A Concerned Citizen Writes...

[Bolero]

First, an introduction...

Hello all, i am a new player to the server and have enjoyed my time playing P99 but upon entering the "High End" game have experienced some very worrying behaviour.This is not a flame, no names will be mentioned, no direct attacks made i assure you. I speak as someone who sees P99 as a work of love by Developers, GMs and players alike and i greatly respect the contributions all make towards providing a quality service to all who are involved in P99, whether they be Admin or Players.

But (you know one was coming)...

A certain Guild on this server will if allowed to continue in their behaviour ruin the efforts of all by repeatedly ignoring any adherrance to the Play Nice Policies supposedly enforced throughout the server.

Here comes what i believe is genuine constructive critticism (no flame):

Would it be possible when a Major High End encounter ensues for GMs/Guides etc... to invisibly observe behaviour ?
If this were implemented, and the bad apples removed i would expect a greater enjoyment for the rest as a whole, and the declining of negative press which i am sure will or has already started to circulate concerning the P99 Project upon various other boards and MMO review websites to cease (or not start at all, hopefully).

I realize the Admin staff have a lot to do, but such bad behaviour is so rampant and frequent that even a newcommer such as myself is considering "what is the point to all of this if a few people act so immaturely ?"

I hear many people from many guilds have either quit, or are taking a break, solely because of this bad behaviour by some. Sooner or later, all who will be left will be the bad apples, and if i may continue the metaphor for a minute, who could stomache such a dish ?

The server in this instance will eventually die...

Thankyou to those who have spent the time to read this post and an even geater thanks to those who have spent the time to think about what can only be described as elementary issues which ultimately concern us all, including those behaving in such an unaccpetable manner.


Good Hunting, and may your glass be full and the sun always behind you all.

[Ashimar]

"Would it be possible when a Major High End encounter ensues for GMs/Guides etc... to invisibly observe behaviour ?"

THATS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO.

[Splorf22]

The problem is that EQ is simply not designed for player competition for raid mobs in the absence of PVP. It's just not possible for two guilds to both go for the same mob and not interfere with each other, especially in zones where the "trash" mobs are easily capable of wiping a guild, i.e. Fear/Hate. Hence, we now have instancing in MMOs.

[Alarti0001]

The problem is that EQ is simply not designed for player competition for raid mobs in the absence of PVP. It's just not possible for two guilds to both go for the same mob and not interfere with each other, especially in zones where the "trash" mobs are easily capable of wiping a guild, i.e. Fear/Hate. Hence, we now have instancing in MMOs.

until.... velious!

[Galaa]

The problem is that EQ is simply not designed for player competition for raid mobs in the absence of PVP. It's just not possible for two guilds to both go for the same mob and not interfere with each other, especially in zones where the "trash" mobs are easily capable of wiping a guild, i.e. Fear/Hate. Hence, we now have instancing in MMOs.

Change the way raid mobs are spawned.

In classic, every patch day and maintenance day resets the raid mobs, thus all of them will spawn at once. As such, its impossible for 1 or 2 guilds to dominate all raid mobs, giving a chance for the smaller guilds to have a go at the leftovers.

The devs could implement something like this, set a "maintenance day" to reset all mobs, so that no guild can dominate all mobs like it is currently. Its more classic too, since live servers resets often (one a week IIRC)

The situation now is that certain guild is farming all raid mobs, and this will not be good for the server at all. I hope the devs can see some sense in this.

[Frieza_Prexus]

A certain Guild on this server will if allowed to continue in their behaviour ruin the efforts of all by repeatedly ignoring any adherrance to the Play Nice Policies supposedly enforced throughout the server.


I would suggest that as a first step you begin listing either your specific grievances, or your specific fears. Knowing exactly what it is that has you worried will be important in establishing your concerns. Otherwise, nothing will come of this.

That said, the raiding scene is not in that bad of shape. You will hear horror stories about TMO/VD/IB all collectively being poor sports towards each other, and it does happen. However, for the most part the poor sportsmanship is limited to a number of individuals on each side. The rank and file generally "plays nice" with the others on the raiding scene, and most definitely outside of raids. The biggest problem you see (outside of smack talking which you should ignore, I know I do) is when a high-value target is nearing the end of its window and the socking begins.

Point is, most "problems" and frustrations are actually a simple fact based upon how the game is built. It is the exception, not the norm, that training KSing, and general rule breaking takes place.

There are a number of vocal people (troll or otherwise) here that are trying to paint a picture of a particular guild as a bad guy (See: Harrison & his TMO threads along with all of my unaddressed rebuttals). Take that with a grain of salt, and do some investigation.

If you are having a problem with a particular individual or group of individuals document, SS, or FRAPs the behavior. If you can prove wrongdoing, the majority of guilds on this server will discipline that member without hesitation. Granted, it is a high standard to satisfy (prooving outright wrong doing), but if you can, you will be heard.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Change the way raid mobs are spawned.

In classic, every patch day and maintenance day resets the raid mobs, thus all of them will spawn at once. As such, its impossible for 1 or 2 guilds to dominate all raid mobs, giving a chance for the smaller guilds to have a go at the leftovers.

The devs could implement something like this, set a "maintenance day" to reset all mobs, so that no guild can dominate all mobs like it is currently.

Something like a maint. day would be cool imo.


but would probably have to change the reset time each week so its not always the same reset time.. give european guilds a chance too.


maybe each successive reset could be 2 or 3 hours later in the day than the previous reset so its always rotating through all the time zones.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Also, for those interested in eliminating the variance as it currently stands: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=566409&postcount=62

Nilbog began a discussion in the post I listed above. It hasn't produce any fruit, but let the staff know you support that idea and it might keep gaining traction.

[Autotune]

I am a new player too!

[fischsemmel]

In classic, every patch day and maintenance day resets the raid mobs, thus all of them will spawn at once. As such, its impossible for 1 or 2 guilds to dominate all raid mobs, giving a chance for the smaller guilds to have a go at the leftovers.

The one time this has happened recently, TMO killed VS, Trak, CT (and draco), Inny (and maestro), Fay, Gore, and all of VP.

That's 14 (out of like 18? unless you count chardok and sky and hole) raid targets, inlcuding the 10+ most valuable ones.

And I guarantee you that if this started happening more often, let alone if these repops were scheduled beforehand, TMO could/would organize in such a way that would get them even more of those targets.


Don't think that I'm talking smack, because I'm not. I'm just pointing out that this whole "20 raid targets up at once is going to mean the little guys kill half of the mobs!" thing is total hogwash. The little guys would have more of a shot of killing something than they do now (short of poopsocking), but server repops will hardly stop 1 or 2 guilds from almost totally dominating the raid scene.

[Galaa]

The one time this has happened recently, TMO killed VS, Trak, CT (and draco), Inny (and maestro), Fay, Gore, and all of VP.

That's 14 (out of like 18? unless you count chardok and sky and hole) raid targets, inlcuding the 10+ most valuable ones.

And I guarantee you that if this started happening more often, let alone if these repops were scheduled beforehand, TMO could/would organize in such a way that would get them even more of those targets.


Don't think that I'm talking smack, because I'm not. I'm just pointing out that this whole "20 raid targets up at once is going to mean the little guys kill half of the mobs!" thing is total hogwash. The little guys would have more of a shot of killing something than they do now (short of poopsocking), but server repops will hardly stop 1 or 2 guilds from almost totally dominating the raid scene.

Its still MUCH better than what we have right now. If there's a scheduled maintenance every week, and everyone knows that raid mobs will be up right after the maintenance, they will be able to plan for it beforehand, and get ready to raid them as soon as the server comes up. Infact, with this "maintenance" system, as time goes by, smaller guilds can even make alliances to raid, as they know the exact time that the server is coming up. Once more guilds get used to making alliances to raid (made easy due to a fixed date/timing of spawns therefore less coordination problem), it will be even harder for big guilds to dominate spawns anymore. So in the big picture, this will still benefit the smaller guilds, as well as more players, on the whole.

Unless there's a guild which is large enough to simultaneously camp and kill ALL raid targets at the same time as soon as server up (which will mean a guild has to have more than 200 high level players at the same time in order to achieve killing all raid targets at one go).

Hope the devs can give this suggestion some though. It certainly is better than what we have right now in our server.

[tekniq]

@ Xasten: you are very well spoken and well mannered - wish there were more like you in your guild.

@OP: it's just the way p99 revolutionized, coupled with Splorf's statement - there's no way to really change the scene without PVP. Mobilization, numbers, tracking and zerging are specific to p99. It is unfortunate that "satisfying fights" can never been seen on this server where a dragon/god is taken down by few numbers, but you have to learn to adapt if you want loot because you can't really rely on GM intervention.

You have two choices right now:
1. Join TMO - they are getting every target now since VD is more or less out of the raiding scene.
2. Farm some plat and buy your items (if you prefer not to join TMO).

That's about all you can do now.

On the flip side, sooner or later, TMO will max gear their mains/apps/alts to a point where everyone and their lvl 2 alts will have their epics. When that time comes, I'm sure I can see them even putting Inny/CT/Trak on their endangered species list, but until that time comes, you only have 2 options.

[falkun]

Four out of 18 targets is still more than the rest of the server gets on a "normal" spawn. The "little guys" aren't trying to get half the mobs, they are trying to get more than 0.

[Bolero]

Some seem to have missed the nuances of my original post, but this is of course to be expected, and it is beyond my aims to enable such to be able to detect that which they miss.
It is interesting who, representing what, has chosen to be most vociferous in reply, very interesting indeed.
Player based "evidence" should be immaterial if observation actually occurs. Additionally to this it is my understanding that when such evidence has been forthcomming the resulting punishments have been relaxed and/or ignored by the misbehaving parties, and moderators involved.
Futhermore any player generated evidence can with effort always be forged and/or manipulated, these are but two obvious points which need to be made in regards to the formation of player response to misbehaviour.
Other than this i thank the respondents for their time and consideration of the issues i have raised in this post.

[Joroz]

Change the way raid mobs are spawned.

In classic, every patch day and maintenance day resets the raid mobs, thus all of them will spawn at once. As such, its impossible for 1 or 2 guilds to dominate all raid mobs, giving a chance for the smaller guilds to have a go at the leftovers.

wont change a thing, it would happen prime time on weekends and one guild will still take 99% of the mobs.

[Excellio]

This is why I don't want to reach level 50+. Just trying to find a good place to xp at 40 (solo or group) is too much work, so I doubt I'll ever reach level 41, but I will still continue to play my character all the time because it's a fun experience, you know, being in the world of Norrath and interacting with others.

When you're level 25 and some dude KS's your KFC group in South Karana, it's mildly annoying, but it's often a misunderstanding and usually ends up not a big deal. I suppose if you were pulling Quillmane and someone Ks'd you and took the Pegasus Cloak, there might be some hard feelings, but both sides would eventually move on and it wouldn't have a lot of impact on the experience.

But this raiding stuff... Honestly, it doesn't seem fun to me. I get why it's done, for the awesome rewards to be had, but after a certain point, the fighting between guilds over the raids and all of that, it really seems like the actual humans sitting at their computers are no longer having fun.

And in my estimation, the purpose of a computer game is to have fun. When you are playing a game and you realize you're no longer enjoying it, perhaps the situation should be reassessed. I don't mean stop playing. No, I mean just delete your lvl 58 and start a non-twink new character and have fun playing EverQuest.

Oh, and before you delete your lvl 58, you should totally give me any good gear you have. No sense in letting it go to waste.

See you in Norrath!!!

[Zithax]

This server has been around for 2 and a 1/2 years, you are late to the party.

[fischsemmel]

Non-TMO folk JUST want more than 0 raid mobs? I'm not convinced.

They get more than 0 raid mobs right now, after all. Maestro gets socked. Draco pops at an opportune time. TMO loses a race here or there even without VD in the picture. TMO trackers miss a mob spawn. There's the endangered list. Etc. If people just want to kill some raid mobs, then they wouldn't be on the forums posting about how server repops would be better for everyone, especially when there is some evidence (though not necessarily conclusive evidence) that TMO will still dominate raid mobs WITH a full repop.

