retarded when it comes to marketing and leveraging their IP.

Further, if SOE didn't completely redo their game every six months, alienating most of their customers along the way; they would have subs equal to, if not higher, than WoW.

lawll

08-21-2012, 03:31 PM

You guys criticize me for not playing through WoW long enough to get the beef of it, and I can understand that. But obviously not everyone here played EQ through it's entirety either. Both games had a lot to offer.

I think the game mechanics of any raid boss in BWL, AQ and nax has a way harder learning curve then any EQ raid boss. Just because a bunch of adds spawn and need to be OT or mez doesn't make it hard when you have been doing this since classic. Blizzard put mini games into raiding and it wasn't always just about combat to win. They made raiding fun for a lot of people that's what EQ was lacking by far.

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 03:32 PM

Oh is that ever true. Marketing, and targeting a casual and VERY large player base has earned WoW the MMO of all MMO's.

It's a lot like social media. If you are to bother with an online media type, which one are you going to choose? Myspace or Facebook? Nobody is on Myspace anymore. Everyone has migrated to Facebook because it is much simpler, easier, and new. And therefor it's where everyone went.

lawll

08-21-2012, 03:35 PM

This has been discussed ad nauseum but here goes again.

3. Game so easy a child, and his mom could play (and does).

Give us a few good reasons why EQ is harder than WoW without giving us pointless time sinks and grinds. The grind is a gimmick to hold of people from seeing your lack of content and I think if blizzard can skip a lot of the grind and still have a solid game it means a lot.

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 03:37 PM

I think the game mechanics of any raid boss in BWL, AQ and nax has a way harder learning curve then any EQ raid boss. Just because a bunch of adds spawn and need to be OT or mez doesn't make it hard when you have been doing this since classic. Blizzard put mini games into raiding and it wasn't always just about combat to win. They made raiding fun for a lot of people that's what EQ was lacking by far.

You are very correct. Agree 100% about the difficulty in encounters getting more evolved. I only listed encounters up to a certain point in time. There are encounters even later in EQ that are much more similar to what you are referring too. Sisters event in Demiplane comes to mind. And there is another text based encounter in Demi plane but can't think of the name of it. It's like playing a game with the NPCS. But don't you think that is due to having more technology and more ideas flooding the MMO market? From being 5-8 years newer? Have you tried raiding in recent EQ? I personally haven't. I quit raiding about 2 years ago. So I can't say EQ doesn't have some of those same strategies and qualities. They probably do. Vanguard had similar strategies to what you speak of. The Karax fight is like playing the Simon says game moving all around in just the right areas. So I'm sure SoE has implemented into EQ. The only problem is EQ doesn't have 12 million subs playing it today. It's washed up, old news, ran it's course.

Messianic

08-21-2012, 04:55 PM

3. Game so easy a child, and his mom could play (and does).

This is usually said by people who thought they were good at the game because they could twink characters at the higher level range of a low BG bracket and stomp people a few levels under them or play a hunter in AV, or gank people trying to quest at half-hp with a rogue.

Getting to max level in WoW was easier than in EQ. Doing anything in real PvP or any serious raiding in WoW was an entirely different matter.

fadetree

08-21-2012, 05:15 PM

Arguing about hardness in games is fail. People hate actual hardness. There's a few varieties of fake hardness...some prefer one over the other. Take your pick. But nothing is ACTUALLY hard until something tries to kill you in RL.

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 05:25 PM

You obviously aren't reading what was said. The entire point of the argument has flown way over your head.

Tops stated that WoW offered a lot more in terms of raid difficulty. And that is a blanketed opinion. I am willing to bet that neither you nor tops played EQ very far. Especially when WoW came out.Therefor have no insight as to how hard the raiding was down the line. And to say that one was much better or harder than the other is a shot in the dark.

I can't say which one was harder, because I didn't play deep into WoW. But I did play a long ways into EQ and I know that raiding stepped up tremendously as the expansions and time went by.

And once again you have failed. I have no quams with WoW. Stating that it was easy mode and had welfare epics is a true assessment because I played that far and I know how easy it was. You don't want to hear the truth about WoW, so you take shots at me for stating the truth. WoW is easier and more for casual play. The developers will even tell you that. They target the casual player because that's what pays the majority of their bills. Simple as that. It doesn't mean it's a bad game. It doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

Houdiny

08-21-2012, 05:53 PM

Giving people free level 50+ characters when they release an expansion = easy mode. Sorry man I'm not buying into your debate no matter how you try and church it up.

True story. I raided with an Enchanter in EQ for many years. We duo'd a lot of things with an Ench/Wiz combo. And when our guild on EQ finally caved in we went on to play WoW. Tried to get her into Vanguard later on but her computer wasn't good enough and she didn't have the money to upgrade it to be VG playable. She continued playing WoW. Shortly after her mom got into WoW. Then her dad. And now both her kids as well. The whole family is playing WoW now because one person played it. It was easy for them to pick up and play. And they get a lot of nice stuff for little to no effort.

Come back and tell me WoW isn't easy when you wake up. If a 65 year old women who doesn't even know how to use a computer can play and succeed in that game I don't know what else to tell ya. The writing is on the wall.

And of course I'm going to get defensive. Are you not reading what you are writing? You got all butt hurt when I spoke the truth about WoW. You lashed out, and in turn I got defensive. That seems to be the consensus of what I see. You called my posts stupid, of course I'm going to get defensive. Because I doubt very seriously that you even know what your talking about.

Roth

08-21-2012, 06:40 PM

You get more and more defensive every time. You have no idea how far into EQ I played, nor have you asked, but it seems to be as far as you played. You admit not playing far into WoW, yet you're allowed to speak about WoW? Dumb.

Yes, we all know this, it was never being debated. An MMO game improved through time and expansions!?!? You are a so smart thanks!!!

You basically came into the thread starting an EQ vs WoW debate, when you had no experience with WoW at all. I honestly thought you were trolling at first, now I just pity you.

Explain to me the "easy mode and welfare epics". What was so easy? What were the welfare epics you received?

Yes WoW is more for casual play, we already stated that in the WHERE DID WOW GO RIGHT thread that you're posting in. We said its more accessible to a broader audience, thanks for selectively reading.

And again, explain to me why it was so easy.

I haven't played WoW in months, I just hate people like you who form opinions without having an actual opinion.

You insult the poster more than you defend the game. If people don't agree with you they're morons, elitists, eqfanboys. Realize that you are an irrational baby who hates anyone who disagrees with you.

Edit: I'll explain the problem with patch gear resets and also what aspects of wow are too easy, and the problem with it. Leveling: zero challenge. Zero. In eq leveling does take a challenge... maybe not "skill" but it takes patience, knowing what to do, preperation, etc. You can't just throw yourself at eq and hit max level. In wow you can. The problem with this is in wow the game doesn't start till max level, so the entire leveling process simply feels like a waste of time. In eq half of the fun is leveling.

The problem with gear resets every few months is that mmorpg's are about working for something. If you think that's elitist and you want a game where everyone has everything, why don't you idk play a game that ISNT an rpg? Part of the reason mmos can work is the illusion that you're progressing. If you never actually make any progress then you're just playing solely for the gameplay, and at that point remove the levels and remove the gear entirely. Make the only point of the game achieves. That's basically what you seemed to be saying when you replied to my post earlier.

Roth

08-21-2012, 07:17 PM

The game is about the end-game PVP/Raiding/Dungeons. The leveling experience is smooth and quick, as it should be. Although I'm sure some don't agree and that is fine.

Good for them, what is wrong with people having fun on a video game? You don't think a 65 year old woman could play EQ? I played EQ before I turned 10, EQ is easy. Same thing right? Also notice how they aren't playing EQ with you, ouch.

You are criticizing something, with no experience, in a topic about where did a game go RIGHT. You are simply off-topic, and derailed the thread, which seemed to be what you wanted, so no one could talk down your precious EQ (nobody did). I'm not butt hurt at all, to be honest your posts crack me up. Again, WHERE DID WOW GO RIGHT. You simply are putting down a game you admit to having no experience with, yet you are speaking the "truth", right...

Are you his whiteknight in shining armor? Did you even read the thread? He basically said EQ is more difficult and complex than WoW, and had no means to back it up, and also admitted he barely has played WoW. He formed an uneducated opinion, and I called him out for it, get over it.

Great, another guy who is here to defend EQ. We are on an EQ Classic forum, why do you need to defend EQ? It just shows weakness on your part. The leveling process in WoW is quick and enjoyable (or tries to be), not everyone can invest the time it takes to level in EQ. That is where the games differ, congrats on figuring that out. This thread is about where WoW went right, and your feelings differ from the majority, that's fine though. Many people see the accessibility of WoW as a plus, hence the purchases/subscriber base all these years. There is a reason P1999 (or even eq live) doesn't have millions of people playing.

Guild Wars 2 PVP is solely based around skill, and not gear (or very very little), and is a highly anticipated game releasing soon. Will it flop? Who knows. Some people enjoy even leveled competition. Why are FPS games BY FAR the most played video games? You tell me.

In WoW you do progress. You can have battleground gear, or achieve higher arena rated gear that not everyone has access to. You can do dungeons/raid finder, and have decent/good PVE gear, or you can work with your gear and complete the more difficult raids/raid versions, and get even better gear. The hard modes are truly hard, at least for a while, but you wouldn't know that, obviously.

What happens when you have the BIS gear here on P1999? You make an alt or sit in the EC tunnel. Seems similar to every MMO to me, but you think its different huh? K.

Confirmed: mad.

Dude... go get some social skills. Learn how to interact with others without raging like a fucking idiot.

