What is up with snared speed?

[Vladesch]

And why was it changed?
It's ridiculous now. While fear kiting hill giants now they have their "fast animation" which is clearly wrong. I assume the animation is picked based on their actual speed.

I don't know if this represents the change to their flee speed or is some other unintended consequence, but even a non feared but snared giant didn't use the "fast animation" on live, let alone a feared one.

No wonder I was getting chewed up by the spirocs in TD.

I didn't see any particular problem with flee speed. Seemed about right compared to live. Whats going on and why break what was working?

Edit: In case anyone wants to argue the point, here is a video from live of a hill giant being snared and feared using the same spells... dooming darkness and invoke fear.
Try it on P1999 using those spells. The difference is obvious.

http://www.users.on.net/~vladesch/misc/eqgame%202012-06-29%2019-49-37-08.mkv

[douglas1999]

This is what I've been saying for a while now. If there is one piece of evidence that mobs flee too fast here it's that they're using their "fast animation" while fleeing. You should only ever see the "fast running" animation if the mob is chasing you with substantial HP remaining, or if it's feared with substantial HP remaining (but not snared).

[Urbanzkopf]

Last time I snared a hill giant they run at the same speed as they do when they are casually just walking around un-engaged. The same animation as that as well, this goes for seafuries too, and I was snaring those yesterday? Not sure I understand what you guys are trying to say here.

[Vladesch]

There's something odd happening here.
I was just experimenting with things, and now the hill giants are using their walking animation. Whether they are feared or not.

Still using the same snare spell (dooming darkness).

Oh well. I'll continue now and see if it's consistent.

Edit: killed quite a few HG now. They all seem to be moving at the correct speed. No idea why one of them was a little faster before. I'm sure it was snared, its like it had snare mitigation or a faster base speed or something. Shrug.

[Ravager]

I think there might be something buggy with the feared flee speeds. Last week I was messing around killing sarnaks in LOIO and I was using instill doubt on them and they ran as if they were snared when they weren't. I put a post up about it for the GMs to look at, but then I felt like an idiot the next day when I couldn't duplicate it. But if you're having the same kind of hit and miss flee issues, I may not have been imagining things.

[douglas1999]

What I was talking about specifically was mobs fleeing when low on HP. They run at about 20%, which is right, but yesterday for example I was soloing dogs in KC and when they would flee, they were running at full speed initially. As in, it was actually playing the running\pursuit animation for the mob. I am quite sure that never happened on live. Mobs would only run from you using their run animation if they were feared without snare and still had a lot of HP, or if it was a green con and you got it low on HP, I believe they would run early, and at full speed. Dark blue mobs never fled like this though.

I'm only talking about the full blown running, once you hit them a couple times after they start running at full speed, they start simply walking fast, which IS classic. The last patch that increased the flee speed got it right with the fast walking but then took it a little too far, so that they are outright running.

[Danyelle]

The real question here is, who in this thread can provide evidence that what they are claiming is actually how it happened, or still happens, and how many are basing it off of memories from 13 years ago that could be falsified by time?

I play Live's Test server, the mobs here are indeed a little faster, but not near as much as everyone makes them out to be. Especially if the mob happens to be SoW'd. Fleeing/snared or not. And I can provide FRAPs evidence of this if need be. As for the "modern versus Classic" debate... I checked and did see a single patch note, from 1999 to 2012, that indicates mob flee speed, sow speed, snare speed, or any other form of runspeed, was universally changed. Logic dictates that it was the same way back then as it is now. EQMac would also be a good judge.

Until people can provide some sort of solid evidence stating otherwise. They won't change a thing. You can make all the posts/threads and complaints about "this is how I remember it" that you want.

[douglas1999]

Well you're totally right about that, and I wish I could find some documented evidence. I'm only so certain because almost every other change they make I remember as being accurate from classic, but when they changed the run speed it jumped out as being drastically wrong immediately. I quit EQ during luclin, so I don't have very many non-classic era eq memories to get things mixed up with.

[Hollywood]

The real question here is, who in this thread can provide evidence that what they are claiming is actually how it happened, or still happens, and how many are basing it off of memories from 13 years ago that could be falsified by time?

