Pulling while Invisible

[Treats]

As is right now on P99 you can cast on a mob while someone else is casting Invisibility on you and ONLY aggro the mob you were casting on while running anywhere you please in the zone. Logged on EQMac to see if this actually worked.

Different types of spells there seem to give different results
Some will break the Invis once the spell has finished (Bolts/Lifetaps/Anything that seems to be emitting or having an effect on the player from a spell)

The above however doesn't really matter. In all of the scenarios I tried while keeping the Invisibility up it did not work. None of these mobs could See Invis.

Scenario 1:

Shaman started Invis on me
Casted spell on one mob in a pack of two
Spell lands while Invisible
Both mobs aggro disregarding the Invis that was cast on me

Scenario 2:

Aggroed one mob
Rooted mob and built aggro
Shaman Invis'd me
Ran through a pack of about 4 mobs (No aggro on them while Invis)
Root wears off original mob
Paths through the pack of mobs I ran through
Every one of them aggro'd disregarding my Invis as the original mob ran through them

I just don't see how Invis pulling through packs on Live was possible. I sure don't remember it. It would have been a huge mechanic flaw that would have been fixed ASAP.

Does anyone have any hard evidence that this was possible on Live during the Kunark/Velious Era? It certainly is not on the PoP locked server.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Only my own testimony. I used my CoS for this all the time. I would DoT the evil eye in LGuk (while still low enough level to aggro random live frogs) pop invis with CoS and then run back through to the undead bridge, IVU, and then continue running all the way to Frenzy or Lord... only the evil eye would follow me to camp.

There are many other places where I did similar things. The evil eye was just the most fun.

[Xadion]

There was a reason why they nerfed the CoS- there is a reason why it was selling for millions of plat during velious and luclin.... CoS single pulling worked on live, it just was not as widely known- as did fd-stand/hide pulling- it was this way on live I believe throughout Luclin or close to the end of Luclin.

Why are we having this discussion AGAIN? we have had it about 3 or 4 times now... invs pulling worked on live and works as it should on p99

[Treats]

There was a reason why they nerfed the CoS- there is a reason why it was selling for millions of plat during velious and luclin.... CoS single pulling worked on live, it just was not as widely known- as did fd-stand/hide pulling- it was this way on live I believe throughout Luclin or close to the end of Luclin.

Why are we having this discussion AGAIN? we have had it about 3 or 4 times now... invs pulling worked on live and works as it should on p99

The reason why it did work in some areas was because of FACTION. Some mobs simply did not assist others because of this. Yes you could run through a pack of mobs while invisible as long as they did not see invis and assist the NPC that was chasing you.

I'm sure some people did believe that the CoS single pulling did work on Live. They simply did not understand the mechanics of what was happening. Most likely while they were pulling they got lucky and performed a successful mem blur on all of the mobs while feigning and thought it was because of their Circlet. The same with Hide.

Here are a few examples of how it works currently on P99 and why it is a little far fetched.

Example 1

Lets say I want to pull Fungi King (or the PH in Sebilis)
Monk casts Pumice on Fungi King
Other player invises Monk before Pumice hits Fungi King
Monk is invisible as Pumice hits
At this point aggro and assist should be checked from the Fungi King NOT the player (see Example 2 of why this is really fucked up)
Monk runs away invisible (nothing the Monk runs by at this point should be aggroing)
Fungi King chases after him and should be passing aggro to everything that comes into assist radius
Just because the Monk is Invisible does not mean the Fungi King cannot see him (he is on his hate list afterall)
The other NPCs cannot see the Monk but they can see the Fungi King
This should not prevent Fungi King from passing his hate list and asking for assist
Any NPC that would normally assist Fungi King should

Example 2

Lets say now I want to pull Tolapumj
Tolapumj sees invisible
Monk casts Pumice on Tolapumj
Tolapumj aggroes Monk, begins chasing him and passing his aggro list to all other Juggs in the area
Monk pops an Invis potion
Monk Feigns Death
Monk Stands up and if a successful mem blur was not performed on Tolapumj he continues chasing him
All other Juggs disregard assist and return to spawn/pathing because Monk is invisible
Tolapumj sees invisible, he can definately see the player so shouldn't he be passing his aggro?
So it does not even matter if the NPC you are pulling can See invisible or not it still WILL NOT pass the hate list to others
Again aggro is being checked from the player and not the NPC, this cannot be correct

Example 3

Lets fast forward to Velious
Say we have a Monk that is in West Temple of Veeshan, he is Ally to Claws of Veeshan
This Monk wants to pull Gozzrem to the West ToV zone out
Using the tactics explained above this is all the Monk would have to do
Monk aggros Gozzrem
As long as the Monk is moving by the other NPCS in West ToV (CoV faction) and Gozzrem is far enough behind they will not assist
While the Monk is moving by them they are checking his faction and seeing that he is Ally
It would not matter when Gozzrem is passing by the other NPCS
Again the aggro is being checked at the player and NOT the NPC (he is Ally and not in assist radius of the NPC he has aggro'd)

This is the exact same premise, only using faction instead of invisible (even though invis is a faction modifier)

[baub]

I admittedly skimmed this thread. Invis pulling is possible on Al'Kabor, for example:

The kromzek captain in WW for bracer of bene

He sees invis, his 8 (or whatever) adds do not.

Step 1. Be invis
Step 2. Body pull
Step 3. He's single

[Xadion]

As for your verbose explanation about faction vs invs vs hide etc...

all KoS/agro/etc IS - is faction ... even while agroed upon a mob if you hide you will see your faction change to threat- so while you are going on about differing WAYS to pull and how they are faction or invs related- it all is the same, invs is faction- hence why you can do the Shadowknight epic with hide turn ins- and yes that is classic and proper workings.

The WAYS of pulling yes changes the outcome- if you- as baub says pull the kromzek captian by prox agro while invs then he will be solo if you get away from him once agroed before he hits you and breaks invs while in range of other mobs- this is also the same for your tolojump example- there is no reason to throw or cast anything on tolo - just get within agro range while invs and he will be solo (providing no juggs are random see invs). So I am sorry I did not go into paragraphs of random examples etc etc to say that I disagree with you and everything is working as it should on p99 within a VERY acceptable reason when it comes to pulling/invs/doubbleinvs etc- I am also sorry if you did not know that this issue has indeed been discussed many, many times in the past- and not just this issue but the FD/Invs/pulling/doubble invs has indeed been talked about in depth- so I am nicely then trying to inform you of this- and I am sorry and I am not trying to troll you- but the issues you have are with known, working, proper game mechianics vs what you think should happen. I admit, I was a shadowknight on live from April 1999 untill like oow/GoD kinda- mostly quit after finishing time... so I am not exactly sure on all the minor nuances of a monk...

edit:
It is also why npcs while you are invs will talk to you etc as if your faction is correct- do note many patch notes that warn you not to interact with quest giver while invs as it may lead you to belive you have the wrong faction- also I belive there was a patch that did infact change how invs worked and how agro generation worked while being invs etc- I will have to search some of the patch records- but I am 95% sure they where after or at the end of luclin.