[Kevlar]

Sorry but the FIF policy would mean the "little" guilds would have their pick of the 17 mobs TMO isn' monopolizing. Server resets would be a good thing and more people would get loot. There would also be more loot to get with extra spawns.

[fischsemmel]

But this raiding stuff... Honestly, it doesn't seem fun to me.

Then don't raid.


I get why it's done, for the awesome rewards to be had,

Looks like you don't get why it's done. Some people might raid just because of the gear, but other people just enjoy it all around. I'm having a blast raiding with TMO, even when I don't get gear, even when we don't have competition, even when we wipe, etc.


but after a certain point, the fighting between guilds over the raids and all of that, it really seems like the actual humans sitting at their computers are no longer having fun.

You're on the outside looking in, dude. 95% (or more) of the people raiding in p99 are raiding because they have fun doing it.


And in my estimation, the purpose of a computer game is to have fun. When you are playing a game and you realize you're no longer enjoying it, perhaps the situation should be reassessed. I don't mean stop playing. No, I mean just delete your lvl 58 and start a non-twink new character and have fun playing EverQuest.

Yes, the purpose of a computer game is to have fun. But again, I AM (and I think most of the rest of us are) having fun.

[Splorf22]

The one time this has happened recently, TMO killed VS, Trak, CT (and draco), Inny (and maestro), Fay, Gore, and all of VP.

That's 14 (out of like 18? unless you count chardok and sky and hole) raid targets, inlcuding the 10+ most valuable ones.

And I guarantee you that if this started happening more often, let alone if these repops were scheduled beforehand, TMO could/would organize in such a way that would get them even more of those targets.


Don't think that I'm talking smack, because I'm not. I'm just pointing out that this whole "20 raid targets up at once is going to mean the little guys kill half of the mobs!" thing is total hogwash. The little guys would have more of a shot of killing something than they do now (short of poopsocking), but server repops will hardly stop 1 or 2 guilds from almost totally dominating the raid scene.

Let's say that the server reboot takes 30 minutes. Taken/Divinity/BDA all send out batphones because 1x/week batphone really isn't so bad :D With 30 minutes people can clean up their RL activities and be ready.

TMO logs in with 70 people (hello new recruiting spree!) and splits their forces Maestro/Inny 20] and VS [15] and Cazic Thule/Draco [35] which are all easy kills and drop nice epic pieces while sending Zeelot to train anyone who dares to enter VP.

Meanwhile VD has logged out their mains at the ledge; they log on and leisurely kill Trakanon. BDA gets Talendor and Taken/Divinity grab Sev.

TMO splits again and port/gates back to DL for Gorenaire, which they get 5 minutes before the other guilds can finish buffing, while logging in precamped alts to get Fay. VD logs on the alt squad to get Vox, TMO logs on the (other) alt squad to get Nagafen (it's funny to me how that level restriction actually makes it harder for casual guilds to kill these dragons on P1999).

Zeelot is still vigorously guarding VP, and TMO now goes to kill those 6 dragons. Everyone else wipes out the epic mobs and goes home.

I think that's pretty reasonable, and by that count, TMO: 14, VD: 2, BDA: 1, Taken/Divinity: 1. In comparison, with the current system it's more like TMO: 17, VD: 1, everyone else, 0. And if Rogean decided to extend no training rules to VP, that count would equalize even more - probably TMO would still go for the Hate/Fear/KC split, which means VD would get Phara Dar and maybe another VP dragon or two. Plus, who knows, maybe Divinity decides to break the script and camp out for Venril . . . .

Anyway I'm just rambling here, but my point is this looks a lot more interesting and equitable than the current system to me.

[Galaa]

Non-TMO folk JUST want more than 0 raid mobs? I'm not convinced.

They get more than 0 raid mobs right now, after all. Maestro gets socked. Draco pops at an opportune time. TMO loses a race here or there even without VD in the picture. TMO trackers miss a mob spawn. There's the endangered list. Etc. If people just want to kill some raid mobs, then they wouldn't be on the forums posting about how server repops would be better for everyone, especially when there is some evidence (though not necessarily conclusive evidence) that TMO will still dominate raid mobs WITH a full repop.

TMO is already dominating now, but with a fixed server repop, at least there's more chance of smaller guilds raiding the mobs before TMO can get there.

Lets say all spawns are up at the same time, and since its a fixed date/timing, the smaller guilds and their allies are already ready and waiting for the server to come up. Even if TMO has the manpower to simultaneously take down 5 or 6 raid mobs at the same time, there's still more than 10+ raid mobs that can be claimed by the smaller guilds when server restarts. And this chance is already better than what it is currently.

As long as there's a server restart which will respawn all raid mobs at exactly the same time, and with the dates and timings known, smaller guilds can plan ahead, form alliances, gather and logout at the zones and wait for the server to come up and claim the spawns. No single guild will be able to raid 10 raid spawns at once. This gives every other guild a chance to get the ones that TMO isnt targetting right at the server up.

The above situation is way better than the current one we have in P99 right now. Anyone can see that.

[Raavak]

You have two choices right now:
1. Join TMO - they are getting every target now since VD is more or less out of the raiding scene.
2. Farm some plat and buy your items (if you prefer not to join TMO).

TMO is already dominating now…

TMO didn't always dominate. IB didn't always dominate. DA didn't always dominate.

Choices 1 & 2 are the easy route, if you just want loot.

Choice 3: Get a bunch of friends together that want to compete, that will track, that will batphone, that will organize a raid in minutes or accept failing until you do. Realize a strategy, execute it, and win. It doesn't happen overnight.

There basically is a vacuum right now. TMO is taking advantage of it by farming everything. But as with all vacuums there's an opportunity present for someone new...

[Splorf22]

TMO is already dominating now, but with a fixed server repop, at least there's more chance of smaller guilds raiding the mobs before TMO can get there.

Lets say all spawns are up at the same time, and since its a fixed date/timing, the smaller guilds and their allies are already ready and waiting for the server to come up. Even if TMO has the manpower to simultaneously take down 5 or 6 raid mobs at the same time, there's still more than 10+ raid mobs that can be claimed by the smaller guilds when server restarts. And this chance is already better than what it is currently.

As long as there's a server restart which will respawn all raid mobs at exactly the same time, and with the dates and timings known, smaller guilds can plan ahead, form alliances, gather and logout at the zones and wait for the server to come up and claim the spawns. No single guild will be able to raid 10 raid spawns at once. This gives every other guild a chance to get the ones that TMO isnt targetting right at the server up.

The above situation is way better than the current one we have in P99 right now. Anyone can see that.

I think you guys are underestimating the changes.

- TMO will buy more chars so they can camp stuff out
- Lots of people who have given up on the raid scene will come back and
- Be zerg recruited by the top guilds so they could go for multiple targets at once.

But anyway, the point is things would get interesting.

[Autotune]

Let's say that the server reboot takes 30 minutes. Taken/Divinity/BDA all send out batphones because 1x/week batphone really isn't so bad :D With 30 minutes people can clean up their RL activities and be ready.

TMO logs in with 70 people (hello new recruiting spree!) and splits their forces Maestro/Inny 20] and VS [15] and Cazic Thule/Draco [35] which are all easy kills and drop nice epic pieces while sending Zeelot to train anyone who dares to enter VP.

Meanwhile VD has logged out their mains at the ledge; they log on and leisurely kill Trakanon. BDA gets Talendor and Taken/Divinity grab Sev.

TMO splits again and port/gates back to DL for Gorenaire, which they get 5 minutes before the other guilds can finish buffing, while logging in precamped alts to get Fay. VD logs on the alt squad to get Vox, TMO logs on the (other) alt squad to get Nagafen (it's funny to me how that level restriction actually makes it harder for casual guilds to kill these dragons on P1999).

Zeelot is still vigorously guarding VP, and TMO now goes to kill those 6 dragons. Everyone else wipes out the epic mobs and goes home.

I think that's pretty reasonable, and by that count, TMO: 14, VD: 2, BDA: 1, Taken/Divinity: 1. In comparison, with the current system it's more like TMO: 17, VD: 1, everyone else, 0. And if Rogean decided to extend no training rules to VP, that count would equalize even more - probably TMO would still go for the Hate/Fear/KC split, which means VD would get Phara Dar and maybe another VP dragon or two. Plus, who knows, maybe Divinity decides to break the script and camp out for Venril . . . .

Anyway I'm just rambling here, but my point is this looks a lot more interesting and equitable than the current system to me.

your entire scenario is off, pretty far off.

TMO wouldn't go for CT off the bat unless they absolutely had to. He is the hardest mob to get to and take down quickly.

Zeelot would be defending VP against who!? himself?

The order TMO would go after raid targets would be more like this.

VS > Inny&Maestro/Fay/Trakanon > CT(draco)/Sev

Everything else wouldn't be that high priority to TMO. They'd probably also manage to kill Gore last after doing vox/naggy with alts.

If you think TMO can't split forces and adjust depending on where guilds mobilize, you're fooling yourself. They will check trackers to see who/what/howmany are in each zone going for what target. This isn't their first rodeo and they have the numbers to split and take down targets like that. They've done it before.

VS will die within seconds of the server coming up, tracker will already know where you guys are moving, after seeing who all and how many they have on, TMO will then split forces and kill Trak, Fay, and inny/maestro at once if they can, or if they have to, contest/compete against a guild going for a target they want.

Also, no way VD gets a force (or anyone for that matter) to ledge and camped prior to a reset without TMO knowing. leisurely kill trakanon? don't make me laugh. That shit will be on lock to keep others out of VP now.

However, if they other guilds were to work together (by deciding who is going to what targets on a reset) they could force TMO to either pick and choose or greatly thin their forces over a wide spread of targets.

[Splorf22]

TMO didn't always dominate. IB didn't always dominate. DA didn't always dominate.

Choices 1 & 2 are the easy route, if you just want loot.

Choice 3: Get a bunch of friends together that want to compete, that will track, that will batphone, that will organize a raid in minutes or accept failing until you do. Realize a strategy, execute it, and win. It doesn't happen overnight.

There basically is a vacuum right now. TMO is taking advantage of it by farming everything. But as with all vacuums there's an opportunity present for someone new...

Because I don't want to spend 80 hours a week getting my pixels? I just don't care that much. This isn't rocket science dude.

And because I know you'll then reply with something along the lines of "if you don't want it, stop whining" let me preemptively reply to your reply with "Why is the server setup so that way?"

[Alarti0001]

Let's say that the server reboot takes 30 minutes. Taken/Divinity/BDA all send out batphones because 1x/week batphone really isn't so bad :D With 30 minutes people can clean up their RL activities and be ready.

TMO logs in with 70 people (hello new recruiting spree!) and splits their forces Maestro/Inny 20] and VS [15] and Cazic Thule/Draco [35] which are all easy kills and drop nice epic pieces while sending Zeelot to train anyone who dares to enter VP.

Meanwhile VD has logged out their mains at the ledge; they log on and leisurely kill Trakanon. BDA gets Talendor and Taken/Divinity grab Sev.

TMO splits again and port/gates back to DL for Gorenaire, which they get 5 minutes before the other guilds can finish buffing, while logging in precamped alts to get Fay. VD logs on the alt squad to get Vox, TMO logs on the (other) alt squad to get Nagafen (it's funny to me how that level restriction actually makes it harder for casual guilds to kill these dragons on P1999).

Zeelot is still vigorously guarding VP, and TMO now goes to kill those 6 dragons. Everyone else wipes out the epic mobs and goes home.

I think that's pretty reasonable, and by that count, TMO: 14, VD: 2, BDA: 1, Taken/Divinity: 1. In comparison, with the current system it's more like TMO: 17, VD: 1, everyone else, 0. And if Rogean decided to extend no training rules to VP, that count would equalize even more - probably TMO would still go for the Hate/Fear/KC split, which means VD would get Phara Dar and maybe another VP dragon or two. Plus, who knows, maybe Divinity decides to break the script and camp out for Venril . . . .

Anyway I'm just rambling here, but my point is this looks a lot more interesting and equitable than the current system to me.

