Dual wield is not classic

[Graki]

2 games mechanics not classic :

-Off hand can double attack before I have 150 in doublle attack skill.

-Weapons delay are independant : In classic EQ, off hand can hit ONLY at main hand delay.

In classic :
With 2 weapons with 22 delay, no problem

Primary 25, secondary 20 : off hand hit at : 0, 25, 50, 75 ect.
Primary 20, secondary 25 : off hand hit at : 0, 40, 80, 120 ect.

So to dps : fast in off hand, to up skill : fast in main hand (I remember that, game may chek if dual wied hit before check delay)

Rogue rangers warriors and monks are overpowered in the server.

I hop that will be corrected soon, I play rogue and I wanna see classic gameplay. (burning rapier power)

[Cheech]

0.o :confused:

[PearlJammzz]

You trying to state that offhand delay had no effect on the actual delay?

[Akame]

Got any facts to back up your claim? Old patch notes? Old Steel warrior parses?

[Bruman]

I don't know if this reliable enough, but for double attack not hitting till 150 for the offhand:

http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=abilities

(look at level 29)

[dali_lb]

He is right about it. I bet if someone digs a bit in old posts from SoE boards you will find something. Not something I am gonna do tho, but off hander was dependent on primary. The best thing was always to have same delay in primary and off hand to get maximum effect from dualwield.

How the actual mechanics and math's was done, I'm not sure off. But it should be possible to find something to back it up

[Jace]

I remember offhand being dictated by your main hand as well, maybe im just old school and never bothered to research it but I thought it was still like that on live until I read this post lol. Learn something new everyday!

[Akame]

I remember offhand being dictated by your main hand as well, maybe I'm just old school and never bothered to research it but I thought it was still like that on live until I read this post lol. Learn something new everyday!

If it ever was on live it hasn't been since at least 2003 or earlier, I've certainly never heard of such a thing and I was playing a warrior by 2003 and all the posts I can find on TSW and Sony's board state that the offhand being dependent on the primary is a myth.

I still can't find anywhere that shows warriors had the same skill check of 150 double attack to double attack with an offhand yet though.

[Omnimorph]

I remember in classic the primary was always the faster weapon and you could only dual wield when your primary had swung. T'is why wurmslayer, despite being very nice, had a downside (40dly!) i remember having it with a yak, and i would usually swing 4x every round, because the dly of my secondary weapon had been met.

[guineapig]

This explains why what people were telling me about offhand weapons never sounded right. They keep saying "put the best possible ratio in offhand" which is the same thing any sane person would say to use for the main hand.

I distinctly remember people using the hardest most bad-ass 1-handed weapon they could find into their offhand regardless of the delay but on this server people are doing the opposite.

[Phallax]

I remember somthing like this, cant remember the details but off hand delay didnt matter it was an off hand check in itself not a weapon delay check

[guineapig]

I'm having trouble finding anything to confirm this other than random posts by people on threads which I don't consider to be valid proof. So maybe I'm completely wrong about this one but back on live I was learning this stuff from the raid ranks on my server.
/shrug
I'll keep researching

[Akame]

This explains why what people were telling me about offhand weapons never sounded right. They keep saying "put the best possible ratio in offhand" which is the same thing any sane person would say to use for the main hand.

I distinctly remember people using the hardest most bad-ass 1-handed weapon they could find into their offhand regardless of the delay but on this server people are doing the opposite.

This was usually explained as a dmg bonus issue. Hardest hitter in the primary because you got a damage bonus in the primary hand, best ratio in the offhand because there was no damage bonus on a weapon in the offhand so you didn't get as much benefit out of the harder hitter of the two being in this hand.

You also wanted the slower weapon in your primary because you could not purchase AA's to make the primary hand swings un-repostable. 5/5 Slippary Attacks AA's made your offhand swings 100% immune to Riposte, so you can swing until kingdom come with your offhand, no additional incoming damage. Slowest hardest hitter gives you the most for your money on the primary hand with the least amount of incoming damage.