[Treats]

I admittedly skimmed this thread. Invis pulling is possible on Al'Kabor, for example:

The kromzek captain in WW for bracer of bene

He sees invis, his 8 (or whatever) adds do not.

Step 1. Be invis
Step 2. Body pull
Step 3. He's single

This could have something to do with one or all of the giants being set to the wrong faction to assist, I do not know. This is what I found.

See here about halfway down the page:

http://www.castle-grounds.co.uk/eq/benevolence.htm

*WARNING* - It seems that someone is not amused at the way the Captain is being singled out, and that wandering Dragons are AIDING the Giants. *sigh* So keep an eye out for those Dragons with 'I love Giants' t-shirts wandering around.

Also see here, no invis needed:

http://monklybusiness43508.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/773#.T_RdCKnB-uI

At 60, i just used proximity agro to pull him, i don't know if that works if you're below 60

it's duable with 1 monk (lvl61), 2 cleric (lvl56 and 61) and a shaman (lvl61), but sure not the right way to do it, warrior as MA is much more mana conserving than a monk as MA.
Pulling works fine w/o harmony and summoned shurikens

In response to Xadion --

all KoS/agro/etc IS - is faction ... even while agroed upon a mob if you hide you will see your faction change to threat- so while you are going on about differing WAYS to pull and how they are faction or invs related- it all is the same, invs is faction- hence why you can do the Shadowknight epic with hide turn ins- and yes that is classic and proper workings.

This is exactly what I explained in the third example.

Lets say an Enchanter on Project 1999 goes into West Freeport.
His faction is Kindly to the guards there.
This person wants to kill the Guard that is standing near the East Freeport zoneline.
He wants to pull the Guard out and through the front gates to the EC zoneline to kill.

In theory here on P99 he should be able to root the guard at the East Freeport zoneline and then run out without ANY aggro to the East Commons zone. When the root breaks the guard should come all by himself just like the way that Invis pulling works.

As he runs by each guard on his way out they will con Kindly to him.
When the root breaks and the Guard comes running to find him every single guard will assist him on the way out creating a huge mess of Guards.
Remember he conned ALLY as he ran by each of them on his way out yet they are still assisting the guard that the Enchanter had rooted.

Lets try something different now.
Enchanter roots the guard.
Enchanter runs out to the East Commonlands zoneline.
Enchanter invises himself.
He has now DROPPED his faction from Kindly to Indifferent on each one of the Guards that the rooted one will pass, yet NONE of them will assist.

Aggro is as you and I both have previously stated due to faction.
Why is it that the other Guards WILL aggro and change to Threatening when the player cons Kindly?
Why is it that the other Guards WILL NOT aggro when the player cons Indifferent?

Baub, is there any chance you can try and body pull Tolapumj the same way as the Kromzek Captain (or any see invis Jugg would work) on the Mac server and see what you find? I do not have a high enough level character there to test it.

[Xadion]

More on faction

faction is the mechanic used for if a mob attacks you, responds to hails, quest turn ins etc etc

however when you agro a mob- there are many things it does- mobs all react and do things differantly when agroed in certian ways- if you attack a mob - attack, spell, throwing somethign etc- it broadcasts its agro saying Xplayer is attacking me- in reality it just places "you" at that spot- an orc says "Xadion" orc lego will see "xadion" because his friend says so- but if I am invs he sees me and does nothing- but i have to be invs at the time of the agro initiated broadcast- now this WAS changed in a patch note somewhere - where the agro broadcast also SHARES 'faction' saying Xadion is here my faction is X he is Y- if yours it X it should be Y-

also agro range, and range of "broadcast" changes or /should/ by level- think of it as a radius around the mob you agroed- it gets smaller and smaller based on level of you vs mob-- I destinctly remeber on live there was a "magic" level in seb and lguk where even a warrior could single pull (56 or 58) by arrow or whatever- I dont think it works this way on p99 as i think the agro broadcast range is set rather than variant of level of player vs mob.

having direct / engaged agro on a mob sets a max faction- invs/hide etc has a set bump up of faction- this is so someone MAX kos invs still works- vs someone barely kos invs working but not max kos? its all numbers/levels.. you can see this by getting agro- con mob = ready to attack, invs - then con = threateningly- the invs is bumping up the faction to the "baseline of current status" engaged hostile baseline is threat- non engaged baseline is indiff- mobs do not share their status of engaged hostile status untill the patch change in late luclin/pop, they just share that X player is "there"

[Brinkman]

.
Why is it that the other Guards WILL aggro and change to Threatening when the player cons Kindly?
Why is it that the other Guards WILL NOT aggro when the player cons Indifferent?

Treats I understand your frustration, I do not like how this mechanic works either. However, this is classic and how it's supposed to work. When I was at the EQ Dallas fantasy faire 2001 there was a discussion that poped up about this.

Here is how a Dev layed it out to make it simple.

Invis is an automatic Indifferent, non-changing ( this is key ) faction status. Think of it as faction immunity. The ONLY way this faction can be changed is by removing invis, or something that can see invis can see through it. This faction immunity does not erase or " mem blur" anything already on your hate list, it does however "block" any hate from being transfered ( I.E. guards not careing about other guards chasing after an invis person)

You even answered your own question. you said " Why WILL guards agro and CHANGE to threat "

Change is the key word here. Your faction towards them changed.They are now pissed at you, which is why they give chase and attack.

They gives two shits about whats going on while you are invis, because they are indifferent towards you. And that indifferent status will not change because Invis will not allow it to. ( immunity )



When your invis, your faction is indifferent all the way.

[Treats]

Haven't checked this thread in awhile, missed your posts Brinkman.

That pretty much explains it then.

Only one question left:

If you are pulling an NPC that can See invisible, is it then able to pass it's hate onto other surrounding NPCs even if you are invisible?

[uygi]

Just have to point out, mobs that social aggro (which is almost any mob of consequence) will assist their buddies even against players with max warmly faction. The thing that prevents adds with invis, hide and whatever else is the mobs can't SEE the player.

Things like this were usually explained on Live as follows:
Mob1: Oh look, Soandso is my friend! Hi Soandso, I look upon you warmly!
Soandso punches Mob1 in the face!
Mob1: You asshole! I hate you now! You gunna die!
Soandso invises and runs away.
Mob1: I'm gonna catch you jerkface! I can still see you cus I'm so mad at you!
Mob1 runs past Mob2, Mob3, Mobn.
Mob2: There goes Mob1. I wonder why he's chasing after nothing and screaming? That guy has problems.

Applying logic to this just doesn't work. If we're going to apply logic, then you'd think Trakanon would spawn someplace else where there weren't 50+ characters logged out ready to kill him in the first 60 seconds. Trakanon says, "Crap, you guys again? I never thought you'd come back and kill me some more!" Verant created it, nobody said Verant was really thinking about it.

Edit: Also, the whole reason monks pull with sneak is because sneak makes you "invisible" to mobs whose backs are turned. I guess that should be removed too? Am I misunderstanding the mechanics? I always acted on that idea and it always worked on both Live and P99.