I play Live's Test server, the mobs here are indeed a little faster, but not near as much as everyone makes them out to be. Especially if the mob happens to be SoW'd. Fleeing/snared or not. And I can provide FRAPs evidence of this if need be. As for the "modern versus Classic" debate... I checked and did see a single patch note, from 1999 to 2012, that indicates mob flee speed, sow speed, snare speed, or any other form of runspeed, was universally changed. Logic dictates that it was the same way back then as it is now. EQMac would also be a good judge.

Until people can provide some sort of solid evidence stating otherwise. They won't change a thing. You can make all the posts/threads and complaints about "this is how I remember it" that you want.

Danyelle you seem to be often very quick to play devil's advocate in a lot of discussions that claim something is wrong with the server - all the while you're the one without the 'evidence' to support your claims.

It's quite obvious to those of thus that were there in 99, 00, 01 and on and on that a mob on low health(depending on mob type..use goblin for example) would flee slower than at higher health (just like players). Yet now, they intermittently flee at slow speed, half speed, normal speed and full speed.

Additionally, their animations don't always match.
You get cases where the mob is moving slow in relation to your movements, however their huffin and puffin their legs and arms like some small old guy trying to power walk.

Now let's talk bout the amount of times a mob changes direction. The only time a mob should change direction when fleeing is if the server recognizes an immovable object in the mob's path. When the mob reaches it, it turns or adjusts it's position.

On this server, especially after the last patch, mobs turn randomly and frequently for no reason when they are low health or fleeing.

Face it, the server has errors and until people can provide evidence stating otherwise, they won't change a thing. We're both saying the same thing, but it's not unreasonable to let people post their thoughts and findings on events in the game, whether in the bug forums, petitions or general chat.

If the GMs spent as much time listening to community feedback about the bugs, as much as they sit in zones while we raid on 'raid nights' the server might actually get a bit more stable and consistent.


Out of curiosity what was the date of this 'patch' you saw that mentions a universal change in monster flee speed.

[Arteker]

The real question here is, who in this thread can provide evidence that what they are claiming is actually how it happened, or still happens, and how many are basing it off of memories from 13 years ago that could be falsified by time?

I play Live's Test server, the mobs here are indeed a little faster, but not near as much as everyone makes them out to be. Especially if the mob happens to be SoW'd. Fleeing/snared or not. And I can provide FRAPs evidence of this if need be. As for the "modern versus Classic" debate... I checked and did see a single patch note, from 1999 to 2012, that indicates mob flee speed, sow speed, snare speed, or any other form of runspeed, was universally changed. Logic dictates that it was the same way back then as it is now. EQMac would also be a good judge.

Until people can provide some sort of solid evidence stating otherwise. They won't change a thing. You can make all the posts/threads and complaints about "this is how I remember it" that you want.

you are rigth but beyond dod some mobs will catch you even if u have sow or spell effect movement

[Slave]

Mobs on P99 are significantly faster than mobs were in Classic. It is known.

Add to that the gigantic player hitboxes from the rear, tiny mob hitboxes from the rear, mobs casting SoW on other mobs in dungeons (they only ever cast it on themselves if they could), and other strange mechanics and the complaints roll in.

Personally, I find I can deal with everything else now that the mobs take time to turn while changing direction while fleeing. Nilbog really came through on that aspect.

[kaev]

..., mobs casting SoW on other mobs in dungeons (they only ever cast it on themselves if they could), ...

That's a lovely unsupported claim you have posted there sir. I shall counter with a matching claim that in the "classic" game mobs cast SoW on other mobs in dungeons at least as frequently as they do now on P99. Note that I provide exactly the same support for my claim as you do yours.

Also, when are they gonna fix this annoying server bug?

[Lazortag]

It's because Bards used to swarm kite or some shit like hell with the actual snare and runspeeds.

Yet they still do it!!! So why it was changed is really beyond anyone's comprehension, because it's a fucking retarded change to "prevent" one class from doing something they can still do, while hindering every other class that relied on a CLASSIC mechanic.

+1 guys, bravo.