We try and mitigate damage as much as possible as tanks, cause that's what we do :)

[Yoite]

i think how it worked on live is your dual wield attacks were like a proc off of your main hand swings. On emu, it seems to be two independent swings which are each effected by the weapon delay equipped in that hand.

[Skaff]

I vaguely remember the offhand finally becoming independent after a certain point... but I have no clue when.

[guineapig]

I vaguely remember the offhand finally becoming independent after a certain point... but I have no clue when.

This is true, if you look at any current EQ forums they confirm this to be the case.

We just don't know when this change took place exactly and what the formula was before the change.

Personally I don't care either way, I just like doing EQ investigations. :D

[razorz]

Everytime your main hand hits, you have a chance to dual wield and double attack. This is why there is a "skill" for dual wielding, otherwise you would just train 1 point and it would work. This is also why you dont always swing your offhand, even if it only has an 18 delay while your main has a 22 delay.

It's probably reasonably simple to recode that part of the emu mechanics, if they wanted to do so. It's similar to a dice roll:

Main hand swings roll dice based on dual wield skill, high enough dice roll, offhand swings, another dice roll is done to check if main or offhand are going to double attack as well.

[JayFiveAlive]

It's definitely true, but yeah I go no source to back it up other than thats how it was when I played during classic.

Usually you wanted a nice fast weapon in mainhand and off hand you wanted highest damage regardless of delay in your offhand. It's good to know that is not the case right now as it really changes my weapon build (as I am sure it does a lot of people). Hopefully we can find a source to prove it and get it changed!

[Dantes]

I'll throw in my hat as somebody who remembers this bug existed - although just like everyone else I'm unable to find any old details.

[Akame]

The question (or complaint) that I think the original poster is trying to say is, was it a bug? or was it as "intended."

If it was a bug, Rogean has already said they'll be proactively fixing actual bugs in the game ahead of verant schedule because they should have been fixed by verant earlier. If it was working as intended, then we can pay attention to the OP and discuss classic vs not.

Frankly for this argument, I am with "not."

[YendorLootmonkey]

My understanding was you wanted the lowest delay weapon in your main hand to ensure the main-hand damage bonus got applied as many times as possible in a given time period (which caused the Moss-Covered Twig to be super-overpowered and consequently nerfed, and which is why rangers covet the rev whip.) Has this changed, not classic, or am I remembering incorrectly?

[Phallax]

The question (or complaint) that I think the original poster is trying to say is, was it a bug? or was it as "intended."

If it was a bug, Rogean has already said they'll be proactively fixing actual bugs in the game ahead of verant schedule because they should have been fixed by verant earlier. If it was working as intended, then we can pay attention to the OP and discuss classic vs not.

Frankly for this argument, I am with "not."

quote below answers if its a bug or not, probably the best explination of how it SHOULD work

Everytime your main hand hits, you have a chance to dual wield and double attack. This is why there is a "skill" for dual wielding, otherwise you would just train 1 point and it would work. This is also why you dont always swing your offhand, even if it only has an 18 delay while your main has a 22 delay.

It's probably reasonably simple to recode that part of the emu mechanics, if they wanted to do so. It's similar to a dice roll:

Main hand swings roll dice based on dual wield skill, high enough dice roll, offhand swings, another dice roll is done to check if main or offhand are going to double attack as well.

[Akame]

I think this is a more thorough example of how it should work:

Edit: NM this is just someones assumption, I'll try and see if I can find one of Yoda's old posts with actual parse information on.

[guineapig]

My understanding was you wanted the lowest delay weapon in your main hand to ensure the main-hand damage bonus got applied as many times as possible in a given time period (which caused the Moss-Covered Twig to be super-overpowered and consequently nerfed, and which is why rangers covet the rev whip.) Has this changed, not classic, or am I remembering incorrectly?

I was also under the impression that this is part of what made the moss covered twig so potent back in the day.

[khanable]

edit: everything I was able to dig up more or less stated that the offhand being dependent on the main hand was a myth

[Graki]

I remenber an other thing : if you had 2 same weapons, they did same damage.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I remenber an other thing : if you had 2 same weapons, they did same damage.