[Nirgon]

* Two people can camp the myconid spore king in sebilis. Without this its 3-4, and that's only if you have a really good monk, more like 5 if you actually have to sit on the spawn.
* All VP dragons are fought at the zone in, meaning its possible to kill them with 15 players rather than 25-30


This is where efforts are being made to keep this bug in the game.

When a mob is aggro'd or runs past another mob, it should make the bring a friend check. Invisibility doesn't matter.

[Nirgon]

Can a dev confirm here that if this does not work on Al'Kabor it is admissible as evidence?

It's pretty crazy to have this here, I cannot find ONE patch note that says that this was ever taken out or comment stating otherwise it was "intended" to be in the game.

[Ambrotos]

Cut the crap all of you. Either post links for proof of this TIME LINE or not.

[Nirgon]

The issue here is posting patch notes for something that was never broken in my opinion, much like the necro heal.

[happyhappy]

The issue here is posting patch notes for something that was never broken in my opinion, much like the necro heal.

Opinions are not proofs.

[Xadion]

Can a dev confirm here that if this does not work on Al'Kabor it is admissible as evidence?

It's pretty crazy to have this here, I cannot find ONE patch note that says that this was ever taken out or comment stating otherwise it was "intended" to be in the game.

the patch note you seek is one that talks about how mobs broadcast and assist vs invs players. All in all it was only a partial nerf to invs pulling.

pressing hide while casting I can agree can only be done now because of interface... But invs by other player while casting is fine and proper, as is sk/necro cos pulling.

[Nirgon]

Xadion, thanks, and can you post the patch note that I seek?

There's 2 ways to look at these bugs. One they make things easier for you, so defend them. Two, it's going to cause people to kill things or handle content they otherwise could not... and in the Velious raid scene that could stack up to a lot of stuff you guys in TMO might have been able to get otherwise. The best way is to do it the right way. Almost everyone who came here did because they wanted that true nostalgic experience.

As far as this bug goes, I'd say the same goes with the absolutely correct point that was made about NPCs attacking players who drag corpses of players they don't like.

(I appear to have the TMO forum militia on my tail but consider this: think of when you guys (being in the top raiding guild) are trying to hoard sleeper keys, others will be able to exploit this to maximize the number of targets killed while you're doing other things. The fact is, they're going to be able to clear content faster than they should because of this problem. Whereas, you guys have raided morning, afternoon and sometimes even prime time to secure your right (as you so often put it) to claim this content.)

[Xadion]

I have looked for it, but I did not have much luck- I am going based on what I remember the patch being about- also I seem to remember that it was late velious or luclin...so really it is out of the time line of the server imo.. researching it is when i stumbled across the PoHate zone out patch :-P <--this again is my bad memory so take it as you will

as debated the ability to press a ability (hide) while casting is something outside of a patch/nerf as it may have not physically been able to be done on the classic UI - therefor the need to nerf/change is dubious...

As for tagging someting pressing your CoS and booking it to the zone... unless something saw invs- the mobs that where agroed on your initial pull are the only mobs that come- and yes you could use a bow and invs before the arrow hit...:-)

[Nirgon]

I can't find the patch note that says mobs will treat dispels as a hostile action either but I can find a bunch of everlore posts clearly stating the approximate time of the patch and that reinforce my statement.

I'm on the prowl too!

[bamzal]

fact is invis pulling trivializes the game a lot. I'm not even playing everquest anymore.

[Xadion]

I can't find the patch note that says mobs will treat dispels as a hostile action either but I can find a bunch of everlore posts clearly stating the approximate time of the patch and that reinforce my statement.

I'm on the prowl too!

to be honest I was a kid in 99 and read patch notes with a SK filter in my mind... But what I remember of the despell change was a simple statement that it will now cause agro if successful.

as for the invs pulling... Sorry its 'leet hax' but it is a valid tactic and much like fd pulling... Not what they had in mind, but it became part of a classes skillset... The prenerf CoS is really what makes invs pulling worth a darn and imo if they wanted it gone, they would have retroactively nerfed the CoS not just replace it.

the nerf that kills invs killing has something along the lines of how mobs transfer their hatelist to other npc's...and again I am thinking its luclin or beyond as I pulled many a think in luclin cos style.

as it stood before the change mobs broadcasted the player target as it ran, the mobs that then 'hear' it make their own call check on 'agro/faction' after the change the mob passes its con to the mobs it passes if they are on the same faction. The drag corpse thing did not over do invs mods but simply made it so a ranger could not wonder into PoG and cr an entire raid.

[Nirgon]

Finding instances where an invis pull did work based on faction does not mean every single npc in the game should be invis pullable.

Some NPCs in live were single pullable as a body pull.

Others, like the mobs at the entrance area up to the bridges in seb should be single pullable by someone who is lvl 57 (I think) or higher. Invis has nothing to do with that.

Some mobs hang out around others that aren't part of their bring a friend list, and invis pulling may have worked for those. However, pulling single mobs in every dungeon or the ghoul lord to the evil eye spawn? No way heh. I, like others during the classic era have had an invis drop and rooted a mob, invis'd and ran. The mob would still train if it unrooted.

There's problems here that did not exist in Live and are problems based on the source code they were handed. Asking for patch notes on some things it just impossible because they were never broken.

The dispel patch note would cause mobs to aggro if you tried to dispel them at all. I looked high and low for this patch note and only found a reference to a player in 1999 stating "hey this doesn't work any more after this recent set of patch notes". So, there's a gap in the patch notes in the archives we've found so far.

[Nirgon]

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/bard_pulling.php

Nothing mentioned by Thott (who I'd say is a true EQ guru) regarding anything about invis pulling. He would certainly have known of it or mentioned it..?

[Daliant17447]

Wheres the thread about bards being able to cruise around VP at sow speed with rogue hide? Or are Nirgon/Treats not on to that one yet?

Good luck finding the patch notes about when this cool bard/ranger/halfling feature was added.
CLASSIC UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE :D

[Dullah]

Don't know if we'll ever find evidence one way or the other, but I don't remember it working like this on live. If you casted invis, it would only prevent you from agroing more mobs, not from preventing the agro'd mob from socialing. They didn't need to see you to assist.

[Daliant17447]

When an un-engaged mob encountered an engaged mob, the un-engaged mob would do 2 checks.

First, the un-engaged mob would check the engaged mob's faction, if the un-engaged mob was on the same faction or "buddies" with the engaged mob, it would social agro (regardless of whether or not it could see the engaged mob's target).

*If* the un-engaged mob wasn't on the same faction of the engaged mob, it would do a second faction check but this time on the engaged mob's target. If the engaged mob's target was KoS (scowling or threatening), the un-engaged mob would social agro. If the engaged mob's target was non-KoS (from invis or otherwise) the un-engaged mob would not social agro.

This means, using invis to pull mobs through other mobs without agroing them was possible, but only in situations where the mobs were on seperate factions. Mobs on the same faction would always assist each other even if a player was invis and the mobs couldn't see invis.

