Mellee miss rate seems excessively high.

[Morndenkainen]

I've been running around with a L12 warrior, 65 offense/2h slash/kick, and a FS2h Sword, atk 317, and the miss rates I've seen are rather silly. Even attacking a light blue, I've lost a few fights due to chain misses where I'll completley miss like 5-8 times in a row, and times where I'll get gimped damage hits for close to 10 in a row, mixed in with misses. I honestly dont remember the miss rates being so bad in classic EQ, but I know I didnt die nearly as much there as I do now. Dunno if im doing somethign wrong, or what, but its rather aggravating.

Yes, I checked several pages, and no, I couldnt find any other complaints about the miss rate, so I figgured I'd post.
Since this thread is getting a little long and somewhat offtopic in spots im editing the original post to try and keep things organised and in one spot.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4124845...55258/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4124845...40385/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4124845...23982/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4124845...62724/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4124845...27143/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4124845...25965/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4124845...47565/sizes/l/

Adding up all the hit/miss ratio I've come up with 90 total attacks, 32 of thoes were total misses, and 37 gimped damage So for a level 12 warrior fignting a level 5ish mob a miss rate of 35%, and a gimped damage rate of about 41%, and an actual effective hit rate of 14%... Thats pretty bad considering im attacking something 7 levels lower... I mean, only doing full hit damage 14% of the time to a target thats much lower level??? There isnt something wrong with that?

I dont know, somehow, this really just doesnt seem correct. The miss rate seems atleast twice as high as what I remember it being when I was farming BB gnolls for fangs, faction, and exp. I used to solo the elite ledge at 15 without any issues, but I really dont see that happening in another 3 levels on this server on account of how Melee combat works.

Anyways, here's a constructive suggestion on how to fix it. I hope its workable.

Look at it from this perspective.. Say the base miss rate actually is 35%. (Im using an arbitrary number close to what im experiencing, Its the dev's place to decide what the actual value should really be). it should then be modified, by mob's skill in defense+ac vs the attackers offense+weaponskill/2 + Atk. This means that a warrior with max skills fighting a mob his own level, will still have a chance of missing, even with max weapon skill. It also means, that if he uses a weapon he's unskilled in, he's going to have a higher chance of missing until he gets his skill up. Example is below.

A level 5 gnoll should have a defense skill of 30, and lets say an ac of 100. If we take a level 5 warrior, with an offense of 30, and a weapon skill of 30, add em, and divide by 2, we get 30. Add in the ATK of 100 (or whatever due to gear), and you come up with an even value between the two. Which means that warrior should have a base miss rate of 35%, which it actually is..

Now, take that same level 5 gnoll, and attack it with a level 12 warrior with an offense of 65, and weapon skill of 65, for a TV of 65 Lets say the ATK is now 200. The warriors base skill, is 35 points higher than the defense of the gnoll, and the ATK is 100 points higher... Why does it still take just as long to kill the gnoll if the current system isnt broken? Even if you cut the values in half, you should still have atleast a 17% bonus to hit the gnoll due to level, which would make your base miss rate 18%, and since I cant say for sure what the ATK vs AC value does, (Perhaps it affects how often you get a "full damage" hit and the damage scaling), you should not only be missing ALOT less, but doing more full damage hits...

This still means that even with max skills, fighting a mob your own level, your still going to miss alot of the time, but it definatley would fix the problem of getting your ass handed to you by a lt.blue or green mob because you cant friggin hit it on a regular basis, and when you do, your only doing a couple points of damage. Assuming it works both ways, it could also easily fix the AC issue as well.. Meaning, that a level 5 gnoll should not be hitting a level 12 warrior as often, or for as much damage due to the ATK vs AC modifier.

[Ruinous]

I must agree completely that the melee system here seems... off. Perhaps it is an intentional way to keep things challenging, but it is certainly there.

As the poster has stated and myself have noticed, it seems almost like weapon skill has NO BEARING on your chance to land hits, nor does your level in comparison to the mob. For example as a low level cleric, fighting mobs in Butcher Block, from level 1-6 I made no progress in the rate that I was able to kill the level 1 skeleton mobs except when upgrading the damage of my weapon or throwing spells into the mix.

I use a cracked 2h staff which hits for a maximum of 10 at the moment, however even on green con level 1 skeletons, being 5 levels higher than them, a majority of my hits are either A) Complete Misses, or B) Only hit for 1 point of damage.

I have a very clear recollection of how the game was in '99, and I think this issue needs to be addressed asap. The con system seems to have absolutely no bearing on the difficulty of encounters here because of this flawed melee system . I've had to run from blue con fights due to an overwhelming amount of complete misses in combat which certainly should not happen when you engage a blue with full health/mana.

-Ruinous
Cleric of Brell Serilis

[Morndenkainen]

Yeah, I just fought a green scrawny gnoll guard in the everfrost - blackburrow tunnel... Took about 16 swings to kill him... 8 of which were outright misses and 4 of which were largely reduced damage... 2 of the kicks did full damage, 1 swing did full damage, and 1 swing was reduced by 2...

Just sayin, that seems rather excessive for a mob that's green to a level 12 char.

[Morndenkainen]

Yeah, this is gonna come off as bitching but screw it... I just got WTFPWN'D by a blue gnoll in blackburrow because somehow I just couldnt hit it... This issue seriously needs to be fixed, because I used to farm here from levels 8-15 or so on live and once I hit 10, I didnt have any of the issues that I do here.

[Ruinous]

I don't see much response from devs on the posts in this section so we're probably talking to a wall :)

Guess we'll have to accept the SoE motto of "working as intended"!

[Morndenkainen]

Well, if thats the case I definatley dont see myself sticking around terribly long. A level 12 warrior getting beaten by a light blue because he cant hit it is complete crap, and being forced to play certian classes just to survive isnt my idea of a good time. Its actually rather pathetic, I think there's been a net LOSS of xp today due to the number of times a FAR lower level mob has just utterly wiped the floor with me through no fault of my own that I can see... Never did anything stupid, and it was pretty much 1v1 fights that killed me... Hell, even greens still managed to do a significant amount of damage... 25-40% hps... And my AC is 252... Fighting with a warrior appears to be a joke. Maybe its time to go play an uber class... Caster with a pet that has insane regen and doesnt miss, here I come.

[Ruinous]

Lol. I've got an almost full set of bronze / FS gear on and got roflstomped by a blue basilisk in BB. But wait, I managed to take him down to 88%!

/flex

[Haynar]

I don't see much response from devs on the posts in this section so we're probably talking to a wall :)

Guess we'll have to accept the SoE motto of "working as intended"!
Who are you?

[Ruinous]

A concerned observer. Who are you?

[YendorLootmonkey]

This is more ridiculous than a one-handed dude on a bard camping an AC ring for j-boots for his bard twink.

How about both of you stop trying to solo blues and join some groups actually looking for tanks (get yourself to Unrest, warrior!) and healers (go to Orc Hill in Gfay, cleric!) for more efficient XP gain?

Or, considering the massive delay on the 2H weapons you're both trying to use makes it excessively painful when you miss and have to wait around for the next swing while the mob attacks you 4-5 times at 1H speeds... try switching to 1HS/1HB weapons.

[Haynar]

A concerned observer. Who are you?
Just the village idiot who asks dumb questions.

[President]

Well, if thats the case I definatley dont see myself sticking around terribly long. A level 12 warrior getting beaten by a light blue because he cant hit it is complete crap, and being forced to play certian classes just to survive isnt my idea of a good time. Its actually rather pathetic, I think there's been a net LOSS of xp today due to the number of times a FAR lower level mob has just utterly wiped the floor with me through no fault of my own that I can see... Never did anything stupid, and it was pretty much 1v1 fights that killed me... Hell, even greens still managed to do a significant amount of damage... 25-40% hps... And my AC is 252... Fighting with a warrior appears to be a joke. Maybe its time to go play an uber class... Caster with a pet that has insane regen and doesnt miss, here I come.

I really don't remember easily killing blues as a warrior back on live. But really, stop QQing. Melee was REALLY fucked when the server opened and a lot of us played warriors just fine. The Dev's devoted a lot of time getting melee as close to right as they could, and its far and above better than when the server opened.


The joke doesn't appear to be fighting with a warrior, the joke appears to be trying to solo with a warrior at level 12. User error.

[Morndenkainen]

"he"? No clue.. but if possible "I" would really appreciate it if one of you guys could look into this. I mean, im sure its been a while since you guys played a low level pure mellee class, and if you tried to level one up legitimatley, im sure you'd come to the same conclusion I did... the miss rate on the mobs is way too high.. Especially considering im level 12, and still having issues hitting the level 4-5 gnoll watchers in qeynos hills.
Slashed at one 12 times, completely missed 6 times, and 4 times, it recieved less than full damage. Kicked it 3 times during combat, one miss, one full damage, and one partial damage...

I really would appreciate any input you have on this Haynar... It seems really messed up that even attacking something 7-8 levels below me, im still missing 50% of the time, and only doing full damage 33% of the time when I actually do hit it.

[Ruinous]

I'm well aware of how to group and would be doing so if they were readily available. Being "forced" to group because of a severely crippled melee system however seems wrong. It's no wonder there's so many druids running around here - lol.

As far as the 2h weapon comment goes, it was a mistake. The cracked staff is 1-handed. I've tried both and using a low delay weapon does not compensate when you can't hit anything to begin with.

[Morndenkainen]

I really don't remember easily killing blues as a warrior back on live. But really, stop QQing. Melee was REALLY fucked when the server opened and a lot of us played warriors just fine. The Dev's devoted a lot of time getting melee as close to right as they could, and its far and above better than when the server opened.


The joke doesn't appear to be fighting with a warrior, the joke appears to be trying to solo with a warrior at level 12. User error.

Its not user error. a level 12 warrior shouldnt have any difficulty kicking the crap out of a level 5 mob.. It shouldnt take a L12 warrior at full health down to 75% health just to finish it off.. It was NOT like that in Live. I know, because I played EQ when it was first released, and only played until the first expansion was released. I had no problems killing stuff in live, and used to camp the elite ledge at level 13 while dual weilding giant snake fangs. I dont see that happening or being possible here.

The real problem is that you've been playing for so long and have gotten so tied up in the game, that you cant see things from the prespective of anyone who's beneath your almighty omnipotence. = other than your own...

[YendorLootmonkey]

That's how it was in Live in classic. Melees could not reliably solo blues. Hybrids had some utility spells that could help with this at least, but even then it was tough and not incredibly efficient. That is why the people who wanted to solo rolled druids, necros, and mages. No one ever rolled a melee class so they could solo... they resigned themselves to the fact that they would have to group in order to efficiently grind XP.

Having said that, like I said before, try a 1HS weapon. The mobs are chewing you up with their much more rapid attacks and you're gimping your damage output voluntarily, unless you have some sort of uber 2HS with a decent ratio.

There are plenty of level 50 warriors and clerics on the server who had no issues getting to where they were, so I doubt there's anything horribly wrong with the melee output/miss rate. I had no problem levelling my cleric up to 11 so far. I killed shit solo for the first 4 levels, went fairly quick, then grouped at Orc Hill for a few hours and went into Crushbone and grouped from about level 7 onward... I will say I haven't really used melee since I started grouping, so I can't speak to that. My ranger is at 18... I killed newb shit in North Qeynos until about level 4, started grouping up for gnolls in QH, then founds some pickup groups in Blackburrow and camped the hell out of fangs for XP... blew through to level 9 or 10 and headed over to Unrest. Never had a tough time with the melee output like you seem to be having, but I've only been using 1HS/kick so /shrug. At 17, I would not go against a blue without full mana in case I had to rootpark and heal myself... but it was like that in Live classic, too.

[Morndenkainen]

That's how it was in Live in classic. Melees could not reliably solo blues. Hybrids had some utility spells that could help with this at least, but even then it was tough and not incredibly efficient. That is why the people who wanted to solo rolled druids, necros, and mages. No one ever rolled a melee class so they could solo... they resigned themselves to the fact that they would have to group in order to efficiently grind XP.

Having said that, like I said before, try a 1HS weapon. The mobs are chewing you up with their much more rapid attacks and you're gimping your damage output voluntarily, unless you have some sort of uber 2HS with a decent ratio.There are plenty of level 50 warriors and clerics on the server who had no issues getting to where they were, so I doubt there's anything horribly wrong with the melee output/miss rate. I had no problem levelling my cleric up to 11 so far. I killed shit solo for the first 4 levels, went fairly quick, then grouped at Orc Hill for a few hours and went into Crushbone and grouped from about level 7 onward... I will say I haven't really used melee since I started grouping, so I can't speak to that. My ranger is at 18... I killed newb shit in North Qeynos until about level 4, started grouping up for gnolls in QH, then founds some pickup groups in Blackburrow and camped the hell out of fangs for XP... blew through to level 9 or 10 and headed over to Unrest. Never had a tough time with the melee output like you seem to be having, but I've only been using 1HS/kick so /shrug. At 17, I would not go against a blue without full mana in case I had to rootpark and heal myself... but it was like that in Live classic, too.

I agree with you in that higher level pure melee's, above level 20 could not solo blues easily, if at all... On live, I was soloing till around 23-25. Here, Im getting my ass handed to me by level 7 mobs when im level 12.. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that.. Perhaps you've been playing on a private server for too long to tell the difference, but I havent. Hell, some times it takes me 4-5 swings to kill a decaying skeleton because I keep missing. And thats a level 1 mob. How screwed up is THAT? Im using a FS2H sword, as its the best weapon I could get my hands on without having friends on the server. I would have loved to have 2-3 of my friends join me, and call it a day, but none of them care to play EQ. Sure, i've gotten in some PUG's, but its friggin embarrasing to get out done by an enchanters pet because all you see is miss,miss,miss,miss,miss,miss,miss, ect... It makes you look completley useless in a group. As for you blowing through everything, great man, good for you. Im glad you know the game backwards and forwards, but for the rest of us mere mortals who get to sit and play the game without your uber skills, or another person to follow us around and be the healbot/DPS, the fact that melee is severely gimped is really screwing us over. Also, it should be easy enough to level a cleric, you can self-heal, and on top of that cast smite/strike or whatever and do damage that actually doesnt miss 5-10 times in a row.

[President]

The real problem is that you've been playing for so long and have gotten so tied up in the game, that you cant see things from the prespective of anyone who's beneath your almighty omnipotence. = other than your own...


Aside from the fact I have been leveling up a bard the last few weeks and have not noticed any unusual melee miss ratios.

I definitely recall playing a warrior 10 years ago and even when fighting lower con mobs having horrible unlucky miss rates that caused many deaths.

I'm well aware of how to group and would be doing so if they were readily available. Being "forced" to group because of a severely crippled melee system however seems wrong. It's no wonder there's so many druids running around here - lol.

Are you seriously going to pretend it is hard to get groups right now especially lower than level 25? I have been leveling up a bard over the last month and had ZERO problems getting groups even at 2AM or 10AM MST.

"Severely crippled" melee problem is a gross exaggeration.

If you don't want to be "forced" to group there are plenty of single players games out there for you. I am sure the dev's are pretty tired of seeing people come on here and bitch how about how their level 8 character lost to a blue so the game must be broken.

[President]

I agree with you in that higher level pure melee's, above level 20 could not solo blues easily, if at all... On live, I was soloing till around 23-25. Here, Im getting my ass handed to me by level 7 mobs when im level 12.. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that.. Perhaps you've been playing on a private server for too long to tell the difference, but I havent. Hell, some times it takes me 4-5 swings to kill a decaying skeleton because I keep missing. And thats a level 1 mob. How screwed up is THAT?

How about to take some screen shots of this. It pretty much looks like you are exaggeration more and more with every post in hopes the dev's will look at you.

[Ruinous]

That's funny, because I've been on since 6:30PM. It's 10:30PM now and have only had 1 orc hill group offer, which I had to leave because mobs were turning green.

This wasn't a bitch thread about not getting groups. This was about the game being CLEARLY different than classic in respect to how melee works. I'm not going to flex my e-peen about how I've played EQ longer than you, but I've got enough common sense to make simple observations.

I played a dwarf cleric back in '99, and I'm playing one right now. Soloing to level 20 for a surname, an experience that I can remember as if it happened yesterday, was largely easier than it is right now on this Emulated server, and I've got better gear on here than I did back then.

It's not incredibly difficult to fathom that formulas may be off.

[President]

That's funny, because I've been on since 6:30PM. It's 10:30PM now and have only had 1 orc hill group offer, which I had to leave because mobs were turning green.

Try Crushbone much? Create your own group?



This wasn't a bitch thread about not getting groups. This was about the game being CLEARLY different than classic in respect to how melee works. I'm not going to flex my e-peen about how I've played EQ longer than you, but I've got enough common sense to make simple observations.

I played a dwarf cleric back in '99, and I'm playing one right now. Soloing to level 20 for a surname, an experience that I can remember as if it happened yesterday, was largely easier than it is right now on this Emulated server, and I've got better gear on here than I did back then.

It's not incredibly difficult to fathom that formulas may be off.

So 2-3 people bitching about it in the last 6 months since they did the melee fix obviously means its completely broken.

Coming onto the Bugs forum and whining about how you remember doing more melee damage in classic is not going to get help from the dev's. How about some screenshots? Parses? ANY proof other than "well i played EQ a lot and I remember it being much easier than it is here."

[Nocte]

Not to contribute to the OP's attitude (which is whiny and ineffective at his ultimate goal), but I do find it a little weird that at level 22, I still miss when bonking orc pawns on the head. Occasional misses are expected, of course, but I seem to miss about 40-ish percent of the time. Of course, this is a statistic based on my rough estimation and not any observed, measurable data. It does seem that misses are a little too common.