I'm down with repops, strategizing for next kill targets and splitting forces is fun as hell...
Also, zeelot wouldn't need to hang in vp....no one else can kill things there those dragons are safe

[Splorf22]

your entire scenario is off, pretty far off.

TMO wouldn't go for CT off the bat unless they absolutely had to. He is the hardest mob to get to and take down quickly.

Zeelot would be defending VP against who!? himself?

The order TMO would go after raid targets would be more like this.

VS > Inny&Maestro/Fay/Trakanon > CT(draco)/Sev

Everything else wouldn't be that high priority to TMO. They'd probably also manage to kill Gore last after doing vox/naggy with alts.

If you think TMO can't split forces and adjust depending on where guilds mobilize, you're fooling yourself. They will check trackers to see who/what/howmany are in each zone going for what target. This isn't their first rodeo and they have the numbers to split and take down targets like that. They've done it before.

VS will die within seconds of the server coming up, tracker will already know where you guys are moving, after seeing who all and how many they have on, TMO will then split forces and kill Trak, Fay, and inny/maestro at once if they can, or if they have to, contest/compete against a guild going for a target they want.

Also, no way VD gets a force (or anyone for that matter) to ledge and camped prior to a reset without TMO knowing. leisurely kill trakanon? don't make me laugh. That shit will be on lock to keep others out of VP now.

However, if they other guilds were to work together (by deciding who is going to what targets on a reset) they could force TMO to either pick and choose or greatly thin their forces over a wide spread of targets.

Well in my scenario Zeelot is defending against your hated enemy VD, who absolutely has enough keyed members to take down Phara Dar.

Anyway, my point is that I think if the reboot time was known in advance, after a few rounds the smaller guilds would be taking something like 4-6 targets every reboot.

[Autotune]

Well in my scenario Zeelot is defending against your hated enemy VD, who absolutely has enough keyed members to take down Phara Dar.

Anyway, my point is that I think if the reboot time was known in advance, after a few rounds the smaller guilds would be taking something like 4-6 targets every reboot.

Who is leading VD in VP? Most of VD's quality raiders have all left, I don't see it happening.

VD isn't just going to snag their 24 left over keyed members, walk into VP and leisurely pull Phara Dar lol. If you haven't heard, TMO made it a nightmare for VD to even walk around in VP, much less test pulling techniques and camp spots.

You are, by far, overestimating every part of your scenario.

[AenarieFenninRo]

FYI, i'm wordy, and fully expect reactions of TL;DR, but to the OP, hope this helps you in some way to understand more about the top end raid scene, and why it is how it currently is. Efforts are underway to help change this by my guild and others' guilds, but it takes a long time to get away from the poison that has been present for so long.

First, an introduction...

Hello all, i am a new player to the server and have enjoyed my time playing P99 but upon entering the "High End" game have experienced some very worrying behaviour.


Welcome aboard, always nice to see a new face!


But (you know one was coming)...
A certain Guild on this server will if allowed to continue in their behaviour ruin the efforts of all by repeatedly ignoring any adherrance to the Play Nice Policies supposedly enforced throughout the server.

Here comes what i believe is genuine constructive critticism (no flame):
Would it be possible when a Major High End encounter ensues for GMs/Guides etc... to invisibly observe behaviour ?


As you didn't post names, or what the situation was, its hard to determine which play nice policies you believe were breached. I know you did not post this information in an effort to keep this civil and not be a flame post, but it also hinders anyone's ability to determine what the situation was, and what you believe was against the play nice policies.

In an effort of full disclosure here, I am a member of TMO, we often get blamed for things. You gotta have a thick skin when you're one of, if not the top end guild. Its also why we must be vigilant in defending our name and why so many of us often post on threads like this. It is not a response to a feeling of guilt, it is simply a response. After all, as you pointed out, you're not naming names or the specific situation.

Sometimes one person (not everyone) in "guild A" complains in their Ventrilo or guild chat about their perception of an issue of what TMO did, which will of course mean that their whole guild now thinks TMO is doing something wrong. Its possible they are 100% correct, but more often, rose colored glasses are applied for what they believe was done wrong. I know this, because in the past it has happened to us, and the situation was reversed where we were the ones complaining about what was done.

If our guild is able to get to the target mob first (not trash around it), and engage it, we've been accused of things such as leapfrogging for instance. We have also accused others of the same act. Some of the top end guilds have thrown javelins at mobs when they only have one person in zone as a raid target is being engaged in an attempt to claim "First to Engage" when their raid forces have not been present. I have no doubt, we've also attempted this maneuver.

I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, just saying that this type of thing has and does happen in the top end raid scene.

Keep in mind though, that racing for a mob is just that, a race. If you or your guild engages first, good for you... our standard policy is to not touch a single mob at that point until whomever engaged first has either wiped or won the encounter. If that means we camp out to avoid adds beating on us, we do that. We are not in the habit of helping others prevent their own demise allowing them to win an encounter by cleaning up a mess they created for themselves. If they did not clear a path to the raid target before blindly rushing there to get FTE and trained themselves, we will likely stand and watch them die. This isn't because we dont like them, but if we as a guild are after a target, there is a reason we're after it, and thus helping another guild get it prevents us from doing so. Often after we kill the target, we help the other guild by rezing their folks along with our own. Its not animosity we hold toward them, it is our desire to make the kill.

As to your comment about GMs watching, this has been done many times in the past by Amelinda and others, in addition the upper end guilds have sent GMs petitions with their fraps and screenshots of the situations as well in an effort to show the situations encountered. The GMs are not there at every high end encounter, but they're there at many of them just invisible. Just because you cannot do a /who GM in the zone you're in, does not mean they are not there watching ;)


If this were implemented, and the bad apples removed i would expect a greater enjoyment for the rest as a whole, and the declining of negative press which i am sure will or has already started to circulate concerning the P99 Project upon various other boards and MMO review websites to cease (or not start at all, hopefully).

I realize the Admin staff have a lot to do, but such bad behaviour is so rampant and frequent that even a newcommer such as myself is considering "what is the point to all of this if a few people act so immaturely ?"

I hear many people from many guilds have either quit, or are taking a break, solely because of this bad behaviour by some. Sooner or later, all who will be left will be the bad apples, and if i may continue the metaphor for a minute, who could stomache such a dish ?


I dont read a lot of other forums about what is going on over here, because I believe they likely present a skewed view by people who have either never played here, or due to their own issues no longer play here. There has been a bit of an exodus lately due to lack of new content, along with people complaining about unfair treatment by GMs etc. While the new content issue is true, some is people being a bit shall we say "unhappy" with not getting their way. I point no fingers when i say this, it is just a simple fact of life, if people dont like something they often dont continue to do it.

GMs have asked time and time again, "where's your evidence" and we have had to become cyber sleuths evidence horders, and constantly frapsing everything in TMO and in the other top end guilds along with being a premier raiding guild. When the evidence is presented, its not always looked at immediately, there have been complaints by people about it taking too long to get answers, or rectify some "wrong doing". People have left over this type of thing, claiming GM favoritism of TMO or "guild X", but the GMs are volunteers and not paid for their time, yet people expect them to be beholden to "working" on the server 24/7/365.

We as a guild were even raid suspended for a week due to our "wrong doings" from a situation that had happened a month previous. We then presented our own evidence of the same situation, and a few days later the evidence we provided was reviewed, and our suspension was lifted. There was no apology of a mistake, and in fact we were told we "likely deserved it for something else anyway", and not to discuss that we were unsuspended until after it happened at midnight.

We followed what we were told by the GM, and surprised the heck out of another guild when we were killing mobs again at 12:01 AM. This resulted in claims of GM favoritism, secret handshakes, and that we had sacrificed a goat to the god Horace to get our suspension lifted. There's even a fraps out there, of someone saying in their guild chat that we were all of a sudden breaking the rules, but that "TMO gives 0 fuks" about following the rules. The simple fact was, it took time for the GM to review the evidence, but it was SOLID evidence.

As in all things, take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt, and learn to read between the lines. Ask people here what they think about the raid scne before with several top guilds, and how it is now, and evaluate for yourself before taking what someone else says as gospel is my view.

[Autotune]

There's even a fraps out there, of someone saying in their guild chat that we were all of a sudden breaking the rules, but that "TMO gives 0 fuks" about following the rules.

How I do miss Relapsee :(

[Jimes]

Choice 3: Get a bunch of friends together that want to compete, that will track, that will batphone, that will organize a raid in minutes or accept failing until you do. Realize a strategy, execute it, and win. It doesn't happen overnight.

That requires effort. These peasants want handouts.


Because I don't want to spend 80 hours a week getting my pixels?

www.worldofwarcraft.com

[Sithel1988]

ive been playing for like a year, and have so many alts that ive never even made it to lvl 15. it is my belief that there is a small population on this server that is like me haha. im scared of the high end :O

[Autotune]

ive been playing for like a year, and have so many alts that ive never even made it to lvl 15. it is my belief that there is a small population on this server that is like me haha. im scared of the high end :O

idk why. There honestly isn't a better time to form up a decent raiding guild.

[Sithel1988]

dont have much time to play. trying to find a job :(

[fadetree]

You know, I spent some time on one of the TLP Servers. They 'solve' this problem by enforcing a rotation. Your guild has to reach some qualifying level, ie., killing mob x, to qualify for the rotation. Then each guild is assigned a kill window on certain mobs on a certain range of time. If you kill your mob in the kill window ( within 7 hours of spawn, for example ) great. If not, its FFA. Offending guilds lose their rotation spots to the guild they KS'd.

Plenty of problems there too, but it seemed to work better than not having it. I don't know if the server admins here are willing to put up with the hassles though, but maybe...just MAYBE...if we all try really hard...maybe we could set it up and run it ourselves. Sort of a more formal version of what TMO is doing for the endangered list.

We could have a couple of 'tiers' :
1. Noob tier - low qualifier, ie., you have to actually have a guild and have killed (something larger than a gras snake), vox and naggy and the like on the list.
2. Midrange - qualifier : killed all noob tier targets. Kunark dragons, some epic fights maybe, etc.
3. Pro - qualifier : killed all midrange targets. Vp dragons, etc.

[Autotune]

You know, I spent some time on one of the TLP Servers. They 'solve' this problem by enforcing a rotation. Your guild has to reach some qualifying level, ie., killing mob x, to qualify for the rotation. Then each guild is assigned a kill window on certain mobs on a certain range of time. If you kill your mob in the kill window ( within 7 hours of spawn, for example ) great. If not, its FFA.

Plenty of problems there too, but it seemed to work better than not having it. I don't know if the server admins here are willing to put up with the hassles though, but maybe...just MAYBE...if we all try really hard...maybe we could set it up and run it ourselves. Sort of a more formal version of what TMO is doing for the endangered list.

Rotation is so lame. Might as well just instance everything.

[Joroz]

The answer to this thread is obviously "you don't want it enough"... the format of this server allows people with no jobs and nothing going on in real life to triumph in a little corner of the Internet. If you want raid mobs, quit your job or get fired and sit at your computer waiting for stuff to spawn. Not saying everyone is in this situation but the best guilds will be the ones with the highest amount of jobless and people that are anti-social in real life.

[fadetree]

...futility is lame.

I mean, since we *can* do a rotation, and we *can't* instance everything.

[AenarieFenninRo]

You know, I spent some time on one of the TLP Servers. They 'solve' this problem by enforcing a rotation. Your guild has to reach some qualifying level, ie., killing mob x, to qualify for the rotation. Then each guild is assigned a kill window on certain mobs on a certain range of time. If you kill your mob in the kill window ( within 7 hours of spawn, for example ) great. If not, its FFA. Offending guilds lose their rotation spots to the guild they KS'd.

Plenty of problems there too, but it seemed to work better than not having it. I don't know if the server admins here are willing to put up with the hassles though, but maybe...just MAYBE...if we all try really hard...maybe we could set it up and run it ourselves. Sort of a more formal version of what TMO is doing for the endangered list.