Roth

08-21-2012, 07:24 PM

Ok so instead of addressing my points you want to name call and put me down. You could at least have done both! I also fail to see how I'm raging, I actually enjoy you rabid mouth breathers getting all bent out of shape for no reason. Like I said, we're on a classic EQ forum, I obviously enjoy EQ and play it, it's not like I'm saying EQ sucks, relax. You guys are the one hating on a game you haven't even played. Contribute to the topic or lets just move on ;)

you don't address anyones points. you just write over them and say "no you're wrong"

Loli Pops

08-21-2012, 07:27 PM

Vanilla WoW sans BGs

bluntfang

08-21-2012, 08:19 PM

you don't address anyones points. you just write over them and say "no you're wrong"

You do the same thing but instead of writing over them you go off topic with ad hominem attacks in an attempt to evoke an emotional response. Grow up.

Square may be rude, but at least he makes good points and is attempting to steer the thread back on topic.

Roth

08-21-2012, 08:35 PM

You do the same thing but instead of writing over them you go off topic with ad hominem attacks in an attempt to evoke an emotional response. Grow up.

Square may be rude, but at least he makes good points and is attempting to steer the thread back on topic.

I'm willing to bet I have played wow more than he has. Anyways, mostly the point is that it's a waste of time to argue with someone that rude and annoying. He can't differentiate facts from opinions. You can't say someone is an idiot for disagreeing on why a game is fun or not fun(or say you're an eq fan boy that never played it). I'm not directing this at square himself because again, conversation with someone so beyond reason isn't worth the time.

edit: The reason im attacking him is mostly so that other posters can realize that it's best not to take a moron seriously. I already said my piece about wow and my experiences.

bluntfang

08-21-2012, 08:45 PM

I'm willing to bet I have played wow more than he has. Anyways, mostly the point is that it's a waste of time to argue with someone that rude and annoying. He can't differentiate facts from opinions. You can't say someone is an idiot for disagreeing on why a game is fun or not fun(or say you're an eq fan boy that never played it). I'm not directing this at square himself because again, conversation with someone so beyond reason isn't worth the time.

edit: The reason im attacking him is mostly so that other posters can realize that it's best not to take a moron seriously. I already said my piece about wow and my experiences.

It's funny, as I read through this response I notice that you have every quality that you seem to think that square has. Projection much?

Shinko

08-22-2012, 06:59 AM

arena's

Arteker

08-22-2012, 08:20 AM

i laugh at people who says wow class balance > eq.

As besta tester i did have a clue about what was wow before the launch and wich class was the best suited dps heal and kill other players.

i did pick a enhacement orc shaman while most go tauren, when u single handle killed ten alliance players of your same level without troubles thanks to windfury and that crafted axe was priceles.

Messianic

08-22-2012, 09:26 AM

Vanilla WoW sans BGs

I dunno, WSG/AB/AV all had their moments and were a ton of fun. The later BGs just didn't do it for me. PvP without BGs just becomes gang warfare, which isn't as fun for a pseudo-casual player who just wants to PvP every now and then on a fairly even plane.

AV as a hunter was some of the most fun I ever had, although I really felt Alliance had a much better layout (all versions). AB and WSG were flat awesome, esp if you had 2 or 3 RL friends to team up with.

i laugh at people who says wow class balance > eq.

As besta tester i did have a clue about what was wow before the launch and wich class was the best suited dps heal and kill other players.

i did pick a enhacement orc shaman while most go tauren, when u single handle killed ten alliance players of your same level without troubles thanks to windfury and that crafted axe was priceles.

So did you actually play after Beta? Doesn't sound like you did.

Windfury was really strong, but frost shock was much more a pain in the A for alliance before DRs were implemented, so if you're pointing at windfury as an example of no class balance, you've already lost.

The very proposition that "WoW class balance was just as bad or worse than EQ's" is laughable from the start. I'm sorry, if you don't see it i'm not going to bother to explain it.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 11:16 AM

Just my 2 cents on the "new" topic of this thread. To preface I played EQ basically from launch until after OoW was released, I actually did the majority of stuff through PoP including Quarm but only a sliver of GoD. I playeyd WoW from Vanilla on and off again until a bit after Cata launched. In both games I was pretty hardcore usually playing within the top 3 guilds on a server. On EQ my main was a Wiz on WoW a mage and I have played numerous alts on both.

Simply put, in my opinion EQ is a more difficult game, WoW gameplay is more complex in combat, but then EQ overall is (or at least was) more complex.

I will attempt to expound. EQ is more difficult because while the mechanics for typical playing (dpsing/healing/tanking) are simpler, encounters in the game are less forgiving. Aside from the obvious lack of quests, the xp penalties for death, the failures for tradeskill combines, it is harder to progress in EQ because of the game structure. In WoW any class can solo to max level, not the case in EQ. In EQ not only is leveling a large timesink but the opponents you face are much more difficult in comparison to your own strength and abilities. This kind of plays into the point about WoW being more complex with gameplay. Every class in WoW had more abilities in frequent use (I phrase it this way because later in EQ with AAs you had a ton of abilities but they weren't all in a typical encounter).

The same is true for raids in my mind. EQ had some tough encounters later on, things like the rathe council expected a lot of people all doing their fairly simple jobs very well and anyone messing up would be a wipe for the raid. WoW on the other hand has everyone jumping through multiple hoops but it was less of a big deal most of the time if a couple of people died. Obviously I can't blanket statement both games and all encounters with in them.

I say EQ was a more complex game overall because I feel like there were more non-common knowledge things in the game. A lot of the quests you need to progress in EQ, such as the key quests invovled getting drops off of what would be really random mobs if you didn't have a wiki or some outside reference. WoW had several items that were quest pieces but they were pretty expliclity pointed out to you and there was a kind of pattern to how you did things for one quest that would let you understand future quests. I guess it all comes down to the intent of WoW to steer you in the directions and give you guidance where as EQ instead just left you to your own devices and you may encounter a quest NPC or find out something from another player's experience.

lawll

08-22-2012, 11:34 AM

Lol at all the people who think pointless grinds and forced social interaction is a solid MMO game model.

Swish

08-22-2012, 11:40 AM

Did anyone play the early days of EQ2? Group XP penalty if anyone in the party died. Got trained and wiped? Wave goodbye to your XP :P

Sorry, bit of a derail... funny to think though, that EQ2 is generally considered a total failure. I blame the high end PC required to run it (WoW could be played on a much lower spec), poor group mechanics and the ridiculous attempts they made to implement PvP.

subatis

08-22-2012, 12:05 PM

I use to always use magelo, castersrealm, alla, plenty of things for information involving EQ, what's the difference with WoW? Yes, EQ made you explore and figure things out on your own more, but I'm pretty sure a majority of players used fan sites for help more than you think. In the end though, all of that exploring and running around is, ding ding ding, a timesink. Running from point A to point B, and taking an hour, isn't really "gameplay". It may feel like more of an accomplishment to some, but I'd rather just play the video game, because in the end, that's all it is.

i think this is where the difference of opinion shines through...for me, playing EQ isn't 100% about leveling and gearing, which to me pretty much embodies WoW. i am a very casual player, probably log on 5 hours per week tops, and take long breaks regularly...but even after this game has been out for so long, i still enjoy poking around, leveling at my own pace, doing random quests, etc.

tl;dr that's just like, your opinion, man.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 12:26 PM

Square, to use your own word "your biggest failure" is that you can't post in this thread objectively. It is a shame, as others have already pointed out, that you cannot express your conflicting opinions without making underhanded comments. No where in my post did I mention that EQ or WoW is a better game because of their mechanics. I could easily make a post mirroring yours that your lack of understanding the complexity of EQ is reflective of your lack of play.

In either case I made post specifically stating that you can't make a blanket statement about all encounters in the games. I also tried to place emphasis on the the difference between difficulty of actions required and time required.

Timesinks are not complex, they are more difficult, saying they are not is illogical. Running a mile is not any more complex than running half a mile really (please don't jump on some stupid point about pacing here) it is more difficult because it requires more resources. Some people seem to be upset by this because it does not include a quality increase and therefore is inferior. If you feel that way fine, but don't try to argue timesinks don't make things more difficult.

For the record I actually had a lot of fun with both games when I played them. Both of them have gone in directions I am not super found of today but I still consider them great experiences.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 12:50 PM

Square's a young bully. Everyone who has a differing opinion "automatically fails".

Good game sir.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 01:08 PM

What kind of experience? You can experience something without having hands on experience. You can have experience by watching someone else, or by hearing from someone else.

And to be fair, you have done the most name calling in this entire thread. You can't go a paragraph without insulting someone in some way. I'm just calling it like I see it.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 01:15 PM

This thread started off as a discussion on the positive things in WoW. Which also had some discussion on the negative things. Then turned into a discussion on difficulty, which ended up a discussion about the difficulty gap between EQ and WoW. Many said EQ was way easier than WoW. Houdiny had the opposite opinion, and even had factual evidence to support his claim. However, his opinion was different from yours, and several others, and so this thread became a flame war between the two opinions.

I read the thread friend.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 01:20 PM

Again, I don't feel the need to show respect to people who came into a POSITIVE topic, only to bash a game and make negative comparisons. It isn't my fault people couldn't read the topic title correctly, its your fault. It sounds like I've played as far into EQ as you and others here have, so like I asked these others, post more information and direct it to my points I made, you don't seem to be able to respond. Instead you take the sensitivity on the internet route.

Right, and I made points about that, and pointed you to another thread focused on that. We can agree to disagree, that's fine. I'd rather spend the "time" playing the game, the game.

You don't have experience in WoW, so don't make comparisons, that was never the point of this topic anyway. Why do you need to defend EQ on a classic EQ forum? No one has a response to that.

Again, read the other thread about timesinks. Saying a timesink is "difficult" is just silly. Difficult why? Because you spend hours to accomplish one little thing? Why is this considered difficult?

In the other thread, you'll see what your posting is already addressed by me as well as others, and pretty much shows what you're saying is silly.