[Morndenkainen]

How about to take some screen shots of this. It pretty much looks like you are exaggeration more and more with every post in hopes the dev's will look at you.

Got any ideas on what I can do to get the file size on a pic down enough to post it here? Or should I try and do a photobucket link?

[Morndenkainen]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617823982/sizes/o/

Well here's a link to me fighting a green mob and missing about 4 in 10... Thats a 40% miss rate on a WAY lower level mob... Seems a little high...

[President]

Got any ideas on what I can do to get the file size on a pic down enough to post it here? Or should I try and do a photobucket link?

You should be able to resize in paint and use imgur.com to upload and then imbed the pictures.

I would hope you are planning to post more than 1 shot and get a few shots of each mob/level and with a level range/difficulty.

[President]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617823982/sizes/o/

Well here's a link to me fighting a green mob and missing about 4 in 10... Thats a 40% miss rate on a WAY lower level mob... Seems a little high...

Multiple examples would be useful. Of course this is all /rand to see whether you hit or not. A 10 swing sample is a very small sample to tell whether or not it is off. For instance, your first 5 swings had a 60% miss rate. But your last 5 swings had a 20% miss rate.

[Ruinous]

President, you seem incredibly ignorant and slow to accept that there may be any sort of issue here. This is a forum for posting "BUGS", is it not? Is that not what this post was for?

You're welcome to keep your head tucked nicely inside your own ass and stay oblivious to actual issues.

"Go group in crushbone!!!111one" isn't advice, it's arrogant drivel that doesn't belong in this post. I'd make you pretty log files to give exact comparisons from live to here and even post you some shiny screenshots, but it's obvious that you're too busy admiring your own ego for it to matter.

[President]

President, you seem incredibly ignorant and slow to accept that there may be any sort of issue here. This is a forum for posting "BUGS", is it not? Is that not what this post was for?

You're welcome to keep your head tucked nicely inside your own ass and stay oblivious to actual issues.

"Go group in crushbone!!!111one" isn't advice, it's arrogant drivel that doesn't belong in this post. I'd make you pretty log files to give exact comparisons from live to here and even post you some shiny screenshots, but it's obvious that you're too busy admiring your own ego for it to matter.

Hahaha. Call me ignorant, say I have my head up my ass, oblivious to issues, and admiring my own ego after all the crap you posted so far in this thread? Hilarious.

You could continue to make yourself look retarded, or you can start doing what Morndenkainen is doing and posting useful information for the dev's to work off of.

[Morndenkainen]

You should be able to resize in paint and use imgur.com to upload and then imbed the pictures.

I would hope you are planning to post more than 1 shot and get a few shots of each mob/level and with a level range/difficulty.

Of course I am, Im a little concerned bout fighting anything blue, though, i've lost enough experience today as it is... Greens should show you beyond a reasonable doubt though that there ARE issues with the hit/miss rate.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617855258/sizes/o/
A scrawny gnoll inside blackburrow took 8 attacks, 3 were misses, only 2 did full damage, and the critical did a mere 6 damage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617240385/sizes/o/
A gnoll in qeynos hills outside the mouth of blackburrow (Supposedly) a weaker gnoll, 13 attacks, 4 misses, and 4 did gimped damage.

[Morndenkainen]

Its late, if you want more pics, your just going to have to wait until tomorrow, I've already stayed up a bit later than I intended to just to give you some pics... If you want to find out first hand, make yourself a barbarian warrior and count your swings/misses. You'll find out first hand, im not bullshitting you. Until then, can you guys keep this topic about the miss issue, and not a bunch of random crap. If you want to start a discussion about grouping, take it to a new thread, this is supposed to be about an excessive miss rate for warriors.

Ruinous, President is right to ask for the pictures, I should have had thoes ready, but I was too irritated to think about it at the time. I'd like the dev's to take the topic seriously and not see it degenerate into minidless bitching about who's right about what..

President, Ruinous is right, heading out and looking for a group isnt going to solve the issue with the miss rate. I'd like the dev's to take the topic seriously and not see it degenerate into minidless bitching about who's right about what..

Seriously, I'd rather see if the issue is fixable rather than debate who does what, where and how. For all we know, half thoes people at 50 were 2 boxing, which resulted in the devs disabling multiple accounts off 1 IP to begin with. Its idle speculation and no one has any evidence either way. Lets just focus on the topic.

[President]

Of course I am, Im a little concerned bout fighting anything blue, though, i've lost enough experience today as it is... Greens should show you beyond a reasonable doubt though that there ARE issues with the hit/miss rate.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617855258/sizes/o/
8 attacks, 3 were misses, only 2 did full damage, and the critical did a mere 6 damage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617240385/sizes/o/
An even weaker gnoll, 13 attacks, 4 misses, and 4 did gimped damage.

I gotta be honest.. What you are showing me pretty much looks like you are pummeling green mobs.. Although they are green, you gotta consider that the level gap is not *that* huge with you only being level 12. If you were a few levels higher and came back to kill these same gnolls and had 40-50% miss rates, I might agree that something is wrong.

I remember dying more often than not on my warrior back in classic fighting blues solo(I think I learned my lesson trying to solo by my low-teens), so again It's going to be hard for me to agree with you that something is drastically wrong.

A dev can probably chime in on the difficulty of getting melee working exactly as classic, but after the time they spent when the server was opened (when it was totally fubar'd) it seems to me they got it pretty damn close.

[nicemace]

warriors getting owned by blues from lvl 5 up was standard.

[Desert]

Of course I am, Im a little concerned bout fighting anything blue, though, i've lost enough experience today as it is... Greens should show you beyond a reasonable doubt though that there ARE issues with the hit/miss rate.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617855258/sizes/o/
A scrawny gnoll inside blackburrow took 8 attacks, 3 were misses, only 2 did full damage, and the critical did a mere 6 damage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4617240385/sizes/o/
A gnoll in qeynos hills outside the mouth of blackburrow (Supposedly) a weaker gnoll, 13 attacks, 4 misses, and 4 did gimped damage.


Nothing looks super amiss to me. I really wanted this to be an issue, because I'm dying a lot more than I did on live it seems, but really you're not missing all that much.

Take the other guy's advice and try 1h imo. lower delay = more chances to hit = more aggro = less suckage

[Morndenkainen]

Look, I know how i got to my low 20's on live PRIOR to the first expansion with a warrior, it was pretty much all solo except an occasional group. Im telling you, the miss rate is excessive. 30-40% against lower level mobs is way too high. It should be far closer to 15% at the max when you consider the level difference. Something is off.

Nicemace, No, it wasnt standard from level 5 and up, as I said, I practically solo'd a warrior all the way to 23 on live and it wasnt much of an issue the goblins I fought and solo'd in highpass hold died just fine to a warrior in bronze with a blackened iron bastard sword.

Desert, the reason your dying alot more is because like me, you cant hit your target often enough to kill it. Try and consider that Im level 12, and that the gnolls are probably level 5. Theyre green. And im still missing 30-40% of the time on a green mob. Switching to a 1h isnt going to fix the miss rate. Im just going to get more attacks per minute. If I were level 15, I suppose I wouldnt mind, but I've always liked using 2h weapons. Perhaps its a fault with 2h weapons alone then? When I get dual weild, I'll be sure and check.

[Nokio]

A Barbarian Warrior is what i played back then on live. And i remember that we could not solo blue at all. Anyway your a warrior. play in a group.

Other then that it remembers me of a few comic about the subject :p
That made me laugh back in he day and that is accurate to this thread.

http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000816
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000822
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000823
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000824
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000828
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000904
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000917
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000928

And Probbably more about warrior but that already enough :p



And this one is out of the topic but is still funny :p
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000915

And the mighty spawn dance :
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20001206

[Ruinous]

I also recall being a cleric that I had no need to group except when I felt obligated to get player interaction until well into my 20's. Level 1-6 in the noob area BB, 6-9 at the druid ring skeletons, 9-12 at gob warriors, 12-15 at chessboard, 15-19 in unrest, and some levels to follow in one of the Planes of Karana.

This was through soloing undead mobs almost exclusively. It seems that the people here have lost sight of how the con system was intended to work at lower levels. On live, as a cleric with the ability to cast mana-effective undead DD spells, I could effectively take on white/yellow cons without much fear of dying unless more joined the fight. This is *NOT* possible here when even trying to kill off a blue seems unreasonable.

Green should take almost no effort to kill.

Light blue should take slight effort and give very little xp as a result.

Dark blue should be slightly ess than adequately challenging and give slightly reduced xp.

White should be an "even con" and closely match the difficulty you should be fighting, providing a normal amount of xp.

Yellow should be far more risky to engage solo yet provide reasonably more xp for the effort.

Red should be mostly unkillable unless in a group, being able to kite, or being highly twinked.


I wouldn't still be playing here if I wasn't somewhat enjoying this game and I do appreciate the work that the Dev's here have put in - but to ignore the issue or claim entirely that there isn't one is not going to fix it. I can't speak for the OP but the reason for posting was not to "QQ" as you put it. I enjoy being here and want to continue to play here - I simply think the issue needs to be addressed or at least given further consideration by the Devs.

If any of you Devs would be willing to give honest consideration into this matter and need more to work off of, I would be more than happy to activate one of my Live accounts to do comparison work for you to show how far off the miss rate is from there to here. Simply PM me and I'll make it happen.

[bionicbadger]

"light blue" isn't even classic but I'm assuming thats a client side thing that can't be fixed.
Melee doesn't seem that far off from what I remember.

[km2783]

You people missing a lot, is the weapon skill and offense maxed for your character? Just thought I'd ask, if it was already said I missed it.

It seemed like my Ranger this time around missed a lot, but I just assumed it was because he was a low level chump with a rusty weapon and 80 or 85 str. :D It IS irritating as hell to miss 5 times in a row against a gnoll walking away.

I recall only soloing blues well with my Monk or Bard in melee.

[Ruinous]

Both weapon skill and offense are capped well before being able to level with how long it takes to try to melee anything to death.

[Ossigor]

you're not going to solo blues on a warrior unless you're really twinked, past level 8 or so. That's just how EQ was. Now missing that much on greens, maybe there is some merit behind that, but as said you'll need a bigger sample size to prove anything. It *was* that brutal, as the comics above imply... Team up, find a duo partner, make friends, or reroll something solo friendly

[Korst]

I've noticed a fairly large number of misses and low damage hits over the last few days in Blackburrow, even with the majority of my targets being green and light blue.

Anecdotal at best, and it's been too many years to remember how effective melee was on my monk during the low levels.

But I've had a hell of a time taking dark blues, something that feels odd to me since I mostly soloed my way to 50 ( due to timezone conflicts ) a decade ago without too much grief.

If I get a chance to play again tonight I'll parse a few thousand swings and see what it all averages out to.

[Dantes]

I thought the same thing when I started, but I managed. Then I rolled a necro - he seems to hit twice as often as my warrior and his skills aren't even maxed out. Although I can't say that it seems like the game is any harder than it was during live for my warrior. Excessive misses, yes, but can I say it wasn't that way in live? I don't remember.

[Yoite]

until you get lvl 20 you will notice your skills are label Awful and Feeble etc, once you get 100+ in a skill does it change to Master. At lvl 20 you will start to not suck with melee but even then its still bad, but once you get into your 40s you're hitting pretty often. I lvled a war up to 45 on this server.

i guess what im saying is all yall low lvls saying i miss a lot, its b/c you're low lvl and low lvls miss a lot. even if the mobs dont...ya i know its not very fair, but that's eq. the mobs pwn.

[eqdruid76]

until you get lvl 20 you will notice your skills are label Awful and Feeble etc, once you get 100+ in a skill does it change to Master. At lvl 20 you will start to not suck with melee but even then its still bad, but once you get into your 40s you're hitting pretty often. I lvled a war up to 45 on this server.

i guess what im saying is all yall low lvls saying i miss a lot, its b/c you're low lvl and low lvls miss a lot. even if the mobs dont...ya i know its not very fair, but that's eq. the mobs pwn.

I think the point is that they realize low levels miss a lot, but that they miss a lot more than they did as untwinked low levels in classic live.

I wonder if anyone bothered to save some combat logs from 99? Or maybe some screenies? (although screenies' data would be limited to a single combat or less). That might have some data to compare P99's numbers with.

It's hard to chalk it up to imagination when so many people are saying the same thing, and the ones discounting it either don't play a melee or played melee twinked.

[Morndenkainen]

until you get lvl 20 you will notice your skills are label Awful and Feeble etc, once you get 100+ in a skill does it change to Master. At lvl 20 you will start to not suck with melee but even then its still bad, but once you get into your 40s you're hitting pretty often. I lvled a war up to 45 on this server.

i guess what im saying is all yall low lvls saying i miss a lot, its b/c you're low lvl and low lvls miss a lot. even if the mobs dont...ya i know its not very fair, but that's eq. the mobs pwn.

Yes, but thats not how it was in live... In live the mobs defenses seemed to scale better to the actual level of the attacker, and your ability to hit them INCREASED as you leveled up. I know this because I pretty much solo'd a warrior all the way up into the mid 20's before I had a good enough weapon and gear to where people would let me tank for them. No one wanted to let a regularly geared warrior tank at first. It was annoying to say the least... The issue here, is that the skills do not scale correctly with the difficulty of the mobs. Yes, it may work fine at level 40+, however, it does not work fine for levels 1-40. I dont know how the server calculates hits/misses so I really dont have a perfect fix that is guaranteed to work for it just a suggestion. Im just pointing out that there IS a problem.

Look at it from this perspective.. Say the base miss rate actually is 35%... modified, by mob's skill in defense+ac vs the attackers offense+weaponskill/2 + Atk.

A level 5 gnoll should have a defense skill of 30, and lets say an ac of 100. If we take a level 5 warrior, with an offense of 30, and a weapon skill of 30, add em, and divide by 2, we get 30. Add in the ATK of 100 (or whatever due to gear), and you come up with an even value between the two. Which means that warrior should have a base miss rate of 35%, which it actually is..

Now, take that same level 5 gnoll, and attack it with a level 12 warrior with an offense of 65, and weapon skill of 65, for a TV of 65 Lets say the ATK is now 200. The warriors base skill, is 35 points higher than the defense of the gnoll, and the ATK is 100 points higher... Why does it still take just as long to kill the gnoll if the current system isnt broken? Even if you cut the values in half, you should still have atleast a 17% bonus to hit the gnoll due to level, which would make your base miss rate 18%, and since I cant say for sure what the ATK vs AC value does, (Perhaps it affects how often you get a "full damage" hit), you should not only be missing ALOT less, but doing more full damage hits...

This still means that even with max skills, fighting a mob your own level, your still going to miss 35% of the time, but it definatley would fix the problem of getting your ass handed to you by a lt.blue or green mob because you cant friggin hit it on a regular basis, and when you do, your only doing a couple points of damage.

[Morndenkainen]

I think the point is that they realize low levels miss a lot, but that they miss a lot more than they did as untwinked low levels in classic live.

I wonder if anyone bothered to save some combat logs from 99? Or maybe some screenies? (although screenies' data would be limited to a single combat or less). That might have some data to compare P99's numbers with.

It's hard to chalk it up to imagination when so many people are saying the same thing, and the ones discounting it either don't play a melee or played melee twinked.

You know... Thats a damn good thought on the matter... You've got all these high levs twinking out their lowbies to a point where they might not even notice the horrible miss rates, because they dont play up their alts the way people who are just starting out do.

[Dantes]

I miss often with dual wield 1H slashers - I don't think it's isolated to 2H slash. I really don't think it's related to all melee, more likely class specific. Like I said it seems like my damn Necromancer can hit twice as often as my warrior - and often to maximum damage, as if he needed yet another advantage. We're definitely gimped, but the question is whether or not that's how it was during live. All I can remember is, life sucked as a warrior. I always fought in groups.

[Morndenkainen]

I miss often with dual wield 1H slashers - I don't think it's isolated to 2H slash. I really don't think it's related to all melee, more likely class specific. Like I said it seems like my damn Necromancer can hit twice as often as my warrior - and often to maximum damage, as if he needed yet another advantage. We're definitely gimped, but the question is whether or not that's how it was during live. All I can remember is, life sucked as a warrior. I always fought in groups.

I dont suppose you could do me a huge favor could you? Fight something with your necro, and post a pic showing the hit/miss results like I did? As well as his stats? It would really help out, especially if it does turn out to be class specific...

[Yoite]

http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20000822

[YendorLootmonkey]

I played a melee in classic, untwinked. I play a melee here, same class, untwinked. I never spent any time on any other EQ emus. Morn, if that's your character in the screenshots you provided, based on the name, then you know I'm legit. :P Did you have this same issue with your rogue?

I distinctly remember never being able to solo a blue mob after about level 4-5 with getting my ass beat and ending up at less than 50% health. Both in classic and here. Yeah, I saw some untwinked warriors and monks solo some stuff, but they spent the next 5-10 minutes bind wounding and sitting their asses down until they healed back up.

I don't have statistics on miss rates and such. I do know that on my 1HS with a 7/24 dmg/delay ratio, my max hit is 14, which means I'm getting up to a 7-point damage bonus applied every 2.4 seconds if I hit. I want that damage bonus to be applied as often as possible, which is why they tell you to put your lowest delay 1HS in your main hand.

I have never used a 2HS, so I don't know how the damage bonus works. If I remember correctly, sometime around Kunark they did a 2H weapon damage adjustment, which means currently 2H weapon damage is probably gimped. Here's all I could find on it... maybe it only applies to post-level-50:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=253

But it seemed to indicate that 2H weapon damage wasn't really ever on par with 1H weapon damage. If there is any sort of damage bonus, it is being applied much less often than with a 1H weapon. Not to mention the aggro potential you're losing out on by not using a faster weapon.