If you were "ally" in a city and you rooted a guard, your faction or "consider value" with that guard would change to "threateningly". Now if you ran through the city all the other guards would still consider you "ally". However, when your root wore off and the guard ran through the city, every guard he passed would social agro and also switch to "threateningly". In this example being invis wouldn't have changed the fact the guards will assist the other guard based on being "aligned" with that guard. This type of social agro is based off the mob, not the player, therefore being invis or not invis makes no difference.

An example where mobs would not social agro: A shadowknight snares the evil eye, then clicks circlet of shadows. He runs to a safe spot in the zone passing many frogs along the way but none of them see invis. As the evil eye passes each frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the eye (The SK) is indifferent (due to invis) = no social agro.

Lets say the SK's invis wears off, now when the evil eye passes a frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the evil eye (The SK) is now scowling (due to invis fading) = social agro.


Does this sound right to you guys? Cuz thats how I remember it. Being able to single pull a mob out of a group of mobs by having someone land an invis on you while you cast a spell is definitely not classic. Generally speaking when there is a group of mobs, they are all on the same faction and thus will social agro with each other. I'm about 95% sure this is how social agro worked, and yes I realize that means absolutely dick without evidence to support it.

[Daliant17447]

Oh, and since I don't really play here any more I guess I'll elaborate about the previous bug I mentioned. Sorry to anyone who is currently enjoying this bug. :p

Currently, any class or race that can both hide and sneak (bards, rangers, halflings) can move around while retaining the effects of hide.

To do this you simply:
1) Invis yourself
2) Hide successfully
3) Sneak successfully

When you move, you will recieve the "you have moved and are no longer hidden" message but the effects of hide will remain until either your invis wears off or you break sneak. Because you are already invisible, you can't test your hide on yourself. The only way to tell if your hide was successful is to con a mob that would normally see through invis.

Working as intended? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaTqWl_FyOU) I for one don't recall bards being able to stack selo's song of travel with rogue stealth but unfortunately I can't find any patch notes to support this wild claim! :D

[CrystalBlue]

This is another case where "the jig is up". Everyone knows about the bugs (errr "features") in this thread and its turned some of the gameplay into a bit of a joke.

When the "jig was up" in classic, and everyone and their mother started doing it, it was fixed.

Time to fix.


And lol @ "super bard" in the video above, funny stuff.

p.s. Halflings now the master race for sure. XP bonus and have the rogues ability to sneak/hide everywhere and anywhere. WTB race change for all my characters to Halfling, they need rogue sneak/hide mobility goodness.

[Xadion]

When an un-engaged mob encountered an engaged mob, the un-engaged mob would do 2 checks.

First, the un-engaged mob would check the engaged mob's faction, if the un-engaged mob was on the same faction or "buddies" with the engaged mob, it would social agro (regardless of whether or not it could see the engaged mob's target).

*If* the un-engaged mob wasn't on the same faction of the engaged mob, it would do a second faction check but this time on the engaged mob's target. If the engaged mob's target was KoS (scowling or threatening), the un-engaged mob would social agro. If the engaged mob's target was non-KoS (from invis or otherwise) the un-engaged mob would not social agro.

This means, using invis to pull mobs through other mobs without agroing them was possible, but only in situations where the mobs were on seperate factions. Mobs on the same faction would always assist each other even if a player was invis and the mobs couldn't see invis.

If you were "ally" in a city and you rooted a guard, your faction or "consider value" with that guard would change to "threateningly". Now if you ran through the city all the other guards would still consider you "ally". However, when your root wore off and the guard ran through the city, every guard he passed would social agro and also switch to "threateningly". In this example being invis wouldn't have changed the fact the guards will assist the other guard based on being "aligned" with that guard. This type of social agro is based off the mob, not the player, therefore being invis or not invis makes no difference.

An example where mobs would not social agro: A shadowknight snares the evil eye, then clicks circlet of shadows. He runs to a safe spot in the zone passing many frogs along the way but none of them see invis. As the evil eye passes each frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the eye (The SK) is indifferent (due to invis) = no social agro.

Lets say the SK's invis wears off, now when the evil eye passes a frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the evil eye (The SK) is now scowling (due to invis fading) = social agro.


Does this sound right to you guys? Cuz thats how I remember it. Being able to single pull a mob out of a group of mobs by having someone land an invis on you while you cast a spell is definitely not classic. Generally speaking when there is a group of mobs, they are all on the same faction and thus will social agro with each other. I'm about 95% sure this is how social agro worked, and yes I realize that means absolutely dick without evidence to support it.

I heart dalliant but this is not how it always was. There was a patch that effectively added the 2nd (or first on your explanation) check, I have not had time to look for it in depth but I may once I get back to work.

[Nizzarr]

on Eqmac i am ally to chardok i cannot invis pull singles, they all social

case closed. Fix this shit asap.

[CrystalBlue]

on Eqmac i am ally to chardok i cannot invis pull singles, they all social


I'll have to admit what is going on here with invisi pulling the whole zone is just as bad as the "perma pac" bug on EQmac. Sucks the fun straight out of the game.

[Treats]

It was stated earlier that they talked about this at the Dallas Fan Faire in 2001 -- It was actually in January of 2002.

I don't see how this is possible when I found this post dated 5/31/2001:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.games.everquest/jzcWAsNclWU

The last was the most devious, but also totally explainable.
I was in SolA. A goblin shaman was green to me, and thus too chicken to
attack me. However, he could see me, and this allowed him to share his hate
list with everyone around him. Meaning me. This is effectively a 0 mana,
instantaneous cast of see invis for every mob within normal aggro range (and
through walls).
This, still, didn't matter, until a Blue to Me non-casting melee goblin
of some description, wandered by. While he couldn't see me, he could take
the hate list of the shaman, and poof, he could instantly attack me. (I
love how invisibility doesn't actually make you invisible).
The kicker is, that since a BTM had aggroed on me... all the little
greenies took courage from him, and joined the fight.
So when I gated, I was busy bandaging quickly trying to fight the DOT
that that little shaman had stung me with... grrr, should have blasted it
out of its boots before it got help.

This is 6 months after Velious was released.

[Nirgon]

case closed. Fix this shit asap.

Verified on EQ Mac.

Nirgon and Nizzar agree (I really have no reason to agree with him on anything, yet here I am).

This is an essential fix to keep things fun and challenging. I would have thought this was an obvious fix as well. "Oh hey! People are using invis to single pull, how'd that get in there?"

I'll have to admit what is going on here with invisi pulling the whole zone is just as bad as the "perma pac" bug on EQmac. Sucks the fun straight out of the game.

Another one of my least faves but he's right!

[uygi]

I would just like to ask what the mechanic is that makes sneak different than invis, since the mob not being able to see the player is supposedly irrelevant. Or would your proposed fix apply to sneak as well?

[Nirgon]

Sneak allows you to retain "hide" where having invis casted on you does not. Minor difference, maybe not even worth noting. I think it was revealed here that another bug is in place that if you are under the effects of sneak/hide having an invis break from you during it makes it permanent. Relapse posted this somewhere, go test here.

