Ever seen real European sword fight

[soules]

Saw this on another forum, pretty intense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv9uDDQxWMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucY76MMFbK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io9I4wZ8FZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xA7SMEiI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKM_tXlYiag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA

Quoted from poster

"Have you ever seen a real European sword fight? I don't mean Hollywood nonsense and such.

Indeed it isn't less enjoyable and pleasant to watch than an Asian or especially Japanese sword fight.

These are actual traditional European medieval and Renaissance long sword techniques. Something might look like Kendo and such but they had been developed for centuries on their own. It is just a pity that they have almost gone into oblivion. Great to see them still being cultivated.

These performers are from Germany, Slowakia, Czechia and USA. Most of the text is medieval German directly from the medieval books:"

[BeepBeep]

that's really cool. I have a feeling if i tried i'd accidently just stab someone

[Hasbinbad]

Those are awesome, especially the sparring!

This is a very rare look at Toyoma Ryu Kenjutsu sparring.. It's not traditional kendo (kenjutsu), which is very fast and focuses more on scoring points than killing blows; this is Toyoma Ryu, which is something like the art of the perfect cut. This art is almost never used to spar, since it is very dangerous (note the full armor). This (way too short) clip is probably much more akin to an actual duel between samurai than any other video I have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7nUFpznK7E

[ShadowWulf]

People have a mental image of fat guys in heavy as hell plate armor slowwwwly lumbering along swatting at each other.

The Truth is that real European fighting styles were flowing and fast, however I would personally argue for their brutality as well against a more "artistic" oriental form. The oriental styles are in style because they ARE artistic, though as has been shown not always particularly useful, especially outside their designed elements. The art tends to be eschewed in European styles for the practicality of quickly and brutally killing the target.

Whats more important to remember is that they also traditionally fought in armor. While encumbering a well trained swordsman with a PROPERLY custom tailored and weighed suit could still fight full bore, and in fact the added distrubition of weight aided in several of the styles by adding more heft and force to follow through cuts.

Of course take any said swordsman out of the armor, and they're even FASTER, training in full plate had its advantages. Now I dont want this next comment to off as racist, but its genetics. A massive two handed sword (ala a Zweihander) is of modest to no use in a smaller persons hands than say a lighter, faster more flowing Katana. So some differences in styles reflect not just the cultures but also at times the races and sizes, as well as materials and techniques, available to any given race or culture across the globe.

You will see the same applied to the Maori favored, brutal clubs and natural made implements (favoring power above all else), the flowing design of oriental weapons (Technique, and speed), the massive Claymore of the highlanders (reach, power, technique), native American bows and spears (Range, ease of use and practicality). Some styles of course develop outside cultural or continental norms. People forget some of the most feared and effective mercenaries of the middle ages were the swiss and their feared pikes! There is no replacement of course for material and technological ability. One could argue Greeks could of been more effective as well in field plate but alass the technology wor such would not come along for a vary long time.

Many of the styles in these videos are from a translated "Book of Arms" from I believe the 12th century that was translated and then put into action again, for the first time in hundreds of years in fact. The real arts had died out and ceased to be practiced by anybody with the rise of gunpowder and, to a lesser though still related extent, Florentine style fencing and other more stylized arts.

Im kinda a medieval weapons nut and medieval history scholar in my spare time, with a definite slant of European techniques and history so if anybody would like to debate the Asian side things feel free I admit that's my weak point (out of a disdain for stylized weapons more than anything else really.)

[Hasbinbad]

(out of a disdain for stylized weapons more than anything else really.)
Explain.

[ShadowWulf]

Explain.

Again, its not a professional level comment. It would be akin to you saying "I like Blue" and I say "I like red" and theeeen we can argue to the ends of time over it. However theyre both personal observations, but NOT bound in a concrete truth.

Oriental weapons are just as deadly, in the proper hands, as medieval. And more so, they each excel and falter equally in specific fields.

They are both wonderfully designed weapons (as I consider almost all martial weapons) at a simple, personal act of killing or maiming another body. They just do it differently.

