Wizard dps vs melee in groups?

[Scavrefamn]

Is it as abysmal as I've heard?

Are wizards pure garbage in the Kunark era like so many people are saying?

Does anyone have a parse?

[Slave]

Pure garbage. A meleeing shaman will put out more dps over time, I'd say. And that is not something that you would generally consider to be an efficient use of a shaman.

[Noselacri]

Really poor in a chain-pulling xp group. Especially if you're killing yellow and sometimes red mobs, as you often do while leveling.

[Holey]

i say wizards are BURST damage, not LONG term killing

[Swish]

Unfortunately, if the dps wasn't enough of a problem I've been getting into groups with wizards who enjoy an extended AFK far too often. You'd think if you played a wizard and spent lots of time LFG that you'd want to impress the group you're in. Not so, at least not lately.

It's a class that attracts the AFKers, with every other "sitter" except maybe druids having to get up and heal or send a pet in each fight.

Only way to deal with them is to kick them after 5 minutes afk...90% of the time they're back within the next 30 seconds and don't do it again.

Give me a second ranger over a wizard... there, I said it...

[Scavrefamn]

Man, the sledge hammer reality of this thread has made me not want to play my Wizard alt, ever.

Lol.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Man, the sledge hammer reality of this thread has made me not want to play my Wizard alt, ever.

Lol.


wizards do quite well solo... aoe kiting

[Psionide]

The wizard class is a very niche class to play ask anybody who plays a wizard seriously and enjoys it. Nobody makes a wiz thinking "I really wanna outdamage the rogue in groups." Theres been so much palaver over such a simple one dimensional class. I mean there not so bad in a regular kill session chill group with some sort of C. Letting the wiz be the executioner of mobs while the puller ran to get more at certain percentages.

Don't forget the quadding :)

[Nips]

Man, the sledge hammer reality of this thread has made me not want to play my Wizard alt, ever.

Lol.

Wizard isn't that bad, I wouldn't be that put off. A good wiz will save a good chunk of his mana always, and when the groups gets into a tough situation, they can either burn down the mobs much faster then a melee would, or they can evac too.

[Psionide]

also really ask yourself when you play and group are you most of the time in those grindcore xpfest steady groups.

[Scavrefamn]

Nobody makes a wiz thinking "I really wanna outdamage the rogue in groups."

On the Fippy Darkpaw progression server a few years back, that's exactly why I started a Wizard.

To be the highest dps... and I was <3
Across many expansions actually.

But live progression servers are extremely different from Project 1999 which is far more faithful to classic.


I WANT to play a Wizard, but I don't want to be severely crippled in terms of DPS the way this thread leads me to believe.

[Flunklesnarkin]

fippy was about as far from classic as you could get imo


newbie armor quests.. exp pots.. translocators.. other post luclin nameds in game.. i'll just stop now >_>

[Nips]

On the Fippy Darkpaw progression server a few years back, that's exactly why I started a Wizard.

To be the highest dps... and I was <3
Across many expansions actually.

But live progression servers are extremely different from Project 1999 which is far more faithful to classic.


I WANT to play a Wizard, but I don't want to be severely crippled in terms of DPS the way this thread leads me to believe.

How is it different? I think you guys had post nerf ice comet and post nerf sunstrike, whereas here, it is pre nerf? Could be wrong. Pre nerf is far better then post nerf, they really gimped those spells. Only other differences would be item spell specs, but they had those for melee too, and they are just as effective.
Only thing that made wizzys better on the progression servers were xpacks like PoP, in which wizzys were complete own.

[Atmas]

Wizards are pretty bad sustained damage. They can still be useful in groups though because of their utility.

If you plan to do a lot of soloing or don't want to wait for groups a wizard can be a nice pick, you can go where you want and get to killing no time wasted. You will have a lot of down time though, but you can potentially use that for real life stuff.

In the end game they can lay down the DPS for raid bosses.

[Noselacri]

Wizards aren't "severely crippled" in terms of DPS, they're just probably the worst of the actual DPS classes when it comes to the kind of chain-pulling grind that exp groups do. They're still better than filling a DPS spot with a druid who doesn't need to help with healing, for example. I don't really see people rejecting wizards, but they don't go looking for them either. Then again, that's the case for half the classes in this game.