No, things were changed because they are classic. Bards were made to be able to swarm kite last patch, and they've been able to aoe kite for a while. If the devs had a problem with this they wouldn't have nerfed every other class to fix it, that's silly. Moreover, they would have probably fixed Bards once it was made very clear that they can still aoe kite.

Mobs on P99 are significantly faster than mobs were in Classic. It is known.

Add to that the gigantic player hitboxes from the rear, tiny mob hitboxes from the rear, mobs casting SoW on other mobs in dungeons (they only ever cast it on themselves if they could), and other strange mechanics and the complaints roll in.


Faster when fleeing or when running? It's been said numerous times that mobs on eqmac flee at roughly the same speed as mobs here. Regular runspeed is accurate too, you can strafe run or run/jump to get away from any non-sowed mob but running in a straight line will get you killed just like in classic. I haven't noticed any problems with hitboxes so they can't be that bad. As for mobs not casting SoW on other mobs, you should look for evidence on that. I tried to find evidence in either direction on the everlore archives but I feel stupider after reading most of the comments on there.

[Tewaz]

Wait, swarm kiting is fixed? Lazortag, please respond.

[Danyelle]

Danyelle you seem to be often very quick to play devil's advocate in a lot of discussions that claim something is wrong with the server - all the while you're the one without the 'evidence' to support your claims.

It's quite obvious to those of thus that were there in 99, 00, 01 and on and on that a mob on low health(depending on mob type..use goblin for example) would flee slower than at higher health (just like players). Yet now, they intermittently flee at slow speed, half speed, normal speed and full speed.

Additionally, their animations don't always match.
You get cases where the mob is moving slow in relation to your movements, however their huffin and puffin their legs and arms like some small old guy trying to power walk.

Now let's talk bout the amount of times a mob changes direction. The only time a mob should change direction when fleeing is if the server recognizes an immovable object in the mob's path. When the mob reaches it, it turns or adjusts it's position.

On this server, especially after the last patch, mobs turn randomly and frequently for no reason when they are low health or fleeing.

Face it, the server has errors and until people can provide evidence stating otherwise, they won't change a thing. We're both saying the same thing, but it's not unreasonable to let people post their thoughts and findings on events in the game, whether in the bug forums, petitions or general chat.

If the GMs spent as much time listening to community feedback about the bugs, as much as they sit in zones while we raid on 'raid nights' the server might actually get a bit more stable and consistent.


Out of curiosity what was the date of this 'patch' you saw that mentions a universal change in monster flee speed.

I'm fully willing to admit if the server does something wrong. You don't see me holding back when I call them out on the 4 month IP exemption queues and the horrible effects that has on the population do you? I happen to think this is a situation where they aren't really wrong. They are off a tad, and I mentioned that as well. Mobs are a bit faster here. Also as Slave said, the hit box. But I don't think it's as monumental a situation as many people make it out to be.

And I said I could not find a patch that universally changed runspeed on Live. Hence why, what you see on Live, or EQMac, today can logically be assumed to be the same as it was from release. Something of that magnitude they would have put in the patch notes.

Also, I too played in 1999. Dunno if you were insinuating I didn't lol. I too, have memories of how mobs fled from me. Having started out as a (gimp and shitty) ranger, then moved up to (glorious masterclass) mage, I saw both ends of the runspeed spectrum.

If you want, I can log on Live (I'd say EQMac but my toons there aren't appropriate level to test anything lol) and FRAPs their speed. Then we can work together sifting through patch notes on Alla etc to see if there was some sort of global speed change that would result in what I captured to be different than what was during Classic. Just let me know.

[Splorf22]

Wait, swarm kiting is fixed? Lazortag, please respond.

+1

[douglas1999]

Yes, everyone's memory is foggy and different from one another's. That is understood and agreed upon by most rational people who play here. Now, does ANYONE remember mobs turning and running from you at full speed, using the same running animation that they use when you pull them? Say you pull a mob and it runs at you at 100% speed. Then you fight the mob for a while, and at about 20% health it turns and runs away at 100% speed again. This was how it worked? In the game that I played for three years and literally never remember seeing a mob do that once ever?