Say you have to camp a specific mob for about 18 hours straight, does that mean it is difficult, or does it mean it just requires a lot of time? We are talking about things in a game sense, not that you can't eat/shower for 18 hours, that isn't game difficulty.

I think you have created an amalgamation of people posting in this thread. I never had a problem with WoW, IMO its a very well made game and I had fun playing it. You are so overly defensive of WoW you can't even seperate who has said what. To be honest if wanted to bash WoW I could, I could do the same for EQ, both games have a flaw list 10 miles long. In all honesty your compsure does a lot more detriment than anything I could say as you are a great reminder of the anti-social player base in WoW.

As far as points go, you really haven't made any in response to me except for your opinion that timesinks =\= difficulty. While I can definitely understand you would "rather play the game" you are arguing apples and oranges. Your preference of playstyle has nothing to do with the definition of difficulty, the level of impediment in reaching your goal.

Also you fail to see the irony of talking about how WoW was more excessible to everyone than making incorrect statements about who played what. I mean it really doesn't matter what you think, I played and enjoyed WoW and know it. But it does just degrade your arguments when you start basing them on knowing details about the lives of people you have never met. End game in WoW was far more attainable than end game in EQ.

You also failed to address the points brought up by other people about item obtainment in WoW but that could just go on forever.

bizzum

08-22-2012, 01:23 PM

The second half of this thread is more representative of the average WoW player. Maybe they just started to chime in!

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 01:27 PM

Yes, the thread started to derail once "difficulty" and "too easy/casual" starting coming up, which are just taking shots at a game. His "factual evidence" was grossly exaggerated, and if you ever did those raids he spoke of, you'd understand. You clearly have not, and you aren't contributing to the topic, or even the derail topic, friend. If you'd like to quote and address points I've made, or even others that made some, feel free.

All I am understanding from your posts, (And this is going to bite me in the ass.) is that you are mad that a discussion, moved away from the initial point.

I'm going to leave my posting at this. You can consider this a victory or something.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 01:29 PM

You are so overly defensive of WoW you can't even seperate who has said what.

That's because everyone keeps repeating the same thing that has been addressed by square and others ad infinitum as "responses" to square's arguments.

Their response to timesink != difficulty? But Timesinks are difficult!

Their response to encounters being more complex in WoW? But EQ Encouters are less forgiving and thus more complex!

square is the only one trying to have a discussion, but everyone else seems to be stuck on the few things that "made EQ great" in a thread about what made WoW great.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 01:37 PM

stuck on the few things that "made EQ great" in a thread about what made WoW great.

See there it goes again, and I guess a lot of it is my fault for being bated. I never said timesinks made EQ great.

I made a post in this thread way earlier about what I thought WoW did right in becoming a huge financial success.

Later down the line when Square was arguing with people I tried to make a non-opininated post about the "new subject" and he came out with a condscending post much like he had done to some other people.

What WoW did right is pretty apparent, just people tend to phrase it in ways based on their opinion. Someone says they made it more accessible and someone else uses the words too easy.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 01:44 PM

Atmas

08-22-2012, 01:47 PM

I was in a large raiding guild in WoW for a while, and often was in some of the top ranked 3v3 and 5v5 teams on the Blackrock server (aj/misc be mirin). If I was anti-social this wouldn't of been possible, seeing as how interaction and communication is truly key. I never said EQ sucks, or WoW sucks, it was a debate about complexity and feeling like you're truly playing, instead of watching a movie. There are too many people blinded by nostalgia, and they keep forgetting what forum we're on. I play on P1999 for god's sake. I obviously enjoy EQ. Why does it needed to be defended, and WoW need to be bashed? Especially in a POSITIVE thread.

Your bolded quote speaks for itself. I chuckled. I guess I just prefer challenges (some minor) over sitting on my ass waiting for hours.

It is/was more accessible. Everyone who seems to bash WoW has limited experience with it though, so they are bashing something they've barely experienced. I never enjoyed the leveling/questing in WoW myself, but I enjoyed the PVP/PVE end game, you know...the focus of the game. Everyone's debate is "oh my gosh its so easy to level in wow its casual and sucks". Please...

I did address item obtainment, I mentioned arenas vs battleground gear, guild raid vs raid finder, etc. I'd rather play a game for 2 hours and have a chance for items, than camp a spawn for 20 hours to have a chance at the item, once. If you don't agree, that's fine. The majority of people don't have 20 hours to spare.

I chuckled too. You are reading my post but I guess this is failure of the internet where you are deriving something not intended.

I do not like timesinks. I don't like getting carpal tunnel handing in 2g at a time to NPCs for faction. Me saying that EQ is more difficult because it has timesinks does not mean I think it is a better game because of it. I can tell you that a football field is 100 yards from end zone to end zone, it doesn't indicate if I have a preference for a particular team.

Me saying that you can level any class solo in WoW but not EQ does not mean I think it is automatically a better game. I do personally feel that a lot of people in WoW were more clueless about their class or social skills because of it at end game though.

I have always said I thought WoW was way more polished than EQ or any other MMO I have played when it was released.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 01:48 PM

What WoW did right is pretty apparent, just people tend to phrase it in ways based on their opinion. Someone says they made it more accessible and someone else uses the words too easy.

So you say you're intelligent enough to discern the difference between a fact phrased as an opinion and an opinion, yet you still post here telling people that they are making opinions and not stating fact? What exactly is your purpose in this thread if not a poor attempt at trolling?

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 01:51 PM

So you say you're intelligent enough to discern the difference between a fact phrased as an opinion and an opinion, yet you still post here telling people that they are making opinions and not stating fact? What exactly is your purpose in this thread if not a poor attempt at trolling?

Whenever someone says a game's aspect is better, it is an opinion. The fact in his statement, was that people are stating the same opinion in a different way.

Edited for clarity.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 01:57 PM

I did say I appreciated your post you know. The fact you are overly sensitive on the internet is not my fault. Also, look up non-opinionated and reread your initial post I responded to.

People like hatediny started a debate, and quickly ran from the debate. Whether you found my posts rude or not, call me a jerk, but at least respond to the things I've wrote. Here's my favorite that no one has answered: Why do you need to defend EQ on a classic EQ forum?

I don't see the need to sugar coat my posts, because you shouldn't take offense to what I say, as I promise you I'm not truly trying to offend you. I break up posts in quote form, and address the points, yet no one seems to do the same thing, they only call me names and say I'm a jerk, well I guess that means I'm right and rude. I'll take that.

Lets see:
Don't always have the time to break up posts. Your breaking up posts doesn't always mean you are answering each point.

People may not answer some of your questions because they are distracted by your tone. If you really want answers maybe less negative conotation. Or direct them to someone. One might ask why you feel the need to defend WoW on an EQ forum? Anyone can say something nasty and have no basis for an argument so it is generally a tool used in that capacity.

I really don't think anyone who has played any online game for more than a week could be overly sensitive to be honest.

Yes my post had opinion about which was more difficult but not about which game was better.

lawll

08-22-2012, 02:01 PM

I have always said I thought WoW was way more polished than EQ or any other MMO I have played when it was released.

Have you seen that crap that has been released since WoW went live?! Nothing has been as polished as wow from release till now. No one even puts up the amount of effort that blizzard does into MMOs anymore.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 02:02 PM

Some of you guys have the worst analogies I swear lol

Your opinion seems to be fluctuating a bit, and you still haven't really addressed anything I've brought up, but ok.

If my analogy doesn't make sense or you think my opinion is in flux maybe it is because you keep arguing with me about something I didn't say.

My analagoy is in reference to me giving a fact (or at least not highly debated subject, such as EQ contains timesinks) and you then infering I have an opinion on wether or not that is a good thing.

fadetree

08-22-2012, 02:02 PM

If you really want to communicate effectively, stop being rude. Your arguments, however effective, will not get proper traction with others if you are consistently rude. Now, if all you want is to consider yourself right, then that's fine. If you want others to agree with you, you'll do much better if you aren't rude. It may be that you think the 'facts' are all that are needed, but sadly its just not true.

You are now free to say something dismissive and probably rude about my post. Happily, I don't care.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 02:04 PM

Have you seen that crap that has been released since WoW went live?! Nothing has been as polished as wow from release till now. No one even puts up the amount of effort that blizzard does into MMOs anymore.

Sorry to clarify, I was not saying at the time of WoW's release rather, when any game was released. So yes, I agree.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 02:19 PM

I also though you were done here? :rolleyes:

I always love these. ;)

I meant I wasn't going to continue discussing this. It has turned into an "I'm right because you can't tell me anything to change my mind." argument.

I'm just trying to add a little more clarity to some of the points raised, that I was trying to get across.

EDIT: You judge other people's opinions as uneducated, when you have no idea if it is actually educated or not.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 02:23 PM

You basically said timesinks are difficult, I pointed you to another thread about that, and said I don't understand why you feel they are difficult. You didn't respond. I never claimed WoW or EQ was better.

I did respond, to summarize what I said: Timesinks are not more complex. They make things more difficult to be accomplished. I also included a short descripition of difficulty if had read my post. You tried to criticize me for saying I was one of several people saying WoW was dumb for being EZ mode, which I never said.

I don't care what people think about me on the internet. I don't care who agrees with me. Feel free to read some of the responses I received from people, which were far more insulting and rude than mine.

Also, what is more important than facts? That's like saying why bother with science and studies when we can just guess. Good debates include facts, this debate however is too heavily focused on opinion, mostly uneducated opinions, and that's the problem.

You also cared enough to speak directly to me, happily. You could of easily sent me a PM instead of adding another sensitive post here which has nothing to do with either of the topics.