[Soandso]

Out of Combat regen on progession servers is all the difference to a wizard....

[Grozmok]

I wanted to make a wizard a long time ago only for the ability to port friends. It also has the added bonus of not having to deal with people mooching SoW all the time. :D

Other than that, I ended up rolling a necro for sustained DPS. If you want to play a squishy and have insane DPS, necro or GTFO.

[Soandso]

if you wanna do more than mana pump chanters on raids don't play a necro

[Grozmok]

if you wanna do more than mana pump chanters on raids don't play a necro

That's old thinking, dude:

Traditionally, necromancers were utilized long ago for their ability to transfer mana directly from themselves to a single other player character. This twitch line of spells is loathed by many members of the class as it requires the necromancer to cease all DPS (the main reason you keep them around) in order to give a very very small amount of mana to the recipient. Unfortunately...even today, the occasional ignorant raid leader will still send calls for necros to start twitching or pumping when clerics report LOM status. Simply ignore the requests and continue DPS'ing if you find yourself in this situation and odds are you will receive compliments for twitching anyways.

[Grozmok]

Sorry, I'm getting off topic here.

If you want sustained DPS and awesome utility go for Monk.
If you want burst DPS go for a Rogue.
If you want someone AFK, get a Wizard (make sure they put on their robe and hat).
If you want sustained DPS and a pet for offtanking, get a Necro.

[godbox]

if you want a pet that outdamages everything on that list but monk gooooo?
shaman?

[Splorf22]

If we assume all characters are 55+, a Wizard with C2 will get 32 mana/tick. If we assume they are using Draught of Ice 731 damage/215 mana, that works out to 110 damage/tick or 18 dps. An epic rogue (and there is no other kind on this server) with enchanter haste on the other hand will put out maybe 75-100 dps in a single fight; a Monk 50-80, a Warrior 35-50 or so, a Paladin or SK 20-35, and even a Bard is usually good for 15-20.

So if the group is fighting 60%-70% of the time, a wizard is about on par with a Paladin or SK for dps and well below any pure melee.

[gnatte]

I hear alot of BS about wizards sucking but IMHO its the player, I nuke 1-2 times per mob mana permitting and i do as much or more dmg than anyone else in group. Only in some group makeups or certain situations wizards may lack dps, yellow and reds resist alot and makes wizard less effective but on DB mobs you will crush! I have grouped with other wizards and some do afk a shit ton, But once again thats a player issue.

[Grozmok]

Fair enough.

Something else to consider:

Melee is mana free DPS.
Any caster is 100% mana dependent.

[Silentone]

Fair enough.

Something else to consider:

Melee is mana free DPS.
Any caster is 100% mana dependent.

not really, melee depends on buffs, a melee w/o haste/buffs is going to parse garbage.

[Grozmok]

I was talking about straight up DPS, all things being equal.

Caster nuking and medding between fights vs. melee autoattack and bash/flying kick/backstab.

No buffs, no haste, etc.

[godbox]

theres other stuff to consider like Wiz doesnt need to be physically close to the mob so not gonna get aoed / take hits and using wizard/mage to wrap up that last 30% of health on a mob that heals with some big bursts. those are just 2 things i thought of I am sure there are others. I personnally like a caster DPS as a healer because they dont eat up my mana from the tank.

[Scavrefamn]

If we assume all characters are 55+, a Wizard with C2 will get 32 mana/tick. If we assume they are using Draught of Ice 731 damage/215 mana, that works out to 110 damage/tick or 18 dps. An epic rogue (and there is no other kind on this server) with enchanter haste on the other hand will put out maybe 75-100 dps in a single fight; a Monk 50-80, a Warrior 35-50 or so, a Paladin or SK 20-35, and even a Bard is usually good for 15-20.

So if the group is fighting 60%-70% of the time, a wizard is about on par with a Paladin or SK for dps and well below any pure melee.

Oh my god.

That's just brutal man... every time I check this thread, it makes me regret rolling Wizard even more.

[godbox]

Oh my god.