Although i'm not 100% against the idea, there is no "logic" behind why TMO would agree to this. If they're getting all the mobs now, why would they voluntarily offer to give up on all the loots that our toons still need? We have voluntarily given up several mobs over the last couple weeks, and will likely continue to do so because we get no significant loot off of them that we cant wait one extra week for. Trakanon / VS and others that drop epic pieces are a different story though.

When agreement was made on the rotation of Trakanon a few months ago, it was a 50/50 toss up if they would get Trak anyway, so implementing a rotation was logical. It didn't change how often we got the mob as opposed to IB, it simply made it so we didn't have to rush every time to be there.

VD a while back suggested to keep this going, and we said to "prove themselves", after that the trak spawns went something like 8 for TMO, 2 for VD... that was not a "toss up" that was a "we're likely to win most, and only miss out on a couple" so we again had no reason to agree to a rotation.

[fadetree]

There's no reason that involves 'you still get all the loot', thats true. If that's your only motivation for action then I guess you wouldn't agree to it. Now, if the server admins got involved to the point of BACKING the rotation with enforcement via temp bans, that would give you a pro reason to co-operate. I doubt that'll happen, and I'm not advocating it necessarily, but it would have an effect.

I was counting on maybe folks would just do it because there's more to the game than loot. Er..wait. Is there?

[sanluen]

This all comes down to how people want to play.

We are all playing on a server with too many raiders for the amount of loot. Either be patient or be competitive.

If you want to be competitive then you need a large enough (and dedicated) guild that can field a raid at any time of day. If you don't/can't there are enough others that someone will. TMO is not the first guild that has done this (and probably won't be the last). They could easily be competed with if people wanted to put the same amount of effort, but instead they look for ways to make the server adapt to their playstyle. As a side note, variance is not what created this. Without variance you just need to sit at the spawn point longer than your competition. You still need the same resources.

If you want to play more casually or have time constraints, then play smart and use your resources wisely. Sure, it is frustrating (like the last 3-4 weeks) when everything spawns late night or during working hours, but keep at it and you get kills over time.

If all I wanted to do was be attempt NPC encounters with small groups of friends, I would play a different game or on my own emulated server.

Also, I am not trying to call out the OP or anyone else. Sure, there is plenty of drama in the high end raid scene. Has been since the beginning. Either find a way to compete or look for something else to do, there is plenty of high-end loot that is equal to or better than dragon loot that is easily attainable by casual-style guilds.

[Jimes]

The answer to this thread is obviously "you don't want it enough"... the format of this server allows people with no jobs and nothing going on in real life to triumph in a little corner of the Internet.

Yes, that's it. Having players from many different time zones and others who are willing to wake up in the middle of the night to kill things has nothing to do with it.

Can't win at decade old video game -> call those that do losers. lol.

[Autotune]

There's no reason that involves 'you still get all the loot', thats true. If that's your only motivation for action then I guess you wouldn't agree to it. Now, if the server admins got involved to the point of BACKING the rotation with enforcement via temp bans, that would give you a pro reason to co-operate. I doubt that'll happen, and I'm not advocating it necessarily, but it would have an effect.

I was counting on maybe folks would just do it because there's more to the game than loot. Er..wait. Is there?

if there was more to EQ than loot, people wouldn't complain about the end game raiding i suppose.

[Alarti0001]

Although i'm not 100% against the idea, there is no "logic" behind why TMO would agree to this. If they're getting all the mobs now, why would they voluntarily offer to give up on all the loots that our toons still need? We have voluntarily given up several mobs over the last couple weeks, and will likely continue to do so because we get no significant loot off of them that we cant wait one extra week for. Trakanon / VS and others that drop epic pieces are a different story though.

When agreement was made on the rotation of Trakanon a few months ago, it was a 50/50 toss up if they would get Trak anyway, so implementing a rotation was logical. It didn't change how often we got the mob as opposed to IB, it simply made it so we didn't have to rush every time to be there.

VD a while back suggested to keep this going, and we said to "prove themselves", after that the trak spawns went something like 8 for TMO, 2 for VD... that was not a "toss up" that was a "we're likely to win most, and only miss out on a couple" so we again had no reason to agree to a rotation.




Well zeelot has said we will be letting more than one mob up in the near future. I think this is fair magnanimous considering you are still free to compete on any target you want I.e. fay, maestro etc.
Vs I can see as a free target soon, even trak too however, I doubt that will happen before we sell our bard epic MQ.


So if you want trak pool your cash and buy your fav guild bard their epic!

[Alarti0001]

if there was more to EQ than loot, people wouldn't complain about the end game raiding i suppose.

Velious is the panacea...I mean vindi is like an 8 hour spawn right?

[Excellio]

Looks like you don't get why it's done. Some people might raid just because of the gear, but other people just enjoy it all around. I'm having a blast raiding with TMO, even when I don't get gear, even when we don't have competition, even when we wipe, etc.

I guess that makes sense. If you're enjoying the experience, then I suppose you'd be foolish if you didn't do it.

I just don't care for the trouble and arguments generated by disputes over raids and looting raid-related stuff. It seems like some players take the game far too seriously. On the flip side, I suppose I don't take it seriously enough, considering I have a total /played of almost 19 days, yet I'm only about halfway through level 40.

I spend most of my time PLing lowbies and showing new players the ropes. I do a lot of ports (as a druid), but I spend prettymuch all of the income from my ports buying gear to give to a needy new player that I randomly encounter.

But you seem to have a better grasp on the raiding stuff, and the fact that you can enjoy the experience with your guild even when it goes horribly awry speaks to your sensible approach to the game.

Like I said, some people take the game far too seriously. On Live, I lost a corpse equipped with all of the best gear I could round up because I kept dying while trying to retrieve it. It was such a frustrating experience that it made me never want to venture into any place where I could not ready retrieve my corpse if I had to. And it also made me quit playing my Mage and switch to a Druid so I could easily get around the world to help other players and what not.

That's what makes EQ so great. You and I are playing the same game, but we play it in totally different ways, and still, we both enjoy the heck out of our time playing this game.

Oh, and send me a tell if ya ever need a port/bind/buff/Blade of Xalgoz.

[tekniq]

This is kinda irrelevant to OP, but..
@ TMO: I'm sure you guys are pretty bored now right considering you can just take your time to kill any targets. Most of you relish not for loot, but for competition, so why don't you guys create competition amongst yourselves. Have some kind of draft amongst your own players and split the guild up in two for a little bit and race each other. That would be funny.

[Asher]

While I understand that many do not like rotations, I am hoping that when Red99 finally dies they consider duplicating p99 and having forced rotations.

I understand it would be hard to police but I am sure there are some people, guild leadership maybe that would be happy to manage it and make something work.

Red99 is obviously dead. I think it is very kind of TMO to do the endangered list so that not all guilds need to give up their lives to get some dragon loot.

I would happily reroll and relocate to a forced rotation p99 server.

/dream off

Asher

[Autotune]

This is kinda irrelevant to OP, but..
@ TMO: I'm sure you guys are pretty bored now right considering you can just take your time to kill any targets. Most of you relish not for loot, but for competition, so why don't you guys create competition amongst yourselves. Have some kind of draft amongst your own players and split the guild up in two for a little bit and race each other. That would be funny.

has already been discussed lol

[Grozmok]

I'm not going to jump on the Hate #1 Guild bandwagon, but I do think it's hella funny that TMO is the first to hop into the thread and get defensive.

<3

poor sportsmanship is limited to a number of individuals on each side

As a community, we should call them out specifically, de-guild them and ostracize them. There is no place for them to go.

Either they play nice or go the way of red 99.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I'm not going to jump on the Hate #1 Guild bandwagon, but I do think it's hella funny that TMO is the first to hop into the thread and get defensive.



Yah.. I don't think they want maint. day because no matter what they say it is more difficult to kill 18+ raid targets at once before competition than socking / batphoning raid targets as they spawn with variance.


Sure they may still get the majority of raid targets.. I have no idea how large their guild is.. but others would get some also.. which is more than what is currently happening (aside from their charity).

and come velious even their guild wouldn't be able to kill every raid target on a maint day.

[Autotune]

Yah.. I don't think they want maint. day because no matter what they say it is more difficult to kill 18+ raid targets at once before competition than socking / batphoning raid targets as they spawn with variance.


Sure they may still get the majority of raid targets.. I have no idea how large their guild is.. but others would get some also.. which is more than what is currently happening (aside from their charity).

and come velious even their guild wouldn't be able to kill every raid target on a maint day.

we were larger than IB and larger than VD and usually had as much or slightly less than both when competed against them combined.

Now that IB is gone and VD has taken a step back, TMO has grown even larger. Take a moment to let that set. Some members that stopped playing due to whatever reasons decided to come back when the street got easy and TMO has also recruited heavily even after it wasn't really needed. TMO now is looking forward to destroying any competition in Kunark and for Velious.

I don't know why anyone would not want patch day respawns, it would be the only fun "event" left on all of p99.

[Akim]

the PVP server is here buddy.

[Flunklesnarkin]

the PVP server is here buddy.

full of 13 year olds who think spamming porn gif's is edgy >_>


copied from the "about this server link"


Project 1999 started development in 2008, and was released in October of 2009. The mission of the project is to create the classic feeling that many had during the early days of Everquest during those time periods, starting with Classic content and releasing the other expansions and content on a similar timeline that was experienced on Live. The server will stop at Velious, at which point many options will be considered, including possible custom content that will maintain the spirit of the game, and/or an additional new server starting over at Pre-Kunark.


custom content could be something like a revamped jaggedpine zone or other zones that already connect to classic zones possibly. No point really worrying about what their plans are post velioius atm though as velious hasn't even arrived yet.

[Grozmok]

the PVP server is here buddy.

I guess so, I've been seeing a lot more players use the, 'bro' word the last few days.

:)

[Frieza_Prexus]

As a community, we should call them out specifically, de-guild them and ostracize them. There is no place for them to go.


I think this is done for the most part. There's been a few notable exceptions here and there, but most guilds are willing to I'd think. As I said earlier, aside from general trolling which can typically be safely ignored, most guilds will take action when presented with strong evidence or proof of a member's misdeeds.

Yah.. I don't think they want maint. day

It is my impression that TMO, as a whole, strongly supports patch day spawns. They are extremely fun, and it becomes more about skill than socking/tracking. Right now mobs are dominated by trackers. When you're racing, a single wipe or messed up pull costs you time which loses mobs.

It really sucks when you miss a patch day, I think perhaps leaving spawn times as they are and putting in a random repop once every 2-3 weeks as a supplement would be the most balanced solution.

We're a bit derailed towards an end game discussion at the moment. @ the OP: Your earlier fear about out-and-out exploiting is mostly unfounded. In my opinion. The GMs have access to extremely detailed logs and they do watch on a regular basis. I'm going to be a bit presumptuous here, but I suspect you are mentioning the controversy over our pull methods inside of VP. If you check my post history, you will find a detailed discussion addressing these exact concerns.

In the end, actual exploiting is very easy to prove if it happens. The GMs can, and eventually, will catch you. What I suspect has you worried (TMO in VP) isn't a discussion so much about exploiting, but a confusion of terms. The word "exploit" was used to describe our behavior, but it was later clarified and repudiated by the server staff. I think a more appropriate way to say would be that the server staff felt we were trivializing the content (an assertion with which we respectfully disagreed). Exploiting is a wrong, trivialization is a no-fault problem.

Again, if you'd like a more detailed analysis (along with me nearly losing my patience with a particular someone a few times), I would direct you here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68671

If this is not what had you concerned, then feel free to ignore it.

As for this:

but I do think it's hella funny that TMO is the first to hop into the thread and get defensive.

Perhaps, but I am sure you can see how we drew the conclusion that this was likely directed at us. If our goal is to improve and maintain a good reputation, why wouldn't we join a discussion where our relationship is on the line? It's decision theory 101. The only logical choice it seems is to advocate for ourselves in a situation where we would benefit from it.

[Splorf22]

I'm tired of having the same old argument about whether it not it takes huge amounts of skill to poopsock and batphone.

The point is: patch day is classic.

[Alarti0001]

and come velious even their guild wouldn't be able to kill every raid target on a maint day.