You obviously care about people staying on topic. Also don't you see the hypocrisy in saying, what is more important than the facts then throwing in all your random crap? I don't poke fun at your lack of reading comprehension or projectionism issues.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 02:29 PM

So you say you're intelligent enough to discern the difference between a fact phrased as an opinion and an opinion, yet you still post here telling people that they are making opinions and not stating fact? What exactly is your purpose in this thread if not a poor attempt at trolling?

Actually if you go back I made a post on the intial topic have you?

lawll

08-22-2012, 02:40 PM

Timesinks are not more complex. They make things more difficult to be accomplished. I also included a short descripition of difficulty if had read my post. You tried to criticize me for saying I was one of several people saying WoW was dumb for being EZ mode, which I never said.

I still don't see how a eq timesink makes things more difficult. Do you really learn more about your class from camping mobs for exp in the same spot for hours casting the same sequence of spells or running a 5 man dungeon crawl fighting bosses with raid like ability's? Also right off the bat witch sounds more difficult?

Atmas

08-22-2012, 03:05 PM

Then why are you still participating in the discussion...?

They are uneducated, I've sent PMs and asked for links to people's WoW characters, provided my own, and have had no responses. Put up or shut up.

I care about people staying on topic, because otherwise it's just a straight flame-war and doesn't belong on the server chat forum. I'm at least trying to stay on the line (hovering) of the forum rules.

I ASKED what was more important than facts, it was a question, I'm truly not sure what he meant.

Also feel free to poke at my reading comprehension (you can't comprehend the post title). I've spoken directly to quotes, and I'm sorry that this is text on a screen with tons of random hate and uneducated opinions, so I can't perfectly understand everything everyone means. Your posts are a mess as it is. Honestly, if it was verbal/in person it would be far easier to comprehend opinions/feelings too, wouldn't it smart guy?

I'm also not sure that projectionism is a word, but I think I get what you're saying. Technically you could throw projection at every single poster in this topic, including yourself.

If you have a problem with me directly, take it to PMs, this topic is already cluttered with sensitive cry-baby posts as it is. If you don't like me, use ignore or just don't read my posts, boom problem solved.

The last line was really just to see you make a big "sensitive" post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

I don't really have a problem with you but your posts are often pointlessly convoluted with your manafactured game histories for people.

Obviously I can comprehend the title if you had read my first post (not the first post on the subject you changed).

Lastly, the hate isn't random when you put in inflamatory remarks. Don't like the direction things are going in? Don't drive it there.

lawll

08-22-2012, 03:13 PM

I smell a lot of fan boys in this thread with no real proof that EQ was a harder game other than timesinks.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 03:17 PM

I don't know what point I havent addressed.

My main character was Atmas a mage on Deathwing, I doubt he shows up now because I've been inactive for a while. Not really sure what that will prove? WoW was not some kind of exclusive club.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 03:39 PM

Can you link me up bud? I had a troll mage. Or lookup Dieselich (Warlock) if you want something from back when.

Houdiny

08-22-2012, 03:40 PM

I smell a lot of fan boys in this thread with no real proof that EQ was a harder game other than timesinks.

There is no real proof from either side of the argument. How many people in this forum are currently playing both WoW and EQ live and raiding at the highest level on both? Almost everyone in this conversation has said they quit playing EQ live a few years ago at least.

Square says he played about to where I did which was the Secrets of Faydwer expansion. Yet I have to explain encounters too him that are 15 expansions old. Lot of smoke being blown around and people just hating because someone gives their experience with a game. When I played WoW it was easy. And that's not a bash on the game. It's just a true statement. That's probably why it is so popular.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 03:47 PM

I don't really have a problem with you but your posts are often pointlessly convoluted with your manafactured game histories for people.

So you dismiss his opinions because you think he manufactured his history of gaming? Why are you reading this thread? So you can point at people and say "LOL You're lying about how many games you play so your opinion is invalid, but here's mine that's totally not made up and happens to be correct!"

What's the point of not believe what games he has played? Just stay on topic.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 03:57 PM

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?q=atmas

85 Troll mage, deathwing, copy link location, cache/wayback whatever you wanna use.

The way back machine obvisouly doesn't have that and you should know achievements weren't in vanilla.

A quick search brought up this:
http://www.wow-achievements.com/player/us/Deathwing/Atmas/

I'm not sure how you think a person could have 5600 achievement points and never have raided in WoW. You seem to have gotten less loquacious so I can only assume you see the obvious ludicriousness of that. Its been I think over a year at this point since I stopped playing for the thirdt time but I think I had gotten the achievements for doing a ridiclous number of quests in WoTLK? Either way you are wrong.

Messianic

08-22-2012, 03:57 PM

Hey guys imma let you finish and i'm happy for you but Runescape was one of the best MMO's of all time!

OF ALL TIME!

Atmas

08-22-2012, 03:59 PM

So you dismiss his opinions because you think he manufactured his history of gaming? Why are you reading this thread? So you can point at people and say "LOL You're lying about how many games you play so your opinion is invalid, but here's mine that's totally not made up and happens to be correct!"

What's the point of not believe what games he has played? Just stay on topic.

This is a great post because it 1. shows you havent read anything but are just chiming in and 2. Argues in my favor because I was commenting on him doing that.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 03:59 PM

Hey guys imma let you finish and i'm happy for you but Runescape was one of the best MMO's of all time!

OF ALL TIME!

i have 10 years /played in runescape and it is more complex than EQ even tho i only have a lvl 30 druid in eq and 5 other alts under lvl 20

Raavak

08-22-2012, 04:05 PM

Runescape is still going strong, isn't it?

lawll

08-22-2012, 04:08 PM

I'm not sure how you think a person could have 5600 achievement points and never have raided in WoW. .

You can get 5600 achievement points EASY without raiding. Most of the achievement that do give the most points aren't even from raids.

bizzum

08-22-2012, 04:08 PM

This thread is unbearable now.

bizzum

08-22-2012, 04:09 PM

There were definitely full raiders in WoTLK that had less than 3k achievement points in my guild because all they did was raid and didn't give a shit about achievement points. Which is the smart thing to do.

lawll

08-22-2012, 04:11 PM

Atmas

08-22-2012, 04:19 PM

5600 Achievment points for a level 85 character is not a lot, I'd even say its below average. We were also discussing raids/end game content, and again you bring up "the number of quest achievements" you have, oh boy those are tough. Most of the vanilla stuff is still there as feats as well. You have holiday feats, cool. You also have dungeon completions (mostly non heroic), which are not raids. Your gear was also poor so I assume you didn't play much of cata.

Our discussion can end right there, you've said your piece, I've said mine, and we've seen you don't have experience. Nothing more to discuss with you on the topic, if you feel the need to address me directly, again, please PM me, thanks.

You right. When you right you right, and you right.

Congratulations you have just recently caught up to my earliest post where I said I quit right after playing a little Cataclysm.

It took me a while but I can see that all that matters to you is saying to yourself that you are right, regardless of wether or not that is based on facts.

If you still think I have never raided in WoW and I just did holiday achievements or whatever then you seriously must go through life with blinders on.

Btw I stopped in WoTLK and came back for a small stint in Cata, so my 5k+ was actually pretty high when I played in my peak.

You can argue about what you think is more difficult, or even the definition of difficultly. But if you try to say I didn't raid in WoW, you are wrong

lawll

08-22-2012, 04:20 PM

This thread is unbearable now.

Well thank you for your insight on this topic! I don't think we would of even came close to a conclusion on this issue without your comments.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 04:22 PM

Yes in WoTLK maybe 5k was a lot but in cata it not a lot at all.

All I basically did in Cata was get 85, the only raid I think I did was that Cata equivalent of the Vault, and maybe another raid once or twice? Cata was really so forgetable.

bizzum

08-22-2012, 04:23 PM

Well thank you for your insight on this topic! I don't think we would of even came close to a conclusion on this issue without your comments.

I'm glad I could be a service. Be sure to check back 5 pages for my actual opinion before the topic turned into an achievement point Epeen you didnt answer my question fest!

bizzum

08-22-2012, 04:23 PM

Yes in WoTLK maybe 5k was a lot but in cata it not a lot at all.

People played Cata?

I thought this thread was about what WoW did right

lawll

08-22-2012, 04:31 PM

You can argue about what you think is more difficult, or even the definition of difficultly. But if you try to say I didn't raid in WoW, you are wrong

So doing a little raiding in one exp pack gave you enough experience in the game to back up your opinions 100%? If you didn't HM ulduar or heroic LK that you don't have the experience to form any opinions. That's like me just raiding in fear/hate on EQ and than making opinions on how easy raiding in this game is. You didn't see all the game had to offer on the difficultly level so how can you make a opinion!?!? Also watching videos doesn't mean anything at all! As in: that race car driver sure does make it look easy but when i try it myself it's a way different story.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 04:37 PM

Who is crying? You keep worrying about if I like you on a personal level.

Also, learn to read man. I said WoW was a better made game, I know the engine is superior and I said that normal combat is more involved. You don't even have to raid in WoW to know that. The thing is WoW never hits a point where the rotations are crazy hard or something. So you have to look at factors beyond that.

I don't care about my number of achievemnts, I was just posting that it was ridiculous to think anyone could have 5k achievements in WoTLK and never have raided. You shifted the conversation, like always.

You think I have never raided please post something that proves that, otherwise your opinions are worthless. I honestly can see the potential to form an argument about game mechanics, but when you try to say I didn't do something I know I did then it is apparent you just talk out of your ass. Are you going to argue with me about what I had for breakfast this morning?

Atmas

08-22-2012, 04:39 PM

Know whats funny? If you remember, when cata came out, guilds and players complained that the dungeons/raids WERE TOO DIFFICULT. They ended up being toned down, but yeah man, easy mode. Countless numbers of people left around that time too due to the difficulty.