Until level 28, when you start to receive the damage bonus on your main hand.

[Nocte]

So now there are threads that claim melee classes are underpowered because of hit rates, and they're overpowered because of dual weild.

[pickled_heretic]

So now there are threads that claim melee classes are underpowered because of hit rates, and they're overpowered because of dual weild.
Neither thread has the relative strength of melee classes as the main thesis. All of them are appealing to the way things worked in classic as a source for their argument. This thread claims that DW is not working like it used to in classic. The other threads claim that mob/melee hit rates are inaccurate based on what was observed in classic (in fact, inaccurate mob hit rates were basically verified as true in one of the threads and has been modified). Therefore, none of them are in conflict with each other. If you want to make a point unrelated to "bugs" (this, and the others, were bug threads, after all) then you should find another forum as a soapbox for your diatribes because this isn't the right place for it.

[Nocte]

You're reading too much into my post. I was just making an observation based on two recent posts. I probably should have added a smiley or something. Smileys make it all better.

;)

[Akame]

You're reading too much into my post. I was just making an observation based on two recent posts. I probably should have added a smiley or something. Smileys make it all better.

;)

In Lotro when I played there was a saying on our server that you could not get mad at anything I say so long as I put a smiley after it :) Server rule.

[Jify]

I remember in classic the primary was always the faster weapon and you could only dual wield when your primary had swung. T'is why wurmslayer, despite being very nice, had a downside (40dly!) i remember having it with a yak, and i would usually swing 4x every round, because the dly of my secondary weapon had been met.

He's correct. I remember this as well.

Offhand would only swing with your main hand.

[Uaellaen]

Offhand would only swing with your main hand.

yes i agree

and offhand delay was meaningless ...

[Haynar]

I remember something too about offhand delay. I do not know exactly how it worked though.

Someone find something to back it up. I would be more than happy to see about adding this to our list, to possibly implement the mechanic. But I need something to back it up, and more details on how exactly it should work.

Haynar

[Vonblund]

I remember offhand being dictated by your main hand as well, maybe im just old school and never bothered to research it but I thought it was still like that on live until I read this post lol. Learn something new everyday!

I'm with you there!

[Jify]

I remember something too about offhand delay. I do not know exactly how it worked though.

Someone find something to back it up. I would be more than happy to see about adding this to our list, to possibly implement the mechanic. But I need something to back it up, and more details on how exactly it should work.

Haynar

Close, but not exact:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010530060333/eq.castersrealm.com/faq/faq.asp?Action=Show&Class=Warrior


Q: Does a warrior get double attack with off hand when duel weilding?
A: Yes. But since you must first roll a successfual dual attack, and then roll a double attack, its frequency does not become apparent until higher levels.

ie: Your mainhand must swing before you get a chance of swinging your offhand.

[dojo420]

i don't read that quote as establishing a relation between main- and dual wield-attacks. to me it just means you can only get a double attack on your offhand if the dual wield check was successful (i.e. you swing your offhand).
it doesn't say anything about the (in-)dependence of main- & offhand.

i looked through alot of the patch history on allakhazam and couldn't find dual wield mentioned anywhere.

[Akame]

Dojo's right, rolling a check for a successful double attack still can be independent of a primary attack. You'd need to find parses from 2000 or so that showed the system only rolled a dual wield check after the primary.

I.e. it could be this:
... main hand swing check
... main hand double attack check
... offhand dual wield check
... offhand double attack check

but, if timer is independent eventually you are going to get those offhand swings coming in before the main hand swings in the parse, which is why you really need an actual parse over a FAQ statement like the one above.

The real fun part then is reading parses for riposte's. It's easiest with a 1hs/1hb setup so you can see crushes vs slashes, but what if it looks like this

... main hand slash!
... main hand slash!
... offhand crush!
... main hand slash!
... offhand crush!

That looks like you've just done two rounds of attacks and missed the offhand double attack, then the main hand double attack, and offhand double attack. When in reality you actually just riposted in the middle of your attack round.