I would think by the time velious came out every member would have all the loot they need from everything thru kunark, that we wouldn't even bother with older content, and if competition is how it is today I don't see us losing very much in velious. Maybe some lodizals and that water dragon whose name escapes me, wuoshi, velk, or vindi. Definitely not all of those maybe 1 or 2 from that list. Although velious might bring a revival cause another raid guild to form, or a current one to expand, who knows

[Harrison]

Absolutely nothing is going to be done with any problems at the end-game.

It's been shitted up for years now. The last ditch efforts to end poopsocking, etc. were long ago abandoned.

[Grozmok]

I'll be interested to see if Velious turns out to be the panacea people here tend to think it is.

:)

[fischsemmel]

If you want to be competitive then you need a large enough (and dedicated) guild that can field a raid at any time of day. If you don't/can't there are enough others that someone will. TMO is not the first guild that has done this (and probably won't be the last). They could easily be competed with if people wanted to put the same amount of effort, but instead they look for ways to make the server adapt to their playstyle.

This * 1000.

[Slayde]

Funny how history repeats itself. So many of these threads have come and gone. First about IB, then about DA, now about TMO. Wonder who will be next? You? Not if you don't try harder than you have been. I play Everquest because nothing is handed to me, I think a lot of other players share in that. So it surely isn't going to start happening now.

[Bolero]

The argument of "might is right" still seems alive and well (Poor Socrates must be crying in his beer right now). These games can be more than the sum of their parts, but for some i guess the most obvious logic wins... At their best these games are more than a system and if this is accepted require more than mere system to flourish.
Honour and fairness seems to be foreign words these days. The "drive-by spitters" (my term for those who behave worse than animals when possessing the anonymity the net affords) seem to be sadly the norm. Its ultimately a question of conscience and if some people willfully train etc... to impede another's attempt and that satisfies their conscience then i guess i must have a different definition of the word.
A famous psychiatrist once said to me, "people don't change" i always argued contrary to this point, otherwise we are all almost certainly doomed if she was right. Reading these posts, the attitudes, assumptions and lies i am beginning to wonder... Maybe Callicles was right. I do hope not.

[Frieza_Prexus]

these games can be more than the sum of their parts, but for some i guess the most obvious logic wins... At their best these games are more than a system and if this is accepted require more than mere system to flourish.
Honour and fairness seems to be foreign words these days. The "drive-by spitters" ...seem to be sadly the norm. Its ultimately a question of conscience and if some people willfully train etc... to impede another's attempt and that satisfies their conscience then i guess i must have a different definition of the word.

It seems to me that you're concerned about a single guild monopolizing content (might makes right), and that rules are being broken while they're at it (spitters). However, you're not providing specifics. You're invoking honor, fairness, morality, and conscience, but you're not telling us exactly how these issues are coming up. Despite that, I'll try to give another point of view.

Concerning the strongest guilds getting most kills: Guilds are organizations that are (generally) created to advance interests of their members. Think of it like a corporation where the objective is to maximize shareholder wealth. If you suggest that guilds should have another objective, I counter that that is an untenable and unrealistic position. This type of organization has an inherent nature that you cannot change.

That said, I agree with you that there are lines that should not be crossed. (See generally: rule breaking, training, ksing, etc.) We are again, however, in dire need of specifics.

I sense that you want a productive discussion to ameliorate your concerns, but unless we get to something thicker than platonic constructs and general lamentations, I suspect nothing will come of it.

[Arteker]

Change the way raid mobs are spawned.

In classic, every patch day and maintenance day resets the raid mobs, thus all of them will spawn at once. As such, its impossible for 1 or 2 guilds to dominate all raid mobs, giving a chance for the smaller guilds to have a go at the leftovers.

The devs could implement something like this, set a "maintenance day" to reset all mobs, so that no guild can dominate all mobs like it is currently. Its more classic too, since live servers resets often (one a week IIRC)

The situation now is that certain guild is farming all raid mobs, and this will not be good for the server at all. I hope the devs can see some sense in this.



u quite wrong , that kind of things made the euro guilds stomp and rape the us based guild due to those events happening mostlly on their time frame.

[Flunklesnarkin]

u quite wrong , that kind of things made the euro guilds stomp and rape the us based guild due to those events happening mostlly on their time frame.

thats why i suggested changing the "maint reset time" each week.


could always move the reset time 2 or 3 hours later in the day from the last maint reset.. that way respawns are always rotating through every time zone.


like say the previous reset was at 1 PM.. the next weeks reset would be at 3 PM.. and so on.

[Arteker]

I'll be interested to see if Velious turns out to be the panacea people here tend to think it is.

:)


Its very hard to a guild to monopolize velious .unless they want realy and pull over 75+ well geared and dedicated players and still can lost.


why velious desire.



lets have a example .

(using a universe where velious allready is in).

TMO: the order go for ntov.
Taken: farms HOT and try to snipe some good dozekar items .
VD: they entangled to clean pog
BDA: get vindi , dain , velks or some of the lesser wing dragons



at this point u have free most of kunark stuf, u want gear because big ones taking velious? u got vs ,trak , sky, kunark outdoor dragons and if ud are to get enough people always can try vp for some toys.


A small familiar guild want to kill some dragons with their 10 15 20 members? western wastes is ur friends dragons and talismans everywhere .


oh shit we 50 and clearing hate or fear and ct inny pop . go for it they get very nice stuf once velious come in.


xp factor: velketor seems would help people to lvl eaier from 55 to 60 since most people here rather stick to kc than go hs sebs .

new chardok revamp: nice shit from this .


Epic mobs are not uber camped, MOA epics without popsocks or races.



DEF velious should help alot

[Flunklesnarkin]

Unless they have like 300+ people in their guild online they would have a hard time locking down everything in velious on a maint day respawn..


let alone kunark stuff

[Alarti0001]

Unless they have like 300+ people in their guild online they would have a hard time locking down everything in velious on a maint day respawn..


let alone kunark stuff

i agree however 300 is a bit much.... if the current raid climate persists we wont have anything close to competition so we would just snipe the easy mobs first since no one else would be killing yeli tormie aow sont etc etc.... kinda like what we do with vp now

[Deverell]

The only serious problem with Everquest is that raid content isn't instanced while PvP is too terribly designed for most people to want it. If raids had been instanced, or if the PvP had been good enough that more than 5% of the population would touch it with a 10ft pole, it would have been great. I sometimes think to myself that this is the one thing where I wouldn't mind P99 deviating from classic. Making the top raid zone instanced would fix so much, make the endgame so much more playable for everyone, and basically wouldn't cost anything. This would be just for VP and for ToV/ST, of course.

[Autotune]

The only serious problem with Everquest is that raid content isn't instanced while PvP is too terribly designed for most people to want it. If raids had been instanced, or if the PvP had been good enough that more than 5% of the population would touch it with a 10ft pole, it would have been great. I sometimes think to myself that this is the one thing where I wouldn't mind P99 deviating from classic. Making the top raid zone instanced would fix so much, make the endgame so much more playable for everyone, and basically wouldn't cost anything. This would be just for VP and for ToV/ST, of course.

TMO has VP instanced already...

[Ikonoclastia]

The only serious problem with Everquest is that raid content isn't instanced while PvP is too terribly designed for most people to want it. If raids had been instanced, or if the PvP had been good enough that more than 5% of the population would touch it with a 10ft pole, it would have been great. I sometimes think to myself that this is the one thing where I wouldn't mind P99 deviating from classic. Making the top raid zone instanced would fix so much, make the endgame so much more playable for everyone, and basically wouldn't cost anything. This would be just for VP and for ToV/ST, of course.
Yeah NO. The reason they made a P1999 was so we could play P1999 without instancing garbage + the rest of the bullcrap they added.

If you want to get your fair share of mobs then I think you need to suggest a P1999 era solution or get more serious about getting your mobs.

[Splorf22]

It is my impression that TMO, as a whole, strongly supports patch day spawns. They are extremely fun, and it becomes more about skill than socking/tracking. Right now mobs are dominated by trackers. When you're racing, a single wipe or messed up pull costs you time which loses mobs.

Wait, if TMO wants patch day spawns, all the smaller guilds want patch day spawns, and its classic . . . why hasn't this happened yet?

[Flunklesnarkin]

Wait, if TMO wants patch day spawns, all the smaller guilds want patch day spawns, and its classic . . . why hasn't this happened yet?

idk.. i suspect its more difficult than just tossing the power switch on the server but who knows.. maybe it is that simple.

[Gwence]

SPOILER ALERT (http://imgur.com/9ZcFE.jpeg)


DO NOT READ IT MAY RUIN YOUR FUN

[Shiftin]

I think this is done for the most part. There's been a few notable exceptions here and there, but most guilds are willing to I'd think. As I said earlier, aside from general trolling which can typically be safely ignored, most guilds will take action when presented with strong evidence or proof of a member's misdeeds.

This is pretty hilarious considering your guildleader has personally broken more raid rules than any person playing on this server and it's not even close. Revisionist history FTW!

Anyway, to the OP:

Simulated patch days have been brought up every few months since i started playing here. The case has been made ad nauseum. It would be more classic both in feel and actuality. It would be better for the community because smaller guilds would get a legitimate shot at raid mobs at least once a week, even if it was a fraction of what the big guys at the top get. It would slow down burnout of the raiders because there would be days off from tracking due to naturally occurring days with nothing in window.

It's all been said before, directly to them, in person and over the forums.

If simulated maintenance days wouldn't happen when there was active support from the project admins, they sure aren't happening now that those guys are absentee and splitting focus. It would require actual programming work by rogean or a manual tedious repop or each mob/zone. GL getting that kind of attention with 1.2 out last week.

[Gwence]

oh shit 1.2 is out, damn I should log in for a like 2 hours and beat the new op on nightmare, wonder what my new title would be.

[Deverell]

Yeah NO. The reason they made a P1999 was so we could play P1999 without instancing garbage + the rest of the bullcrap they added.

If you want to get your fair share of mobs then I think you need to suggest a P1999 era solution or get more serious about getting your mobs.

It's not about getting the mobs, it's about the fact that there simply aren't enough. Not only does this lead to tidal waves of drama, which can be lived with, but it simply excludes a shitload of people. There isn't enough raid content in Everquest for a top-heavy server. The dash for raid mobs that some people like does not out-weigh the fact that only 20% of the population can really raid at all because there just isn't any more content than that. I didn't demand instancing, I just said it was the one custom feature I wouldn't mind. I'm not a raider, but that's not because I don't like to raid, it's because I don't want to associate with the type of people who tend to populate this server's raid scene due to the nature of it.

[Ikonoclastia]

It's not about getting the mobs, it's about the fact that there simply aren't enough. Not only does this lead to tidal waves of drama, which can be lived with, but it simply excludes a shitload of people. There isn't enough raid content in Everquest for a top-heavy server. The dash for raid mobs that some people like does not out-weigh the fact that only 20% of the population can really raid at all because there just isn't any more content than that. I didn't demand instancing, I just said it was the one custom feature I wouldn't mind. I'm not a raider, but that's not because I don't like to raid, it's because I don't want to associate with the type of people who tend to populate this server's raid scene due to the nature of it.
The spawn variance thing is probably a well intentioned really bad idea. On a classic mob with a proper spawn timer you could arrange for your guild to be on at a certain time prior and you could beat competition by arriving earlier if you were desperate enough. With this variance thing of 24-48 hours its impossible to arrive earlier unless your willing to sit there for 48 hours max, which means it then becomes a sit your tracker, mobilize the raid when it spawns thing and the winner is always going to be the biggest guild because they can mobilize the quickest and kill with the least amount of people.

[Deverell]

I think a change will become especially important in Velious. Raiding isn't that great in Kunark, and you can be really well geared without ever doing anything more demanding than PoH/PoF trash clears for your planar set, but Velious is the expansion that raiders really care for because the raid content there is the best ever in the history of the game. It's also the point where Everquest changes so that you can't be well-geared without raiding. If, by then, the server still has a population that could fill 5+ raid guilds, I think that'll be the time to look into ways of accomodating more people. Velious is pretty underwhelming if you can't raid, but Kunark is fine because Sebilis, Charasis, Chardok and epics are really the high points of that expansion. Who will be satisfied with Velks and Siren's Grotto? Velious is the raid expansion, and excluding all but the top two guilds then would be a mistake.