That's just brutal man... every time I check this thread, it makes me regret rolling Wizard even more.

a) those numbers are not substantiated by anything its speculation
b) wizards are burst
I mean am i missing somone here the role isnt sustained or dps its how hard do you hit one time for a purpose at a specific time of fight. rogues and monks wear something down (monks more since rogues get lit the fuck up when they backstab too hard) until wizard and mage lay down burst at like 30% right?

thats how we always did it on live at least. And I am talkin about groupin throughout the game people always use "raiding" as there reasoning in these crazy threads but who on this server is raiding?!? tmo? anyone else?

[Rais]

Only reason why you roll a wizard in eq is for one of 2 reasons

A) You hate people and want to spend 90% of your time Quad Kiting/AoE groups
or
B) You just want to afk in groups and be the boss vs raid targets.

Wizards can do ok in groups, but there is a reason why you don't see wizards in every group. It wasn't till Sony made wizard nukes crit starting at lvl 1 did wizards even be on par with melee.

With the server deciding to cherry pick about letting people keep their keys soulbound, it effected Wizards/Druids in Sebilis/HS even more. Without them to evac groups out when shit hit the fan, groups had to depend on some other group to give up their camps and dungeon on crawl to your group and save you. It happened next to none on live servers unless it was guild members doing the saving and forced groups to decide to group a druid or wizard.

[Lazortag]

The difference in DPS is extremely noticeable between rogues/monks and wizards (in exp groups). I'll group with pretty much any class combination since I'm not picky, but I would take a rogue over a wizard any day in my groups.

[godbox]

part of the issue is the insane twink lvl on 99 im surprised when a rogue doesnt have ragebringer post lvl 20 now and shocked when a monk doesnt have rbg/rbb fungi and adam/kd

[Nagash]

Comes Velious, show me a raid targeting giants or dragons turning down a wizard and I'll show you a bunch of fools.

[Flunklesnarkin]

wizards can group..


aoe burn?? not sure why more people don't do that in everquest


guess timing 4 or 5 aoe's can be tough stuff though >_>

[Splorf22]

Well on raids the math changes entirely, especially with Kunark mobs and their 32000 hp. Lure of Ice is 825 damage/320 mana/4.5 second cast time, which works out to 8000 damage in under a minute - 140 dps, and substantially more than any melee can put out even with discs. And Wizards are also extremely useful for mobilizing, and simply necessary for ports up to Sky/Hate.

Its just for XP groups that they suck. It used to be that Wizards could level up efficiently in AOE groups, but with the unstunnable wurms if you want to hit 60, you better be prepared to quad kite raptors . . . a lot.

Personally I tried a twink wizard, and just found them to be incredibly boring. Nuke/afk 3 minutes/repeat.

[Grozmok]

every time I check this thread, it makes me regret rolling Wizard even more.

Dude, just play what you want. Don't let the min/max power gamers get you down.

[kazroth]

Dude, just play what you want. Don't let the min/max power gamers get you down.

I had a habit of doing this. I was always worried I wasn't "doing it right" for the longest time. Then I realized every time I followed the min/max strategy, I got bored, 'cuz I wasn't playing the class I really wanted to play. Just do what ya want and the game will be fun regardless!

[Ikonoclastia]

Only reason why you roll a wizard in eq is for one of 2 reasons

A) You hate people and want to spend 90% of your time Quad Kiting/AoE groups
or
B) You just want to afk in groups and be the boss vs raid targets.

Wizards can do ok in groups, but there is a reason why you don't see wizards in every group. It wasn't till Sony made wizard nukes crit starting at lvl 1 did wizards even be on par with melee.

With the server deciding to cherry pick about letting people keep their keys soulbound, it effected Wizards/Druids in Sebilis/HS even more. Without them to evac groups out when shit hit the fan, groups had to depend on some other group to give up their camps and dungeon on crawl to your group and save you. It happened next to none on live servers unless it was guild members doing the saving and forced groups to decide to group a druid or wizard.
I remember getting ridiculous xp aoe as chanter with wizzies in Seb. What do you mean server deciding to cherry pick ?

[bulbousaur]

Seb/HS keys aren't soulbound?

[falkun]

I remember getting ridiculous xp aoe as chanter with wizzies in Seb. What do you mean server deciding to cherry pick ?

That's more difficult on this server because caster NPCs do not require LOS to finish a cast, only to begin the cast. Makes pulling a pack of casters MUCH more dangerous on this server than on Live.