So my theory still stands... unless you have some godly ratio on your 2HS weapon, you may want to distance yourself from the whole 2H weapon thing and work on your 1HS in preparation for when you get dual wield. I *think* you will get better results than what you're getting right now.

No I don't have old/new parses to compare. Just going off of what we know of game mechanics. And then again, I could be horribly wrong and the damage tables for 2H weapons are all out of whack. Since I don't have any experience with them, it would be transparent to me.

[Dantes]

Sure, I can do that later this evening. I'm actually kind of curious now to go drop some decaying skeletons with the 8th level necro armed with his newbie dagger and then compare to that to my lvl 15 warrior armed with a thulian claw + tentacle whip. I think the argument that hit/miss and max damage in relation to the level of the mob vs your level has merit. I only wish I had data from live to compared it to.

[Morndenkainen]

Yendor, im not trying to hide my char name, Its a legit problem within the game that needs to be adressed. Who knows, if a fix is found to be in order perhaps you'll feel grateful and donate some cool 1h weaps to me out of gratitude.. Maybe not... As far as the damage bonus goes, Im swinging a FS2H that does 12/43. When I hit, its for 24dmg. when I crit now, I've hit from 48 to 96(Crippling blow) Swinging a 2h weap isnt about being on par with anything, or doing max DPS. I dont need the thread turning into a debate about which weapons are better, just wether or not the hit/miss ratio is off. Its about the occasional big numbers and being a barbarian running around with a 2h sword chopping shit in half.

Anyways, a couple more screenshots,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4619762724/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4619127143/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4619225965/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41248453@N03/4619247565/sizes/l/

Adding up all the hit/miss ratio I've come up with 90 total attacks, 32 of thoes were total misses, and 37 gimped damage So for a level 12 warrior fignting a level 5ish mob a miss rate of 35%, and a gimped damage rate of about 41%, and an actual effective hit rate of 14%... Thats pretty bad considering im attacking something 7 levels lower... I mean, only doing full hit damage 14% of the time to a target thats much lower level??? There isnt something wrong with that?

[Yoite]

I think it has less to do with the mobs being 7 lvls lower than you and more of it being that you are only lvl 12 therefore your skills are still low.

[Morndenkainen]

I think it has less to do with the mobs being 7 lvls lower than you and more of it being that you are only lvl 12 therefore your skills are still low.

I dont think you quite read the entire original post which WAS recently edited.. However, the argument remains, that my skills are 35 points higher than a level 5 mob's skills should be, plus the difference in ATK rating... Therefore it stands to reason that I shouldnt be missing nearly as much.

[Yoite]

You're still looking at it as fighting a mob 7 lvls lower not that you're only lvl 12. a lvl 40 fighting a 33 doesnt have the same problems. You will hit and for full majority of the time.

You're skill may be 35 points higher than that lvl 5 but at lvl 12 its still only 60 out of 250 skill points.

[Morndenkainen]

You're still looking at it as fighting a mob 7 lvls lower not that you're only lvl 12. a lvl 40 fighting a 33 doesnt have the same problems. You will hit and for full majority of the time.

You're skill may be 35 points higher than that lvl 5 but at lvl 12 its still only 60 out of 250 skill points.

Given that logic, a level 1 player, with 0 skill should never hit anything or miss nearly every time.. Which doesnt happen... Face it, there's an issue that does need to be corrected.

[Yoite]

a lvl 1 with 0 skill does miss nearly every time though

[Ruinous]

Our skills in weapons and offense may be low compared to a level 50, but we're not fighting level 50 monsters. They are appropriate for fighting monsters of our level. If you're taking the stance that just because we're low level we are supposed to miss mobs no matter what level they are, you're incorrect. Level difference is, or is supposed to be, taken into consideration when fighting mobs.

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

[Morndenkainen]

Yoite, No, they dont, if they did, they wouldnt be able to kill anything before getting killed...

Ruinous, Some of its level based.. I noticed once I hit level 12, I was able to crit, AND the damage went up from 20/hit to 24/hit... Also, in going up to 13, the kick damage went from 6 to 8...

Damage caps seem to be level based, so far... But the reality of the situation is that a level 1 hits about as often against a level 1 mob, as a level 12 does against a level 5 mob... There's something wrong with the hit/miss formula that does not scale correctly.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Our skills in weapons and offense may be low compared to a level 50, but we're not fighting level 50 monsters. They are appropriate for fighting monsters of our level. If you're taking the stance that just because we're low level we are supposed to miss mobs no matter what level they are, you're incorrect. Level difference is, or is supposed to be, taken into consideration when fighting mobs.

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

Remember that we all have a damage cap until level 20.

Here's some more info here... not sure how classic it is, since it talks about bane damage and such, but I would assume the basics are still correct:

http://old.eqcircle.com/articles/startingout/weaponbasics.htm

To note:

"Delay, and DMG. DMG refers to the base damage of the weapon when whacking stuff, when you are below level 10, the DMG tends to be around a maximum of 2 x the DMG +1. So if the swords base damage is 3 you can do 7 damage with it. When you reach level 10 you will probably notice your damage being more rounded, and when you reach level 20 the damage cap will increase.

A few things effect your damage past level 20, the base DMG of the weapon as before, the base AC of the monster your hitting and your strength. The stronger you are the more rounded damage seems to be (your average hit will be higher), it also seems to give you a slightly higher maximum damage but I'm not aware of the true effect."

[President]

Given that logic, a level 1 player, with 0 skill should never hit anything or miss nearly every time.. Which doesnt happen... Face it, there's an issue that does need to be corrected.

Nothing looks out of the ordinary dude. 35% miss rate is not out of the ordinary for a level 12. Hitting for less than max damage is not out of the ordinary. One of those mobs was light blue as well, not just green.

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

Yes - Have you checked to see if the person with 40-50 higher strength is doing full damage more often than the caster?

I would suggest, if you want anything changed, start finding actual information from live or in 1999 and comparing it to here. The dev's aren't going to adjust this into E Z mode based on the complaints of 2 people in the last 6 months who only have their memory as proof and are still in their low teens.

Another thing to note is that it is probably impossible to exactly replicate the combat system of live. I am sure things are *slightly* different but what is balanced is the difficulty. You are going through green mobs relatively easily, having a bit harder time with light blues, and struggling with blues, which is how warriors were back in the day..

[YendorLootmonkey]

Here, I also found this... most of the graphs don't work, but you can read through some of the math involved. It seems to agree with the sub-20th level damage being gimped because you're not getting some damage bonuses. Unfortunately, it doesn't talk about hit ratio... just the distribution of damage points inflicted per swing:

http://web.archive.org/web/20031007002016/http://forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/viewtopic.php?t=54615

[Morndenkainen]

President, a 35% miss rate could be expected with a level 12 character fighting against a level 12 mob, however, when your skills and ATK exceed the skills and AC of a MUCH lower level, or untwinked mob, you should be hitting them more often, and doing full damage more often, that is simply not the case here.

Do you not understand this concept? A mob of the equivalent level should be more difficult to hit, than a mob that's 7 levels below you. At that point, you outclass that mob by 35 points in the skill, which SHOULD grant some kind of bonus to hit the damn thing. Which is why, in LIVE EQ, in 1999, I was able to successfully solo a warrior to level 23 before HAVING to group just to progress. Otherwise, why is it that you are level 5, you cant solo a level 12 mob? You cant even hit the thing and you get assraped... Face it, something isnt right with the system the way its setup. Mathematical equations are supposed to work from both ends.

In this case, 5X = 25 should also mean that 25/X = 5.. That equation goes both ways, However, the way the thing is currently set up, it looks more like 25/X = (Z) any random number you feel like putting there. Mathematically, the hit/miss soloution simply does not track correctly, and since the results are wrong, the method used to compute the results must be wrong. It has to be wrong, because it is NOT consistent. The only thing that makes me more likely to beat a lower level enemy at this point is simply the number of hitpoints I have, or wether I have the doge/parry skill that I did not used to have at level 5 when I first started killing these gnolls. 7 levels later, they can still do significant damage before they die, simply on account of the number of times that I miss them. Skills aside, if you take away 7 levels worth of HP and leave the skills/abilites at level 12 levels, I'd still be at risk of dying while fighting them simply because I cant hit them.

Im sorry math and logic isnt your strongest point with regards to this issue, but the fact remains that mathematically, the system just doesnt add up correctly like it did in live. Here's a challenge directly to your line of logic... Find some pics or data from live that prove ME wrong, since the mathematical aspect alone should be more than enough to prove me right... I mean hell, just as a joke, the GM's should spawn a decaying skeleton with 5000 hp and let a pure melee level 50 char with no buffs or stat boosting gear (just FS or bronze armor, and a FS or bronze weapons of choice and with all relevant weapon skills/stats at max) fight it just to count the hits/misses. That alone should prove my point. The skeleton will hit way too often, and the player will probably miss often enough to get killed.

[Morndenkainen]

Here, I also found this... most of the graphs don't work, but you can read through some of the math involved. It seems to agree with the sub-20th level damage being gimped because you're not getting some damage bonuses. Unfortunately, it doesn't talk about hit ratio... just the distribution of damage points inflicted per swing:

http://web.archive.org/web/20031007002016/http://forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/viewtopic.php?t=54615

We've known for quite a while that sub-20 damage has been gimped. Its not the damage output that is making this near un-playable for pure melee, its the fact that we cant hit something 7 levels below us.. You give that mob thats 7 levels lower 500 more HP, and leave the rest of its stats alone, and it'll still easily kill a level 12 character that only relies on melee. Consider this, you give a pure melee level 5 character a good size HP buff with no other buffs or regeneration. 500hp should be more than enough. Is he then going to be able to kill a level 12 mob? I didnt think so, because he wont be able to hit it like the level 5 mobs can hit a level 12 player. Im sure the response will be that he doesnt have the skills, and thats preventing him from being able to do it, but why then do the mobs have the skills to do the job when the situation is reversed? The math doesnt add up, so by that virtue alone, the system isnt right yet.. In live, it worked both ways.. Here, it doesnt.

[Morndenkainen]

On second thought, would any dev or GM take this seriously enough to test it and post the results just to see if im right about melee being broken all the way to the top of the level bracket??

Spawn a level 1 decaying skeleton with 5000 hp and let a pure melee level 50 char with no buffs or stat boosting gear (cloth armor and rusty weapons) fight it just to count the hits/misses. and only level 1 skills allowed. No dual weild, no double attack, no level 50 kick, riposte, bash, disarm, ect... That alone should prove my point. The skeleton will hit way too often, and the player will probably miss often enough to get killed. Yeah, I know the fight will take forever, but that will give you plenty of time to generate an accurate hit/miss ratio. Im sure we can all agree that the miss rate for the level 50 attacking the level 1 should be 5% or less, and the skelly trying to hit the level 50, should be missing atleast 95% of the time.

Then, reduce the char level by 10, and the skelly HP by 1000, rinse and repeat, to find out exactly where the chain is broken from. Im sure at some point, you will see a HUGE spike in the miss rate, and that itself should tell you what's broken and where.. I know its work, but isnt everything?

[President]

Nothing you have posted so far would be enough for a dev to overhaul the entire melee system. You have only compared what you see now to your "memory." Considering you claim to have solod to level 23 as a warrior on classic, your memory has lost a lot of credibility because no one in their right mind would do that.

Check out the fixed bug section on the forums. What gets attention? People that post information comparing FACTS from live classic, to facts here. Dev's more than likely are not going to attempt to overhaul the entire combat system based on two peoples memory when no one has complained after they fixed melee 6 months ago.

Anyway, I am done trying to give you advice on what you need to find to actually get action on this post. Your latest pathetic attempts at insulting me have made me realized I would rather just see you quit over this than have another temperamental baby on the server.

[President]

Oh and btw. I just killed three level 10-12 things on my level 50 - Didn't miss once.

http://i.imgur.com/mpj45.jpg

[Elendae]

This is one of those things that is tested every day, day in, day out, by every one on the server. I guarantee if this was actually an issue it'd be talked about at every opportunity. It's not against the rules to post something like this, but a better idea would have been to post it in the Server Chat forum and get feedback from other players instead of wasting time here.

[President]

I'll let you count up the misses.. level 50 warrior vs light blue Sand Giant...

http://i.imgur.com/7AFxw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0uIjk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/u8lra.jpg

[eqdruid76]

Nothing you have posted so far would be enough for a dev to overhaul the entire melee system. You have only compared what you see now to your "memory." Considering you claim to have solod to level 23 as a warrior on classic, your memory has lost a lot of credibility because no one in their right mind would do that.

Check out the fixed bug section on the forums. What gets attention? People that post information comparing FACTS from live classic, to facts here. Dev's more than likely are not going to attempt to overhaul the entire combat system based on two peoples memory when no one has complained after they fixed melee 6 months ago.

Anyway, I am done trying to give you advice on what you need to find to actually get action on this post. Your latest pathetic attempts at insulting me have made me realized I would rather just see you quit over this than have another temperamental baby on the server.

News flash. Everyone playing on Project1999 is a tempermental baby.

And the problem with your logic is that it isn't just one player whining. It's pretty much every untwinked melee toon. Misses ARE out of line with live, for all classes. It's worse for pure melees, because they don't have spells to fire off when they get sick of whiffing 12 times in a row against greens.

Decaying skeleton is actually a good example. On live, when my druid was level 9, he could melee kill that particular mob in no more than 3 hits, sans damage shield. Here, it could take 20, using the same gear I had on live at the time (cloth armor drops and a jaggedpine crook). Conversely, on live, if I went /afk with a damage shield on, and said mob aggroed me, I could come back and it would still be whiffing. Whereas on P99, I can aggro every skellie in the zone and alt tab out refresh the forums, come back, and loot 10 corpses, who each connected with all of their hits and were destroyed by the DS.

Try to understand, not everyone has a faulty memory. Bugs have been posted regarding this issue several times, and I'm sure it's being looked at. It's just a huge pain in the ass for pure melees at this time. Especially warriors using 2 handers.

Now, here's another question, specifically to Nilbog. Aren't weapons with longer delays coded to miss less? If not, what is the incentive to use one? Isn't the damage bonus moot if the attack doesn't land?

[eqdruid76]

I'll let you count up the misses.. level 50 warrior vs light blue Sand Giant...

http://i.imgur.com/7AFxw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0uIjk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/u8lra.jpg

And what's your point? That a level 50 doesn't miss as much against a sand giant as a level 12 would?...

[President]

News flash. Everyone playing on Project1999 is a tempermental baby.

And the problem with your logic is that it isn't just one player whining. It's pretty much every untwinked melee toon. Misses ARE out of line with live, for all classes. It's worse for pure melees, because they don't have spells to fire off when they get sick of whiffing 12 times in a row against greens.

Every untwinked toon? Really? I mean, I remember that when the server opened before they fixed them, but every untwinked toon? This forum would be flooded with people complaining.

Decaying skeleton is actually a good example. On live, when my druid was level 9, he could melee kill that particular mob in no more than 3 hits, sans damage shield. Here, it could take 20, using the same gear I had on live at the time (cloth armor drops and a jaggedpine crook). Conversely, on live, if I went /afk with a damage shield on, and said mob aggroed me, I could come back and it would still be whiffing. Whereas on P99, I can aggro every skellie in the zone and alt tab out refresh the forums, come back, and loot 10 corpses, who each connected with all of their hits and were destroyed by the DS.

I do believe that mobs hitting PC's is slightly off, but I don't care enough to go into it. Can you show me on P99 that a level 9 druid wouldn't be able to kill a decaying skele that quick? I'd bet it would.

Try to understand, not everyone has a faulty memory. Bugs have been posted regarding this issue several times, and I'm sure it's being looked at. It's just a huge pain in the ass for pure melees at this time. Especially warriors using 2 handers.

Did I say everyone has a faulty memory? Nope, I sure didn't. Did I say that the dev's are probably not going to waste a ton of time trying to overhaul a melee system that works *pretty darn well* due to a handful of peoples memory? Yes. It was a pain in the ass on live, and is a pain in the ass on P99.

Now, here's another question, specifically to Nilbog. Aren't weapons with longer delays coded to miss less? If not, what is the incentive to use one? Isn't the damage bonus moot if the attack doesn't land?

It's been posted elsewhere, but I believe on live 2h damage was "fixed" until Kunark or Velious. Though, I can't say the devs have implemented or planned on this.

[President]

And what's your point? That a level 50 doesn't miss as much against a sand giant as a level 12 would?...

It was In response to this...

Spawn a level 1 decaying skeleton with 5000 hp and let a pure melee level 50 char with no buffs or stat boosting gear (cloth armor and rusty weapons) fight it just to count the hits/misses. and only level 1 skills allowed. No dual weild, no double attack, no level 50 kick, riposte, bash, disarm, ect... That alone should prove my point. The skeleton will hit way too often, and the player will probably miss often enough to get killed. Yeah, I know the fight will take forever, but that will give you plenty of time to generate an accurate hit/miss ratio. Im sure we can all agree that the miss rate for the level 50 attacking the level 1 should be 5% or less, and the skelly trying to hit the level 50, should be missing atleast 95% of the time.

Reading the thread generally helps, though I know his gibberish is tough to get through.

[YendorLootmonkey]

President... were your screenshots using 1H weapons or 2H weapons? If it was using 1H weapons, could you try using a 2H weapon? Maybe it's just one damage table that's broke. I dunno... just throwing ideas out there since 1HS seems fine to me.