[Flunklesnarkin]

There is also plenty of quests to do for non raiders ;p

[falkun]

sit there for 48 hours max

Try 96 hours, its +/-48hrs, so 48 hours on either side of exactly 7 days.

Visually, it looks like this:

+----------|----+----|
kill............5D....7D....9D
...............entire window

On Live, the mob would spawn at the plus sign* ( + ), here the mob can spawn anywhere between the pipes ( | ). Each dash ( - ) represents 12 hours. From this visual representation, you can see that a 7-day mob is "in window" (able to spawn) for ~44% of the 9-day "must spawn" window.

*Barring patches/server restarts, you could show up 7-days later like clockwork and kill the thing again.

[Kevlar]

I think a change will become especially important in Velious. Raiding isn't that great in Kunark, and you can be really well geared without ever doing anything more demanding than PoH/PoF trash clears for your planar set, but Velious is the expansion that raiders really care for because the raid content there is the best ever in the history of the game. It's also the point where Everquest changes so that you can't be well-geared without raiding. If, by then, the server still has a population that could fill 5+ raid guilds, I think that'll be the time to look into ways of accomodating more people. Velious is pretty underwhelming if you can't raid, but Kunark is fine because Sebilis, Charasis, Chardok and epics are really the high points of that expansion. Who will be satisfied with Velks and Siren's Grotto? Velious is the raid expansion, and excluding all but the top two guilds then would be a mistake.

You can get your armor sets in velious clearing trash in kael arena or NTOV though. Its even easier than original to get decently geared. Granted the loots are a lot better off the bosses, but you still need to farm gear sets to be able to kill the bosses. Well, except for the zerg guilds.

[falkun]

Skyshrine (dragon) armor is out of the Halls of Testing (ToV - East Wing). Kael (giant) armor looks like it can drop in NToV and West Wing, at least according to Allah's archived page (http://web.archive.org/web/20010801152459/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/equipment/veliousarmour.html). However, the Live version of the page lists ToV - West Wing as the location for Kael armor drops. And you do not need NToV (or any of ToV) for the gems for turn-ins.

I think the greatest thing I'm looking forward to about Velious raiding is the 32kHP cap gets lifted, so these 10second DPS burns on bosses will end and we'll get to see some endurance fights. I will feel sorry for the clerics, gogo CH-chain.

[Ikonoclastia]

Try 96 hours, its +/-48hrs, so 48 hours on either side of exactly 7 days.

Visually, it looks like this:

+----------|----+----|
kill............5D....7D....9D
...............entire window

On Live, the mob would spawn at the plus sign* ( + ), here the mob can spawn anywhere between the pipes ( | ). Each dash ( - ) represents 12 hours. From this visual representation, you can see that a 7-day mob is "in window" (able to spawn) for ~44% of the 9-day "must spawn" window.

*Barring patches/server restarts, you could show up 7-days later like clockwork and kill the thing again.
Yeah that's even worse then. In the Play Nice Raid post they said it was to promote fairness and competition, it certainly doesn't seem to be doing that. Maybe time to set it back to classic mode.

[Alarti0001]

This is pretty hilarious considering your guildleader has personally broken more raid rules than any person playing on this server and it's not even close. Revisionist history FTW!


argument ad populum fallacy.

We require logic and evidence now that your lame guild is gone =)

[Shiftin]

The dozen times we frapsed him pulling aggro on trak to feed it life taps, the suspension for AEing the VS train you took because of him and him taking triggered sky mobs doesn't count? That proof has been posted boatloads of times buddy.

[Nizzarr]

I havent read the thread but on red theres none of that blue drama, there's almost no issue with raids mobs at all.

To the victor belongs the spoil!

[quido]

The dozen times we frapsed him pulling aggro on trak to feed it life taps, the suspension for AEing the VS train you took because of him and him taking triggered sky mobs doesn't count? That proof has been posted boatloads of times buddy.

Let's see those dozen frapses. I've never seen one.

QQ

p.s. you have a small penis

[Autotune]

I havent read the thread but on red theres none of that blue drama, there's almost no issue with raids mobs at all.

To the victor belongs the spoil!

There isn't anything on red and you can't win if no one is around to lose.

[Frieza_Prexus]

This is pretty hilarious considering your guildleader has personally broken more raid rules than any person playing on this server and it's not even close. Revisionist history FTW!

Oh, I'll certainly agree rules have been broken before. It's stupid when it happens, and whoever does it deserves a fitting remedy. I just wonder what your point is.

I find your statement to be without evidence or credibility. I also wonder what it has to do with the discussion. I mean, beyond you taking yet another opportunity to prove how much you dislike TMO.

If you're going to cast out such absolutes, at least try to back it up. Otherwise, we'll just end up here: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/glenn-beck-rape-murder-hoax

I hope this wont result in a TR/TMO derail, but judging by your post history I suspect we'll be seeing a wall of text and about 15 youtubes with poorer cinematography than the Blair Witch project. That said, I'm done with this derail here. Consider yourself disengaged and save the trouble.

[Labyrrinth]

<3 Xasten!

[Nizzarr]

There isn't anything on red and you can't win if no one is around to lose.

Thats just like your opinion, man.

Plenty of people on red, even if the other "guild" has pretty much quit.

[Autotune]

Thats just like your opinion, man.

Plenty of people on red, even if the other "guild" has pretty much quit.

I mean, for me, playing red would be like playing blue.

[quido]

Stealin when did you get so emo

[Kraegan]

1 or 2 guilds to dominate all raid mobs, giving a chance for the smaller guilds to have a go at the leftovers..

My guild on live back in classic cleared both dragons and Fear after the server came up, someone beat us to Hate...anyway...just sayin :)

[Autotune]

Stealin when did you get so emo

when I lost all my friends.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I don't see how they can call it a pvp server when the best equipment is earned by pve encounters.

need some full loot them i could see it being a pvp challenge ;p

[Alarti0001]

The dozen times we frapsed him pulling aggro on trak to feed it life taps, the suspension for AEing the VS train you took because of him and him taking triggered sky mobs doesn't count? That proof has been posted boatloads of times buddy.

Guys I have evidence its down here.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....







ok maybe not

[somnia]

@ Xasten: you are very well spoken and well mannered - wish there were more like you in your guild.

@OP: it's just the way p99 revolutionized, coupled with Splorf's statement - there's no way to really change the scene without PVP. Mobilization, numbers, tracking and zerging are specific to p99. It is unfortunate that "satisfying fights" can never been seen on this server where a dragon/god is taken down by few numbers, but you have to learn to adapt if you want loot because you can't really rely on GM intervention.

You have two choices right now:
1. Join TMO - they are getting every target now since VD is more or less out of the raiding scene.
2. Farm some plat and buy your items (if you prefer not to join TMO).

That's about all you can do now.

On the flip side, sooner or later, TMO will max gear their mains/apps/alts to a point where everyone and their lvl 2 alts will have their epics. When that time comes, I'm sure I can see them even putting Inny/CT/Trak on their endangered species list, but until that time comes, you only have 2 options.

This is basically the truth. Any semblance of "competition" on P1999 is over - there just aren't enough people with TMO-level devotion (hours played to 60, willingness to drop everything on raid spawn, tracking, organizing, etc) to compete. Realistically with no instances and a population of a few hundred online at once it makes sense to have only one hardcore guild anyways.

If about 30-50 people levels 55-60 of the right assortment of classes suddenly decide to
a) Maintain accurate tracking records for mob spawns and be able to report spawn the second it happens (stay logged in constantly checking or *cough* other methods)
b) Spend time leveling multiple alts to camp at locations of all targets in window.
c) 100% constant attention of all members.
d) Defining group formations ahead of time so everybody knows exactly how to organize themselves (port faster, efficient group formations)
e) Keep buffs up to clear trash the fastest (casters paying attention and keeping buff timers themselves)
f) Cell phone numbers of all members. All members keep logged in at all times and be ready to control their characters within seconds.
g) Accurate knowledge of statistics to maximize defense/offense abilities
h) Resist stacking correctly!
i) No ego complexes. If leader says you aren't doing something right - listen and improve.
j) Chain of command and obedient soldiers
k) Contingency plans in case of unexpected LD/crashes/etc.

Then they can run circles around TMO. The problem is finding people THAT devoted to winning on p1999. In all honesty, it's not hard to "compete" on P1999 - it's mostly about level of devotion to the game and how willing you are to treat the game as work instead of a fantasy world where statistics and mechanics are secondary to fun.

[Joroz]

oh well no more competition for raid targets, just hand outs each week to be "nice". sounds like things about to get real boring around p1999.

[seaweedpimpz]

This is basically the truth. Any semblance of "competition" on P1999 is over - there just aren't enough people with TMO-level devotion (hours played to 60, willingness to drop everything on raid spawn, tracking, organizing, etc) to compete. Realistically with no instances and a population of a few hundred online at once it makes sense to have only one hardcore guild anyways.

If about 30-50 people levels 55-60 of the right assortment of classes suddenly decide to
a) Maintain accurate tracking records for mob spawns and be able to report spawn the second it happens (stay logged in constantly checking or *cough* other methods)
b) Spend time leveling multiple alts to camp at locations of all targets in window.
c) 100% constant attention of all members.
d) Defining group formations ahead of time so everybody knows exactly how to organize themselves (port faster, efficient group formations)
e) Keep buffs up to clear trash the fastest (casters paying attention and keeping buff timers themselves)
f) Cell phone numbers of all members. All members keep logged in at all times and be ready to control their characters within seconds.
g) Accurate knowledge of statistics to maximize defense/offense abilities
h) Resist stacking correctly!
i) No ego complexes. If leader says you aren't doing something right - listen and improve.
j) Chain of command and obedient soldiers
k) Contingency plans in case of unexpected LD/crashes/etc.

Then they can run circles around TMO. The problem is finding people THAT devoted to winning on p1999. In all honesty, it's not hard to "compete" on P1999 - it's mostly about level of devotion to the game and how willing you are to treat the game as work instead of a fantasy world where statistics and mechanics are secondary to fun.


lmao.... just lmao

oh well no more competition for raid targets, just hand outs each week to be "nice". sounds like things about to get real boring around p1999.

You could still compete pal. I mean try. You dont have such good history of competing do you?

[somnia]

lmao.... just lmao



You could still compete pal. I mean try. You dont have such good history of competing do you?

sigh

[Flunklesnarkin]

not sure why they are laughing.. thats about all it would take to compete.


I don't think most people are interested in that level of competition though.


but i dont think they would have to level up multiple accounts.. people sell them premade all the time as is.. just farm plat.

[fischsemmel]

Let me see if I got this right.

All it takes to beat TMO to kills in the same way that TMO currently beats everyone else to kills is 30-50 people each willing to track like crazy and log on whenever/wherever on any one of their multiple accounts with characters logged out in the right spots and all fully and correctly buffed and geared at all times... plus a guild secretary or two working 40 hour weeks to keep perfect records for mob windows and batphones and to keep spies out... plus everyone needs to listen to directions and accept criticism (from a good leader, mind you).


Well yeah. Now I can totally understand why all you people refuse to admit that it would be "hard" to "compete" for raid kills on p99. It hardly takes any time or effort or dedication or coordination or leadership or quality members at all whatsoever!

[Flunklesnarkin]

coordination is about all it takes..


most people here don't want to go through the hassle


I don't think anybody is saying coordinating a group of people is easy

[Flunklesnarkin]

you are right there


I dont think some people realize how hard it is to get 18 people to a raid let alone 30 or 50 or 100


but that is a list of what a guild would have to do to compete.. and I seriously doubt many people are up for that.

[fischsemmel]

but that is a list of what a guild would have to do to compete.. and I seriously doubt many people are up for that.

Right. Because actually doing all of that stuff is hard (i.e. difficult/troublesome to accomplish).