Sneak + hide also grants invis + invis to undead, where invis is just to normal mobs that can't see invis.

Entirely obvious and probably not the answer you were looking for... but, what specifically do you mean?

If you're asking if someone should be able to single pull using sneak? Absolutely not, same with invis / invis to undead. I think, as Ambrotos pointed out, mob hate lists are not working correctly.

[Lucky]

who gives a fuk if it works on eqmac or not. it wasnt nerfed in like the 45th expansion literally and proll done crossed over there

just another classic straying

[Nirgon]

It doesn't allow single pulling on a "as it was" PoP server.

There is no patch note for it. Even better, it is just silly.

[uygi]

Sneak allows you to retain "hide" where having invis casted on you does not. Minor difference, maybe not even worth noting. I think it was revealed here that another bug is in place that if you are under the effects of sneak/hide having an invis break from you during it makes it permanent. Relapse posted this somewhere, go test here.

Sneak + hide also grants invis + invis to undead, where invis is just to normal mobs that can't see invis.

Entirely obvious and probably not the answer you were looking for... but, what specifically do you mean?

If you're asking if someone should be able to single pull using sneak? Absolutely not, same with invis / invis to undead. I think, as Ambrotos pointed out, mob hate lists are not working correctly.

That's not what I'm talking about.

Monks pull by tagging and running back, then FDing. They then sneak, so that when the mobs turn their backs to go home, they can't see the monk. The monk then tags again while sneaking, and only the mob that was attacked will notice because the others can't "see" the monk. As I'm sure you know, mobs can always "see" players they have aggro on. As has been said, Verant never had any idea FD would be used this way when they gave it to the monk class, so that very thoroughly throws the "never intended" argument out the window. The real question is is it classic, and I never played a monk but I'm pretty sure what I'm describing is how monks always pulled on live.

Not trolling here, just can't see how this is really any different from using invis. Invis, IVU, hide and sneak all do the same thing: they make the mob unable to perceive the player. Different forms of functional "invis", and different combinations behave somewhat differently, but they all set faction to "indifferent" when in effect.

[Nirgon]

Okay I see your point, yes I observed monks pulling single mobs like that in groups. As far as there being any mobs that do not behave that way? I would have to research or ask a classic monk guru (yes I can find one). I always felt it had more to do with the mobs deciding to path back sooner or later with the one you'd try and get single sticking around. So there was a bit of a luck of the draw to getting the perfect mob split and often I remember it was in some cases a job performed by 2 monks, especially given the aggro range of some npcs and splitting them off from each other.

Before we get into all that and really boil this down, I'd like to know if we've compiled enough evidence to burn down the current invis pull tactics. From there, I think the monk pull mechanics need to be investigated and ensured that they are not broken in the process.

[Daliant17447]

but how will TMO pull VP dragons to the zone in!?!?!?!

[Treats]

That's not what I'm talking about.

Monks pull by tagging and running back, then FDing. They then sneak, so that when the mobs turn their backs to go home, they can't see the monk. The monk then tags again while sneaking, and only the mob that was attacked will notice because the others can't "see" the monk. As I'm sure you know, mobs can always "see" players they have aggro on. As has been said, Verant never had any idea FD would be used this way when they gave it to the monk class, so that very thoroughly throws the "never intended" argument out the window. The real question is is it classic, and I never played a monk but I'm pretty sure what I'm describing is how monks always pulled on live.

Not trolling here, just can't see how this is really any different from using invis. Invis, IVU, hide and sneak all do the same thing: they make the mob unable to perceive the player. Different forms of functional "invis", and different combinations behave somewhat differently, but they all set faction to "indifferent" when in effect.

Sneak did not work like this on Live. It is not how Monk's pulled on Live.

If you pulled a mob and then Feigned you COULD NOT remove yourself from the hate list simply by using Hide or Sneak.

The only way to remove yourself was to be CoH'd, zoning, having a successful feign, or the mob resetting to its static spawn point.

What Sneak does is significantly reduce the aggro range of a mob.

It will not work correctly here because the projectile system on range items is almost instantaneous.

Example of how it is supposed to work:

Player Sneaks up behind a spawn of 3 mobs
Player throws/shoots one of the mobs
Player has a successful Sneak as the projectile is in the air before it hits the mob they want to pull
Mob then comes single due to the reduced aggro range of the targeted mob

[uygi]

Example of how it is supposed to work:

Player Sneaks up behind a spawn of 3 mobs
Player throws/shoots one of the mobs
Player has a successful Sneak as the projectile is in the air before it hits the mob they want to pull
Mob then comes single due to the reduced aggro range of the targeted mob

That doesn't make sense. Sneaking reduces the mob's ability to ask for help from his buddies? Being "invisible" to the mob makes a lot more sense to me.

And yes Nirgon, mobs going home separately is also part of it, but certainly not all of it.

[uygi]

If you pulled a mob and then Feigned you COULD NOT remove yourself from the hate list simply by using Hide or Sneak.

I suppose that would be the most quintessential example of what we're debating here. Should my aggro reset it I hide or am invis'd before I stand up? I didn't play an FD class on live. If it's not supposed to work, then I guess the only way to escape a sticky situation would be to have a groupmate invis you while FD, /q out and come back invis...

[Nirgon]

Mobs going home separately is a lot of it.

[Treats]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2869

Written by Kuurus IceBear

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

There are some mobs that work on social aggro that don't need to "see" the player to be aggro'd by the other mob, most of the time sneak pulling won't help in these isolated instances. But there are LOTS of mobs people have told me are linked by social aggro and I couldn't sneak pull just one, yet I have *shrug*

Anyways, most mobs in norrath work on chain aggro - one runs by aggro'd, it aggro's another, BUT Sneak negates this in most instances.

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

The important thing is KEEP SNEAK ENGAGED until the mob is past anything else it can aggro on it's way to you. If you get hit so that sneak is off, or just take it off, then all normal chain aggro comes into effect.

By the way, because of this, sneak pulling casters is trickier. If they hit you with a nuke, sneak comes off, re-engage it quickly and you have a chance still to negate any chain aggro.

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Responses to some questions:

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karmors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

Using this, I have been able to keep the basement completely cleared, getting nothing but single pulls for 8 hours. It makes having the "necessary" cleric and chanter unecessary in an area that gives great xp - I've done the whole basement with nothing but 2 rogues and a druid.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you.

p.s. - Nimm is correct, I was simply referring to the pulling range of *most* weapons as far as pulling safely from the front. Of course there are some exceptions. Edited by: Zato at: 6/11/01 11:53:47 am

This is what I get from the post:

Sneak reduces the aggro range of the mob before and after you are on the Hate list.

However, it will not remove you from the Hate list.

Being invisible provides no reduction in aggro range after you are added onto a Hate list.

I suppose that would be the most quintessential example of what we're debating here. Should my aggro reset it I hide or am invis'd before I stand up? I didn't play an FD class on live. If it's not supposed to work, then I guess the only way to escape a sticky situation would be to have a groupmate invis you while FD, /q out and come back invis...