[Harrison]

Yes, everyone's memory is foggy and different from one another's. That is understood and agreed upon by most rational people who play here. Now, does ANYONE remember mobs turning and running from you at full speed, using the same running animation that they use when you pull them? Say you pull a mob and it runs at you at 100% speed. Then you fight the mob for a while, and at about 20% health it turns and runs away at 100% speed again. This was how it worked? In the game that I played for three years and literally never remember seeing a mob do that once ever?

^This.

Mobs didn't run away this fast, when snared. (Excluding movement speed buffs)

But the root of the problem is in the longstanding bug that is impossible (as yet) to fix given the technical restraints we have using the client we do, etc.

If they bump down the mob's movement speed even the smallest increment possible given in Emu, they will be too slow. That is unacceptable moreso than them running too fast.

Anyone claiming that mobs are moving the same speed as they did in live are flat out lying, or wrong. This is a longstanding identified issue with the server that can't be corrected yet. Not accurate.

[Razdeline]

Yes, everyone's memory is foggy and different from one another's. That is understood and agreed upon by most rational people who play here. Now, does ANYONE remember mobs turning and running from you at full speed, using the same running animation that they use when you pull them? Say you pull a mob and it runs at you at 100% speed. Then you fight the mob for a while, and at about 20% health it turns and runs away at 100% speed again. This was how it worked? In the game that I played for three years and literally never remember seeing a mob do that once ever?

I do remember mobs running this fast at 20% and gradually declining. If you want a good reference just go onto EQMAC, and do it there. Mobs run speeds were not changed up until that point (its locked in PoP).

That being said, I cant say how the running worked with snare, I *think* when you snared a mob that was running it automatically stopped, regardless of health (when below the 20% threshold).

[Lazortag]

Wait, swarm kiting is fixed? Lazortag, please respond.

Yep, I've tried it on Spirocs and Raptors in TD and it works just fine. The mobs don't even need to be kos to you. I don't think they need to be social either.

[Brimacombe]

The real question here is, who in this thread can provide evidence that what they are claiming is actually how it happened, or still happens, and how many are basing it off of memories from 13 years ago that could be falsified by time?

I play Live's Test server, the mobs here are indeed a little faster, but not near as much as everyone makes them out to be. Especially if the mob happens to be SoW'd. Fleeing/snared or not. And I can provide FRAPs evidence of this if need be. As for the "modern versus Classic" debate... I checked and did see a single patch note, from 1999 to 2012, that indicates mob flee speed, sow speed, snare speed, or any other form of runspeed, was universally changed. Logic dictates that it was the same way back then as it is now. EQMac would also be a good judge.

Until people can provide some sort of solid evidence stating otherwise. They won't change a thing. You can make all the posts/threads and complaints about "this is how I remember it" that you want.

I quadded spirocs in TD for about 5 days. I saw nothing out of the ordinary. Some mobs have faster runspeed than others. I don't enjoy this fact, but that does not mean I can use the "Classic" card to get it changed.
The plural of anecdote is not "Data".

-Brimacombe.

[Vladesch]

Say you pull a mob and it runs at you at 100% speed. Then you fight the mob for a while, and at about 20% health it turns and runs away at 100% speed again. This was how it worked?

That used to happen with green cons because they fled earlier.
Not sure about light blue, but dark blue didn't flee until their health slowed their movement.

Also an dark blue used to flee sufficiently slowly that *ensnare* would stop them completely, every time.
(So my druid who got the job as snarer in dungeons recalls)

[Brimacombe]

With all due respect. We all agree that Live is a mess. It is just this activity that caused that. The administration started buckling to the population's demand for an easier and easier everquest. When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

-Brimacombe

[Vladesch]

What, because the mobs are running earlier/faster than on live "we just want it easy"?
Smells like troll to me.

(Actually I saw a lot of mobs run on low health today and I didn't see any problems with running too early/fast)

[Spitty]

Gonna risk the possibility a dev will see this post and laugh, but I think there's been an adjustment since the initial runspeed patch and the server as it exists now. Upon patch, it seemed ridiculous - but now, it just seems challenging, which I'm on board with.