[Broot]

I played a Wizard on both Live and have a 49 on Classic. I love this class.

People tend to get caught up in ideals and believe "rogue is better because it has the best sustained damage". Let's compare what both classes have to offer, because they fill different roles with the dps role -

Rogue = Highest consistent dps and good aggro management with Hide / Evade.

Wizard = Damage on a throttle. Crowd control (turbo roots). Evacuate. Snare. Agro management (Concussion line)

In an ideal situation with nice pretty single pulls, a good tank and no adds, rogue will be the better choice hands-down. No contesting this.

When the group finds itself in deep trouble, and the Wizard has managed his/her mana properly, the Wizard has a few tricks up his/her sleeve that a rogue does not:

1.) Completely melt a mob with dps that cannot be matched by any other class and isn't dependent on having the mob's back open. (Resists must be factored, but in exp groups they are often blues)
2.) Plant the mob at a distance for a LONG root.
3.) Evacuate the entire group to safety.
4.) Agro-Snare kite up to 4 mobs (not very plausible in most dungeons, but sometimes this is viable)

Rogues don't have many options at their disposable to handle situations gone poorly. They can CR really well, though.

Damage control is also very important in raid encounters. A wizard can more or less choose exactly how much damage they do and at what point they do it. Best for full burn situations. Best for shorter encounters. I like doing the math involved in "How do I go from 100% to 0% mana on this boss fight without getting myself killed but still getting the most mana to damage (yea I'm a nerd).

I think people overlook how both these classes deal damage. Being able to throttle damage exactly to how you want to deal it is what makes Wizard a situationally better DPS. Don't let it get you down you aren't ideal for the perfect situation grind group - you fill a great and important niche and you could surprise a group and make them really happy they have you around.

If you don't mind sitting down a lot :D LOTS of sitting. I get a lot of chores done when I'm soloing.

[Grozmok]

Yeah, Wizards are totally useful. Not going to argue that. I thought we were just talking melee DPS vs. wizzy DPS, though?

Also, being able to blast mobs that run/gate is super useful as well. It's a form of crowd control, really.

[Broot]

Yea, that's true, if we talk about ONLY dps, then Wizards don't add up well. Maybe with C2, epic buff regen and Bard song they will be uber- but that's not realistic.

It's narrow sighted to only talk about DPS so I wanted to bring up the CC / insurance roles that a Wizard also brings in some depth.

But like Groz mentioned earlier - play what you think is cool in your heart of hearts. Don't let the min / maxxers get ya down ;)

[Rais]

Seb/HS keys aren't soulbound?

Keys are soul bound. In Kunark keys weren't soul bound. It made Seb, HS and Vp even harder than it was. That forced groups to be with a evacer most of the time. Thus it included Druids and Wizards, and dragged VP on for weeks on first kills, and not just 1 night.

[clacbec]

hmm ? a thread about Wiz ? what about a thread about gnomes ? a thread about people talking, a thread about slackers Etc .. what a LOL
G'

[Slave]

All those talking about how Wizards are useful because of their escape capabilities, remember that when you have a Wizard in your group, you are relatively understrength and may need that capability more often, leading to a self-serving prophecy.

[Splorf22]

Wall of text about how the wizard saves the group in bad situations.

Reality check: no, they don't. A L60 wizard has 3000 mana and can do perhaps 12k damage in full burn mode. A L50 mob has 10k hp. If you pull 4 krup shamans, the wizard is not going to blast them all (or even two of them) away, or kite them with aoe snare. Is the wizard useless in such a situation? Of course not. But if you replace the wizard with a good enchanter, that pull is suddenly not only no problem, but good xp.

The simple fact is that I have no idea why there is an advertisement for a new PVP server on a thread about why wizards are . . . underpowered . . . in XP groups.

[Grozmok]

I have no idea why there is an advertisement for a new PVP server on a thread about why wizards are . . . underpowered . . . in XP groups.

Because the dwindling, crybaby (ironic, I know), red population are mad that they've scared away all the lambs that were tired of getting slaughtered.

Who wants to log on to a game that already takes a lot of time to play and get their ass bind camped?