Have a thread relating to this here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68541

[uygi]

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.Would seem to indicate that hiding successfully stops social aggro. Invis is not mentioned. Also sounds like the source quoted wasn't really familiar with hide for pulling purposes... his first sentence about hide says it doesn't help, the second one indicates it stops social aggro. He apparently saw no need for hide, but isn't commenting on its mechanics. Overall I'd say the source doesn't sound very expert.

[Haul]

remove and fix this shit plz nilbog

[Treats]

Would seem to indicate that hiding successfully stops social aggro. Invis is not mentioned. Also sounds like the source quoted wasn't really familiar with hide for pulling purposes... his first sentence about hide says it doesn't help, the second one indicates it stops social aggro. He apparently saw no need for hide, but isn't commenting on its mechanics. Overall I'd say the source doesn't sound very expert.

...

He is saying Hide does not affect chain aggro when THE MOB is moving past other mobs.

He is saying that Hide helps when THE ROGUE is moving past other mobs with the one he just sneak pulled behind him.

[Xadion]

So POP = Kunark and Velious and even Luclin? ... and during all of them I CoShadow pulled shit like a motherfucker?

sorry peeps but "on EQ Mac" does not = "how it should be on p99"

[Daliant17447]

case closed. Fix this shit asap.
+1 Fix this obviously broken mechanic. Its sad that people are defending this shit in the name of easy pixels.

sorry peeps but "on EQ Mac" does not = "how it should be on p99"
You're right. "How it was in 1999-2001" = "how it should be on p99". In this case, "How it was in 1999-2001" = "how it is now on EQ Mac".

It is plain as day that the people claiming "invis pulling worked on all mobs as long as there were no see-invis" are only making this claim to protect their current methods of farming pixels, and its pathetic.
Also, hide and sneak should not 100% clear FD memory, it has never worked that way in EQ.

[Splorf22]

Just an addition here, but a big part of the problem is that you only drop invis when you begin to cast, not when you finish.

[uygi]

Just an addition here, but a big part of the problem is that you only drop invis when you begin to cast, not when you finish.

Can't tell if you're claiming that's a bug, Loraen. It certainly worked that way on Live. Just ask any porter that would have somebody invis him mid-cast.

[Nirgon]

Invis should only break on cast or action not on completion.

[Xadion]

+1 Fix this obviously broken mechanic. Its sad that people are defending this shit in the name of easy pixels.


You're right. "How it was in 1999-2001" = "how it should be on p99". In this case, "How it was in 1999-2001" = "how it is now on EQ Mac".

It is plain as day that the people claiming "invis pulling worked on all mobs as long as there were no see-invis" are only making this claim to protect their current methods of farming pixels, and its pathetic.
Also, hide and sneak should not 100% clear FD memory, it has never worked that way in EQ.

Its clear as day for me that I am stateing from my personal experiances (as we all are, untill some patch notes are found) that on live from the time I got a prenerf CoS in kunark untill sometime around Luclin or PoPish era - I could invs pull shit all over the place- any SK from live can atest to invs pulling if they had a prenerf CoS-- prenerf CoS's didnt sell on live for very very large amounts of plat just for the "conveniance" of instant invs- it was because of what it did for the SK and their ability to pull- useing hide is just an extension of that.

[Daliant17447]

Pre-nerf CoS was so desirable due to its usefulness regarding FD. A shadowknight could stand from being feigned and immediately click CoS and the mobs would still believe the player was FD as long as the mobs could not see invis. This didn't completely clear FD memory though, if you dropped your invis before the mobs reset they would still remember you.

As has been mentioned there were probably many places where invis pulling was possible but that doesn't mean it was possible everywhere. A mob should be basing its decision to social agro on the pursuing mob's faction, not the players faction, that is the real problem here.

[Nirgon]

(as we all are, untill some patch notes are found)

You do realize that sometimes (most times!) things are not correct in the EQ Emu code that were never broken in live and thus you will never find a patch note, right?

If this doesn't work on EQ Mac, I have to agree it needs to go from here. After fixing this, if there's specific examples of where it should work? Then we can list those and maybe figure out. As it stands, its very bad imo.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I'm trying to find documentation, so far nothing, but this worked in VP. Which, ironically, is what some are trying to get nerfed.

Generally, we'd clear all the see invis wurms on the way to a dragon, and then just send an SK to bring it in. Heck, we'd even get the see invis wurms solo by just running the sk up until they aggroed.

[Nirgon]

Where's the patch note where they changed it for Planes of Power?

Or is Hobart over at EQ Mac wrong?

I'll trust the guy with a Vulak loot (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=6478) named after him.

[Xadion]

So when asked, Hobart said that EQMac's pulling code and faction code and invs code is exactly the same as it was in 1999, or kunark or velious or luclin?

[Nirgon]

I dunno, pick up the phone and call him : /.

Just sayin'. There's no patch notes any where that it was ever changed. Shouldn't be able to man.

[uygi]

Nirgon, as proud as I am that you've posted some evidence, posting it over and over again doesn't make it any better. Do more research and spend less time dwelling on how you think it should be. Nobody cares WHY you think it should be that way, EVEN if you're 100% right, without a solid BODY of evidence it's just one guy whining. My bug reports have more evidence, less opinion, LESS DISAGREEMENT, and they're still unaddressed. You really, really are going about this all wrong.

[Nirgon]

EQMac I think wraps this one up nicely.

There's another post that's been bumped without any new evidence by a certain someone. But correctly so because its a great fix. I'll leave this one alone. Starting... now.

[SamwiseBanned]

common sense says this is/was NOT intended. anyone defending this exploit is a dumbass. whether its classic or not, well I could care less its a joke to keep it in.

[Xadion]

you may see it as dumb, but well... It indeed was how it was and is how it is. And calling people dumbasses outside rnf? Ya may wanna edit that one as I got a waning for flaming and all I did was disagree...so...just saying.

any classic sk that had a prenerf cos will tell you that invs pulling worked.

[Zeelot]

Circlet of shadow/hide to pull was legit throughout classic -> Velious. Though it's not as useful in Velious since a lot of things see invis and hide.

I played it, was there and so did a lot of others. If you want, go get commentary from the other SK's who played at the same time. The SK community was pretty tight knit serverwide via shadowknight.org (now evilgamer.net). Get to that research Nirgon! <3

[CrystalBlue]

The Knights Watch was where the real SKs congregated.

[Xadion]

shadowknight.org was mad legit till ign sellout.

[Nirgon]

Circlet of shadow/hide to pull was legit throughout classic -> Velious. Though it's not as useful in Velious since a lot of things see invis and hide.

I played it, was there and so did a lot of others. If you want, go get commentary from the other SK's who played at the same time. The SK community was pretty tight knit serverwide via shadowknight.org (now evilgamer.net). Get to that research Nirgon! <3

Where's the patch note when they changed it past Velious?

Sounds like EQ Emu code problem and its working on Mac.

[anotherfiz]

So , there are two things wrong with how the mechanics work on this server.