On a personal level though, i find myself favoring (and hence studying) the more brutal European weapons (one of while, the traditional Flail, is tattooed from my back and around my neck). The shear damage, yet simplicity and effectiveness combined with what some would say intentional CRUELTY (which i would not argue against) design of some of these weapons is absolutely stunning. The variety in Halberds and pikes alone shines as a long history of effective, cruel, messy killing.

http://www.mamalisa.com/images/blog/halberd.gif

Then with the Hunga Munga style knives (Arfican btw), these were ment to simply kill no matter how the damn thing was used! http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-and-armour/600/1908.65.3.jpg

ANother simple but effective and brutal weapon, ancient and easy to build, the Bar Mace.
http://historyshop.piratemerch.com/images/mace_600652.jpg

Sometimes the shear disturbing engineering that goes into ancient methods of maiming another human stand out. I supose in an artistic sense, european weapons tend to exude a menace, cruel brutal theme where as oriental weapons (Still effective at killing!!!) exude a more flowing, artistic and "clean" art to the act, if that makes sense.
Just as a quick add on its also why even with hand combat i find myself favoring more straight forward arts, based in practicality and forwardness more than, again, the flowing lines of oriental arts. So much so im starting russian Systema training next month here in Burbank. The style appeals to me ALOT, its not the "best" im sure, but that's not what I was after either, the style appeals to me.

[Hasbinbad]

I see your halberds and raise your the katana-on-a-stick (Naginata) and the Chinese Glaive (Kwan Dao):
http://www.acercadejapon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Naginata_M.jpg
http://www.wle.com/media/W063-C.jpg

I see your European flail and raise you the various forms of Chigiriki:
http://www.fudoshindojo.hu/content/fegyverek/kepek/chigiriki03.jpghttp://nd03.jxs.cz/229/847/b302faa10f_63195724_o2.jpg

Those are just a couple of the brutally effective weapons with very little in the way of bells and whistles.. Every culture has showy weapons, but they are probably rare in actual battles? I doubt you can find anything about these weapons that are not cruel or brutal..

[Hasbinbad]

Not to mention the 3 Section Staff:
http://www.wle.com/media/W351.jpg

Or the Iron Staff:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1974.5.jpg

[ShadowWulf]

All wonderful weapons, without a doubt, But again I return to my rather....artistic view of weapons with their "clean" flowing lines and, in use, artistic methods of use, as one could say.

I will admit a full length Chigiriki is a badass weapon to behold.

But, again its a personal preference, I absolutely love the simple straight lines and heft, strength and brutality inherent in such as a war hammer

http://www.dungeonknight.com/images/detailed_images/dknight-600756.jpg

the beautiful simplicity of a Violet-le-Duc Battle Axe (french)
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/sg-1902b.jpg

The wonder of the applications of a good flail:
http://www.realmcollections.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/_/F/_Flail_Mace_IO13120_18448.jpg

I suppose though, I do love the spartan, straight edge western styles. Simple, or more so? Art, as such even in the art of weapons is a difficult thing to define but an easy one to appreciate, no?

http://www.topnews.in/files/My4Swords.jpg

EDIT: This thread is awesome, not often I meet someone with a critical eye towards a good blade but without the annoying "Lulz ill just shoot you with my glock!" comments that crop up sooner or later.

[Hasbinbad]

russian Systema
That shit is bad the fuck ass. I know a couple guys who are into that, that train resistance against each other instead of weights.. It doesn't even look like they are doing anything, and they put people on their asses.

If you combine systema with jiujitsu (many do), and train the grabs, holds, pressure points, etc., of jiujitsu with the resistance training of systema, you become this crazy force of nature guy who can completely cripple people without even looking like you're moving. It's insanostupidfucktardedsick.

[ShadowWulf]

Also, as an historical aside one weapons ive always desired but have not been able to afford/find as yet is a bronze blade. Theyre stunning to behold, and a real piece of tangible history when you marvel over their design and use.

http://www.geevor.com/media/images/Rocks%20and%20Metals/copper-%20bronze%20sword.JPG

[Omnimorph]

coolest weapon i reckon to master would be...

http://anglocatholicninjas.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/kusarigama1.jpg

So badass

[Hasbinbad]

This shit here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PKfW2R6x_E

Especially 5:40-5:55 imo.

[ShadowWulf]

This shit here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PKfW2R6x_E

Especially 5:40-5:55 imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuq50cDfrTs Classic footage. Theyre fighting with ANTLERS. This is real training also.