Maybe if I can find an old-school parser, I'll do some parsing on Friday with Morn against some different level shit to see if there's any huge difference between 1HS and 2HS.

[dali_lb]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but classical melee was always this way.

There is absolutely none of the posted SS's that show any hit ratio that seems out of proportions.

When EQ went live, Warriors was the most horrible class, Pallies was somewhat better but still poo. Rangers was only melee that was able to solo decent.

Also Keep in mind that 2H has a considerably higher miss rate because of its often better dps than 1H.

So yes, you can at lvl 12 fighting a lvl 5 with a 2h. get several misses in a row even your skills is maxed, and then roll a low 2-3dmg hit and then roll a crit and hit for 6. Your not supposed to be guarantied 3 crits of 48 dmg in a row just because you fight a considerably lower lvl mob.

Those things only happen in WoW.

[Omnimorph]

As a 47 enchanter with fairly decent skill in 1hb, i recall being able to kill decaying skellies like mentioned in 3 or 4 hits. I do miss alot more on this server than i remember.

But then i'm not that concerned that i can't melee to death a greenie :p

[Jify]

Wow... I miss a lot more than that on my bard.

Nerf warriors!

[dali_lb]

Then move on to eg caster NPC's.

The system in EQ was always the way that "caster mobs" "cheated", cause they hit (melee) like a melee npc. they have the same hp as a melee npc and they on to that nuke the shit out of you.

Buhuuu ... everyone whined about that also on live, even the npc casters there usually didn't use the highest lvl spells that theoretically were available for them, wich made caster npc's relative easy for classes like mages, necroes, druids, wizards that could keep them away from melee range and just nuke them, cause the PC usually nuked for considerably higher dmg than the npc, with the exception of healer npc's that always was a challenge.

Melee sure aint the part that has issues. There's more issues in that npc's on every EMU server resist magic a bit too well, and the casters use the highest available spells for them, wich makes caster NPC's a real challenge here.

The fact is, EQ was designed this way. Live with it or don't play

[Morndenkainen]

President, I hate to point this out to you, but you missed a whopping 0 times in there.. out of 103 attacks, only 19 did full damage (under the assumption your full dmg is 29/hit and 18/kick). Thats normal for live, because the mob is 7 levels below you. The point is, you too are fighting a light blue mob, and have an exeptionally high hit rate. Yes, you can TRY and claim there's is a skill difference between a level 12 and a level 50, but the reality is that your skills still exceede the sand giants defensive skills by a mere 30-35 points... (Assuming your 6-7 levels higher) YES, You ABSOLOUTLY, should still be missing occasionally. You should be missing the same amount that I am. You arent... Face it, Combat is not right yet. At this point its looking like the game is going off of the attack skills of the player alone, rather than the attack skills of the player, minus the defenses of the mob which it did in live.

As to your claim that every player would be flooding the forums with complaints? No, not really, a fair number of them probably still feel like a forum is too big a maze to navigate.. Face it, you've probably got 50 people in the whole system out of what, 750-1000 now? that contribute to 90% of the forum content. I highly doubt every untwinked noob with a keyboard would end up here complaining.

Omnimorph, Thats exactly my point, at level 47, with decent skill in 1h bash, you should not be missing, you wouldnt have on live. Well, once maybe, but it shouldnt take 3-4 swings to kill a level 1 mob at level 47.. How would you feel if that level 1, with a larger number of hps was still able to melee you to death if you didnt use any magic at your current level?

Dali, 1. its not an issue of 1h weapons vs 2h weapons, I've tried it with both, and im still getting obscene miss rates with 1h weapons. 2. please keep this to the topic. 3. This is NOT on par with classical EQ, because on classical EQ, I was able to solo into my 20's. 4. This isnt wow, please dont try to compare the two as the combat systems are completely different.

[km2783]

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

Strength doesn't come into play until lvl 20 iirc.

until lvl 20 the most you will hit with ANY weapon is 29. I believe there is a cap until 10 or so that limits it to 18-20.

This could also have something to do with what we're seeing here. Is strength not doing anything to add to people's attack rating? is it possible that strength is supposed to add to attack rating until 20, when it also adds additional damage? i'm not entirely sure how the combat mechanic works with strength, ie if it ever does both, or if by increasing attack rating it by default adds damage due to the higher attack number.

[Dantes]

It seems excessive but it's not inhibiting me from playing the game. I have leveled to 15 as a warrior and I will continue to level without problems. I just seem to miss a lot more often than I remember. I really just can't wait to get to level 20 so those caps are lifted. That's when being a warrior started to be fun.

[Yoite]

President doesn't miss against that light blue mob b/c he is 50. You're missing against light blues mobs b/c you're only 12. That's all I'm seeing here.

[Cogwell]

With all due respect to those on both sides, you're taking extremely small sample sizes and making sweeping conclusions from them. This is the same as someone who sees that it's snowing in March, and therefore discounts global climate change.

Honestly, heres what I think is happening - its called the Ladder of Inference.

Since you're starting with the assumption that miss rate is high, every time you have a statistical outlier (a fight in which you miss a lot versus a lower level mob) you remember it, since it supports your assumption. When you WTFPWN a blue by not missing much and hitting hard, when it does the opposite, you don't even think about it and go about your business.

Furthermore, at low level you don't have all the tools to bolster a miss rate in the 30s (which honestly sounds just about right or even a tad low, from what i remember from classic). At 15, you're not double attacking and dual wielding frequently - at high level when you quad most rounds and miss 1-2 each quad, you probably won't even think much of it.

Of course I've had fights against blues where it went poorly, but I've also had fights against whites where at the end I was at the same life % I started it with.

[girth]

I think caster NPCs are more broken then melee, but you may be somewhat correct. Melee has gotten 100000 times better than it was at release. I had to quit my monk, and I'm still not sure I can go back to him since they seem to have an avoidance issue that still has them taking too much damage - which actually could just be from an issue like this.

But caster npc's - that is what you should make a post about.

[Bruman]

Currently my monk misses a lot, regardless if I'm in a group fighting a red or a green skeleton that I ran too close to. My special attack often does the minimum damage (1) instead of it's max (in the 40s or 50s).

However, I remember the exact same experience on live. Chasing down a green mob and firing awesome quad-misses. Flying Kick only hitting for 3. Stupid crap like that.

I want to say I remember a patch where Flying Kick at least was buffed to have a higher minimum damage, but in general, this is how I remember things being. Could I be wrong? Definitely, but it doesn't seem that out of order to me.

[Morndenkainen]

President doesn't miss against that light blue mob b/c he is 50. You're missing against light blues mobs b/c you're only 12. That's all I'm seeing here.

Yeah, and that tends to support my conclusion, as the light blue he's fighting is a good 35-40 levels higher than the one im fighting. Even at level 50, you should still miss occasionally, if you look at his fight, he doesnt miss once. Sure there's plenty of times where he doesnt hit for max damage, as he should, however he's not suffering from the same miss rate that a lower level player is wherein the skill differences are the same... Remember, a level 5 mob, has a defense skill of 30, compared to a level 12 players offense/wepon skill X 1/2 = 65 A 35 point difference.? Were the miss rate consistent, the level 40 giant would have a defense skill of 205, compared to a level 50 chars offense skill + weapon skill X1/2 of 255, which is a 50 skill point difference.. Are you then trying to state that a mere 15 points of skill reduces the miss rate from about 40% to 0%? That doesnt make sense at all, because by that math, I should NEVER miss a level 1 or 2 creature, which I still do occasionally. The reason I should never miss, is that I outclass a level 1 or 2 creatures defense by 60 points, which is even 10 more of a difference than what President has... Face it, either he should be missing alot more, or lower level chars should be missing alot less. Even if I were to count that giant at a direct level relationship between me and president and say he was fighting a level 43, with a defense of 220, it would only skew the difference farther in my favor and support the conclusion even more strongly. Either he should miss more, or I should hit more...

Girth, regarding your post, I've fought 2 caster NPC's and gotten wiped out both times. 2 fights does not give me enough experience to say wether or not theyre broken.. However, the countless Melee fights i've been in have left me with the conclusion that melee is seriously skewed the wrong way (atleast at untwinked lower levels).

Bruman, Yeah, it happened on live from time to time, I remember playing a monk there as well, but it didnt happen nearly as often as it seems to happen here. Like I said, I was able to solo with a warrior to 23 on live without serious issues.. Here, im struggling at 13, and I've narrowed it down to pretty much the hit rate alone. Yeah, getting hit harder than I think I should be with the armor im wearing is kinda annoying, but Its hard to tell if thats out of line.. As i've repeatedly said though, the miss rate? That is out of line...

[President]

Once again your posts are all assumptions and memory even in the face of multiple people telling you nothing is wrong.

You really ought to find some facts from 1999 to back up what you are saying or your really just wasting your time.

[Yoite]

at lvl 50 President has 250 skill, thats why he doesnt miss a lot. You only have 60, thats why you miss a lot.

You are trying to say the differance between a lvl 12 vs 5 and a lvl 50 vs 43 is the same when it is not. Just b/c the differences in skill points between these mobs are the same you will not get the same results b/c the skill points are much higher on the higher lvl mobs. Its not so much that there is a difference of 35 points between the PCs atk skill and the mobs def skill, its more about having higher skill lvl.

I dont know how else to tell ya that at low lvls your char sucks and as you lvl you get more badass. Thats how it goes.

[Morndenkainen]

Once again your posts are all assumptions and memory even in the face of multiple people telling you nothing is wrong.

You really ought to find some facts from 1999 to back up what you are saying or your really just wasting your time.

Well, with people like you telling me im wrong, without explaining the how or why, im not too keen to listen. 2+2=4 is a fact, not an assumption. In order for my assumption to be wrong, there's got to be a variable in place that shouldnt be where it is.. If you've got a formula or explanation from a legitimate source, other than your memory, that shows how what you are saying is right, PLEASE SHARE IT! Apparenlty my memory serves well enough to notice the problem though, because for every person you think has said im wrong, another is saying im right. At anyrate, if you arent going to debate this intelligently or offer an actual reason why im wrong, other than what you "remember" you shouldnt expect anyone to take you seriously. Seeing as you have no respect for anyone elses memory that doesnt support your own, you shouldnt be trying to use yours as a factual basis for anything either. If you dont think mine is right, then the same argument applies to you. Meanwhile, please crunch some numbers, and support your arugments with fact rather than fiction.

[Morndenkainen]

at lvl 50 President has 250 skill, thats why he doesnt miss a lot. You only have 60, thats why you miss a lot.

You are trying to say the differance between a lvl 12 vs 5 and a lvl 50 vs 43 is the same when it is not. Just b/c the differences in skill points between these mobs are the same you will not get the same results b/c the skill points are much higher on the higher lvl mobs. Its not so much that there is a difference of 35 points between the PCs atk skill and the mobs def skill, its more about having higher skill lvl.

I dont know how else to tell ya that at low lvls your char sucks and as you lvl you get more badass. Thats how it goes.

Well, whats broken really is the way hits and misses are calculated. Eh, not broken, just not right. Obviously somethings working to cacluate em, its just not accurate to the original EQ method. Because at level 50, he should still be missing occasionally against mobs that are around his level. Or even a little below. Remember, he's attacking something with a defense thats much closer to his attack skill than mine.

I never said it didnt suck and that you dont get more badass as you level, If you read what I had to say properly, it could easily be assumed that you would, because you'd have an easier and easier time killing things that were one, then two, then five levels below you.

[President]

*sigh* It's really not worth talking to you anymore.

[Morndenkainen]

*sigh* It's really not worth talking to you anymore.

Well, since you dont have anything constructive to offer, I suppose not.

[President]

Well, since you dont have anything constructive to offer, I suppose not.

Dev's are looking at this board all the time. Do you know why they haven't responded to this one? Because you are not giving ANY evidence that it was difference from Live. Only whining about the miss rate.

Enjoy beating your head against the wall longer.

[Morndenkainen]

Dev's are looking at this board all the time. Do you know why they haven't responded to this one? Because you are not giving ANY evidence that it was difference from Live. Only whining about the miss rate.

Enjoy beating your head against the wall longer.

Yeah, well I havent seen anything from you supporting anything you've laid claim to.. The pictures you posted of your fight, actually supported my argument that showed the miss rate was tied TOO directly to skills rather than the actual level of the mob or the defense rate of the mob.

As far as why they havent responded, thats for them to know. Not you.

[km2783]

I had a thought. You guys know this was based on Dungeons and Dragons, right?

Low level characters were very pathetic in that game. You missed a LOT. On a 20 sided die you often had a 25% chance to hit something, depending on what it's defense was. A damned wizard could get one-shot-chumped by a FUCKING HOUSE CAT. :rolleyes:

If the devs were used to this sort of play, and obviously they certainly didn't mind things taking a long time to level (surely both for reward and their own pockets vis subscriptions), then it even makes a good bit of sense for melee characters to suck hind tit for awhile. Eventually your skills get to the point where you almost never miss, but NPCs have so many HP that it more than compensates.

[President]

Yeah, well I havent seen anything from you supporting anything you've laid claim to..

This is an invalid argument. The way it is currently in the game is the way its going to stay until YOU PROVE otherwise. I have no need to prove that it was this way because this is already HOW IT IS.

The pictures you posted of your fight, actually supported my argument that showed the miss rate was tied TOO directly to skills rather than the actual level of the mob or the defense rate of the mob.

As far as why they havent responded, thats for them to know. Not you.

Hows your head doing against that wall?

[Morndenkainen]

This is an invalid argument. The way it is currently in the game is the way its going to stay until YOU PROVE otherwise. I have no need to prove that it was this way because this is already HOW IT IS.

No, its perfectly valid, because several others remember things differently as well. Yes, its how it is, however, that is not to say that is how it should be.

Hows your head doing against that wall?

Better than yours apparently, you still havent even tried to come up with anything other than empty responses yet.

[President]

No, its perfectly valid, because several others remember things differently as well. Yes, its how it is, however, that is not to say that is how it should be.

Nope.



Better than yours apparently, you still havent even tried to come up with anything other than empty responses yet.

Sure have. I've told you what you need to do to get dev's attention and you have yet to do that. I have also posted screen shots. You claimed a level 50 would have misses against a level 1 skeleton, but I did not miss at all fighting 3 different low level mobs and around 150 hits. Aside from you and 1 other person who was crying just as hardcore as you, other people have said "they might be off." Multiple people have stated "they are not off."

Wall > your head.

[Desert]

Well, with people like you telling me im wrong, without explaining the how or why, im not too keen to listen. 2+2=4 is a fact, not an assumption. In order for my assumption to be wrong, there's got to be a variable in place that shouldnt be where it is.. If you've got a formula or explanation from a legitimate source, other than your memory, that shows how what you are saying is right, PLEASE SHARE IT! Apparenlty my memory serves well enough to notice the problem though, because for every person you think has said im wrong, another is saying im right. At anyrate, if you arent going to debate this intelligently or offer an actual reason why im wrong, other than what you "remember" you shouldnt expect anyone to take you seriously. Seeing as you have no respect for anyone elses memory that doesnt support your own, you shouldnt be trying to use yours as a factual basis for anything either. If you dont think mine is right, then the same argument applies to you. Meanwhile, please crunch some numbers, and support your arugments with fact rather than fiction.

*sigh* you've obviously been playing World of Warcraft too long, because their combat system works similarly to what you're describing. Mobs in that game do scale better in all aspects to the level of the character. Newsflash tho... This != WoW

My memory is damn good, and I remember my newbie skills being terrible. Hey, guess what people who twinked used to bitch about all the time back in the day? Surely not how bad their newbie skills suck.

Put it this way, if your skill is not above 100, Count on it Failing or Missing a Lot, and get on with your life. Or Quit, there's always that option?

[Morndenkainen]

Nope.

Sure have. I've told you what you need to do to get dev's attention and you have yet to do that. I have also posted screen shots. You claimed a level 50 would have misses against a level 1 skeleton, but I did not miss at all fighting 3 different low level mobs and around 150 hits. Aside from you and 1 other person who was crying just as hardcore as you, other people have said "they might be off." Multiple people have stated "they are not off."

Wall > your head.

I dont recall crying about it, I remember bringing up what I feel is a legitimate problem, and then being whined at by an 31337357 prick who has no working memory of anything except high end content. As soon as I finish the time travel device im building I'll be sure to go back in time, and get some actual pictures from back then detailing the hit/miss ration.. Yeah... Other than that. the only thing the devs really have to go off of is how the players feel, and what they remember.

Also, i believe that I said, was that the level 1 skelly should have about 5000 hps, and you shouldnt be using any other skills that you wouldnt normally have at level one... Just your offense and weapons skill at 255, with armor and a weapon that you could also have at level 1... Also, you clearly missed the point of everything I was trying to say with the example. Although perhaps giving the skelly a 5% miss rate and a 5% hit rate was a little generous... At anyrate, you've proven once again, you missed the point and dont really understand what your talking about.

[President]

At anyrate, you've proven once again, you missed the point and dont really understand what your talking about.

Keep making yourself look stupid.

[Morndenkainen]

*sigh* you've obviously been playing World of Warcraft too long, because their combat system works similarly to what you're describing. Mobs in that game do scale better in all aspects to the level of the character. Newsflash tho... This != WoW

My memory is damn good, and I remember my newbie skills being terrible. Hey, guess what people who twinked used to bitch about all the time back in the day? Surely not how bad their newbie skills suck.

Put it this way, if your skill is not above 100, Count on it Failing or Missing a Lot, and get on with your life. Or Quit, there's always that option?