1) For monks - Sneak should not assist FD in mem blurring, besides that it appears to be working right. Invis works in the same manner and shouldnt.

2) Invis pulling is supposed to work , but only if the mobs are on a different faction table.

The reason invis pulling should not and will not work in Chardok is because all the mobs in chardok are on chardok faction, there is social agro. Same thing with seb juggs, and myconids - They should all social and invis pulling should not work.

The situation in which invis pulling does and should work on live, like in VP 1.0 for example, was because the Dragons were not on the same faction as the wurms and other roamers, as a result there is no social agro. I personally pulled like this during vel.

[SamwiseBanned]

dem pixels man, people will do anything to get em easier than they already are

[Nirgon]

different faction table.

It's not ENTIRELY faction based. For instance: spectres in oasis are my favorite example of social creatures. They have no faction and should not be invis pullable imho.

I have no EQMac access and we never even bothered trying on Live because we knew this didn't work... but maybe a test on EQMac will reveal specs can be invis pulled with IVU.

The ground rule is that invis or not invis shouldn't effect creatures in almost every case. There may be exceptions to the rule, but I think they should be few and far between. If they social? Invis shouldn't effect, gg.

For instance if you pulled a guild master through freeport, the guards should stomp your face as well.

[Nirgon]

Have someone cast invis on you on the pull though. I know how they're supposed to work normally.

[anotherfiz]

Werent undeads always the exception to the rule, they train on random people, they dont run, they dont act like... living beings?

[Nizzarr]

So , there are two things wrong with how the mechanics work on this server.

1) For monks - Sneak should not assist FD in mem blurring, besides that it appears to be working right. Invis works in the same manner and shouldnt.

2) Invis pulling is supposed to work , but only if the mobs are on a different faction table.

The reason invis pulling should not and will not work in Chardok is because all the mobs in chardok are on chardok faction, there is social agro. Same thing with seb juggs, and myconids - They should all social and invis pulling should not work.

The situation in which invis pulling does and should work on live, like in VP 1.0 for example, was because the Dragons were not on the same faction as the wurms and other roamers, as a result there is no social agro. I personally pulled like this during vel.

This is exactly how I remember it.

Fix the current invis pulling please.

[Nirgon]

+4 for Nizzar

[kaev]

Werent undeads always the exception to the rule, they train on random people, they dont run, they dont act like... living beings?

Most undead, yeah. Many (?most?all?) factioned or named undead (i.e. the ghost in Unrest, Undead Frogluks in LGuk, the undead in Kaesora, not sure about other factioned Kunark undead) behaved like live mobs.

[Nirgon]

So you shouldn't be able to invis pull Emperor Chottal to the zone in :P.

[uygi]

Whether or not an undead behaves like a live mob has nothing to do with whether they should be invis pullable. Most undeads just (theoretically should) have slightly different target selection criteria and not run. Has nothing to do with their basic ability to proximity and social aggro, which should be the same as all other social creatures.

[hatelore]

I played a sk on live from 1999 until about the end of pop. I was invis pulling on live from the second i learned how, as was any other sk with a circlet that knew how. This caused a nerf to the new circlets that dropped but not to the mechanics of a pull with the pre nerf circlet. I even remember doing it in pog alot when i pulled it. Not sure on the fd/hide ability though since i didn't know that trick back then.

[hatelore]

fd/hide meaning a successful hide meant an aggro clear to any mob that could not see through hide.

[Nirgon]

Important issue that I think needs some kind of dev response or discussion.

[hatelore]

The notion that a mob would pass on agrro to a nearby mob while you were pulling it (while invis) and none of the other nearby mobs could see invis is flat out wrong. It was not that way on live during classic,kunark or velious.

[Treats]

The last was the most devious, but also totally explainable.
I was in SolA. A goblin shaman was green to me, and thus too chicken to
attack me. However, he could see me, and this allowed him to share his hate
list with everyone around him. Meaning me. This is effectively a 0 mana,
instantaneous cast of see invis for every mob within normal aggro range (and
through walls).
This, still, didn't matter, until a Blue to Me non-casting melee goblin
of some description, wandered by. While he couldn't see me, he could take
the hate list of the shaman, and poof, he could instantly attack me. (I
love how invisibility doesn't actually make you invisible).
The kicker is, that since a BTM had aggroed on me... all the little
greenies took courage from him, and joined the fight.
So when I gated, I was busy bandaging quickly trying to fight the DOT
that that little shaman had stung me with... grrr, should have blasted it
out of its boots before it got help.

Did some of you not even read this post?

This explains why it IT WILL NOT WORK if the mobs are on the same faction.

The Goblin Shaman was green.
The Player was too high for the Goblin to attack him.
The Goblin had to have SOME WAY to pass the aggro onto the blue melee Goblin that could not see invis.

The Green Goblin Shaman could See Invisible (Which is exactly what any mob that is pulled can do -- They can see the player regardless if he is Invis or not and therefore transfer their hatelist to anything that will assist)

[Treats]

After further testing on the MAC server Invis pulling does in fact work there.

However, it requires a VERY unique set of circumstances. It has to do primarily with DIRECT aggro and ASSIST aggro, the two are separate mechanics. Any mob that you have DIRECT aggro on can pass its hate list onto any other mob it passes of the same faction regardless if you are Invisible or not. Any mob that is ASSISTING the mob you have DIRECT aggro on CANNOT pass its hate list to anything else if you are Invisible.

Example:

Lets say you have two guards right next to each other in Freeport
They are in assist radius of each other
Root one of the guards (This is Direct aggro)
Immediately Invis yourself
The other guard will assist and come chasing after you (This is Assist aggro)
You can now take the guard that is chasing you (with assist aggro) anywhere in the zone and it cannot pass its hate list to any other mob while you are Invisible
If that guard catches you or comes into its predetermined aggro radius of you direct aggro now applies and it can pass his hate list to anything else

This should be about the final nail in the coffin on this issue as it proves that pulling with Invis is still possible on the EQMac server.

This is pretty solid as to how it should work, if anyone has any reliable links or patch notes that say otherwise please post them.

No more memories.

[anotherfiz]

This will not get sorted out.

There are too many people on this server who "claim" to have been "high end pullers" in "high end raid guilds" who "did this all the time". In reality, they are riding on the coattails of people who used told them stories of invis pulling in VP, and figured that it must be able to be extrapolated to all zones.

I challenge anyone who has an experience single pulling any zone with invis on Live, pre Luclin, to post their experience here, and I will retort with the reasons about why it worked in YOUR circumstance but would not work in ALL circumstances.

Faction's played a much bigger role in Velious than people understand. I'm going to use Kael Drakkal as an example since its the second most cited source besides VP. Yes, there were two main factions (giant and dragon), but what seems to be missed here is the entirety of Kael Drakkal was NOT on the same giant faction. There was Kromzek faction, Tormax faction, and even a few others. There were mobs in Kael who were on 1 faction that surrounded by mobs of another faction that COULD be single pulled with invis. (Hint, most quest mobs were on their own faction in kael) Im sure there are people who remember being KoS to half of the mobs in the Giant quest room.