My class: http://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/systema_training.html There arent terribly many places that actually TEACH systema as it is. The class/teacher I have assured me they will be covering shovel combat, in addition to other improvised weapons.

MMM, shovels....

[Hasbinbad]

Ballistic Striking is the term I was looking for within Systema:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U__Mcpya40

[ShadowWulf]

More weapon porn?

http://www.myarmoury.com/images/reviews/ws_brassrondel_a_s.jpg

http://www.myarmoury.com/images/reviews/aa_iberian_c_s.jpg

http://www.myarmoury.com/images/reviews/aa_custxx_a_s.jpg

http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/image/battle-ready-sword/64-gladiusII-sword.JPG

[Hasbinbad]

Yoshindo Yoshihara (generally recognized as the best living swordsmith in Japan):
http://www.japaneseartswords.com/files/Yoshindo%20tanto.jpg

Kawasaki Akihira (40-something up-and-comer):
http://www.thejapanesesword.com/swordsmiths/map/Saitama/Akihira.jpg

Miyamoto Musashi (Edo-period, 17th century):
http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com/Antique_Samurai_Swords_Katanas_Wakizashi/Miyamoto-Kanenori_Katana/Miyamoto-Kanenori-Large.jpg

A replica of the Honjo Masamune (celebrated as the greatest sword ever created, a Japanese national treasure, and almost a thousand years old - the real sword was stolen):
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZhvRbFeBVlU/SwCheZGdy9I/AAAAAAAAAqw/cmZ1hBW6snU/s1600/salehudin+5.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

Let's not forget war fans (tessen)! These weapons could be used folded as a club (each spine is solid iron/steel), or stabbing weapon (sometimes pointed spines). Also they could be used defensively to block a sword or small (non-gun) projectiles such as arrows or thrown knives when unfolded (similar to a buckler).

Antique Tessen:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=55867&stc=1

Contemporary Tessen:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=55868&stc=1

[ShadowWulf]

Ohh he brought out the HR images first....

so to not be outdone....

Damascus steel blades!
http://www.solydedge.com/knives/c1185.jpg

http://www.ruthknives.com/knives/Damascus-Mammoth-mont.jpg

http://www.valyriansteel.com/images/damascusclose.jpg

http://www.fisk-knives.com/micro-09-sword-fini.jpg

Balls in your court.

[ShadowWulf]

And, I see your fan and raise you a Sword Breaker

http://www.theboykos.com/sca/swordbreaker.JPG

And the Parrying Dagger

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b340/olaf_yahoo/swordcapturedagger.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

Wootz for Damascus steel! (do u c wat i did ther?)
I get asked this kind of question a lot lately and I also hear things like, Jeez Damascus is a lost art, isn’t it? Or Damascus is sharper than ordinary steel and on and on. Well these are valid questions and can not be answered in a few words like yup sure is or nope it aint. The problem of a short answer is also due to, what is Damascus steel? Many folks have heard the term Damascus, have heard of Japanese swords and have been subject to some misleading information along the way. I sometimes hear people say things like; katana are folded a million times and can cut machinegun barrels. Or how about the story of the blade that cut the anvil in half that made it. Or the Japanese sword that is so sharp that it will cut a leaf in half upon contacting the sword edge as it floats down the creek. And then there is the old falling silk scarf story. Hey Kevin Costner showed us that one in a movie, right.
In a way, I hate to lift the veils of lore and let the bright rays of enlightenment shine in, but some of us are taking these things a little too serious, aren’t we? And yet we can’t help but wonder at times if just maybe there may be a very small glimmer of truth somewhere in one or more of these tails.

In June of 2002 I held a Damascus symposium here at the shop and one of the featured speakers Dr. Sung Beck is a Grandmaster Swordsman. He delighted us with his exquisite collection of Chinese and Japanese swords and also with his finely tuned wit and story telling abilities.
His humorous stories had a point though, pun not intended, and gave us just a little insight as to what it was and is all about. His stories told us how to straighten a bent Japanese sword by banging it over a log or using a monkey wrench and how to pick out a good one for battle; they were truly enlightening and gave us all something to think about. Dr. Beck made many comments from his observations from his past training of cutting numerous things for practice with Chinese and Japanese swords over the years and some of them made perfect sense and others I will have to think about for a spell.