My point is that someone like Somnia knows that it would take a lot of different elements in order for a guild to win kills over TMO, as is evidenced by the pretty exhaustive list he gave of what would be required to beat TMO to kills, and yet he insists that it wouldn't be hard to do this.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Well yeah. Now I can totally understand why all you people refuse to admit that it would be "hard" to "compete" for raid kills on p99. It hardly takes any time or effort or dedication or coordination or leadership or quality members at all whatsoever!

Oh, except it doesn't anymore.

You guys pretty much just log on 50 people when things spawn and kill them uncontested. How is that any different than a handout? Enjoy your lack of competition... to get loot so you can... experience no competition in Velious either... grats, you win!!

Seriously, FTE on Trak with only 5 people left in zone and Amelinda grants it to you? Spies in other guilds' forums? Posting rival guildleader's RL pic here and making fun of it? Buying up sold accounts so you can park them wherever and they can't be used against you?

How TMO deals with "competition":
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dcu5sYxcEuo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Flunklesnarkin]

FTE needs to be fixed for sure lol


if only 5 people in a zone and they are given dragon loot on a raid kill.. thats a bit shady >_>


I think others have said a good solution would be the monster just shout who was first to engage.


then you could just sit back and wait for the 5 to wipe.

[fischsemmel]

Well yeah. Now I can totally understand why all you people refuse to admit that it would be "hard" to "compete" for raid kills on p99. It hardly takes any time or effort or dedication or coordination or leadership or quality members at all whatsoever!

Oh, except it doesn't anymore.

Yes, it (i.e. competing for raid kills) does (take time, effort, dedication, coordination, etc).

What doesn't take vast amounts of dedication and effort and time is killing stuff uncontested (though it does still take a pretty significant amount of time and such to do our best to ensure we don't lose many kills to socks/timing/luck/the occassional competition). But I didn't say that it is hard to kill things uncontested... you just decided to kind of jump over to that topic as a segway to a little rant about yesterday's news.

[Paumad]

Yend, I am willing to send you RL pics of me that you can make fun of. But man, you got to calm down.
Buying up accounts so that we what now? Quitters selling accounts for god knows what and we're the bad guys for getting cheap alts.
Loved the vid though.

[Splorf22]

I don't think anyone can say it doesn't take time, effort and dedication.

The problem is that it takes a huge, ridiculous quantity of time and not much skill.

[somnia]

Right. Because actually doing all of that stuff is hard (i.e. difficult/troublesome to accomplish).

My point is that someone like Somnia knows that it would take a lot of different elements in order for a guild to win kills over TMO, as is evidenced by the pretty exhaustive list he gave of what would be required to beat TMO to kills, and yet he insists that it wouldn't be hard to do this.

Yes, it (i.e. competing for raid kills) does (take time, effort, dedication, coordination, etc).

What doesn't take vast amounts of dedication and effort and time is killing stuff uncontested (though it does still take a pretty significant amount of time and such to do our best to ensure we don't lose many kills to socks/timing/luck/the occassional competition). But I didn't say that it is hard to kill things uncontested... you just decided to kind of jump over to that topic as a segway to a little rant about yesterday's news.

I don't think anyone can say it doesn't take time, effort and dedication.

The problem is that it takes a huge, ridiculous quantity of time and not much skill.

Splorf's quote says it all. It doesn't take as much "skill" as much as tedious and laborious annoyances to accomplish all the elements that go into a successful raiding guild on P1999. In other words, it's mostly dedication to very simple and repetitive behavior and learning mechanics that have already been well-established.

Anybody can at the very least create tables in excel or, if they have coding background, create a simple program to handle guild organization, but actually spending the time to manage the data just to win pixels on an emulated game is a time commitment that many players don't wish to bother burdening themselves with. That being said, I don't know the inner working of TMO - perhaps they're fairly disorganized - but despite their frequent presentation of "This is no work for us we're just that awesome", I'm willing to guarantee they're going a few extra miles than any other guild on the server.

What I was trying to highlight in my original post with the bullet points is that paying full attention and going the (few) extra mile is what translates to winning contested raid targets in p1999. However, when framed like this, P1999 sounds like work or something somebody does for a sense of achievement and many people don't play video games for a sense of achievement but for leisure and fun. When it stops being fun they choose to no longer play.

In the end, many players recognize the extra commitment necessary to compete for raid spawns and decide that raid gear is not really worth the trouble. Acknowledging this fact and all things considered, it's probably best there is only one hardcore raiding guild on the server. Eases the work from the hardcores a little but also reduces their intensity so casual guilds may snag a target here and there. Besides, if TMO was serious about wanting competition they'd splinter their guild and compete amongst themselves.

[somnia]

Oh, except it doesn't anymore.

You guys pretty much just log on 50 people when things spawn and kill them uncontested. How is that any different than a handout? Enjoy your lack of competition... to get loot so you can... experience no competition in Velious either... grats, you win!!

Seriously, FTE on Trak with only 5 people left in zone and Amelinda grants it to you? Spies in other guilds' forums? Posting rival guildleader's RL pic here and making fun of it? Buying up sold accounts so you can park them wherever and they can't be used against you?

How TMO deals with "competition":
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dcu5sYxcEuo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yep. Being able to sell off raid loot to earn plat to buy 50+ characters to park more characters as more raid spawn pointers to more easily get kills to get more raid loot and the cycle continues.

It's strategic yet anti-competitive. Let's be real, TMO only wants competition if TMO has the upper hand so they are guaranteed to have other people to ridicule. Surprised there's no rules against guild monopolies - forcing TMO to split would be interesting to watch.

[Arteker]

Oh, except it doesn't anymore.

You guys pretty much just log on 50 people when things spawn and kill them uncontested. How is that any different than a handout? Enjoy your lack of competition... to get loot so you can... experience no competition in Velious either... grats, you win!!

Seriously, FTE on Trak with only 5 people left in zone and Amelinda grants it to you? Spies in other guilds' forums? Posting rival guildleader's RL pic here and making fun of it? Buying up sold accounts so you can park them wherever and they can't be used against you?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dcu5sYxcEuo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

what i remember is u guys doing that and claiming fte for atleats 4 times and didint give it to u .


Like when lorraine jumped in with da + shiny idol to buy more time for u to get more online and amelinda ruled for us because unlike u we have a real force behind to kill.

[Arteker]

Yep. Being able to sell off raid loot to earn plat to buy 50+ characters to park more characters as more raid spawn pointers to more easily get kills to get more raid loot and the cycle continues.

It's strategic yet anti-competitive. Let's be real, TMO only wants competition if TMO has the upper hand so they are guaranteed to have other people to ridicule. Surprised there's no rules against guild monopolies - forcing TMO to split would be interesting to watch.

As ib vd teach u both tmos would team up and win !

[somnia]

As ib vd teach u both tmos would team up and win !

I'm not so sure. I'd have to know more about loot distribution and the general contentment of players in the guild. Who knows, may be members like the slow steady acquisition of raid gear and don't want to have to put in more effort to double their chances in the event of a split. On the other hand, may be there are factions in the guild that are unhappy and would be willing to compete against TMO. Hard to say.

Leadership might also be doing a good job of promoting troop cohesion so members might not want to compete against their "friends". There are a number of factors to consider.

[Arteker]

Yep. Being able to sell off raid loot to earn plat to buy 50+ characters to park more characters as more raid spawn pointers to more easily get kills to get more raid loot and the cycle continues.

It's strategic yet anti-competitive. Let's be real, TMO only wants competition if TMO has the upper hand so they are guaranteed to have other people to ridicule. Surprised there's no rules against guild monopolies - forcing TMO to split would be interesting to watch.

i joined tmo when TR beat us 85% of the times and they have all the adventages tmo have now 60s gear and skills (less guide help, we havent achieved that yet).

We have a option than was merge with DA, before it we raided together , we wiped in gore many times and watched as tr come and rape it without problems .

The merge despite of not fantastical quickstart worked , few people quit or went to TR for easy loot (i loved u baub).

But slowly with many defeats and many mocks we begin to get fucking targets , and finnaly we broke TR domain over trak.


To achieve it the guild had to endure some sacrifices and lost many people .


me question is what guild now have the will to actualy do the same ?.

the problem with epics in bp flooding the market people is not interested to kill things they want it the wow have games .


Grind money buy stuff other wise u will not win .

[somnia]

http://blogs.thepoconos.com/file/import/64b555af-8e17-454e-9752-c83a784a8964.jpeg

[Alarti0001]

http://blogs.thepoconos.com/file/import/64b555af-8e17-454e-9752-c83a784a8964.jpeg

pictures are worth 1000 words.... however none of those words are relevant to this discussion, thanks for the memories tho

[Joroz]

everyone has a different view on why they like eq, from tmo's posters they think everyone has the same view and dedication to the game as them. the dedication is great if that's what you want to do, but for the most part the raid game on p99 is just not worth the time to play that style. taunt, brag, humiliate, dramatise, etc that won't change anything at the end of the day, most people are grounded in reality and will remain opportunistic in the game to do things on their own time.

raid scene on p99 is like a sand box. currently its littered with pieces of shit everywhere. some people overlook this and play in the shit filled sand, but others avoid it because their tolerance isn't the same. if a clean patch of sand is seen they may jump in and play for a while. eventually the pieces of shit will be removed or new sand will be added. but the sand box is only so big so it will fill up with pieces of shit again as long as people keep taking shits in the sand.

[Grozmok]

for the most part the raid game on p99 is just not worth the time to play that style. taunt, brag, humiliate, dramatise, etc that won't change anything at the end of the day, most people are grounded in reality and will remain opportunistic in the game to do things on their own time.


My only beef?

Not having the opportunity to pick and choose ANY raid target, since it's under the control of one guild.

That is all.

[fischsemmel]

The problem is that it takes a huge, ridiculous quantity of time and not much skill.

What amuses me is that people are always all over these forums saying that the reason they don't raid is because they aren't willing to put in the TIME. No one ever says that they lack the leadership skills or the knowledge of the game or the motivation to organize, manage, and mobilize a guild.

And yet these same people who insist that it is the time barrier keeping them from raiding have not yet seized upon the allegedly simple task of forming and operating and mobilizing and managing a megaguild that could crush TMO beneath its feet.


Why haven't you crushed TMO yet, all you casuals? If you formed a 200-person megaguild you'd easily be able to log enough hours amongst yourselves to beat TMO, but without any one of you having to spend massive amounts of time ingame to accomplish this. Right? Cause all it would take to chase TMO off is time, right?!

[fischsemmel]

Y'all need to stop rationalizing that the only reason you aren't smoking the shit out of VP every week is because you don't want to put that much time into the game and admit that although it doesn't take a videogame virtuoso to play p99 well, it takes a hell of a lot more than raw hours /played to do what TMO is doing.

[Ravager]

Why haven't you crushed TMO yet, all you casuals? If you formed a 200-person megaguild you'd easily be able to log enough hours amongst yourselves to beat TMO, but without any one of you having to spend massive amounts of time ingame to accomplish this. Right? Cause all it would take to chase TMO off is time, right?!

The server vs TMO?

[fischsemmel]

The server vs TMO?

I can't speak for the guild, as I'm just a relatively new member.

But I'm pretty sure that the guild's response to this would be "Bring it."

[Alarti0001]

Y'all need to stop rationalizing that the only reason you aren't smoking the shit out of VP every week is because you don't want to put that much time into the game and admit that although it doesn't take a videogame virtuoso to play p99 well, it takes a hell of a lot more than raw hours /played to do what TMO is doing.

I play maybe 3-4 hours a week and keep about 35-40% attendance.

[Mystro]

Y'all need to stop rationalizing that the only reason you aren't smoking the shit out of VP every week is because you don't want to put that much time into the game.

Says the new recruit that joined tmo for there loot rots... Maybe if you were with them from day 1 your responses would be reconigized, until then, shut your mouth and stop talking like you earn loot.

[Gwence]

I play maybe 3-4 hours a week and keep about 35-40% attendance.