I don't remember it. Sorry dude I quit by then.

lawll

08-22-2012, 04:41 PM

You think I have never raided please post something that proves that, otherwise your opinions are worthless. I honestly can see the potential to form an argument about game mechanics, but when you try to say I didn't do something I know I did then it is apparent you just talk out of your ass. Are you going to argue with me about what I had for breakfast this morning?

Saying you raided in a WoW is very vague and you could of just raided the dumbed down naxx that launched with wotlk. Also for all we know you showed up for like 10 raids or afked half the time.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 04:41 PM

So doing a little raiding in one exp pack gave you enough experience in the game to back up your opinions 100%? If you didn't HM ulduar or heroic LK that you don't have the experience to form any opinions. That's like me just raiding in fear/hate on EQ and than making opinions on how easy raiding in this game is. You didn't see all the game had to offer on the difficultly level so how can you make a opinion!?!? Also watching videos doesn't mean anything at all! As in: that race car driver sure does make it look easy but when i try it myself it's a way different story.

What??? When did I saw I only played one expansion? Also Ulduar and LK same expansion broseph. Who said anything about videos?

Atmas

08-22-2012, 04:46 PM

Saying you raided in a WoW is very vague and you could of just raided the dumbed down naxx that launched with wotlk. Also for all we know you showed up for like 10 raids or afked half the time.

It could, and I most certainly did afk a lot, I still do. I didn't do Nax when it first opened, even though I did pay the ridiculous gold amount for that quest. I kind of disliked being forced to go Frost in vanilla, and then being Sunwelled in BC. I have other thoughts if you would like to hear them.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 04:50 PM

Well according to the forum rules, you should take your direct posts that are off topic and aimed at me to PMs instead of putting them in this topic, that is why I keep suggesting that to you. I'm just trying to cut down on the mass amount of flame posts here, which in turn would cut down on my responses as well honestly.

But I thought EQ was more difficult, and timesinks are difficult? Flippity flop.

I'm not discussing WoW with you anymore, since you only want to bash it and have little experience with the end-game (the CORE of the game)

I assume it was something high calorie, high cholesterol, and oh so rich in saturated fats.

I'm not sure if I am being trolled or swiftboated now.

It was Cinnamon and Spice instant Oatmeal actually.

I actually wouldn't mind if all our posts since I made a post on your subject were removed.

lawll

08-22-2012, 04:52 PM

What??? When did I saw I only played one expansion? Also Ulduar and LK same expansion broseph. Who said anything about videos?

Btw I stopped in WoTLK and came back for a small stint in Cata, so my 5k+ was actually pretty high when I played in my peak.

g[/B]

Wotlk was your peak so Ulduar and heroic LK would of been the hardest content at the time. Unless you completed both raids you don't really know how changeling raiding in WoW is and watching videos won't help you understand.

lawll

08-22-2012, 04:54 PM

You can go back and hit Edit for each of the posts. Also man up and make your own oatmeal instead of that sugar loaded crap. Good call on the flavor though cin+spice #1

This is getting good don't try an become friends now....

Atmas

08-22-2012, 05:06 PM

Wotlk was your peak so Ulduar and heroic LK would of been the hardest content at the time. Unless you completed both raids you don't really know how changeling raiding in WoW is and watching videos won't help you understand.

Yes did some Heroic Ulduar, not all of it, and maybe just 10 man for heroic. I do remember we almost got a US wide first on heroic XT. We actually thought the encounter was broken, it turned out it had been changed. Ulduar was a lot of fun, particularly because we were doing encounters without looking up the strats.

I took one of my many breaks before my guild killed Yogg. I came back and they had basically split. I think I did the first part of LK but quit again before anyone had killed him. I came back and never really played that seriously after that.

I think this is well past the point of dicussing if ever raided in WoW. I'm still not really sure why anyone would want to lie about that though. Well at the least you are walking me down memory lane.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 05:25 PM

I think this is well past the point of dicussing if ever raided in WoW. I'm still not really sure why anyone would want to lie about that though. Well at the least you are walking me down memory lane.

Hmmm...

I don't really have a problem with you but your posts are often pointlessly convoluted with your manafactured game histories for people.

So you accuse people of lying about their game histories, yet when you factually state that you have limited experience with WoW raiding and people use that information to rightly give your opinions less worth, you get mad and accuse people of lying about their game histories?

Atmas

08-22-2012, 05:33 PM

Hmmm...

So you accuse people of lying about their game histories, yet when you factually state that you have limited experience with WoW raiding and people use that information to rightly give your opinions less worth, you get mad and accuse people of lying about their game histories?

I didn't acuse anyone else about lying about their history. I have decent raid experience in Vanilla, BC, and WoTLK. I can't really say anything about Cata though cause I really didn't play it.

I still stand by what I said in the first place, EQ is overall more difficult even if WoW is more complex in combat. If that difficulty comes from RNG and more things that would you consider a time sink, well tough. Thats how it is.

lawll

08-22-2012, 05:47 PM

I still stand by what I said in the first place, EQ is overall more difficult even if WoW is more complex in combat. If that difficulty comes from RNG and more things that would you consider a time sink, well tough. Thats how it is.

Saying timesinks make the game more difficult is a opinion and most mmo players won't agree with you.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 07:21 PM

Saying timesinks make the game more difficult is a opinion and most mmo players won't agree with you.

Unless you have conducted a survey that is just an opinion.

It's pointless to argue with you guys because you have this definition that difficulty is just needing to press more buttons during a fight and write off everything else in the game.

Pelantlies for failure like corpse runs and xp loss are just timesinks.

Pulling mobs is just a timesink.

Leveling and soloing ability doesn't count in the argument for some bizzare reason.

Quests being less hand holding in EQ are once again just time sinks.

Fine, how about agro management? Pretty much brain dead work with Add-Ons. Forming groups? There is a tool for that in WoW. WoW also has tokens for you to buy end game gear, or is random drops just another time sink?

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 07:28 PM

Unless you have conducted a survey that is just an opinion.

Want a survey? The current subscription rate of WoW vs EQLive. Or how about subscription rates of both games at their peak population.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 07:29 PM

Want a survey? The current subscription rate of WoW vs EQLive. Or how about subscription rates of both games at their peak population.

You went full troll bud.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 07:35 PM

You went full troll bud.

More making personal attacks instead of addressing content.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 07:37 PM

I took a nap, and this is still going on? Damn. Just drop it.

WoW crusaders will always win, because they like to beat dead horses.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 07:38 PM

I took a nap, and this is still going on? Damn. Just drop it.

WoW crusaders will always win, because they like to beat dead horses.

Once again, you are ignoring the content in order to make personal attacks. Please take these to PMs if you do not want to add to the discussion.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 07:50 PM

Once again, you are ignoring the content in order to make personal attacks. Please take these to PMs if you do not want to add to the discussion.

I basically disregarded your comment because it made no sense. He said that people would disagree with the statement that timesinks are considered increased difficulty. WoW subscription counts have no bearing on anything.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 07:52 PM

I basically disregarded your comment because it made no sense. He said that people would disagree with the statement that timesinks are considered increased difficulty. WoW subscription counts have no bearing on anything.

Reading comprehension fail.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 08:04 PM

Difficulty as in, dodgding attacks, room movements, room transformation, vehicles (eh..), phases, positioning, constant movement. Being alert and responsive at ALL times, no sitting and medding after each nuke. Managing mana was very important during some encounters as well since you can't sit and med. There is a lot more than just pushing a rotation, but you raided in WoW right(You didn't.), so you know this I assume?

Corpse runs and xp loss are fun? They give an "oh crap I better be careful" feeling, which is ok, but going all out and being wild and trying new things with smaller penalties can be fun too, right?

Yes about 1-10 seconds worth...

Because the majority of people like to get to the much more exciting and involved end game than the leveling process. Especially newer players trying to catch up to their friends. It's the same damn thing anyway, in EQ you grind pointlessly, in WoW you grind with an objective, it's still a grind.

Most quests in EQ are also trivial and pointless, or have very small risk/time vs reward in the long run.

Oh boohoo, now you're crying about addons? Fun fact: Addons work off of log files and combat cues which are already displayed in the client one way or another. Addons just help visualize many things and make them easier to understand. Why is helping a tank maintain aggro more consistently bad? You like to pull aggro and wipe? Are you kidding me? You also played a Mage, not some sort of tank. If you think tanking in EQ is the least bit difficult, you are a fool.

Once again you come up with a stupid post. Well done. You flip flop all over with your opinions, and still find the need to make all of these comparisons to a game you know little about (end game wise).

QFT, the minority of MMO players who hate WoW always seem to be the most vocal though of course.

Its funny cause I don't hate WoW but you kieep drawing stupid conclusions. The vast majority of both EQ and WoW isn't challenging. I'm sorry if you had trouble doing the dance in Nax. From your assesment of what is difficult in WoW it sounds like you were the guy constantly dieing to lack of awarness.

I guess the reaosn I conclude EQ to be difficult is that neither of the parts of WoW or EQ that are in your control are very difficult. So all that is left is RNG.

Vehicles.. oh the lulz....

Atmas

08-22-2012, 08:05 PM

Reading comprehension fail.

Yes, you have had several.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 08:16 PM

You guys want hard go play Darksouls. Trying to claim a game that 12 million play is hard because the top end encounters have you do repetitive patterns of dodging is difficult is fail.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 08:19 PM

You guys want hard go play Darksouls. Trying to claim a game that 12 million play is hard because the top end encounters have you do repetitive patterns of dodging is difficult is fail.

Darksouls isn't hard, I've beaten it 20+ times. It's pattern learning, being familiar with your equipment, environment, and enemies. I had no difficultly with the game (minus a few bosses) after about 5-10 hours play time.

You obviously haven't played dark souls, considering it's all repetive patterns of dodging.

Atmas

08-22-2012, 08:25 PM

Notice in my post I put: vehicles (eh..). I was never thrilled with the vehicles, but it did add more mechanics to the game, and they have been improved too honestly.