OK, before we get rolling let’s start with just a smattering of background to pave the way. Damascus is a place in Syria and is where westerners first observed the famed swords of the Far East. Actually they were made in India from a steel called wootz and only discovered in the city of Damascus. Wootz steel is melted in small sealed clay crucibles from steel scraps and carbon bearing materials and after solidifying, were then forged at a very low heat into sword blades. Sword remnants tested for content were often found to contain a fair amount of sulfur and phosphorous. It is believed that this made the cast ingots red short, difficult to forge and is very likely the governing secret to the success of Damascus blades. The higher heats that the European smiths were accustomed to, would have crumbled the steel and it also would not have produced the kind of steel that made them famous. Although the task of forging at such a low and narrow band of temperature was difficult, the first side-affect or benefit was tougher and springier steel with superior edge holding properties. The second benefit was the pattern formed by the ghosting of the dendrites which were formed during the slow initial cooling of the ingot. It was discovered recently by Al Pendray and Dr. John Verhoeven that the trace amounts of vanadium were responsible for forming the Damascus patterns because they aligned along the grain boundaries of the dendrites and due to forging at a reduced heat, retained the image throughout the forging process. Although it was the dendrite pattern that gave rise to the Damascening, they soon learned also how to enhance the patterns mechanically.

During this same time frame the Japanese were discovering the methods of producing fine steel blades from iron ore panned from the rivers. This panned ore was smelted in a wood coke furnace and the crude metal was broken up into pieces, forged flat and stacked into billets. These stacks were forge welded together and forged to length. Then it was folded first length wise and after welding and forging again folded sideways and welded again. This process was repeated from 8 to 16 times in order to refine the impurities out of the steel and to remove excess carbon. If you will get out your calculator, you will find that 16 folds will give you 65,536layers of steel if you start with one single layer, if you started with an 8 layer stack, 17 folds will give you 1,048,576 layers. How many layers would you get if you folded the steel one million times? Now this is assuming that you would have the time or, due to material loss from scaling, any thing left to work with.

Now when the sword is forged out of this steel, all of the layers will be lined up and going in the same direction. Any flexing of the blade sideways will be stretching half of these layers and compressing the other half. For sure, this would be as strong and resilient as a modern day forged blade of solid non layered steel. In fact I think that it can be argued that the layered steel would be more resilient because any stress cracking may be stopped as it reaches the next layer. Flexing the sword blade up or down would be the same as any other homogenous blade as each layer is undergoing the same stresses.

Modern day Damascus or Pattern welded steel is manipulated in various ways to produce some very striking looking patterns. Many of these layers will be aligned in such an order as to produce a sound blade, but some of the layers will be running contrary to that which will produce a good blade. In other words some layers will weaken a blade because of an adverse alignment of weld lines. In such a blade, if you flex the blade sideways, the layers do not just stretch or compress, they could pull apart at the welds. A multi bar composite blade or a sanmai blade will have built in factors favorable to the strength of the blade if done in the right way.

A many layered blade will likely have weld lines running across the edge and this will give the edge a micro serration edge. This edge will feel sharper than a homogenous blade and will out cut a conventional blade using a slicing motion. By folding the steel billet like a paper airplane, according to Dr. Beck, the Japanese could improve the swords cutting abilities on the tip’s first couple of inches. This is the working part, the rest of the blade is there to put the first two inches into proper reach. He also suggested that the sword could be made to cut either on a forward slice or on a rearward slice depending on the way the folds were made.

When you boil it all down, cutting is a function of blade geometry, hardness, toughness, sharpness, micro edge serration and technique. Yes Damascus can be stronger, no it sometimes isn’t. Yes Damascus does feel sharper and for many cutting tasks will out perform a conventional blade.

It is interesting to note that Damascus swords and the katana had a parallel history a world apart from each other and both had an impact on the rest of the world. It is also interesting that both art forms were very nearly lost, indeed, one had to be reinvented. The modern day Damascus or (pattern welded blade) is a blend of both ancient arts and has taken on a life of its own. According to Dr. Verhoeven, pattern welding predates both of these technologies. Check out the Historical Background of Damascus steel by Dr. John Verhoeven Today’s patterns have transcended those of ancient times, but are they as battle worthy? I believe that many modern day smiths have the capability of producing a blade just as battle worthy as their ancient counterparts and better. And yes there likely are a some blades that although very beautiful will not stand up to battle conditions.