Yes, I too remember having a high miss rate, however I know for a fact that it did not prevent me from farming gnoll guardsmen in blackburrow at this level. Its how I got to a high enough level to go to west Karana and farm bandits for their sashes and buy bronze and some FS armor on live.

[Desert]

I dont recall crying about it, I remember bringing up what I feel is a legitimate problem, and then being whined at by an 31337357 prick who has no working memory of anything except high end content. As soon as I finish the time travel device im building I'll be sure to go back in time, and get some actual pictures from back then detailing the hit/miss ration.. Yeah... Other than that. the only thing the devs really have to go off of is how the players feel, and what they remember.

Also, i believe that I said, was that the level 1 skelly should have about 5000 hps, and you shouldnt be using any other skills that you wouldnt normally have at level one... Just your offense and weapons skill at 255, with armor and a weapon that you could also have at level 1... Also, you clearly missed the point of everything I was trying to say with the example. Although perhaps giving the skelly a 5% miss rate and a 5% hit rate was a little generous... At anyrate, you've proven once again, you missed the point and dont really understand what your talking about.

What is the definition of Irony?

[Desert]

Yes, I too remember having a high miss rate, however I know for a fact that it did not prevent me from farming gnoll guardsmen in blackburrow at this level. Its how I got to a high enough level to go to west Karana and farm bandits for their sashes and buy bronze and some FS armor on live.

You're missing the point.

1. This is not Live.
2. A couple hundred other melee classes are already in the process of leveling or lvl50. If this was an issue, it would be known.

Please go away?

[Morndenkainen]

You're missing the point.

1. This is not Live.
2. A couple hundred other melee classes are already in the process of leveling or lvl50. If this was an issue, it would be known.

Please go away?

1. Its supposed to be as close to classic as possible. Im giving my input to make that possible, You should appreciate it.
2. Some of em are bitching, some of em are past the point where it matters, and some of em dont care enough about it to post on the forums, if you've not noticed, its not like the population on the server is exploding exponentially, it is growing though, and as more people join and figgure out how to use the forums, more will probably care enough to post since they'll be starting out at level 1. I can only hope you people arent as rude to them.
3. If you dont like the thread, have the decency to stay out of it.

As far as the definition of irony goes, it doesnt apply there. I gave a specific set of circumstances to attempt to test something under, and of course they were ignored, which invalidated the entire point of the test. The results your going to get over such a small data sample are prone to being wrong, and unless you've got a mob with artificially high HPS for a level 50 to beat on, your never going to get the properly view the results on the skills.. If you cant understand that, you dont need to be in the discussion.

[Tallenn]

Actually, I remember it much the same was as President.

Lower level toons miss more on greens than high level toons do on reds. The skill score has to do not just with your ability to hit mobs close to your level, but to hit PERIOD. That's the way I remember it.

It's also why I never leveled a melee or even hybrid class on live without PLing it. I got frustrated with all the misses. Right, wrong, good, or bad, that's the way it was.

[Desert]

1. Its supposed to be as close to classic as possible. Im giving my input to make that possible, You should appreciate it.
2. Some of em are bitching, some of em are past the point where it matters, and some of em dont care enough about it to post on the forums, if you've not noticed, its not like the population on the server is exploding exponentially, it is growing though, and as more people join and figgure out how to use the forums, more will probably care enough to post since they'll be starting out at level 1. I can only hope you people arent as rude to them.
3. If you dont like the thread, have the decency to stay out of it.

As far as the definition of irony goes, it doesnt apply there. I gave a specific set of circumstances to attempt to test something under, and of course they were ignored, which invalidated the entire point of the test. The results your going to get over such a small data sample are prone to being wrong, and unless you've got a mob with artificially high HPS for a level 50 to beat on, your never going to get the properly view the results on the skills.. If you cant understand that, you dont need to be in the discussion.

we're only rude to you because you're obviously too stupid to see you're arguing a pointless and baseless point.

I only say baseless because you have yet to provide a single parse. Download EQWatcher or something, and Parse a few days worth of you fighting greens and blues, email a copy of your parses to the proper recipients. If you want something done, do this, and gtfo imo

edit: and I said Days. not 1 or 2 fights. That is no proof of an issue at all.

[Morndenkainen]

we're only rude to you because you're obviously too stupid to see you're arguing a pointless and baseless point.

I only say baseless because you have yet to provide a single parse. Download EQWatcher or something, and Parse a few days worth of you fighting greens and blues, email a copy of your parses to the proper recipients. If you want something done, do this, and gtfo imo

I'll leave that to someone with the time and energy to do it correctly, with a parser, and EQWatcher or something.. Im not really interested in the actual miss % that im currently experiencing, I just know its high enough to prevent me from doing what I used to do on live, and I'd like to see someone with the skills and ability to do something about it check it out. If you dont like the thread, why do you keep coming back?

[Morndenkainen]

Actually, I remember it much the same was as President.

Lower level toons miss more on greens than high level toons do on reds. The skill score has to do not just with your ability to hit mobs close to your level, but to hit PERIOD. That's the way I remember it.

It's also why I never leveled a melee or even hybrid class on live without PLing it. I got frustrated with all the misses. Right, wrong, good, or bad, that's the way it was.

Not arguing that lower level toons miss more, Im just saying the actual rate of misses for the lower level characters is off... There's no reason I shouldnt be able to do here, what I used to do on live, back in 1999 when the game first came out and I first played a warrior if the server is trying to be as accurate as possible.

[Desert]

I'll leave that to someone with the time and energy to do it correctly, with a parser, and EQWatcher or something.. Im not really interested in the actual miss % that im currently experiencing, I just know its high enough to prevent me from doing what I used to do on live, and I'd like to see someone with the skills and ability to do something about it check it out. If you dont like the thread, why do you keep coming back?

If you don't have the time or desire to prove you're correct, why the fuck do you care?

Don't you think the Devs have enough on their plate? Step up and do it yourself, or Shut up.

[Morndenkainen]

If you don't have the time or desire to prove you're correct, why the fuck do you care?

Don't you think the Devs have enough on their plate? Step up and do it yourself, or Shut up.

I care because it currently affects me. Yes, I realise what the Dev's have on their plate. Incase you havent noticed, this is ONE of 855 entries in the bugs forum right at the moment. If I COULD step up and do it myself, I would, however, I know that the only thing I have to offer is my opinion, since I cant code or program for shit, and there dont seem to be any combat logs lying around from 1999... However, if YOU could get me a few pages of the original combat logs for various levels and skills, I could probably reverse engineer the original hit/miss formula, and track down the original random variable.

Do you really think the dev's are stupid enough to let me in to work on the source or the server code with no clue what im doing? I dont. Hence, I brought the topic up for discussion. Why? Because they know what they are doing, and I dont expect that they are busy playing a level 12-13 warrior just to check the hit/miss rate for fun.

[Tallenn]

But you're not providing any evidence that it's any different than it was back then. I remember it as being absolutely horrible for a low level melee to kill anything- hence, why I never leveled any of them very far.

You are claiming to remember it differently. However, you aren't providing any proof. It's 11 years- everyone's memories are going to be somewhat different. In my memory (and it seems in the memory of several other posters), low level melee is pretty much the same as it was in classic. In your memory (and admittedly, in the memory of others, as well), it's not.

How do you propose to solve this discrepancy? Do you perchance, have any screenshots from 1999 showing a level 12 warrior hitting more than missing? Anything? Nobody's doubting your word that your 12 war can't hit shit. What they are doubting is the claim that it's not classic.

I specifically remember making the choice NOT to play a melee because of this very issue in live classic. Kudos to those who could stick with it, but I'm not one of them.

[President]

I care because it currently affects me. Yes, I realise what the Dev's have on their plate. Incase you havent noticed, this is ONE of 855 entries in the bugs forum right at the moment. If I COULD step up and do it myself, I would, however, I know that the only thing I have to offer is my opinion, since I cant code or program for shit, and there dont seem to be any combat logs lying around from 1999... However, if YOU could get me a few pages of the original combat logs for various levels and skills, I could probably reverse engineer the original hit/miss formula, and track down the original random variable.

Do you really think the dev's are stupid enough to let me in to work on the source or the server code with no clue what im doing? I dont. Hence, I brought the topic up for discussion. Why? Because they know what they are doing, and I dont expect that they are busy playing a level 12-13 warrior just to check the hit/miss rate for fun.


He wasn't telling you to do the dev's work... he was telling you to find proof for the dev's to WORK OFF OF.

Jesus man...

[Desert]

I care because it currently affects me. Yes, I realise what the Dev's have on their plate. Incase you havent noticed, this is ONE of 855 entries in the bugs forum right at the moment. If I COULD step up and do it myself, I would, however, I know that the only thing I have to offer is my opinion, since I cant code or program for shit, and there dont seem to be any combat logs lying around from 1999... However, if YOU could get me a few pages of the original combat logs for various levels and skills, I could probably reverse engineer the original hit/miss formula, and track down the original random variable.

Do you really think the dev's are stupid enough to let me in to work on the source or the server code with no clue what im doing? I dont. Hence, I brought the topic up for discussion. Why? Because they know what they are doing, and I dont expect that they are busy playing a level 12-13 warrior just to check the hit/miss rate for fun.

Ahahaha No, they won't let you even have read access to their code.

http://www.eqwatcher.com/
run it in the background when you play, type /log On to turn your Logs on, and Play.

Save the file it spits out. Save them for a few days. I think they have better things to do, because know what man? they're gonna have to do this same exact Parsing to prove anything.

I'm done replying to this because you're either blinded by your rage at this Tiny problem, or you're a fuckin moron. Back to my game!

[Morndenkainen]

Ahahaha No, they won't let you even have read access to their code.

http://www.eqwatcher.com/
run it in the background when you play, type /log On to turn your Logs on, and Play.

Save the file it spits out. Save them for a few days. I think they have better things to do, because know what man? they're gonna have to do this same exact Parsing to prove anything.

I'm done replying to this because you're either blinded by your rage at this Tiny problem, or you're a fuckin moron. Back to my game!

Right... The "tiny" problem that somehow prevents me from doing exactly what I used to do back in 1999. Well fine, I guess I'll try and use your parser just to make you happy, then post the text file on here in a few days, also like you suggest, however, what you fail to realise is that the log will only give the data for the current situation, it wont magically spit out what used to happen back in 1999... Hence, the original problem will remain..

Gotta love the massive amount of nerdrage you guys exhibit when someone says there's a fault that you cant see.

[Desert]

No, but they can take your numbers and if they seem off, they can adjust. Or not.

[Morndenkainen]

No, but they can take your numbers and if they seem off, they can adjust. Or not.

all you can see is the immediate problem, you're completely incapable of putting an ounce of your own thought in to help the situation out. i cant stand people like you :o

You either need to learn to read or go get some glasses...

[Desert]

k, have fun with that miss rate

[President]

Gotta love the massive amount of nerdrage you guys exhibit when someone says there's a fault that you cant see.


Considering what you have been posting this has to be one of the dumbest fucking things I have ever seen posted on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

[Morndenkainen]

Considering what you have been posting this has to be one of the dumbest fucking things I have ever seen posted on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

I know man, its people like you that post the dumbest shit... You come into a thread on a forum that you dont agree with and start posting a bunch of crap rather than coming up with a creative or constructive way to even try and find out if there actually is an issue, or helping to figgure out how to find out what things were actually like back in 99..

The dev's see shit like that and decide.. Yeah, im gonna just pass on this thread, its going to degenerate into mindless bullshit, and thanks to people like you, it theyre right! For all the shit you guys talk, not one of you has even bothered to come up with a constructive way to test this out, or track down some actual data, and since you thread trolls are the ones that seem to delight in doing that kind of thing, it figgures, the one thing you'd be good at, you wont even attempt.

[President]

I know man, its people like you that post the dumbest shit... You come into a thread on a forum that you dont agree with and start posting a bunch of crap rather than coming up with a creative or constructive way to even try and find out if there actually is an issue, or helping to figgure out how to find out what things were actually like back in 99..

The dev's see shit like that and decide.. Yeah, im gonna just pass on this thread, its going to degenerate into mindless bullshit, and thanks to people like you, it theyre right! For all the shit you guys talk, not one of you has even bothered to come up with a constructive way to test this out, or track down some actual data, and since you thread trolls are the ones that seem to delight in doing that kind of thing, it figgures, the one thing you'd be good at, you wont even attempt.

Lol, wow, man... wow...

Continue embarrassing yourself please its really giving me a lot of enjoyment.

[Desert]

people like this guy, ladies and gents, is why i have zero faith in humanity.

[Morndenkainen]

Im glad you guys enjoy this, somehow its become the most replied to post in the bugs section, and is on its way towards being the most viewed... Its a pity, that a big part of reason it got there is on the backs of people like you guys who would rather start shit, than come up with a solution.

You should be so proud of yourselves...

[Morndenkainen]

On another note for the first time viewers coming to the last page and seeing this, the complaint is as follows... A level 13 warrior shouldnt miss nearly as much as they do against a light blue, or green mob. Alot of the response has been that melee weapons hit rate is based on skill alone, but not one person has, or seems to be able to answer why the miss rate seems as high now, or higher, than it did at level 1... My weapon skill at level 13, is 70, which is far closer to 100, than to 0, which it was at level 1. Given the argument that hit rate is skill based, why hasnt the miss rate dropped noticably since level 1? Is 70 points of skill really so little even against mobs that should be fairly easy to kill?

[Cogwell]

Morn, as a neutral observer I think you're reacting very defensively. You stated something, people disagreed with your assessment - they're not saying you're a bad person, they just disagree with you.

Maybe you should try playing a caster instead this go-round and see if you enjoy the game more.

[Morndenkainen]

Morn, as a neutral observer I think you're reacting very defensively. You stated something, people disagreed with your assessment - they're not saying you're a bad person, they just disagree with you.

Maybe you should try playing a caster instead this go-round and see if you enjoy the game more.

Is it not a natural reaction to respond defensively when your basically told your ideas are shit, quit crying, your doing it wrong, you dont know what your doing, ect. The first couple of posts were fine, then a couple people decided to post sayin I was wrong about stuff I know full well I was able to do in EQ back in 1999. Suppose I could just ignore the trolls though.. Rather wish there was a way to just delete their posts and clean the thread up.

Side note, I have a caster, and the pet is rather lame. Its just not as fun ordering a little minion around and watching it beat the crap out of everything while you stand around and organise the lint in your pockets.

[President]

Is it not a natural reaction to respond defensively when your basically told your ideas are shit, quit crying, your doing it wrong, you dont know what your doing, ect.


Go read through your posts. It is QUITE clear that you were the one who started tossing around insults and acting like a baby well before anyone retorted back to you.

[Morndenkainen]

Go read through your posts. It is QUITE clear that you were the one who started tossing around insults and acting like a baby well before anyone retorted back to you.

Yeah... Go check your quotes again buddy... First post you left on here was about user error.... While we're talking about YOUR posts, I REALLY like this one... :D Seriously, I wish to god it had been your FIRST post in this thread.. Woulda saved ALOT of BS.

So I noticed something yesterday when playing but I don't know if it was coincidence or what.

I'm level 19, fighting in Mistmoore, and my dual wield/double attacks are few and far between. Although my DPS isn't as bad as it was before the fix, it wasn't happening often.

I ding 20, and my skills start to go over 100. I'm getting to 102/103/104 and my double attack/dual wield start going crazy. I'm literally smacking the mob 4 times every 30ish seconds when I had rarely seen it once a fight before hand.

I dunno if 100 skill is some "hump" or what, but I definitely noticed a difference.

Good god, that makes so much sense and actually applies to what I am talking about in this thread... The fact that there is a "Hump" or trigger point where the attacks hit more and skill triggers more, all of a sudden, and for no apparent reason other than gaining past a certian number in the skill points. Seriously, dont you see the flaw in everything you've been arguing about? There should be no "Trigger zone", or "hump" the progression should be smooth and even, and 5 skill points shouldnt be the difference between a 35-40% miss rate, and a 10% miss rate. Or in your case, dual weild and double attacks occouring RARELY to occuring REGULARLY....

Define Irony? Howabout the person who's been so vehemently denying my issue and trolling my posts being the one to have made a post that actually validates and proves my point?

Seriously president, I wish I'd found that post earlier, as it REALLY does give some validity to the issue here.. Now, if we can find a level 19 mellee char, who's about to hit level 20, and watch him ding and his skills go up, I'd say we've got a pretty good starting point for tracking down and flattening out that "hump" like it should be, cause it sure as hell wasnt as noticable in 1999 when I played..

Yeah, you've irritated me, but still... /hugz President.

[President]

Yeah... Go check your quotes again buddy... First post you left on here was about user error.... While we're talking about YOUR posts, I REALLY like this one... :D



Good god, that makes so much sense and actually applies to what I am talking about in this thread... The fact that there is a "Hump" or trigger point where the attacks hit more and skill triggers more, all of a sudden, and for no apparent reason other than gaining past a certian number in the skill points. Seriously, dont you see the flaw in everything you've been arguing about? There should be no "Trigger zone", or "hump" the progression should be smooth and even, and 5 skill points shouldnt be the difference between a 35-40% miss rate, and a 10% miss rate. Or in your case, dual weild and double attacks occouring RARELY to occuring REGULARLY....

Define Irony? Howabout the person who's been so vehemently denying my issue and trolling my posts being the one to have made a post that actually validates and proves my point?

Seriously president, I wish I'd found that post earlier, as it REALLY does give some validity to the issue here.. Now, if we can find a level 19 mellee char, who's about to hit level 20, and watch him ding and his skills go up, I'd say we've got a pretty good starting point for tracking down and flattening out that "hump" like it should be, cause it sure as hell wasnt as noticable in 1999 when I played..