... main hand slash!
... main hand slash! (double attack)
... offhand crush! (dual wield)
... main hand slash! (riposte)
... offhand crush! (double attack offhand)

Timestamps are pretty much a must at that point. Sadly, it looks like the steel warrior forums have been wiped of anything past 2004 :(

I do believe that a primary weapon will ALWAYS swing first when you hit attack, however from then on I believe the primary and offhand timer's are independent and which one will swing first after the initial round will depend on the specific weapon's delay.

[Kraun]

DW requiring the mainhand to swing was always a myth and proven wrong. Put a non melee weapon mainhand and watch as your offhand will still swing. Another way i remember it being tested was wurmslayer mainhand fs dagger offhand and the offhand swinging twice for every mainhand swing.

Another common melee myth that has been around since classic is that 10 delay is the lowest a weapon can go and that haste would not bring it any lower.

Moss covered twig was a overpowered weapon because of the dmg bonus being applied more often.

[Yoite]

Kraun has a good point. On live you could still duel wield attack even with a non weapon in main hand, just a a stein or more common, a bard's instrument.

Soo, hmmmmm.

[Kirdan]

DW requiring the mainhand to swing was always a myth and proven wrong. Put a non melee weapon mainhand and watch as your offhand will still swing. Another way i remember it being tested was wurmslayer mainhand fs dagger offhand and the offhand swinging twice for every mainhand swing.


This is how I remember it, but I didn't really start playing until Velious. The reason low delay weapons were best for mainhand was the more frequent application of the damage bonus, not for extra dual wield checks. The rule of thumb was lowest delay mainhand, best ratio offhand.

[Pyrocat]

Close, but not exact:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010530060333/eq.castersrealm.com/faq/faq.asp?Action=Show&Class=Warrior


Q: Does a warrior get double attack with off hand when duel weilding?
A: Yes. But since you must first roll a successfual dual attack, and then roll a double attack, its frequency does not become apparent until higher levels.

ie: Your mainhand must swing before you get a chance of swinging your offhand.

I don't think your IE follows. That statement in no way implies that a dual wield check happens based on the mainhand. He doesn't state what triggers rolling a successful dual attack.

[Pyrocat]

There's also this thread:

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=119

there was a test way way way back in the day with a lammy in secondary and shimmering partisan in primary. the lammy even swang when the shimmering partisan didn't. but yes get something with a good ratio. like jarsath trident i picked up for 40pp!!

put a wurmslayer in main and a lammy in off and you can watch the offhand swinging independantly. the reason ratio is so important over speed in offhand is because there is no damage bounous, so you want it to the best weapon it can be for the most dps/taunt/whatever.

The shortest test is put a GLS mainhand and whatever weapon you want off

[letsdance]

the OP is right. i was just reading that it was implemented differently here and wondered. i am 100 % sure because this was the (not too long) first time when i bothered about such mechanics and spend much time with them. it is also how it was intended (since this has been questioned in this thread).

i tried but could not find any data to back it up. though, of course, the data found on the net is flawed anyways because many "wrong facts" have been known have been known back then (like jig of vigor boosting mana regen *lol*). for example i have found a few sites that claimed, dual wield was always only triggered when you swinged with your main hand (which is wrong of course because it was only until lvl 30).

all these posts that people quote here to prove differently do not talk about any levels and are from far later times in EQ when anyone got to lvl 30 alot faster and below lvl 30 wouldn't really bother. i assume (like all info that i found) that those people are all above lvl 30 and therefore it works differently.

[Pescador]

lol....

How do you explain people who used wurmy in mainhand and something fast (like lupine dagger) in offhand? Do you really think the dagger could only swing when the wurmy swings? Anyways, it's been well researched and documented that weapons work independently. Check these forums or steel warrior archives or monkly business archives etc.

[letsdance]

as far as i read in this forum, nothing is proven at all. everyone who finds a "proof" that dual wield worked as it is implemented here, links something that is posted by high levels (where dual wield indeed works this way) at much later points of time when lvls below 30 didn't matter.

to answer your question: i explain this by these people being higher than lvl 30.