If art is truly, “form follows function”, then where does that leave some of today’s stunning looking blades? I would suggest that the really true art form is in both beauty and functionality.

As far as the sword breaker and parrying dagger.. Specialized defensive tools are no mystery to Japan:

Allow me to introduce the Kabuto Wari (Helmet Breaker). Armorsmiths in the edo period prided themselves on being able to make helmets that katana could not cut, and a swordsmith was tasked with creating a blade that could, upon pain of hara-kiri; the result was a heavy blade that didn't look like much, but could cut through a heavy steel helmet at close range:
http://sites.google.com/site/sfswordsociety/exhibition-swords/hachi-warihelmetbreaker/tanto14.jpg

The above is the precursor to the Jutte, an edo-period police baton, which could also be used to catch and break a katana:
http://www.bugei.com/images/jutte_iron.jpg

Which reminds me that you like clubs, and that I forgot about the Kanabo:
http://sengokudaimyo.com/Tempstuff/tetsubo001.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bmP8W-b6nlQ/Sf7rc4fYQhI/AAAAAAAAAAM/HJDhdMl645c/S660/kanabo.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

..and let's not forget that most effective and devastating of all clubs, used today by martial artists and riot control squads alike, the Japanese-invented Tonfa:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Polizei-Tonfa-Pfefferspray.jpg
http://www.japanesejujitsu.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/tonfa.gif
http://worldsofimagination.com/Tonfas.jpg

Ahhh.. When you absolutely, positively, gotta beat the holy living shit out of every motherfucker in the room, the metal tonfa:
http://olympiakolkata.com/Tonfa.jpg

[ShadowWulf]

The European Stiletto had the exact same purpose of punching through armor, plate and chain alike.

http://www.stormthewalls.kicks-ass.net/Armour/Full/Stiletto2.jpg

When you boil it all down, cutting is a function of blade geometry, hardness, toughness, sharpness, micro edge serration and technique. Yes Damascus can be stronger, no it sometimes isn’t. Yes Damascus does feel sharper and for many cutting tasks will out perform a conventional blade.

You make an excellent point, well the article does. The styles are wonderful though and the debate over the "best" is one of those maker defined issues, not a concrete issue really.

Clubs are great, but I think we should bring the Man Catcher back for riot control...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3044/2940314410_9bd2a7e456.jpg?v=0

[Hasbinbad]

They have that in Japan too!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/WeaponsForCapturingThieves.jpg/600px-WeaponsForCapturingThieves.jpg

In fact, they still use it! These are modern Sasumata that you might find in any modern school:

http://neji.web.infoseek.co.jp/sag10.jpg

..where they are used by teachers to capture creepy men hanging around schools (a big problem in Japan):

http://neji.web.infoseek.co.jp/sasumata6.jpg
http://www.shinwa-musen.co.jp/sasu/sasumata1.jpg

[Dork]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d111/Geistlich/kittys-love-thread-1.png

[mgellan]

/agree!!!!

[ShadowWulf]

http://therionarms.com/armor/polearm10.jpg

http://www.welovedc.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/halberd.jpg

The Swiss, with their head-down attack in huge columns with the long pike, refusal to take prisoners, and consistent record of victory, were greatly feared and admired—for instance, Machiavelli addresses their system of combat at length in The Prince. The Valois Kings of France, in fact, considered it a virtual impossibility to take the field of battle without Swiss pikemen as the infantry core of their armies. (Although often referred to as "pikemen," the Swiss mercenary units also contained halberdiers as well until several decades into the sixteenth century, as well as a small number of skirmishers armed with crossbows or crude firearms to precede the rapid advance of the attack column.)