Yeah, you've irritated me, but still... /hugz President.


EDIT* Nvm, guess it was after the fix. Either way, multiple posts here have reference there being a *hump* in classic at level 20 as well. So.. your still wrong.

[Desert]

Yeah... Go check your quotes again buddy... First post you left on here was about user error.... While we're talking about YOUR posts, I REALLY like this one... :D Seriously, I wish to god it had been your FIRST post in this thread.. Woulda saved ALOT of BS.



Good god, that makes so much sense and actually applies to what I am talking about in this thread... The fact that there is a "Hump" or trigger point where the attacks hit more and skill triggers more, all of a sudden, and for no apparent reason other than gaining past a certian number in the skill points. Seriously, dont you see the flaw in everything you've been arguing about? There should be no "Trigger zone", or "hump" the progression should be smooth and even, and 5 skill points shouldnt be the difference between a 35-40% miss rate, and a 10% miss rate. Or in your case, dual weild and double attacks occouring RARELY to occuring REGULARLY....

Define Irony? Howabout the person who's been so vehemently denying my issue and trolling my posts being the one to have made a post that actually validates and proves my point?

Seriously president, I wish I'd found that post earlier, as it REALLY does give some validity to the issue here.. Now, if we can find a level 19 mellee char, who's about to hit level 20, and watch him ding and his skills go up, I'd say we've got a pretty good starting point for tracking down and flattening out that "hump" like it should be, cause it sure as hell wasnt as noticable in 1999 when I played..

Yeah, you've irritated me, but still... /hugz President.

This was Always like this. Always. This was why I specifically noted 100 skill a few posts back, last page. For example 100 skill in Mend is the point at which it can't fail, it can only critically fail (i Think, it might be the other way around?). 100 skill in Most skills you will notice a Huge difference in how they perform.

In WoW, there was a huge difference in 5 skill points. THIS is why I think you've spent too much time on WoW and it's skewing your memory of your time in EQ.

[President]

Define Irony? Howabout the person who's been so vehemently denying my issue and trolling my posts being the one to have made a post that actually validates and proves my point?

Hey fucktard. I'm about done being nice to you. All you have bitched about this entire fucking post is how "I have a 30% miss rate QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ." Nothing in the post I made that you quoted did I say ANYTHING about miss rate or CORROBORATE anything you have said thus far. Seriously dude, GET A FUCKING BRAIN.

[Desert]

The funny thing is, this "point" he's proving is something that has been in the game since at least...oh...2000 or so when I started.

That GU Comic posted earlier from back in the day speaks volumes, also.

[President]

The funny thing is, this "point" he's proving is something that has been in the game since at least...oh...2000 or so when I started.

That GU Comic posted earlier from back in the day speaks volumes, also.

You shouldn't have said that. He's going to come back and go "oh yea well I started in 1999 I know more than you I was there I solod to level 23 as a warrior because I'm fucking braindead."

[Desert]

He can say it all he wants imo, the silence of the devs is enough to say he's a fucking idiot

[Morndenkainen]

Once again President, your right, I played since EQ was released up until the first expansion then quit. In 1999, I dont remember there being some magical "Hump" that you had to cross in order to suddenly do better at everything, It didnt work that way with any of the crafting skills like tailoring, brewing, fletching, blacksmithing, jewlcrafting, or accesory skills like sense heading and bind wounds. It didnt work that way with the caster skillset with regards to evocation, alteration, conjuration, abjuration, channeling, or meditate, Im fairly sure it didnt work that way witht he language skills, and I sure as hell dont remember it working that way in combat either. EQ was all about slow, steady progression.

A note on being braindead since you decided to be nasty again... If I managed to solo to 23 as a warrior and you didnt, that speaks volumes about your intelligence and competence as a gamer.. No wonder why you cant understand the concept behind this thread, but continue posting away, might as well make it the biggest one on the forum. And yeah, it does actually prove a point, on your own words, it states that there's a "hump" in the skills, at which point they suddenly become alot more effective. If the same holds true for the melee miss rate, then guess what, thats the problem with the excessive miss rates early on, there isnt enough trickle down effect to smooth out that hump and make the progression gradual and consistent, like it should be.

Face it, you didnt see this message one day, thus crossing the mystical hump and turning into the person you are today. It took time, dedication, and gradual progress.
President has ganed skill in ignorance (101)

All the silence of the devs says is that their either busy, or have tossed the thread out of serious consideration thanks to the lack of brainpower in a couple of idiots who started trolling here instead of giving the thread serious consideration. Either way, keep on posting, im going to laugh when this supposed non-issue becomes the biggest and most viewed thread on here.

[President]

Once again President, your right, I played since EQ was released up until the first expansion then quit. In 1999, I dont remember there being some magical "Hump" that you had to cross in order to suddenly do better at everything, It didnt work that way with any of the crafting skills like tailoring, brewing, fletching, blacksmithing, jewlcrafting, or accesory skills like sense heading and bind wounds. It didnt work that way with the caster skillset with regards to evocation, alteration, conjuration, abjuration, channeling, or meditate, Im fairly sure it didnt work that way witht he language skills, and I sure as hell dont remember it working that way in combat either. EQ was all about slow, steady progression.

You must have been a developer then right? Or wait, nope. You weren't. Your just some noob crying about missing 35% of the time.

A note on being braindead since you decided to be nasty again... If I managed to solo to 23 as a warrior and you didnt, that speaks volumes about your intelligence and competence as a gamer.. No wonder why you cant understand the concept behind this thread, but continue posting away, might as well make it the biggest one on the forum. And yeah, it does actually prove a point, on your own words, it states that there's a "hump" in the skills, at which point they suddenly become alot more effective. If the same holds true for the melee miss rate, then guess what, thats the problem with the excessive miss rates early on, there isnt enough trickle down effect to smooth out that hump and make the progression gradual and consistent, like it should be.

Face it, you didnt see this message one day, thus crossing the mystical hump and turning into the person you are today. It took time, dedication, and gradual progress.
President has ganed skill in ignorance (101)

All of this is laughable at VERY best. Anyone who reads this thread know you were the first person to start throwing around insults and being a crybaby jackass. The fact you solo'd to 23 proves you are fucking retarded and nothing more because nobody with a brain would have done that in classic. It has nothing to do with skill. The fact you even think that pressing auto attack and hitting kick every few seconds is "skill" shows just how retarded you are.

All the silence of the devs says is that their either busy, or have tossed the thread out of serious consideration thanks to the lack of brainpower in a couple of idiots who started trolling here instead of giving the thread serious consideration. Either way, keep on posting, im going to laugh when this supposed non-issue becomes the biggest and most viewed thread on here.

Us *idiots* were providing our thoughts on the situation until you started calling everyone "stupid" for not "understanding your point of view." Even in the face of multiple people telling you are wrong and this is very similar to live, you continue to do the same thing over and over. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

Keep your posts coming, I'm staying entertained during my shift.

[President]

Bahaha, check the 5 month old thread you just bumped. DEV RESPONSE! Can you quit QQing now?

[Morndenkainen]

Bahaha, check the 5 month old thread you just bumped. DEV RESPONSE! Can you quit QQing now?

Proof to the theory that they avoid threads with excessive levels of bullshit.. Thanks for helping to ruin this one...

[President]

Proof to the theory that they avoid threads with excessive levels of bullshit.. Thanks for helping to ruin this one...

LOL, not at all. He answered someone asking a level headed question, not the retarded shit you have been posting.

[Morndenkainen]

I really don't remember easily killing blues as a warrior back on live. But really, stop QQing. Melee was REALLY fucked when the server opened and a lot of us played warriors just fine. The Dev's devoted a lot of time getting melee as close to right as they could, and its far and above better than when the server opened.


The joke doesn't appear to be fighting with a warrior, the joke appears to be trying to solo with a warrior at level 12. User error.

That was your first damn post in the thread.. You basically told me to STFU and quit whining because im obviously doing it wrong and im imagining everything... Yet I insulted your intelligence first? Dude, you insult your own intelligence by breathing...

[President]

That was your first damn post in the thread.. You basically told me to STFU and quit whining because im obviously doing it wrong and im imagining everything... Yet I insulted your intelligence first? Dude, you insult your own intelligence by breathing...

LOL yep guess it was. Point still stands. I also notice you edited out the QQ fest that was your initial post. Not to mention, my first post was in response to one one of your other posts in this thread that was another 'imma quit' qq fest.

[Yoite]

meep

[Morndenkainen]

holy JESUS dont turn the bug forum into a flame fest you have multiple threads and you're raising hell in each one

Wasnt my intention. I asked a legit question in the other one, and yet these guys followed me there and flamed because they've apparently got nothing better to do. Quite honestly, I wish there was a way to just block em from the thread and call it a day.

[President]

Wasnt my intention. I asked a legit question in the other one, and yet these guys followed me there and flamed because they've apparently got nothing better to do. Quite honestly, I wish there was a way to just block em from the thread and call it a day.

No one flamed you in the other thread aside from me finding it interesting that you constantly insult my intelligence but then use one of my posts and call it fact.

[Morndenkainen]

No one flamed you in the other thread aside from me finding it interesting that you constantly insult my intelligence but then use one of my posts and call it fact.

If you cant figgure out why I'd do such a thing, then I'll explain it, if you still dont get it, dont bother to respond..

I used your "facts" from your level 19-20 days because they came out of YOUR personal experience, and YOU are the one that stated that it happened. EQ was not meant to have huge "humps" in skill progression, it was a slow steady progression game. I used your "facts" because in order to dispute them, you would have to say you were wrong, which you did not do. Also, I never called them "facts", you did. What I said was that your post helped to validate and prove my point. That there IS an issue with melee skills.

As far as who insulted who first? Read the damn posts. Its pretty obvious you started it. Hell, you even went out of your way to kill a sand giant and post pics in the thread to show that you DIDNT miss once which realistically, if the system was correct, you should have, ATLEAST once. At every turn, you continue to offer points which reinforce the thought that there still IS an issue with melee, and then turn around and deny its an issue.. You then insult me and tell me im wrong and expect me not to respond after you went out of your way to help prove me right? How does that NOT say anything about your intelligence?

You know what President? Fuck it, you win, enjoy ownership of the thread. I'll just grind off to 21 where the misses mysteriously vanish or give a druid some plat for some powerleveling, and let everyone else deal with the massive miss rate. You arent worth arguing with.

[Desert]

If you cant figgure out why I'd do such a thing, then I'll explain it, if you still dont get it, dont bother to respond..

I used your "facts" from your level 19-20 days because they came out of YOUR personal experience, and YOU are the one that stated that it happened. EQ was not meant to have huge "humps" in skill progression, it was a slow steady progression game. I used your "facts" because in order to dispute them, you would have to say you were wrong, which you did not do. Also, I never called them "facts", you did. What I said was that your post helped to validate and prove my point. That there IS an issue with melee skills.

As far as who insulted who first? Read the damn posts. Its pretty obvious you started it. Hell, you even went out of your way to kill a sand giant and post pics in the thread to show that you DIDNT miss once which realistically, if the system was correct, you should have, ATLEAST once. At every turn, you continue to offer points which reinforce the thought that there still IS an issue with melee, and then turn around and deny its an issue.. You then insult me and tell me im wrong and expect me not to respond after you went out of your way to help prove me right? How does that NOT say anything about your intelligence?

You know what President? Fuck it, you win, enjoy ownership of the thread. I'll just grind off to 21 where the misses mysteriously vanish or give a druid some plat for some powerleveling, and let everyone else deal with the massive miss rate. You arent worth arguing with.

Prolly the best idea you're going to have all year bro, do it imo.

[Ruinous]

Honestly, do ya'll have nothing better to do than bitch about us "complaining" about problems in the game? News flash: emulated servers thrive upon and become better because of user feedback.

We gave legitimate concerns. You gave a "stop QQing" speech. Stop wasting thread space, stop feeding your post count, and gtfo of this bug posting. This isn't a debate forum and you haven't made any legitimate counter-points to the original posting regardless.

You cry for proof, the OP gave screenshots. That wasn't good enough because you're not satisfied unless you're crying to tell us stop crying. Go fucking figure. Irony at its finest.

I enjoy this server, but holy christ. One of the reasons EQ was so cool back in the day was a mature player base. Grow a pair and stop squabbling over this. This is a matter for the devs to review and decide upon, not a self-righteous forum troll that gets his jollies off by trying to shoot down the opinions of others. Between how sickening global OOC is and how you people take shots at eachother on this thread, I'd think we were all playing with a bunch of WoW kiddies.

[girth]

News flash: emulated servers thrive upon and become better because of USEFUL user feedback.



fixed.

Melee has come a LOOOOOOOOOOONG way on Project 1999, serious work/effort was put into it, and unless you(OP) have some kind of statistical evidence, you may as well just pay that druid for the PL, because you're trying to solo on the worst soloing class in the game. And you're whining on here that you cannot solo on the worst soloing class in the game and because of that fact, you believe melee is borked? You didn't expect to catch shit for that? Seriously?

[Desert]

fixed.

Melee has come a LOOOOOOOOOOONG way on Project 1999, serious work/effort was put into it, and unless you(OP) have some kind of statistical evidence, you may as well just pay that druid for the PL, because you're trying to solo on the worst soloing class in the game. And you're whining on here that you cannot solo on the worst soloing class in the game and because of that fact, you believe melee is borked? You didn't expect to catch shit for that? Seriously?

^ This

[girth]

Just for shits and giggles I went outside Guk and let one of the entrance guards beat on me for 10 minutes, I never once moved after walking up to him and hitting Taunt once. I had no buffs on.

level 37 ogre sk vs green con guk entrance guard
1430 hp
700 ac
185 defense
125 dodge
175 parry
175 riposte

eqlog_Bootleg_project1999.txt (http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?file_id=04241951479744211766&t=0424195147974421176644477)

I found it interesting that I only got 0 dodges, 0 ripostes and 1 parry. Is it because the npc miss check comes before those so they barely even have a chance to happen?

[President]

Just for shits and giggles I went outside Guk and let one of the entrance guards beat on me for 10 minutes, I never once moved after walking up to him and hitting Taunt once. I had no buffs on.

level 37 ogre sk vs green con guk entrance guard
1430 hp
700 ac
185 defense
125 dodge
175 parry
175 riposte

eqlog_Bootleg_project1999.txt (http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?file_id=04241951479744211766&t=0424195147974421176644477)

I found it interesting that I only got 0 dodges, 0 ripostes and 1 parry. Is it because the npc miss check comes before those so they barely even have a chance to happen?

Id say that assumption makes sense girth.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Morn, I spent like 30 minutes searching on Google for even one example of a log parse from even just prior to 2004, and I came up empty-handed. So unless someone can do better, the main problem is we have nothing to compare a current log to. Which may make this issue unsolvable even if there is a problem, because no one will be able to prove there's a difference with quantitative data. The only thing I can think of is to parse current-state data, at each player level, against dozens of differently-leveled mobs, and graph the results to determine a somewhat linear relationship and to see if the correlations break down anywhere. And since someone would have to level up a warrior from level 1 and spend most of their time doing pretty much that, I don't think the melee combat mechanics are broken enough to warrant anyone putting that much work into what is essentially a "half solution", nor is it broken enough to have the devs risk breaking the system currently in place by trying to fix it more.

Other than that, this thread is just going to be you and a few others butting heads against a bunch of people who leveled past the point you're at, twinked or not, powerleveled or not. There's a reason people twink their low level alts, or get powerleveled, or do the gnoll fang turn-ins to skip a bunch of low levels.... is because levels 1-20 kinda suck. And Live has always been like that. So I would just put effort into getting past these levels as soon as possible. I have a level 11 cleric that I can group with ya if you want tonight and all day/night tomorrow if you want, lemme know. :)

[Yoite]

ya if they miss you there is no reason for you to dodge, parry, or riposte their missed attack.

[pickled_heretic]

A lot of you guys keep saying "QQ JOIN A GROUP N00BIE," but nobody's going to want to group with a warrior who can't hold aggro because he can't hit anything and can't do anything to increase his chance to hit. I'm spoiled because I am a SK and I can hold aggro just with disease cloud and my spells regardless of my DPS, but warriors are fucked.

[PearlJammzz]

Ya I hate having warriors as tanks as a DPS. It's tough to fill like you're giving it your all when you wait till 80 % to nuke, and you already have aggro.

SK's you can quite literally wait till they get a disease cloud, and a taunt or 2 off, and nuke at will. Maybe the SK's I have grouped with are just better than the warriors? I don't know, but I do know that warriors have a hell of a time keeping aggro. We'll see if this changes in Kunark :).

[Kainzo]

Ya I hate having warriors as tanks as a DPS. It's tough to fill like you're giving it your all when you wait till 80 % to nuke, and you already have aggro.

SK's you can quite literally wait till they get a disease cloud, and a taunt or 2 off, and nuke at will. Maybe the SK's I have grouped with are just better than the warriors? I don't know, but I do know that warriors have a hell of a time keeping aggro. We'll see if this changes in Kunark :).

taunt doesnt "build" aggro. It places the user on top of the aggro list, if they are already at the top, taunt is worthless.

[guineapig]

taunt doesnt "build" aggro. It places the user on top of the aggro list, if they are already at the top, taunt is worthless.

^^^ This

Who still doesn't understand how taunt works?

[PearlJammzz]

Then it's the damage he deals or something. My point is the SK grabs it once, and can hold it forever easily. Warriors have no chance. You have to play like a half-afk gimp lots of the time if you have a warrior tank.

Best way to control aggro is through root if you can. The warrior then only needs to be the closest to the mob, and he will hold aggro forever. This is the only way I have seen warriors be able to hold good aggro.