The only way to die in an EQ raid is lack of awareness as well for your information. You didn't raid in WoW, now I don't think you raided in EQ either, I fail to see how you have an educated opinion on anything.

Well then it is established what you think is stupid. Sorry if that doesn't have a graph or chart with it but after being disproven you keep squawking that like a broken record with no evidence.

You can keep insulting people's "reading comprehension" and whatnot, but he's right. Honestly, your posts are a mess of terrible spelling, made up words, and awful grammatical errors. Yes this is just a video game forum, but before you insult someone on those levels, check yourself. (before you wreck yoself)

Well he has twice accused me of trying to discredit people by saying they didn't play certain games. Which you just did for the third time. Seeing how he can't even differentiate (not a made up word just because you don't know it) between the two of us it is hard to take that seriously.

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 08:27 PM

Well then it is established what you think is stupid. Sorry if that doesn't have a graph or chart with it but after being disproven you keep squawking that like a broken record with no evidence.

Well he has twice accused me of trying to discredit people by saying they didn't play certain games. Which you just did for the third time. Seeing how he can't even differentiate (not a made up word just because you don't know it) between the two of us it is hard to take that seriously.

Hey you're making personal attacks instead of addressing the content again.

Diggles

08-22-2012, 08:30 PM

Want a survey? The current subscription rate of WoW vs EQLive. Or how about subscription rates of both games at their peak population.

Problem with that is that EQ at its peak was amazing for any other mmo on the market, and any game in general that had more than 100k players was god tier (i believe EQ peaked at 500k-600k. That popularity brought MMOs to the spotlight, where WoW's vanilla market (log in for 15 minutes, have fun, log off) took over because EQ was still heavy in the "hard core" market. And WoW had a following from WC3/SC

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 08:34 PM

Problem with that is that EQ at its peak was amazing for any other mmo on the market, and any game in general that had more than 100k players was god tier (i believe EQ peaked at 500k-600k. That popularity brought MMOs to the spotlight, where WoW's vanilla market (log in for 15 minutes, have fun, log off) took over because EQ was still heavy in the "hard core" market. And WoW had a following from WC3/SC

The point still stands that WoW had a greater subscription rate than EQ did (this is probably true for any point in WoWs life), which is the point and why we're trying to have a discussion about where WoW went right (well I guess that was over a long time ago though).

Diggles

08-22-2012, 08:37 PM

Atmas

08-22-2012, 08:40 PM

You posted before about wanting to just delete your previous posts in this thread. Well how about you walk your ass on out of here then once and for all. At this point, you're flip flopping all over the place, and just seem to be responding purely out of defense for yourself. You aren't making any new or useful points, you aren't responding to any points, and are literally just adding to your post count.

You also posted your WoW armory don't forget, so we have facts that you have little to no end game WoW experience (regular dungeons lol). Move on already.

Also, don't try and insult my intelligence acting like I don't know what differentiate means. As I said before, You can't spell, even with built in auto-correct, and your posts are just a mess most of the time. Let's not forget made up words like "projectionalism".

Actually I wrote projectionism. I think I should have said you are projecting, but either way you are wrong again. You couldn't even cut and paste. You also obviously have never seen my WoW armory because it is not accessible due to inactivity.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 08:40 PM

The point still stands that WoW had a greater subscription rate than EQ did (this is probably true for any point in WoWs life), which is the point and why we're trying to have a discussion about where WoW went right (well I guess that was over a long time ago though).

WoW only has like 5 million REAL subs. NA and EU servers have about 2.5 million each. Asia has the supposed other 7 million. The subscription model is different in Asia, where you pay for time, not by month. So any account with active time, is still considered active. Even if there hasn't been action on said account.

Diggles

08-22-2012, 08:44 PM

it's down to like 1.7 mill on us and 1.8-1.9 on EU

Diggles

08-22-2012, 08:50 PM

Source? If it's not right from blizzard or investors in some shape or form, it isn't a source. I'm curious though.

Q1 2011 - 600,000 subscribers lost
Q2 2011 - 300,000 subscribers lost
Q3 2011 - 800,000 subscribers lost
Q4 2011 - 100,000 subscribers lost.
Q1 2012 - 0 subscribers lost.
Q2 2012 - 1,100,000 subscribers lost.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2872-WoW-Loses-1-1-Million-Subscibers-Down-to-9-1-Million

Like it was said earlier, the Asia subs don't fluctuate, because the cafes and such that you buy time at are permanently enabled and you have to buy time on a user basis at the cafe.

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 08:52 PM

Number of US characters:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-2&factionid=-1&minlevel=10&maxlevel=85&servertypeid=-1

Number of EU characters:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-3&factionid=-1&minlevel=10&maxlevel=85&servertypeid=-1

EDIT: Census from the addon. It's just characters, not accounts, so the actual number of accounts is lower than that. I would imagine this doesn't catch every character, but it catches at least 90% (Some of which are actually free accounts using the free to level 20.)

bluntfang

08-22-2012, 08:52 PM

The problem with that is you're trying to compare sub rates when the games were practically in a different era. If EQ jumped out in 2004 when the market was ripe for the picking we'd have a whole different story.

also I have endgame experience (wotlk :3)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/durotan/Begson/simple

Umm WoW wouldn't exist without EQ. WoW took EQs model and built upon it to make a better game that appeals to a wider audience.

Edit: better is subjective, obviously, but if subscription rates are how we're measuring success, than WoW is better, hands down.

Diggles

08-22-2012, 08:53 PM

They lose more than what EQ ever had in quarters alone, damn. I don't see myself going back to WoW, but I have a feeling those subs are gonna jump again next month after the new expansion. If you're here to bash WoW and stuff like these other tools, please walk your ass out now though, thanks.

There's a reason i linked my armory and it wasn't a dead link :p

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightbringer/Diggles/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Doublestep/simple

lawll

08-22-2012, 09:13 PM

They lose more than what EQ ever had in quarters alone, damn. I don't see myself going back to WoW, but I have a feeling those subs are gonna jump again next month after the new expansion. If you're here to bash WoW and stuff like these other tools, please walk your ass out now though, thanks.

Maybe WoW is hitting the cap for the amount of people in the world that would pay to play a mmo each month. I think 9-11 mil people is a lot for a online game that isn't free and a ton more than anyone else has done.

Diggles

08-22-2012, 09:15 PM

and once again we go to the "7 million of that is cyber cafes in Asia" fact

lawll

08-22-2012, 09:17 PM

and once again we go to the "7 million of that is cyber cafes in Asia" fact

Who cares if it's overseas, it's a game a lot of people around the world want to play. How many subs did EQ have outside of america at it's prime? Also people who say that act like the mmo they play should be a special club that only people who are like minded and from the same country should be able to play.

Diggles

08-22-2012, 09:22 PM

...you're completely missing the point

lawll

08-22-2012, 09:24 PM

...you're completely missing the point

Well please enlighten us all on the this point your trying to make.

Kika Maslyaka

08-22-2012, 09:27 PM

OMG... 24 hours ago the thread was at page 4 and everyone was happy...

Now we are at page 21, and entire intelligent content of last 17 pages can be summarized in about 2 paragraphs total with everything else being nothing but flames.

/sad

Dirtnap

08-22-2012, 09:35 PM

Well please enlighten us all on the this point your trying to make.

The 7 million subs from asia are not all active players. They are considered active because in Asia you buy time (a number of hours) instead of for a month. You use up your time as /played. Any account that didn't use up their bought time, is still "active". Regardless of if they quit or not.

Sularys

08-22-2012, 10:24 PM

Instanced raiding. Gave everyone an equal shot at end game content and still made it a challenge.

Anesthia

08-23-2012, 05:23 AM

Microaccomplishments.
Instanced high-end content.
Instanced PvP.
Itemized quest hubs.
Robust graphics engine by which all other engines are judged. Jerky combat? Fail.
Smart people listening to players instead of smoking crack and EQ2ing themselves into irrelevance.
Panda bears, farmville, and pokemon. Played by both 12 and 35 year olds. Unstoppable moneyhat juggernaut.

Swish

08-23-2012, 10:14 AM

Microaccomplishments.
...
Panda bears, farmville, and pokemon. Played by both 12 and 35 year olds. Unstoppable moneyhat juggernaut.

I hated the accomplishments, I thought they were quite detrimental towards the end of WOTLK. It was getting as stupid as logging in, doing a /dance emote. They should have kept it to proper milestones - arena scores, cleared content etc.

As for pandas...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TiYRBSkK0

Diggles

08-23-2012, 10:53 AM

i dont see why pandas are such a big deal, i mean fuck, we've had silly midget people, anthropomorphic cows, space goats, and wolfpeople, why is a panda so much different?

although i play a shooter stylized on a 60s spy movie cartoon so v0v

Swish

08-23-2012, 11:09 AM

Well, pandas combined with monks? It's unoriginal, it's Kung Fu Panda.

Diggles

08-23-2012, 11:31 AM

Well, pandas combined with monks? It's unoriginal, it's Kung Fu Panda.

panda monks have been in the "lore" since WC3.

Dirtnap

08-23-2012, 12:54 PM

I want to play a Bear Monk. I however, never wanted to be Kung Fu Panda. =/

Diggles

08-23-2012, 12:55 PM

wc3 came out before kung fu panda just fyi

Dirtnap

08-23-2012, 12:57 PM

I know Pandaren are in the lore, I just don't really like pandas. Bears are awesome, but not pandas. =/

Diggles

08-23-2012, 01:42 PM

i think you can make your character have red panda skin?

i dunno

I'm probably going to make a twink pandaren monk and then have a draenei or something that i actually level. or have em both at 90 until tri-spec is released

lawll

08-23-2012, 01:44 PM

I know Pandaren are in the lore, I just don't really like pandas. Bears are awesome, but not pandas. =/

What other race would you use with a Asian themed expansion?