The young men who went off to fight, and sometimes die, in foreign service had several incentives—limited economic options in the still largely-rural cantons; adventure; pride in the reputation of the Swiss as soldiers; and finally what military historian Sir Charles Oman describes as a pure love of combat and warfighting in and of itself, forged by two centuries of conflict.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_C0W15kvh9gE/SI23IBdDbNI/AAAAAAAAAYc/G64hrQjdrCU/Lion+Monument+-+Lucerne.JPG

super high res here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/6308_-_Luzern_-_L%C3%B6wendenkmal.JPG

From the early 17th century, a regiment of Swiss mercenaries had served as part of the Royal Household of France. On 6 October 1789, King Louis XVI had been forced to move with his family from the Palace of Versailles to the Tuileries Palace in Paris. In June 1791 he tried to flee abroad. In the 1792 10th of August Insurrection, revolutionaries stormed the palace. Fighting broke out spontaneously after the Royal Family had been escorted from the Tuileries to take refuge with the Legislative Assembly. The Swiss ran low on ammunition and were overwhelmed by superior numbers. A note written by the King has survived, ordering the Swiss to retire and return to their barracks, but this was only acted on after their position had become untenable.

Of the Swiss Guards defending the Tuileries, more than six hundred were killed during the fighting or massacred after surrender. An estimated two hundred more died in prison of their wounds or were killed during the September Massacres that followed. Apart from about a hundred Swiss who escaped from the Tuileries, the only survivors of the regiment were a 300 strong detachment which had been sent to Normandy a few days before August 10. The Swiss officers were mostly amongst those massacred, although Major Karl Josef von Bachmann — in command at the Tuileries — was formally tried and guillotined in September, still wearing his red uniform coat. However two surviving Swiss officers went on to reach senior rank under Napoleon.

The initiative to create the monument was taken by Karl Pfyffer von Altishofen, an officer of the Guards who had been on leave in Lucerne at that time of the fight. He began collecting money in 1818. The monument was designed by Danish sculptor Bertel Thorvaldsen, and finally hewn in 1820–21 by Lukas Ahorn, in a former sandstone quarry near Lucerne.

The monument is dedicated Helvetiorum Fidei ac Virtuti ("To the loyalty and bravery of the Swiss"). The dying lion is portrayed impaled by a spear, covering a shield bearing the fleur-de-lis of the French monarchy; beside him is another shield bearing the coat of arms of Switzerland. The inscription below the sculpture lists the names of the officers, and approximate numbers of the soldiers who died (DCCLX = 760), and survived (CCCL = 350).

And, thus ended the noble legacy of the Swiss Mercenaries. This memorial remains in my opinion one of the most beautiful and meaningful I have ever seen.

[Arteker]

U Are wrong . do some research .u forgot That swiss royal regiment was also on service of spain and infact Reding and his swiss regiment were the key to the french defeat at bailen .

And worse the swiss mercs were cured of his tenacity by the spaniards on bicocca (having the honor to be the first army to lost agaisnt a army made almost of arquebusiers).

[ShadowWulf]

U Are wrong . do some research .u forgot That swiss royal regiment was also on service of spain and infact Reding and his swiss regiment were the key to the french defeat at bailen .

And worse the swiss mercs were cured of his tenacity by the spaniards on bicocca (having the honor to be the first army to lost agaisnt a army made almost of arquebusiers).

Yes you are correct more or less. I was off my a few decades.

From the latter part of the seventeenth century these could be found serving in Spain itself or in its possessions, and fought against Portugal, against rebellions in Catalonia, in the War of the Spanish Succession, War of the Polish Succession, War of the Austrian Succession (in the fighting in Italy), and against Britain in the American Revolutionary War. Their final role in Spanish service was against the French in the Peninsular War, in which the six Swiss regiments in the Spanish army mostly stayed loyal to the Spanish—at the Battle of Bailén, the Swiss regiments pressed into French service defected back to the Spanish Army Swiss under Reding—and were eventually ground down by years of fighting. The year 1823 finally saw the end of Swiss mercenary service with the Spanish army.

Military alliances were banned under the Swiss constitution of 1848, though troops still served abroad when obliged by treaties. One such example were the Swiss serving under Francis II of the Two Sicilies who defended Gaeta in 1860 during the Italian War of Unification. This marked the end of an era.

Since 1859, only one mercenary unit has been permitted: the Vatican's Swiss Guard, which has been protecting the Pope for the last five centuries, dressed in colorful uniforms reminiscent of the Swiss mercenary's heyday. Despite it being prohibited, individual Swiss citizens carried on the tradition of foreign military service into the twentieth century, including participation in the Spanish Civil War, usually on the Republican side.