[YendorLootmonkey]

A lot of you guys keep saying "QQ JOIN A GROUP N00BIE," but nobody's going to want to group with a warrior who can't hold aggro because he can't hit anything and can't do anything to increase his chance to hit. I'm spoiled because I am a SK and I can hold aggro just with disease cloud and my spells regardless of my DPS, but warriors are fucked.

Well, I was trying to steer him towards 1H weapons before. IMO, for grouping, he needs a pair of tentacle whips or gnoll-hide lariats or something cheap with a proc that pisses mobs off.

[guineapig]

Best way to control aggro is through root if you can. The warrior then only needs to be the closest to the mob, and he will hold aggro forever. This is the only way I have seen warriors be able to hold good aggro.


This is actually a really bad habbit to get into. Root will break multiple times during a fight and it generates a whole mess of aggro. The moment the root breaks that mob will start attacking the person who rooted it and the warrior needs to re-establish control.

The more you root, the higher you get on the aggro list. The warrior doesn't actually have aggro in this case, the mob is simply defaulting to hitting whatever it can until it can finally move again. If you try using root like this on a raid you will either die often or piss off the backup healers.

[Kainzo]

You can either use BLIND or ROOT. Blind will act as a root and the mob will attack the CLOSEST thing. A lot of guilds use this technique on this server to have their mages lay out as much damage as possible.

(this wasn't kunkark/veilous).

[YendorLootmonkey]

This is actually a really bad habbit to get into. Root will break multiple times during a fight and it generates a whole mess of aggro. The moment the root breaks that mob will start attacking the ranger and the warrior needs to re-establish control.

Fixed it for ya :)

[guineapig]

You can either use BLIND or ROOT. Blind will act as a root and the mob will attack the CLOSEST thing. A lot of guilds use this technique on this server to have their mages lay out as much damage as possible.

(this wasn't kunkark/veilous).

I would expect every paladin on the server to use blind. It's part of their aggro arsenal along with stun! I was under the impression that this is a well known tactic (and the only good use for blind).

Fixed it for ya :)

Oh, nevermind then, :p. Break out the root procs and dex buffs!!!

[km2783]

I'll leave that to someone with the time and energy to do it correctly, with a parser, and EQWatcher or something.. Im not really interested in the actual miss % that im currently experiencing, I just know its high enough to prevent me from doing what I used to do on live, and I'd like to see someone with the skills and ability to do something about it check it out. If you dont like the thread, why do you keep coming back?

Just. Wow. Newsflash: if you don't want to help with the solution to a problem you're seeing, then you have absolutely no right to be bitching about it. If you can't be bothered to do something, why the hell should anyone else (yes I saw where you claimed you would do it)? Sure, your parse isn't as helpful w/ out a parse from back in the day to compare it to, but groups of people arguing over it solves nothing. Provide more information than a couple fights worth of screen shots and a memory, or be quiet. "Just knowing" isn't good enough.

The only melee classes I ever soloed to near 20 was a twinked Monk, Bard, and Warrior. Note that I said twinked. That warrior got his ass handed to him on a regular basis by blues before I bought him a set of fine plate and wakazashis. After awhile he was group-only or low low low blues. After lvl 20 any melee class I played became tons better and easier to play. The first time my Monk quad-attacked it brought a tear to my eye :D

Since no one has really responded to any of the other questions/thoughts I've posed, with little other evidence I'm left to think you are just flat out wrong that melee is broken.

If you're going to reply to me and this post, either come correct or expect no response and a PM to an admin. I'm not about to put up with your typical responses like President has.

[Ruinous]

Taken from here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=36563

Weapon skill and your level relative to the mob are the most important factors in whether you hit or miss. ATK rating determines how much you hit for up to your max hit, not how often you hit.

I bolded the important part for you all arguing against this to easily see. I'm working on digging up more valid information in our favor, so stay tuned.

The argument that we're missing because we are low level is BASELESS because the mobs we are fighting are our level or lower. Level difference between the character and the NPC seems to not be taken into consideration at all or very little on this server and therein seems to lie the problem.

Hit / miss rate is not a simple determination of your weapon skill as you guys seem to be claiming. Max weapon / offense for your level should adequately match the defensive abilities of mobs our level or lower, no matter what level the toon is.

[nilbog]

The true irony of this 17 page thread, is the dev that would be able to help you is Haynar, on the first page.

This doesn't fall into content, so I don't have fixes for you. For the source developers reading this though.. they will have a hard time finding what they need to fix.

[Ruinous]

I will be happy to re-post all relevant information to a new thread as I find more links and actually have the time to parse live vs. p99.

[girth]

Weapon skill and

You really think you should have the same hit/miss rate as a 20-30+ just because both of you may fight a mob 5 levels lower than you?

I don't think you give weapon skill enough credit then. You should miss a ton because you suck at your weapon skill regardless of what the mob cons to you, because it takes BOTH.
I think its incoming damage from npcs that is the problem, not melee's offensive abilities which may or may not be a little bit off. I believe something is fishy with AC. No proof though. I haven't seen a raid yet, but it seems tanks take more damage here, even twinked ones. <<total opinion

[Ruinous]

You really think you should have the same hit/miss rate as a 20-30+ just because both of you may fight a mob 5 levels lower than you?


I absolutely think so. Why should a level 5 fighting a level 1 not have close to the same hit/miss chance as a level 20 fighting a level 15? It's all relative to your level and weapon skill vs. the defense of the mob, which more often than not, is determined by LEVEL. I didn't say that I think a level 5 fighting a level 1 should hit as hard and for their max as often as a level 20 fighting a level 15. Clearly their stats and ATK primarily would dictate a higher percentage to land full hits. But in regards to hit/miss, YES, that's how it should be working.

What was the point of having a "CONSIDERATION" system if it means nothing in regards to the difficulty of the encounter if your skills are too gimp at low levels to land hits?

[Yoite]

what.. no. a lvl 5 vs 1 should not land hits as often as a 20 vs a 15 or a 50 vs a 45. The higher lvl you get the better you get.

At lvl 5 you suck at swinging your weapon, so you miss more. At lvl 20 your better so you dont miss as much, and by the time you're 50 you're pretty much done with sucking and now you dont miss very much.

Why is this so hard to understand. You are missing a lot at low lvl b/c you are LOW LVL.

[km2783]

That thread is from 2006 and there is a possibility things have changed.

Also, Cuclain is just another Joe Forum posting that bit about melee. Not exactly the best/most official source of info. It's just as baseless and unproven as anything else in this thread.

What's HILARIOUS is a few posts down someone is even questioning him. Plus, Cuclain also said that ATK determines how much you hit for up to max damage, not how often you hit, and that level wasn't a factor here, so that doesn't really explain all the low damage hits as "broken". It just says that being low means you have a lower ATK rating, thus lower than max damage hits more often.

[Desert]

I absolutely think so. Why should a level 5 fighting a level 1 not have close to the same hit/miss chance as a level 20 fighting a level 15? It's all relative to your level and weapon skill vs. the defense of the mob, which more often than not, is determined by LEVEL. I didn't say that I think a level 5 fighting a level 1 should hit as hard and for their max as often as a level 20 fighting a level 15. Clearly their stats and ATK primarily would dictate a higher percentage to land full hits. But in regards to hit/miss, YES, that's how it should be working.

What was the point of having a "CONSIDERATION" system if it means nothing in regards to the difficulty of the encounter if your skills are too gimp at low levels to land hits?

For certain classes solo'ing, such as Warrior in the OP's case, Everything is an Undercon.

The consider system is a guideline, it's level based and nothing more. Is X mob Lower or Higher level than me, and by How much? That's all. It doesn't take into account what class you are or the ease at which Your class can solo a DB.

[Ruinous]

Someone questioned him, and again someone backed him up to confirm that this is how it works. Even in the face of answers you're too set about your ways to consider that you are incorrect. I'm perfectly willing to accept facts that disprove what we're claiming here, yet these replies are fruitless and full of insults. The only attempt to provide evidence otherwise was from President, and despite him being jackassy with how he went about confronting us on the matter, I give him credit for it. However the screenshots he gave prove exactly what we're fighting here... whether weapon skill/offense is the strict deciding factor of hit/miss chances - in which case MY stance is that it should not be.

I don't intend to argue the matter further with any regular players here. It takes very little intelligence to consider that while a low level 5 sucks with his weapon, it is adequate to fight a low level 1 who sucks even worse at avoiding being hit with it.

I shall continue to research the subject and provide more evidence for devs to consider. In the meantime, I encourage everyone else that seems hellbent on screaming that this system is "working as intended" as per live to provide their own proof.

[Desert]

Do you even understand why the level 5 fighting a level 1 has less chance to hit than a level 20 fighting a level 15? Or, shit, even a level 12 fighting a level 5. Because it's not only the level spread and character level that matters, but the weapon skill as well. come on man... really? You're arguing a level 5 with 25 skill vs a level 20 with 100 skill. That's hardly a fair comparison.

As your skill goes up, you have more of a chance to hit an even con. If your skill is low, you have LESS chance to hit an even con. Why is this such a fucked up concept for some of you people? This is how it's always been on live, and if you stop and think about it for a second, it makes sense! Consider that this game was inspired by d&d, why not make characters with low weapon skill, like... you know... Suck?

I stand by my prediction that the people bitching about this "issue" are Either A. Low level/Low skill, B. Played entirely too much wow, or C. Playing retardedly.

[Haynar]

The true irony of this 17 page thread, is the dev that would be able to help you is Haynar, on the first page.

This doesn't fall into content, so I don't have fixes for you. For the source developers reading this though.. they will have a hard time finding what they need to fix.
Isn't that ironic.

My point on page one, was that someone who is just starting on the server, starts screaming that everything is screwed up, does not necessarily know much. And does not know how to get issues addressed here.

I have looked closely at melee hit rates, with old parses. You want the truth? They are a bit off. From the data I had, melee are hitting about 2-3% too much. The real problem is the mitigation rates are off. And if this was a trivial fix, I would have had it all figured out in the 4 attempts I have made to code an all encompassing fix for mitigation.

I am going to try to push my patch out for how AC is calculated this weekend. Going to a softcap based formula, the same as classic was at the time. Using the same class modifiers and everything, based on best estimates. Warriors should get a nice boost. If the mitigation tables aren't off too far. Unfortuantely the way the mob stats are in the database, the mitigation shouldn't be the same for mobs, and PCs. So I have about 3 formulas I have been testing.

I have spent many many hours parsing data. And the fact that live, is not like classic, makes additional adjustments necessary to account for those differences.

Some of the bigger problems, even with classic data, there were parses at max level, versus certain mobs. No one did a shit load of parses at level 12, to see how they do against a level 5 mob. So you can scream all you want at the wind, these parses from 10 years ago, will not be crapped out of anywhere.

And ask around. Bitching more, about something, unless it is so horribly broke, that it makes the server unplayable (I have about 700 people who say otherwise, to the 10 who say it is), will get you put on the back burner.

You have a fix?

Code it up. Submit it.

You have parses?

Fit the data, plot mitigation tables. Adjust them to the mob stats in the normal PEQ database. Adjust them to the EMU equations for calculating melee stats and miss rates.

I finished my finals last week, in both of my classes. I am working on my masters in nuclear engineering. I work 40-50 hours a week as a nuclear physicist. I have a 6 month old baby here in the house, who is way more fun to listen to, than some lard ass living in his mother's basement, about how they cannot solo to 50 with their warrior in one week.

Melee are still in a work in progress.

Get over yourself. I don't work for you. I am a volunteer on this project, and help as much as I can. The company I work for bills me out at $165.00 per hour, and I have people lining up for me to solve problems for them. So if you want to have a bitch fest? Knock yourself out. I will not be listening.

If you want to start some parses, and doing some comparisons, then more help is welcome.

The last time, we put some changes to test, and asked for people to get on and help and test, there was little to no help.

I want to work on melee more this weekend. But if I get ticked off at it more, because equations break down, I will probably go off looking for a way to break bards again.

Haynar

[YendorLootmonkey]

I think what the OP is asking is if:

The comparative levels of the mob and the player are being accounted for in the equation. Only someone who has visibility to the equation would know if that were in fact true. And this is one of the most fundamental, game-changing equations in the code, so hopefully everyone understands Haynar's reluctance to go in and adjust it any more unless we have rock-solid data/analysis behind our suppositions.

Based on some Google research I have done due to this thread over the last day or so, what I actually think is "supposed" to happen is that because each mob has a base AC which is at least somewhat if not mostly dependent on level, this would be the part that is taken into account (on both the mitigation and the avoidance components of AC) which would address the OP's concerns about hit frequency (which is dependent on the mob's avoidance component) and hit damage (which is dependent on the mob's mitigation component).

This thread seems to indicate the EQEmu code, as-is, has a melee equation and an AC equation that are useless, which probably prompted the first big melee fix on this server that Haynar went through months ago.

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11082

For the OP and his group, here's a fairly detailed thread where some EQEmu devs attempt to reverse engineer the melee equation. I just don't know how much is changed on P1999 due to the first melee fix and where it stands now:

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6733

Having said all that, the major point here is that Haynar's right, back in the day, no one spent a whole lot of time parsing damage from a level 12 on level 5 mobs, so that data most likely does not exist, and would have to be extrapolated from what happens at higher levels, knowing there's damage caps until 10 and 20, and damage bonuses starting at 28. That's the crux of the problem with attempting to determine if there is indeed an issue based on quantifiable fact, or just an observation based on memories of 10 years ago on equations Sony/Verant never let anyone have their hands on.

[Zordana]

Just the village idiot who asks dumb questions.

i read it late but i lol'd :)

[Ruinous]

some lard ass living in his mother's basement

Why so serious?

Honestly, I don't think that anyone here was bitching at devs, much less you in specific Haynar. We were too busy flaming each other. So why get personal over it? I'm so very happy for your real life success but I don't see how that relates to the situation here.

You could have gave an explanation right at the beginning and saved probably 17 pages worth of posting rather than taken the stance that someone who was new to the server couldn't make personal observations and form their own opinions on something.

I'll keep my mouth shut and enjoy the free ride if the dev's themselves don't have the patience to deal with criticism and go further to lash out at the people that play here.

Thanks!
-Ruinous

[ryuut1]

get faster weapons.

also, filter out misses.

you'll feel much better!

[girth]

I'll keep my mouth shut and enjoy the free ride if the dev's themselves don't have the patience to deal with criticism and go further to lash out at the people that play here.

That is not exactly keeping your mouth shut. How can you even say anything after his post? He hit every single corner of this topic that could have been hit, he told you about its past, its present, and its possible future. Stop spewing your bullshit. Haynar is the fucking man and this server would not have over 500 people ever if not for his work up to this point.

He didn't even lash out you stupid fuck. If you want to see lashing out let me know, you piss me off.

[Zordana]

I am going to try to push my patch out for how AC is calculated this weekend. Going to a softcap based formula, the same as classic was at the time. Using the same class modifiers and everything, based on best estimates. Warriors should get a nice boost. If the mitigation tables aren't off too far. Unfortuantely the way the mob stats are in the database, the mitigation shouldn't be the same for mobs, and PCs. So I have about 3 formulas I have been testing.

omg haynar i love you!

[Ruinous]

He didn't even lash out you stupid fuck. If you want to see lashing out let me know, you piss me off.

Lolumad? Really, are you going to say hurtful things towards me? I could give a fuck if you like me or not, or if you feel like going off on some nerd rage-fueled rant towards me.

Entertain me though if you wish. You're welcome to /tell me in game as well. :cool:

[rioisk]

I think OP is really concerned about player level vs mob level.

Monster levels translate to higher player levels as player level increases. So while at player level 1, level 1 mobs may be the norm for killing, by player level 5, level 5 mobs will be harder by comparison. This follows all the way to 50. Do you ever see lvl 50 melees soloing level 50 mobs? Level 40 mobs? Not sure on the exact translation but a lvl 12 shouldn't down a level 5 mob super easily.

[girth]

ruin-
I'm a tank. I taunt mobs off the important people. In this case, you're the mob and haynar is my cleric.

I'd much rather you annoy me than him.

[Desert]

honestly i love how the OP is nowhere to be found after Haynar spawned.

[Ruinous]

Haynar scowls at you, ready to attack! What would you like your tombstone to say?

Morndenkainen has gone linkdead.

:eek: :eek:

[km2783]

Someone questioned him, and again someone backed him up to confirm that this is how it works. Even in the face of answers you're too set about your ways to consider that you are incorrect. I'm perfectly willing to accept facts that disprove what we're claiming here, yet these replies are fruitless and full of insults. The only attempt to provide evidence otherwise was from President, and despite him being jackassy with how he went about confronting us on the matter, I give him credit for it. However the screenshots he gave prove exactly what we're fighting here... whether weapon skill/offense is the strict deciding factor of hit/miss chances - in which case MY stance is that it should not be.

I don't intend to argue the matter further with any regular players here. It takes very little intelligence to consider that while a low level 5 sucks with his weapon, it is adequate to fight a low level 1 who sucks even worse at avoiding being hit with it.

I shall continue to research the subject and provide more evidence for devs to consider. In the meantime, I encourage everyone else that seems hellbent on screaming that this system is "working as intended" as per live to provide their own proof.

My point wasn't about him being questioned, and whether or not someone backed him up. My point was this: that thread provides absolutely nothing but hearsay, just like every non-dev posting in this one, and based off your quoted post and attitude in this thread, that's probably all you're going to provide for your vaunted evidence. You provide absolutely no real proof yourself and urge others to provide something you KNOW is pretty much impossible to do considering how long ago it was, insult people whose view is different from your own and that never insulted you in the first place, and then take this holier than thou tone after doing it which is just laughable.