Diggles

08-23-2012, 01:57 PM

koi fish murloc race

lawll

08-23-2012, 01:59 PM

Now your just trolling us all square with that location comment and the wow avatar lol!

Messianic

08-23-2012, 02:06 PM

Now your just trolling us all square with that location comment and the wow avatar lol!

lol, awesome

Diggles

08-23-2012, 02:07 PM

http://tbukach.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/394050_10150511177568360_684923359_8623604_8041688 13_n-copy.jpg

lawll

08-23-2012, 02:09 PM

http://tbukach.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/394050_10150511177568360_684923359_8623604_8041688 13_n-copy.jpg

Oh god... I want one!

Messianic

08-23-2012, 02:19 PM

I don't appreciate you stealing pictures of me off my facebook :(

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/25435284.jpg

lawll

08-23-2012, 02:28 PM

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/25435284.jpg

I don't get it.....

Messianic

08-23-2012, 02:30 PM

I don't get it.....

Rift is basically a wow clone.

Diggles

08-23-2012, 02:48 PM

If water caused Clarity in EQ i wouldnt play any other game

Houdiny

08-23-2012, 05:53 PM

Rift is basically a wow clone.

What I played of Rift (max level, GSB raiding, and HK+ some scattered events) was much like my experience in WoW. Short lived. And easy. Didn't hold my interest very long.

Sebastionleo

08-23-2012, 07:02 PM

WoW did one thing that every game since has introduced, and that's the ability to quest through the game rather than blindly grinding the next dungeon for EXP. They made gear easy to get, raids smaller, PvP bigger, and introduced an auction house. Battlegrounds allow you to play FPS style games like capture the flag and battlefield style point holding. Lore was more easily found, and already well known from the Warcraft games. Down time while soloing was practically removed entirely, and soloing was possible by all classes, not just select casters. The game was simply much more user friendly, you could pick it up and play for a few minutes and actually accomplish something worthwhile. For the casual gamer, which is a much larger percentage of the pool of gamers, WoW was the best, easy to pick up, easy to solo when you can't play long enough to form a group, and easy to form a group when you do want one.

rubinoff

08-23-2012, 07:56 PM

Its clear that no one posting here has high end raiding exp in both WOW and EQ other than square. Everything in WOW is significantly harder than EQ (other than the simple time required to do things). Cast sit cast sit cast sit, totally hard. Camp mob for hours at a time until spawn, impossibly hard. Die and CR while pissed off, hard. Square has stated it several times but just to clarify there is one big difference between WOW and EQ. Leveling is a major part of the total game experience in EQ, leveling in WOW doesn't mean anything other than to prepare you for the real game which starts at max level.

For a long time WOW had a great balance of what a casual player could do, a regular player, and a hard core player but sadly, starting with the sunwell debuff, blizzard decided $$$$$$ was more important that any thing else. The more stuff a bad player or casual player can do (and be rewarded like an elite player) the more bad and casual players would subscribe. We all know there are a lot more terrible/casual players than hardcore/or good players.

As for my vaulted raiding exp, did plenty of kunark velious and luclin on EQ, my RL friend is Dalnoth of Triality who some of you might know... so I got to see a lot of end game content (AUTO ATTACK LOL) after I quit.

In WOW I played a warrior. I cleared MC before BWL came out, cleared BWL before AQ 40, cleared aq 40 and naxx (before BC). In pvp I hit rank 11.

During BC i cleared kara -> BT in the appropriate order same as vanilla(including the annoying key/vial quests, Hand of Adal, etc). Duelist in s1-s3. Rage quit after not getting glad for the 3rd time and burn out off clearing BT. Came back did some sunwell and s4 quit again.

When wrath came out I bought it and played my alt a rogue. Cleared naxx with hardmodes (lol so hard) Did some legit hardmodes (nightfall title) and arena up to duelist ranking again but quit again, game looked to be going the wrong way.

Came back for one month and did some uld hardmodes quit again. Came back for two month during cata such an awful joke. Leveled my priest up to 85 did the entire deathwing thing without even reading strats full clear first time. Sat in a bg and healed for 10min without dieing with 2 dps on me. WOW is just awful now its sad...

I think this gives me a pretty good perspective with NO BS about what I have seen in both games, and square is dead on correct really.

Sebastionleo

08-23-2012, 08:04 PM

I've killed Lich King, Emp Ssra, all POP raid bosses, NToV. I've done end game raiding on both, and I agree, raiding on WoW is much more difficult than EQ raids. Its not difficult to get 100+ people and zerg Xegony, etc.

Dirtnap

08-23-2012, 10:37 PM

The issue you guys keep missing, is the fact that you are only looking at old raids from EQ. You fail to understand that the raid content around the time WoW released was about the same as WoWs content.

You can't judge EQs raid difficulty from just Classic - Velious. Of course WoWs content was harder, it was newer.

runlvlzero

08-24-2012, 12:39 AM

the main attraction to wow, i think, is that it doesn't need a huge time commitment. you can pick it up and play for an hour or two and see tangible progress and character progression. and unless you want to do bleeding edge progression stuff, raids can be done with 3-4 hours two nights a week.

wow is for people without much time. in a nutshell, wow is for the masses.

Thats its strongest and weakest point at the same time. I loved how quickly I could master it and how little time I spent grinding.

I hated how bored I got with it when I figured out the "systems" of each class, and got tired of seeing yet another run through the same instance and doing the same quests 20x on different characters.

WoW needs more depth, but its a great game.

Diggles

08-24-2012, 12:40 AM

HEY

HEY HEY HEY

I RAIDED IN WOW AND EQ

COME @ ME

runlvlzero

08-24-2012, 12:43 AM

HEY

HEY HEY HEY

I RAIDED IN WOW AND EQ

COME @ ME

YES, YES, BRO!

Diggles

08-24-2012, 01:10 AM

i leveled a warrior back in bc/wotlk

shit was hard

now you just hit victory rush and heal for 40%

Renk

08-24-2012, 01:40 AM

This thread probably belonged in off-topic(then RnF), so I'm not sure if many people are reading it anymore since it turned into a bit of a flame war, but here goes:
leveling in WOW doesn't mean anything other than to prepare you for the real game which starts at max level.
While many people feel this way(which is a completely legitimate way to feel), and it is probably more prevalent in recent expansions than in the original release, I've always felt much different. After burning out on the 51-60 grind of early EQ, followed by years of raiding and AA grinding, the leveling experience in WoW was such a breath of fresh air. The gameplay and quest structure was so much more dynamic, well designed, and just plain fun. Albeit a lot was soloable(/easymode) there were still elite quests and dungeons for those seeking group challenges. And I really loved the design and atmosphere of the original zones, like a previous poster had mentioned. Many classes played and felt very different, so it was a blast leveling up alts. I purposely put off getting 60 and raiding MC for awhile in order to enjoy everything the lower level game offered because it totally blew me away compared to EQ in the accessibility/fun department (though it obviously lacked some of the challenge and social aspects that make EQ and P99 so nostalgic).

Early in the thread some people were asking about WoW equivalents of P99. I play on The Rebirth that aims to be a (mostly) legit vanilla-WoW platform with 1x rates (many other emus have drastically increased rates and are more focused on the high end, leaving lower level stuff more broken). While my WoW-emu experience is pretty limited, it seems this one best captures old WoW in the way P1999 captures old EQ, and I kinda view them as sister projects even though they are not related. It isn't quite as polished as P1999, but it's quite good overall. Between P1999 and The Rebirth, I'm in old-school MMO heaven. Someone earlier mentioned a progression Emerald Dream server or such, which might also be quite compelling.

Not really trying to turn this into an advertisement, but just so I leave some basic info, an old thread in off-topic layed it out, although it is an old post and perhaps a little over-hyped. The population these days is more in the 50-150 range, while the other severs with boosted exp and more raid focus get more action it sounds.
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50261&highlight=vanilla

choklo

08-24-2012, 01:45 AM

Is it true that some veteran EQ players(or programmers) had a role in the making of WoW?

Renk

08-24-2012, 02:20 AM

Yes, it's true.

Two of the most notable are Rob Pardo and Jeffrey Kaplan. Kaplan was formerly Tigole < Legacy of Steel > and posted their guild news (and kept Tigole as his forum name as a Blizz dev), a premier raiding guild in the early days of EQ, and Pardo was the guild leader according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Kaplan_%28game_designer%29

They still maintain all the guild news posts that he wrote back in those days when they were doing the same content we're doing on P1999 now, where he not only gave updates on their guild progression, but also sometimes commented on the state and content of the game, which is probably what helped Blizzard become interested in him for their game, and thus helping lead to WoW's resounding quality and popularity. If you read some of them in detail (and also note the humor aspects), you'll see how even the raid guilds on P1999 are still trying to copy their swagger with rip-offs of their "Stalkers, Wanna-Be's and Unoriginal Bastards" sections and such.

http://legacyofsteel.net/archives/index (scroll down for the old ones by tigole)

I think there were many others, including Furor < Fires of Heaven > (probably the most famous name of old EQ raiding days), but I'd have to do more digging to find out for sure.

choklo

08-24-2012, 07:01 PM

Very interesting. It's obvious that these guys had huge potential to work with the WoW team on improving EQ. It also makes sense that they took many ideas from EQ. It makes me wonder if the WoW players or team members will go to Arenanet or SOE, etc to improve the game once again.

GDoubleYou

08-26-2012, 12:23 PM

Coming from a person who raided a fair amount in EQ and then a lot in WoW...

The one thing that WoW didn't give me that I always loved about EQ was a sense of danger. There's something about the "unknown" that intrigues me and in EQ I got that time and time again when the game was new. I can't tell you how many times I stared at screenshots of big guilds in VP, scanning the rooms and imagining what it'd feel like to be walking through it during a full pop.