The end of an era, and the birth of the "proofing" concept in regards to armor.

[Wargazm]

I always thought the Chinese hook sword was a pretty nifty and versitile weapon:
http://images.solidcactus.com/swblades/twinhooksword.jpg

[ShadowWulf]

Crossbow VS Longbow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs

http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/CB5FA_Rams_Head_Crossbow.JPG

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3598/3613903823_45293c5546.jpg?v=0

And so the eastern fans don't feel left out, the Chinese Repeating crossbow. Though tests do show it to be the weakest of the 3 in terms of raw power (basically useless against plate completely) the speed and magazine work wonders against lightly armed foes at close quarters.

http://www.ccaba.cn/gong/ima/35-2.gif

[soules]

Also, as an historical aside one weapons ive always desired but have not been able to afford/find as yet is a bronze blade. Theyre stunning to behold, and a real piece of tangible history when you marvel over their design and use.

http://www.geevor.com/media/images/Rocks%20and%20Metals/copper-%20bronze%20sword.JPG

The color of this blade is amazing, the hilt might need some upgrading though.

Could bronze weapons even hold their own(shatter/break in half?) against some of the later weapons with iron/steel?

[soules]

Not to mention the 3 Section Staff:
http://www.wle.com/media/W351.jpg

Or the Iron Staff:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1974.5.jpg

Wow that staff is pretty spiffy too. Imagine that guy walking down the dirt rode with his staff.

[soules]

http://www.statemaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Bronze_age_weapons_Romania.jpg/300px-Bronze_age_weapons_Romania.jpg

More bronze, don't know what the circular weapons is for, maybe some kind of throwing weapon or shield.

http://www.imperiumancientarmory.com/images/Falcata_boneandbrass.jpg

Replica -Greek falcata Deepeeka Falcata (Kopis) with Bone and Brass Handle
Falcata of the Classical and Hellenistic Periods
5th - 3rd century BC

[ShadowWulf]

http://www.pattonblades.com/bronzesword6.JPG
Bronze weapons are absolutely lovely to behold.

The strength of the weapons depended alot of the forging process and the actual quality of the iron VS the bronze. A high quality bronze weapon would outlast an iron sword easily, and vice versa. However as iron became easier to work with as the techniques were refined it also became simply easier to produce large quantities of iron rather than bronze. Iron was more prone to rust and decay than bronze, however grease was cheap, bronze was not in most areas of the world.

http://www.hixenbaugh.net/images/gallery/lrg/3213a-l.jpg

Did you know more swords are found in rivers and other bodies of water, more so than any other place in the world? From the bronze into the iron age, spears axes and swords galore are easily dredged out of bodies of water. The exact reasons are unknown, though ther are many theories tossed about. One is that bodies of water are commonly used as borders or domain lines, making ambushes and combat common along them. Another holds with religious practices and gifts. None of the theories explain why so MANY and varied types of blades are discovered though, spanning many hundreds of years through the local time lines.


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9259/chakram2gv4.jpg

The round discs may be a type of Chakram. Made popular via Xena the warrior princess, its actually a indian Sikh weapon. There were smaller variants, wind and fire wheels, used as throwing and the larger variants were used in melee combat. "The chakram is classified as a quoit-type weapon, being a steel ring five to twelve inches in diameter of varying thickness. It usually has a sharp outer edge, but not always. It is thrown or hurled, either by being released after being twirled around the smooth inside edge by the forefinger (a favourite Sikh method) or released frisbee-like or discus style."

http://www.shikra.de/images/product_images/popup_images/1565_0.jpg
One of them is definitely an African wrist knife as well, perhaps[s a Persian take on the design. The image info also says its a Wikipedia image referring to Romania so I can do some more research into the specifics behind that manuscript.
edit: Its of Dacian origin, ancient romania and also at one time part of the Roman empire with heavy greek influences. Maybe another person with specialty in ancient Dacia could step up because the more rounded designs on the manuscripts, I am at a loss to explain.

[steaks6]

what kind of silly shit is this you bunch of lord of the rings faggots

you fat fucks need to go out and get some ass , preferably big ass because a skinny bitch disappoints usually

also the fat ones let you beat them and roughemup a bit

oh i like bronze weapons right in my shitter , i use this staff to please my butt constantly