The devs can only work with what they have. The burden of proof is NOT on the people who say it is working as intended. The burden of proof is on the people who say something is broken. To fix a bug one must know EXACTLY what is wrong and how to replicate it if possible.

[Desert]

My point wasn't about him being questioned, and whether or not someone backed him up. My point was this: that thread provides absolutely nothing but hearsay, just like every non-dev posting in this one, and based off your quoted post and attitude in this thread, that's probably all you're going to provide for your vaunted evidence. You provide absolutely no real proof yourself and urge others to provide something you KNOW is pretty much impossible to do considering how long ago it was, insult people whose view is different from your own and that never insulted you in the first place, and then take this holier than thou tone after doing it which is just laughable.

The devs can only work with what they have. The burden of proof is NOT on the people who say it is working as intended. The burden of proof is on the people who say something is broken. To fix a bug one must know EXACTLY what is wrong and how to replicate it if possible.


^^^ This, or at least know how to replicate it in order to find exactly what is wrong.

...is how I pad my post count :rolleyes:

[Morndenkainen]

You have a fix?

Code it up. Submit it..
Thought I suggested a formula previously, but here's the basic idea of what it is. I dont know how the data is set in the server code, so I cant be more precise. Still, this formula should scale well, and still provide for adequate accuracy at all levels of play as the ClassBaseHitRate is a single number that can easily be changed for each class if necessary..
Hit/Miss Result = (PlayerOffenseSkill+PlayerWeaponSkill / 2 vs CreatureDefenseSkill = HitBonus, ClassBaseHitRate+/-Hitbonus vs Random100 = Hit or Miss)

The beauty of this solution is that it uses the players skill in the weapon theyre attacking with against the mob's defense skill to give a sliding boost to hit. As the players skill and level increases, they are more likely to hit a target that is lower level, just on the virtue of that creature having a lower defense skill compared to their attack skill, thus giving them a bonus to hit, rather than soley relying on a straight weapon skill check. Also, because of the way the formula scales, the end result can still be parsed out at 50 and be accurate at level 1 as well. Im sure you can also see where a character using a weapon they are not skilled in is going to have a REALLY hard time hitting something even as soon as level 5, if they dont start training it up, just as it was in live.

If the parsing dictates a 35% miss rate for an even level mob at whatever level, so be it. If the HitBonus, is applied at .5% per point, there are still no "Assured" hits until your about 18 levels above the target your attacking. Same thing goes in the manner of a negative amount for attacking a higher level mob, or an even level mob when your skill is lower than their defense.. They get a bonus to not be hit.

Sure, I can come up with a formula, perhaps its what you already have, again, I dont know. You asked for a suggested fix however, and thats the best thought I have that will apply evenly across the levels..

[Morndenkainen]

My point wasn't about him being questioned, and whether or not someone backed him up. My point was this: that thread provides absolutely nothing but hearsay, just like every non-dev posting in this one, and based off your quoted post and attitude in this thread, that's probably all you're going to provide for your vaunted evidence. You provide absolutely no real proof yourself and urge others to provide something you KNOW is pretty much impossible to do considering how long ago it was, insult people whose view is different from your own and that never insulted you in the first place, and then take this holier than thou tone after doing it which is just laughable.

The devs can only work with what they have. The burden of proof is NOT on the people who say it is working as intended. The burden of proof is on the people who say something is broken. To fix a bug one must know EXACTLY what is wrong and how to replicate it if possible.

We can go round and round on this all day long, all night long, and on into next year, the fact of the matter is, that no one has any proof from live except for endgame data, and the best your going to get for low levels, is the input and feedback from newer players before they become accustomed to the server and their memory fades or becomes skewed. Sure the low end of the level system works for the people at level 50, thats just like saying healthcare works for the wealthy because theyre happy with it, but not for the working poor who dont qualify for the state programs.

As far as real proof goes, I dont think there is any. I wish there was, but I for one, have not found it and I've spent a few hours checking around. Yeah, there's data out there for lev 50 stuff, but not for any of the lower levels. Hate to say it, but it seems the guys who did the parsing were already end game when they got it into their heads to do it and never bothered to get records from the lower levels.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a 35% miss rate seems rather high when attacking something a good 7 levels lower. Even if they instituted my hit formula and used the ratio of .5% for the HitBonus, there would still be about a 17% miss rate on the lower level mob due to skill disparity.

Ahh well.. Even if nothing gets done, atleast I can say I tried.

[Morndenkainen]

On another note, howabout we all e-mail the guy who created EQ, and beg him to explain the system now that he's had a break with sony and verant? That'd put all the rumors to rest, and who knows, he might even decide to play on the server....

[President]

LOL I love how this retard makes up a formula and goes "oh its classic!"

[girth]

1 - I doubt any one person made the early melee system
2 - at least he's trying president :)

[President]

Hes still basing this off his memory and not any proof. His main point is he "remembers soloing up to level 23," which although stupid, could have been done over a long period of time. As Haynar stated, Melee was actually hitting "too much" off of the data he has. I don't find the miss rate out of the ordinary, I remember being pissed as fucking at low levels 10 years ago missing constantly. Haynar stated he believes there is a problem with AC (which I think most people have been aware of) that he has been working on for a long time. I also, as do many others, think there is an issue with how often mobs hit players, and the damage they do, though I don't care enough to investigate as I feel the game plays well in its current state. If Haynar is able to work out AC, and mob vs player damage/AC mitigation is worked out, then I think the OP may have an easier chance "soloing to level 23." It appears to me the OP had trouble doing what he believed he did 10 years ago and jumped straight to the conclusion that it HAD to be a PC miss rate issue, rather then AC/Mob hit rate.

[Aeolwind]

I'll double check some values, but I think when I found the way to tweak the melee values that I still left it actually short of what the rest of the emulator uses (Yep, I'm a dick =D). I'm on the process of recalculating AC's around the raid content and I can tell you that it is WAY off and most likely is the extra 2-3% over we're seeing AND the missing amount that I left for tweaking in the DB.

[President]

I'll double check some values, but I think when I found the way to tweak the melee values that I still left it actually short of what the rest of the emulator uses (Yep, I'm a dick =D). I'm on the process of recalculating AC's around the raid content and I can tell you that it is WAY off and most likely is the extra 2-3% over we're seeing AND the missing amount that I left for tweaking in the DB.

I gotta be honest Aeol... I've read this paragraph a few times and am not *quite* certain what you are talking about. Any chance you can expand upon this?

[Aeolwind]

I gotta be honest Aeol... I've read this paragraph a few times and am not *quite* certain what you are talking about. Any chance you can expand upon this?

Ok, there is a rule value that controls hit/miss rate at a variable level. Way back when it was WAY off, I tweaked it up. Problem improved a great deal. Based on what the "baseline" is for emulators there is still another I think 3% hit left in that variable we could go up.

Now, AC is totally fubar, pretty much around every mob. It was arbitrarily set either by us, or by someone else that created the mob.

Haynar said melee were hitting about 2-3% too much. Now, that means that AC is in the range of 2-3% relatively speaking. Now, couple that with the fact that the melee value is already 3% lower than what it should be, would mean that the actual value AC is off is about 6% relatively speaking.

In other words, if we tweak mob AC up right, we still have some wiggle room in variables to tweak players back in line if it swings too far the other way.

[President]

So is Haynar saying we are doing 2-3% too much damage in our hits, or we are connecting with the mob 2-3% too often? I guess they could still be related as far as overall difficulty goes, but I did not think AC had anything to do with miss/dodge/parry/etc.

[stormlord]

EQ has never had a good combat system. They basically threw it together trying to base it on D&D.

As far as my hit rate, I haven't noticed problems. Although I swear I was getting hit a lot when looting my corpse and that I got hit less and less until I was fully equipped. I know that's unrelated to pc hit rate.

And you know, generally, a combat system could have it where a mob hits you everytime and you hit the mob everytime, but neither would hit the other very hard. There's no universal law that says you have to miss or hit a certain way. A system is broke when it implicates a = b, but in reality, a != b. Otherwise, bleh.

The #1 thing I care about, as a player and a programmer and a gamer, is that I can work to change the outcome of events (like combat). Whether this is through learning about stats or items and changing them or, in general, changing the conditions of the fight, like when I run or when I attack or when I cast a spell, without my ability to change it then I am merely audience to a random number generator with no control whatsoever. I think random number generators add an element of realism to events that make them more believable, but without proper control mechanisms and forethought about how the player and the game come together, it can very quickly go from being a game to simply being a movie you watch where you're not participating.

[Aeolwind]

So is Haynar saying we are doing 2-3% too much damage in our hits, or we are connecting with the mob 2-3% too often? I guess they could still be related as far as overall difficulty goes, but I did not think AC had anything to do with miss/dodge/parry/etc.

Connecting 2-3% too much. AC affects damage dealt and frequency of max hits....it also does/can affect hit rate. A miss is not always a miss, sometimes it is a hit that glances off your armor. I could also be a thousand miles off the mark, but I discovered the AC "problem" while working in Sky. It was definitely evident. And by it being so out of whack, a lot of mobs were literally loot pinatas offering virtually no challenge, strikingly similar to now but surprisingly worse.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get the raid combat stuff tweaked around eventually to rectify that.

[President]

Thanks Aeol.

[Haynar]

The hit rate is only off slightly.

Its the mitigation rates that are fubar.

I am working on fixing the faction wars once and for all at the moment. I spent about 10 hours working on them this weekend. I think I have them fixed finally, have a bit more testing to do first. Then I have one more bug that I found while working the faction wars. After I figure that one out, I will go back to work on the mitigation and damage tables.

Haynar

[Morndenkainen]

Haynar, two questions...
1. For the hard data that you have, at what point or levels do you feel the miss rate is off slightly?
2. What is the current hit/miss formula?

I understand if you dont want to post the formula for the world to see, PM's work.

[km2783]

Haynar, two questions...
1. For the hard data that you have, at what point or levels do you feel the miss rate is off slightly?
2. What is the current hit/miss formula?

I understand if you dont want to post the formula for the world to see, PM's work.

He said back on page 18 that melee were actually hitting a bit too much, so it's not less. :) Just FYI, in case you missed the post. But the mitigation issues could explain larger amounts of low damage hits.

[Kainzo]

He said back on page 18 that melee were actually hitting a bit too much, so it's not less. :) Just FYI, in case you missed the post. But the mitigation issues could explain larger amounts of low damage hits.

At 25 - im missing more than 35% of the time. I won't make a fuss about it unless I hit 50 and I'm still missing the same amount on BLUE mobs.

[President]

At 25 - im missing more than 35% of the time. I won't make a fuss about it unless I hit 50 and I'm still missing the same amount on BLUE mobs.

Got some parses/screenshots on that? Do not remember seeing anything like that.

[Yoite]

anyone using GameParse? it was working fine last time i was using it on live, but i cant get it working fully on P99.

I can get it to read the data of a fight and it will show my current fight data, so i can see my dmg and dps and others dmg and dps and total dps, so i know its sorta working. But it is not "recording" any fights so i can go back and review the detailed data such as miss/hits etc etc etc.

Don't wanna turn this into a gamparse discussion but if anyone is using it and has it working on P99 can you send me a PM?

[Kainzo]

use YALP parser. It was the classic parser, for kunark/veilous.

As I type this, I realize I no longer have the classic Version and Yalp.org is now shut down. This saddens me. I will take an hour to reflect on what this does to my life and how it changes my parsing ability.

[Striiker]

Thank you Haynar for the responses. I was noticing how badly my SK was doing with his 2-Hander. I thought that I must be experiencing a lot of bad luck against those Blackburrow gnolls but now see that I am not alone.

[Morndenkainen]

He said back on page 18 that melee were actually hitting a bit too much, so it's not less. :) Just FYI, in case you missed the post. But the mitigation issues could explain larger amounts of low damage hits.

Im assuming the majority of the data he has is from a level 50 player, I'd just like to know what the data says that level 50 warrior/whatever is fighting. A level 12 mob? A level 50 mob? And what the actual miss % should be. It would REALLY help if I'd had some actual numbers to work off, but since finding parses seems next to impossible, (for me atleast) im left to go off of memory, and what other people "remember" as well.

Think of it this way. If a lev 50, fighting a level 50 mob, is supposed to miss 35-38% of the time, dont you think that a Lev 50 fighting a level 32 mob, should be hitting alot more than 65% of the time? Which I believe Presidents picture clearly shows...

Given the informantion Haynar has already provided and my current miss rate, I should be missing almost 38-43% of the time against a level 7 mob.. The char level 14 now and has offense/weapon skills maxed. I know thats not right. Can I prove it? No. Can you prove im wrong? No. Regardless, most people would agree the miss rate should be alot lower, especially considering that the melee skills I have are more than adequate to beat out a creatures thats 1/2 my level. Otherwise warriors will continue to be ineffective tanks because they simply cant hit.. Given the formula I tossed Haynar, the miss rate for what im fighting would be approximatley 18% lower or around 20-23%, which although sounds high, is still alot more accurate than it currently is.

Come to think of it, Does anyone out there with a level 19 or higher Melee char ever miss a level 1 mob?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Aside from Haynar's own admissions that the miss % should probably be higher based on his initimate knowledge of the internal workings of the melee equations and the mitigation parameters on the mobs, we have NO WAY of adjusting this to EQ Live 1999, at least in the level range you're describing, based on anything other than speculation or a personal opinion. Which is no way to adjust one of the most fundamental, game-balancing equations in the code.

So unless we invent a time machine, go back to 1999, parse some shit as a level 10-20 against mobs in the range we're talking about here, all the effort on this thread could have been spent... well... leveling your character (in a group, since blues can't be soloed effectively) up to the level where those equations no longer break down and you are relatively satisfied with your hit ratio where it doesn't ruin the game for you personally. Just as hundreds of melees on the server have before us, without it being game-breaking for them.

I understand your frustration, but you're trying to change something where the data you need to back up your claims no longer exists. Even if Haynar PMs you the melee equations, all you can do is reply back to him "Well, I *think* this is how this equation needs to be adjusted for encounters with a level difference of X..." which, does not guarantee that it moves the resulting damage curves closer to EQ Live 1999 in any fashion, and risks completely breaking the game when right now it is clearly playable.

[Ruinous]

I lol that this thread continues to thrive. Morndenkainen, give it up already man. The reality is that:

Both sides of this argument are based off personal memory of EQLive in '99. I agree that there could probably be a more effective equation in place to calculate hits/misses and damage in general, but the truth is that all of these variables and equations were black-boxed on Live. The Emu and P99 devs did their best to recreate it via memory and this is where it's at. And from what I understand, the work they've done here on P99 for the melee system is much better than how the other Emu servers work. Pretty much end of story.

Unless you're downloading the Emu source to create your own server, implement working algorithms, and doing an assload of parsing to prove that it's more effective, there's really nothing being contributed to this thread. Even with logs of ONE class from '99 fighting all the way from level 1-50 against mobs of various levels, that still only shows data for a single class. Look up the theorycrafting equation for melee DPS and you'd know that it would be fairly worthless since most classes have different damage modifier values - and possibly different hit/miss modifiers as well.

You can argue til you're blue in the face (trust me, I know!) but in the end it comes down to the Dev's thinking this is how it should be. Considering all of the variables that can throw this system much further off than it is, I'm content with dealing with it. I gave up trying to fight on this thread to actually level, and I'm to the point where I'd need to be in groups anyways. Problem solved.

[Haynar]

Haynar, two questions...
1. For the hard data that you have, at what point or levels do you feel the miss rate is off slightly?
2. What is the current hit/miss formula?

I understand if you dont want to post the formula for the world to see, PM's work.
I am not going to debate what is correct or not. What is right or not. If you remember back in velious, everyone had a parser. And everyone knew how AC worked. And everyone knew that HP > All. And they were wrong.

There are tons of parses on the monk boards. The warrior boards. And Brael over at the SK boards just rocks. I hear he plays a char here sometimes too.

The list of people who have figured out a large part of how it really works is long.

The list of people who think they know how it really works, but don't, is longer.

I am an open source type of guy. I am all for sharing code, but this is not an open source project. But I will post links to the resources I use for figuring out information. There are lots of gaps at the low end. So much of that is just guessing, and extrapolating (with adjustments) to live.

The miss rates currently, are not off much from what classic was. So I am going to quit responding to people who complain about miss rates. And this thread. If you need hard evidence, that this is how classic really was, then go build yourself a time machine, and go back to 1999.

Haynar

[Dantes]

Thought that the difficulty on his warrior was on par for live but did not recall miss rate. Said he would get parses comapring his melee and necro. Then stated he feels misses are higher than he recalls, but did not get any parses like he said he would:
Dantes

Yeah I figured it would be pointless. After hearing the different accounts from several folks higher level than me -- I'm on the side that it's close enough to normal that the devs don't need to waste time looking into it.

[President]

Yeah I figured it would be pointless. After hearing the different accounts from several folks higher level than me -- I'm on the side that it's close enough to normal that the devs don't need to waste time looking into it.

Sorry, I think my description of you came off differently than I intended. It wasn't supposed to call you out, but show that the people who were going to get parses more than like found it "pointless" as you described, and never bothered.

[Dantes]

Sorry, I think my description of you came off differently than I intended. It wasn't supposed to call you out, but show that the people who were going to get parses more than like found it "pointless" as you described, and never bothered.

No offense taken. :)

[Aeolwind]

You freaks shit up this thread and get it parked in R&F I'll ban hammer the lot of you. Deleting the nonsensical crap.