WHOA WATCH OUT EVERYONE, WE GOT A BADASS MOFO UP IN HERE

[baub]

The merge despite of not fantastical quickstart worked , few people quit or went to TR for easy loot (i loved u baub).

lol you little nig, I stuck it out with TMO for that extra month or two just so I wouldn't give this impression. You do realize when I left we had just gotten the last 4 or 5 Trakanon's in a row and were stream rolling some shit right?

[Autotune]

confirmed EQmac boring as shit, have to come to p99 forums to have fun.

[fischsemmel]

Says the new recruit that joined tmo for there loot rots... Maybe if you were with them from day 1 your responses would be reconigized, until then, shut your mouth and stop talking like you earn loot.

I don't even know why I'm replying to your troll, but:

1. My time with TMO is not relevant to my discussion of the "time is all it takes to get raid kills" argument that people throw around on these forums all too often.

2. If I had joined TMO just because I wanted loot, I probably would have sold my account the second I got my epic and then twinked out another character with the proceeds.

3. I actually joined TMO because it was the best place to accomplish my 3 p99 goals (make level 60, see all the raid content I missed on live, get my epic) and because I got to know Kelendil and he suggested I should apply.

4. I entertain no delusions of granduer of my position in TMO, I just try to level when I can, track when I can, and attend raids when I can, and the loot council decides whether I'm deserving of loots, rot or otherwise.

[baub]

al'kabor forums are pretty dull~

so is p99 lately though

[Gwence]

confirmed EQmac boring as shit, have to come to p99 forums to have fun.

you're right (first time for everything) eqmac forums are pretty dry - the server itself is amazing.

plus these forums are already completely screwed up and I'm bored at work

[Lazortag]

What amuses me is that people are always all over these forums saying that the reason they don't raid is because they aren't willing to put in the TIME. No one ever says that they lack the leadership skills or the knowledge of the game or the motivation to organize, manage, and mobilize a guild.

And yet these same people who insist that it is the time barrier keeping them from raiding have not yet seized upon the allegedly simple task of forming and operating and mobilizing and managing a megaguild that could crush TMO beneath its feet.


Why haven't you crushed TMO yet, all you casuals? If you formed a 200-person megaguild you'd easily be able to log enough hours amongst yourselves to beat TMO, but without any one of you having to spend massive amounts of time ingame to accomplish this. Right? Cause all it would take to chase TMO off is time, right?!

I like how you essentialize all casual players as being unskilled and disorganized, despite the fact that you had no problem asking a certain player from a casual guild for Bard advice as you were leveling. Your argument is really silly too because expecting all casual guilds to merge just to beat TMO is completely unreasonable. Maybe we don't want to merge. Maybe we like keeping our identity as a guild. Maybe "crushing the competition" isn't our one single goal on p99. And anyways this is all irrelevant because the level of commitment this server expects was not required in classic. There's a reason casual guilds on Live did much better than they do here, and I'm sure it's not because all the casual guilds on p99 are somehow inferior.

[fischsemmel]

I like how you essentialize all casual players as being unskilled and disorganized, despite the fact that you had no problem asking a certain player from a casual guild for Bard advice as you were leveling. Your argument is really silly too because expecting all casual guilds to merge just to beat TMO is completely unreasonable. Maybe we don't want to merge. Maybe we like keeping our identity as a guild. Maybe "crushing the competition" isn't our one single goal on p99. And anyways this is all irrelevant because the level of commitment this server expects was not required in classic. There's a reason casual guilds on Live did much better than they do here, and I'm sure it's not because all the casual guilds on p99 are somehow inferior.

I'm afraid that I don't know where or when I said any of the things you are attributing to me. :(

The only argument I am making is that it takes much more than time to compete for raid kills on this server, and in the post you quoted I tried to demonstrate the truth of that by showing how ludicrous it would be to expect a megaguild to beat TMO to kills simply because that megaguild would log more playtime overall than TMO does.

[Silentone]

lol you little nig, I stuck it out with TMO for that extra month or two just so I wouldn't give this impression. You do realize when I left we had just gotten the last 4 or 5 Trakanon's in a row and were stream rolling some shit right?

false, you left when we lost about 4 traks in a row not when we were steamrolling. nice try though.

[Lazortag]

I'm afraid that I don't know where or when I said any of the things you are attributing to me. :(

The only argument I am making is that it takes much more than time to compete for raid kills on this server, and in the post you quoted I tried to demonstrate the truth of that by showing how ludicrous it would be to expect a megaguild to beat TMO to kills simply because that megaguild would log more playtime overall than TMO does.

Then I guess I misinterpreted your post? It seemed like you were implying the opposite (that time investment isn't what causes certain guilds to monopolize raid mobs, but that the casuals are just disorganized/unskilled/unknowledgeable).

[fischsemmel]

Then I guess I misinterpreted your post? It seemed like you were implying the opposite (that time investment isn't what causes certain guilds to monopolize raid mobs, but that the casuals are just disorganized/unskilled/unknowledgeable).

Nah, I didn't mean to say that anyone was unskilled or anything like that. My bad if it came across that way.

I can't deny that winning races to raid mobs on p99 takes a lot of time, but I do get grumpy when the people who aren't getting kills act as if all that is the only thing that is required to win competed-for kills.

[Splorf22]

What amuses me is that people are always all over these forums saying that the reason they don't raid is because they aren't willing to put in the TIME. No one ever says that they lack the leadership skills or the knowledge of the game or the motivation to organize, manage, and mobilize a guild.

OK, I will concede that there are some things beyond pure time. I suppose for lack of a better word we could call it discipline. Again, some of us consider this a GAME. If I wanted to join the army I would do that.

[Sithel1988]

but if you join the army, all the good raid mobs are taken down. Osama, Ghaddafi

[Flunklesnarkin]

gonna be raiding Iran soon from what i hear >_>

[somnia]

everyone has a different view on why they like eq, from tmo's posters they think everyone has the same view and dedication to the game as them. the dedication is great if that's what you want to do, but for the most part the raid game on p99 is just not worth the time to play that style. taunt, brag, humiliate, dramatise, etc that won't change anything at the end of the day, most people are grounded in reality and will remain opportunistic in the game to do things on their own time.

raid scene on p99 is like a sand box. currently its littered with pieces of shit everywhere. some people overlook this and play in the shit filled sand, but others avoid it because their tolerance isn't the same. if a clean patch of sand is seen they may jump in and play for a while. eventually the pieces of shit will be removed or new sand will be added. but the sand box is only so big so it will fill up with pieces of shit again as long as people keep taking shits in the sand.

This about sums it up. TMO wants people to play in the shit-filled sandbox with them but everybody recognizes it's wise not to play in the shit. Either more sand or less shit should remedy the problem (more raid mobs or less hardcores)

[Sithel1988]

gonna be raiding Iran soon from what i hear >_>

o snap, when is The Scars of Iran released?

[Asher]

gonna be raiding Iran soon from what i hear >_>

Don't think we have the guild funds for that.

Asher

[baub]

Don't think we have the guild funds for that.

Asher

We have GM access. Just make plat out of thin air duh

[Arteker]

lol you little nig, I stuck it out with TMO for that extra month or two just so I wouldn't give this impression. You do realize when I left we had just gotten the last 4 or 5 Trakanon's in a row and were stream rolling some shit right?

i remember you left as quick as you got the tooth infact hours later , u were not tmo when we we got the streak victory , actualy most of them i remember people angry at you because they couldnt understand u left when we where winning and u got loot.


But well i dont expect same shit of jabroni a dude who lvled with me over 6 lvls in sebilis hs .

[baub]

so i left to get loot even though we were winning and i was getting loot?

your own words man

if i craved pixels so much I would've stayed in TMO and continued to be unhappy. I guess it was real selfish of me to join IB to be with my friends who I had spent the last year+ with

some of you really need to moveon.org

[Arteker]

Actualy there was many people in tmo myself who think you where a friend and never said anything against u .

but seems u turned a whiney bitch like most of those other friends .

[baub]

just be happy for me babe, you'll feel better in the morning

[Paumad]

Says the new recruit that joined tmo for there loot rots... Maybe if you were with them from day 1 your responses would be reconigized, until then, shut your mouth and stop talking like you earn loot.


Myyystrooo, come on. We lack bards..Are we not supposed to pimp the living shit out of a new member of that class. Not to mention he earned them by having a stellar tracking history and put in more work in a month than some in half a year. Granted he was not there from day 1 but he has at least a view from how TMO works from within and can reply to people's assumptions better than any of the many forum theorycrafters.

[Ikonoclastia]

Nah, I didn't mean to say that anyone was unskilled or anything like that. My bad if it came across that way.

I can't deny that winning races to raid mobs on p99 takes a lot of time, but I do get grumpy when the people who aren't getting kills act as if all that is the only thing that is required to win competed-for kills.
^^ this is rediculous

[Alarti0001]

^^ this is rediculous

lol

[somnia]

Then I guess I misinterpreted your post? It seemed like you were implying the opposite (that time investment isn't what causes certain guilds to monopolize raid mobs, but that the casuals are just disorganized/unskilled/unknowledgeable).

I MISINTERPRETED THE POST

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSH4IQR4dAFkQXq9OM_1bGJXX0lSUpi LB8yGCwy8LHVikegxzL_pjGPjiTUg

[somnia]

No seriously not enough TMO sniffing their own farts going on here. Somebody provoke them. I mean come on Autotune hasn't posted in several pages and her posts are hilarious.

[Mystro]

Myyystrooo, come on. We lack bards..Are we not supposed to pimp the living shit out of a new member of that class. Not to mention he earned them by having a stellar tracking history and put in more work in a month than some in half a year. Granted he was not there from day 1 but he has at least a view from how TMO works from within and can reply to people's assumptions better than any of the many forum theorycrafters.

First off, my comment wasnt a "flame" or "troll" or whatever the term is these people use, I don't fly like that.

Second, it's good to hear he's doing work and not just leeching like some/most people do. But let's not make posts about how to progress a guild or tell people how to progress a guild and do things when he's a app For a guild that has already finished end game content.

On another note, I'm Glad to see another TMO bard doing work, Looking forward to beating you to the dragons once were up and running full force again!

~Mystro

[fischsemmel]

On another note, I'm Glad to see another TMO bard doing work, Looking forward to beating you to the dragons once were up and running full force again!

~Mystro

Ooh, sounds fun :)

[Danyelle]

No seriously not enough TMO sniffing their own farts going on here. Somebody provoke them. I mean come on Autotune hasn't posted in several pages and her posts are hilarious.

>her

[Kevlar]

Not to mention he earned them by having a stellar tracking history and put in more work in a month than some in half a year.

Unemployment, its a hell of a thing!

[Jimes]

Says the new recruit that joined tmo for there loot rots... Maybe if you were with them from day 1 your responses would be reconigized, until then, shut your mouth and stop talking like you earn loot.

so mad lol

[Mystro]

so mad lol

Now this here is a prime example of a troll poster.

Go back to RnF guy. Keep the "you mad bro" jokes to yourself

[tekniq]

What amuses me is that people are always all over these forums saying that the reason they don't raid is because they aren't willing to put in the TIME.

I don't raid anymore because if I do, TMO make fun of me, taunt me, and make me QQ and not want to play no more T_T

[Chloroform]

i like turtles

[Chloroform]

this game is brutal, u lose exp when u die, u can delevel, raid mobs are tough and spawn with variance. i just dont get why all of you are so soft, get some resist gear grow some balls and compete. Pondering and contemplating gets you no where, u need to stand up take action and move forward to progress!

i like turtles

[Paumad]

Unemployment, its a hell of a thing!
You are ugly irl.

[fischsemmel]

Personally I find unemployment to be immensely satisfying. I'll probably need to start seeing a shrink when I get my bar results back and actually get a job :(

[Jimes]

Now this here is a prime example of a troll poster.

Go back to RnF guy. Keep the "you mad bro" jokes to yourself

super mad

[Kevlar]

Personally I find unemployment to be immensely satisfying. I'll probably need to start seeing a shrink when I get my bar results back and actually get a job :(

Good deal. After that you can help some of your guild buddies file for food stamps or fake workmans comp/disability claims! All from mommies basement!