For those of you saying that it was ninja patched "some time after velious" - Veeshan's Peak was DESIGNED with invis pulling in mind. This is why the dragons were on different factions and with two minute spawn times, invis pulling non faction linked mobs was a major strategy. Major and intended strategies do not get changed with a ninja patch that shows no change-logs.

This whole situation saddens me because it is breaking the nature of this game - which was challenge of its environment, not the individual mobs.

To those of you saying that you can invis pull anywhere, again, i beg you. Either provide proof , or relay your circumstances on this thread so that I can explain what factions you were not aware of.


TLDR - there is no evidence of a change in invis pulling because it never changed. It still the same on live. Believers - the burden is on YOU to prove otherwise

[kanras]

Pending update:
- Added the distinction between direct and indirect hate.
- Mobs with indirect hate (obtained by another mob yelling for help) on a target cannot yell for help to transfer hate for their target to another NPC.
- The only way to prevent the transfer of direct hate to another nearby NPC is to be sneaking in the proper area of that NPC's visibility. Invis/IVU/Hide etc. no longer have any impact on whether direct aggro will be transferred.

[Nirgon]

God damn Kanras.

Way to keep it classic as shit dawg.

[heartbrand]

does this mean translation invis pulling dead?

[Nizzarr]

Love it.

Good job.

[Nirgon]

Now that you're done with it of course!

But I think everyone is at this point :P.

[Num1RecommendedByDentists]

so basically monk pulling is still kind of silly broken?

[Splorf22]

Fantastic.

[Itap]

Shits classic

[Fazlazen]

So , there are two things wrong with how the mechanics work on this server.

1) For monks - Sneak should not assist FD in mem blurring, besides that it appears to be working right. Invis works in the same manner and shouldnt.

2) Invis pulling is supposed to work , but only if the mobs are on a different faction table.

The reason invis pulling should not and will not work in Chardok is because all the mobs in chardok are on chardok faction, there is social agro. Same thing with seb juggs, and myconids - They should all social and invis pulling should not work.

The situation in which invis pulling does and should work on live, like in VP 1.0 for example, was because the Dragons were not on the same faction as the wurms and other roamers, as a result there is no social agro. I personally pulled like this during vel.

This guy speaks the truth.

[Nirgon]

If you get rezzed next to a kos mob being tanked, you should have a chance to pull low hp aggro.

This will work with this change now. True or false?

If everyone is camping out in fear and a mob gets pulled through the camp and the player with aggro dies, the mobs will come attack every player they passed near.

True or false?

[Treats]

If you get rezzed next to a kos mob being tanked, you should have a chance to pull low hp aggro.

This will work with this change now. True or false?

If everyone is camping out in fear and a mob gets pulled through the camp and the player with aggro dies, the mobs will come attack every player they passed near.

True or false?

Don't think anything will change with initial hate missle lock, bumped the thread I made.

Still needs to be more things addressed before Velious but this will be a good change in regards to difficulty.

Resists
Outdoor Line of Light
Initial Hate Missle Lock
Increase Magic Resistance for NPCs in Planes (Mostly due to charm)
Retune charm durations/resists
Dictate unresistable to Total MR NPCs (Level cap added also)
Double Invisibility
Divine Intervention/Death Pact functionality
Venril Sathir Lifetap
Aggro and assist radius around the boat in Overthere at Outpost (For OT hammer if KoS)

[SupaflyIRL]

After further testing on the MAC server Invis pulling does in fact work there.

However, it requires a VERY unique set of circumstances. It has to do primarily with DIRECT aggro and ASSIST aggro, the two are separate mechanics. Any mob that you have DIRECT aggro on can pass its hate list onto any other mob it passes of the same faction regardless if you are Invisible or not. Any mob that is ASSISTING the mob you have DIRECT aggro on CANNOT pass its hate list to anything else if you are Invisible.

Example:

Lets say you have two guards right next to each other in Freeport
They are in assist radius of each other
Root one of the guards (This is Direct aggro)
Immediately Invis yourself
The other guard will assist and come chasing after you (This is Assist aggro)
You can now take the guard that is chasing you (with assist aggro) anywhere in the zone and it cannot pass its hate list to any other mob while you are Invisible
If that guard catches you or comes into its predetermined aggro radius of you direct aggro now applies and it can pass his hate list to anything else

This should be about the final nail in the coffin on this issue as it proves that pulling with Invis is still possible on the EQMac server.

This is pretty solid as to how it should work, if anyone has any reliable links or patch notes that say otherwise please post them.

No more memories.

This is how i used to single pull everything in revamped chardok. Assist aggro + good faction with mobs/invis among non see-invis mobs is the only circumstance in which this should work.

Post is legit.

[Splorf22]

Don't think anything will change with initial hate missle lock, bumped the thread I made.

Still needs to be more things addressed before Velious but this will be a good change in regards to difficulty.

Resists
Outdoor Line of Light
Initial Hate Missle Lock
Increase Magic Resistance for NPCs in Planes (Mostly due to charm)
Retune charm durations/resists
Dictate unresistable to Total MR NPCs (Level cap added also)
Double Invisibility
Divine Intervention/Death Pact functionality
Venril Sathir Lifetap
Aggro and assist radius around the boat in Overthere at Outpost (For OT hammer if KoS)

I agree that current charm is OP (although much less so on red hehe) but I think those durations are probably classic.

Initial Hate missile lock is a big issue for sure.

Double invis I thought people said was classic.

DI is minor especially since IIRC nothing in Velious DTs

Outdoor line of sight I thought was fixed already? At least in hate I tried warrior pulling and regularly got aggro through the walls.

Dictate needs to be fixed but 95% of the problems would go away if Sirran was immune, which is a 5 second fix.

[Treats]

I agree that current charm is OP (although much less so on red hehe) but I think those durations are probably classic.

Initial Hate missile lock is a big issue for sure.

Double invis I thought people said was classic.

DI is minor especially since IIRC nothing in Velious DTs

Outdoor line of sight I thought was fixed already? At least in hate I tried warrior pulling and regularly got aggro through the walls.

Dictate needs to be fixed but 95% of the problems would go away if Sirran was immune, which is a 5 second fix.

This line should read -- Dictate resistable to Total MR NPCs (Level cap added also), oops.

DI would have been an issue because it fired when HP hit 0 regardless -- Fixed now.

Outdoor Line of Sight was only changed in Hate for test.

Only thing I have to go by on Double Invis is EQMac server, doesn't work there.

Sirran should have been immune to Dictate for a long time here. Most likely when he was charmed on Live he was not totally MR Immune. All they did to fix him was buff his MR.

[Nirgon]

Good list for Treats

Plus bolts

Shouldn't be able to immune Trak touch

[Wip3ou7]

I played a level 65 Troll Shadowknight on Tallon Zek and was a member of Pandemonium. I can verify that invis pulling with CoS did work in live, and I still have my 65 TSK on Zek with my prenerf CoS. My character's name is Iroxx.

[Nirgon]

Dats nice

[drktmplr12]

http://i.imgur.com/RsZOlMf.jpg