The idea of a "corpse" in EQ is something that to me has been lost by all other games that have followed. It added a lot to the game, and although it wasn't for everyone, for me it provided a unique experience.

Sounds stupid but, I remember the first time I walked through corridors in NToV and seeing some of the later bosses in their little rooms and getting goosebumps, happy that I wasn't there alone :)

Anyone else feel the same way? Again I say this as someone who was a front runner for a while in WoW - led a progression guild for a while during vanilla and did every raid there, did every raid in BC, every raid in WOTLK, and I stopped raiding after beating the release Cata raids.

Now some of this might have been due to being younger, as I find my innocence and view on the world back then is different than it is for me now. Also, with P1999 and nearly everyone who plays knowing the in's and out's of almost every zone, a good bit of it is lost.

DatGrump

08-26-2012, 12:42 PM

WoW was fun untill they made it obvious that they were going for people cash. Mini-stores and half-assed Xpac's for all now. Same art, same crappy models.

I'm sorry but even with the current gen stuff, no game will come close to the immersion or the feeling of hard work paying off like EQ(now p99) or Vanilla UO.

Thanks again to the p99 guys for bringing the best PC gaming memories I had as a kid back. Not even looking at another MMO current or down the line since I've found this! :eek:

I tip my hat to you all.

Diggles

08-26-2012, 02:19 PM

man, you guys havent seen good content until you get expansions every 4 months for free.

<3 eve online

DatGrump

08-26-2012, 02:24 PM

All I'm saying is WoW use to be a social MMO (raids, RPing, world PvP, ect) and dumbed it down to the point where it's just a casual fling. Having people randomly use a menu to queue instead of making an effort to be social or a system where people just NEED on anything they can get their greedy hands on instead of helping others with lower gear. Good stuff right?

MMO's use to be about social interaction, not just using enough bodys to faceroll their way thru content as quick as they can to get gear. WoW started with something great and now have sunk low enough to cater to the only crowd they got.

Have fun with your mini-pet battles tho. Really looks fun, bet you like that kinda thing eh?

Diggles

08-26-2012, 02:27 PM

hey, don't hate on pokemon you asshole

Breeziyo

08-26-2012, 02:31 PM

half-assed Xpac's for all now. Same art, same crappy models.

This isn't really true. The closest you could get to calling an expansion half-assed is Cataclysm, but that's only if you focus on end game content. They completely revamped the 1-60 experience for that expac.

The problem most people have with WoW's current rate of content being pushed out is the fact that during Vanilla WoW, loads of new things(not just 7 boss raids lol Firelands, though to my understanding heroic ragnaros is one of the hardest WoW fights in history) each patch would be pushed out faster than they manage to now. And even then, each patch had much more substance comparitavely. WoW has been letting too much promised content go to the dump because Blizzard has either gotten complacent or doesn't have the work force to push it out, or maybe I could be wrong and they just don't like the end product.

For instance FL was supposed to be released with patch 4.1 and the troll dungeons were complete filler content. The War of the Ancients raid was scrapped and condensed into a shitty 5 man heroic. The Abyssal Maw was completely scrapped, though two of the bosses in Dragon Soul were supposedly going to be in that raid instead. The Malygos raid was supposed to be a full fledged raid as well rather than the Onyxia style one-boss room it came to. I'll probably get asked for a source here, but I can't find the alpha screenshots and data from WotLK I had saved. The only solid thing I can provide is the fact that blue dragonflight themed items are scattered throughout Naxxrammas. Anyway, it's things like this that people pick up on and it's seemingly gotten worse ever since WotLK.

MoP is looking like it will actually be nice in terms of quality and quantity of content available at launch(highest # of raid targets to date I believe), but we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out mid to late expansion. If the promised new models aren't scrapped as well(and there will be an uproar if they are), I think it will be enough to hold their audience and even bring back a sizeable portion of those who quit just like transmogrification has.

Here's to hoping WoW "goes right" again with MoP and makes better attempts to keep their game interesting. They're doing pretty well, but their subscription losses indicate they could probably stand to do better.

tl;dr Half-assery comes mostly from patch content(or lack thereof), not expansions. Expansions for the most part provide a huge amount of content that is very well polished.

twerklee

08-26-2012, 05:16 PM

WoW did and continues to do plenty of things right. They catered to all types of gamers ranging from the casual, few hours a week housewife to the hardcore poopsocker. When I was still raiding I always heard the hardcore people going on about how easy everything is, yet none of them quit. It still takes skill, coordination, and leadership to down hardmodes. I spent many nights wiping over and over again. Your casual lvl 85 may be able to use looking for raid and get some purps, but they will never be equal to the end game gear of hardmodes. That was the great thing about WoW. Everyone could obtain some degree of epicness.

WoW is still very much a social game. You pretty much have to be in a guild to progress through hardmodes or even become good at PvP. On my server there were even plenty of guilds for non-raiding social players.

Yes, WoW has plenty of 14 year olds compared to EQ's prime, but the ease of access to the internet, increased number of the younger generation on the internet, and tons of other factors are also responsible for this. Comparing the two eras is apples and elephants.

I enjoy p1999 largely for the nostalgia it invokes. Running through MM or unrest brings back many memories of when I was in high school holding a pillow over the back of the computer after my parents went to sleep to muffle the 56k modem and log on. It's still an extremely fun game for me. I love camping spawns and getting to know a group, waiting and waiting for that awesome item to drop, and the thrill I still get from difficult fights where I know if I die I will lose a lvl and have a very difficult corpse run ahead of me.

*shrug* Just my 2 cents. I only read through the first 2 pages of the thread so it's likely that I'm repeating a lot of what others have said. I'm just bored now that the server is down.

Dirtnap

08-27-2012, 03:32 AM

The problem most people have with WoW's current rate of content being pushed out is the fact that during Vanilla WoW, loads of new things(not just 7 boss raids lol Firelands, though to my understanding heroic ragnaros is one of the hardest WoW fights in history) each patch would be pushed out faster than they manage to now. And even then, each patch had much more substance comparitavely. WoW has been letting too much promised content go to the dump because Blizzard has either gotten complacent or doesn't have the work force to push it out, or maybe I could be wrong and they just don't like the end product.

I've been following the assumption that they fired most of the staff that created the game. I think all the content from day one, to TBC was planned out, and mostly created. Then they fired those guys, and now have half-assed workers doing all the new stuff. Fire the expensive workers, hire cheap ones = more money padding your pockets.

I saw a bunch of stuff a while back showing how the Emerald Dream, and Outlands had quite a lot worked on before an expansion was even considered.

choklo

08-27-2012, 08:49 AM

I've been following the assumption that they fired most of the staff that created the game. I think all the content from day one, to TBC was planned out, and mostly created. Then they fired those guys, and now have half-assed workers doing all the new stuff. Fire the expensive workers, hire cheap ones = more money padding your pockets.

I saw a bunch of stuff a while back showing how the Emerald Dream, and Outlands had quite a lot worked on before an expansion was even considered.

Isn't this how EQ started the spiral down the toilet?

Swish

08-27-2012, 10:02 AM

I enjoy p1999 largely for the nostalgia it invokes. Running through MM or unrest brings back many memories of when I was in high school holding a pillow over the back of the computer after my parents went to sleep to muffle the 56k modem and log on.

Haha, that's awesome - the day I threw my 56k modem out was a sad day...end of an era! :p

Raavak

08-27-2012, 03:27 PM

Is there a good free WoW emu out there?

Dirtnap

08-27-2012, 04:59 PM

Isn't this how EQ started the spiral down the toilet?

Yeah, a lot of companies use skilled/hardworking people to build something big. Then fire them all for people who can do patchwork for a lot cheaper.

Vladesch

09-10-2012, 07:28 AM

My thoughts on why so many people went from EQ to WOW....
(Not all of these are my particular reasons)
These opinions are all based on the state of the 2 games around the end of 2004. (ie OOW vs WOW classic)
- Soloing in eq was lots of downtime. WOW is pretty much constant killing for most classes.
- WOW graphics were superior.
- EQ put basic class spells behind raid mobs that were competed with. (that was the final straw for me. It wasn't fun playing an enchanter who couldn't mez the mobs in the level-appropriate zones. Actually it wasn't fun or unfun because I never got a group.)
- Competition for raid mobs and cockblocking. (I was on asian time. Not much fun playing just after the US. I remember well the anguish trying to get the ssra kill. Hmm... actually any good rare spawn was close to impossible. I eventually got ssra by "camping" the entrance to ssra and joining up with another guild to kill him.)
- Locked zones. Stupid idea and a PITA for raiding guilds having to continually reflag people as they replaced the guild hoppers.
- Raid oriented view of the game by the devs. Raid or die.

Arclanz

09-10-2012, 02:55 PM

Ferok

09-10-2012, 03:44 PM

WoW classic, take out all instancing: best game ever.

kaev

09-10-2012, 04:05 PM

I don't know one friend who went to WoW. They all just stopped playing MMOs since EQ morphed into a vastly different game and all other MMOs suck. And I disagree that the cartoonish graphics of WoW were an improvement.

My EQ friends who tried WoW were the same ones who went to DAOC. Most of them never returned from DAOC for the same reason you cite, although it was the morph to raid-centric content design that started in Kunark and took full flight in Velious that they despised. (Yes, Virginia, there were a fair few classic EQ players who abandoned EQ because of Velious. Not everybody loved Velious, damned near every player I hung out with pre-Kunark disliked it enough to stop playing EQ.)

The only people I know who stuck with WoW long-term are those for whom WoW was their first MMO, and pretty much everybody I knew who tried WoW as their first MMO stuck with it for years (most still play occasionally.) WoW apparently did a very good job of teaching new players to like it, that may be the most important thing Blizzard did right.