:rolleyes:

[Lazortag]

Reality check: no, they don't. A L60 wizard has 3000 mana and can do perhaps 12k damage in full burn mode. A L50 mob has 10k hp. If you pull 4 krup shamans, the wizard is not going to blast them all (or even two of them) away, or kite them with aoe snare. Is the wizard useless in such a situation? Of course not. But if you replace the wizard with a good enchanter, that pull is suddenly not only no problem, but good xp.

The simple fact is that I have no idea why there is an advertisement for a new PVP server on a thread about why wizards are . . . underpowered . . . in XP groups.

A typical exp mob at higher levels has much less than 10k hp (mobs in HS north/west wings have like 4-5k hp, mobs in chardok have about 6k I think, mobs in seb/KC are about the same I believe).

[Slave]

A typical exp mob at higher levels has much less than 10k hp (mobs in HS north/west wings have like 4-5k hp, mobs in chardok have about 6k I think, mobs in seb/KC are about the same I believe).

I would say that 10k hp at 50th level is quite accurate.

[Psionide]

Gyno if rogean was going to bring the server down when your advertising he is, he would change it just to make you look like the fucktard you are.

[Broot]

Is the wizard useless in such a situation? Of course not. But if you replace the wizard with a good enchanter, that pull is suddenly not only no problem, but good xp.

The discussion was about Wizard filling a DPS role. My lengthy post was to describe how a Wizard has benefits to bring to a party to compensate for its inferior DPS to other DPS classes. Wizard does not fill a crowd control role- and I am not arguing that. Enchanter has no relevance to this topic. This topic is about Wizard group DPS being inferior in groups. I wanted to point out to the OP that a wizard's inferior DPS can be offset by other options they bring to a group.

Most problem scenarios occur in the pulling phase or the crowd controlling phase. If something should go wrong such as unexpected adds or a series of unfortunate mez resists, a Wizard has some options to save the group that other DPS roles don't have.

[Slave]

The discussion was about Wizard filling a DPS role. My lengthy post was to describe how a Wizard has benefits to bring to a party to compensate for its inferior DPS to other DPS classes. Wizard does not fill a crowd control role- and I am not arguing that. Enchanter has no relevance to this topic. This topic is about Wizard group DPS being inferior in groups. I wanted to point out to the OP that a wizard's inferior DPS can be offset by other options they bring to a group.

Most problem scenarios occur in the pulling phase or the crowd controlling phase. If something should go wrong such as unexpected adds or a series of unfortunate mez resists, a Wizard has some options to save the group that other DPS roles don't have.

------->

All those talking about how Wizards are useful because of their escape capabilities, remember that when you have a Wizard in your group, you are relatively understrength and may need that capability more often, leading to a self-serving prophecy.

tldr: Got a Wizard? Then you'll be needing that Evac. lol

[Broot]

Reality check: no, they don't. A L60 wizard has 3000 mana and can do perhaps 12k damage in full burn mode. A L50 mob has 10k hp. If you pull 4 krup shamans, the wizard is not going to blast them all (or even two of them) away, or kite them with aoe snare. Is the wizard useless in such a situation? Of course not. But if you replace the wizard with a good enchanter, that pull is suddenly not only no problem, but good xp.

The simple fact is that I have no idea why there is an advertisement for a new PVP server on a thread about why wizards are . . . underpowered . . . in XP groups.

------->



tldr: Got a Wizard? Then you'll be needing that Evac. lol

Inferior DPS doesn't create most trouble scenarios. Usually trouble comes from botched pulls and botched crowd control. Wizard has no role in either of these. Therefore; having a wizard in your party does not create evac situations.

[Kairun]

Im going to have to side with having a wizard in the group as long as the wizard has C2. Its a lot safer with a wiz in the group besides evac - lol -. When adds come, Wiz Roots, Ench Mezzes so when mezzes break or resist the clerics not blowing mana on healing the ench. Okay, So youre fighting a tough mob and its tearing through your tank because he doesnt have 100k to spend on gear, tanks at 10% hp, oh no CH has 5 more seconds left. BOOM 700 dmg 8 second stun, whats up now? Clerics out of mana, Wiz has 60% mana left, mobs at 70%, mobs dead in 12 seconds and you guys are still alive and dont have to do CRs or clear the way back to fighting spot because you had to zone. on the average dps scale.. yeah rogues/monks take it but id rather have a good wizard in the group over 3 dpses... By good wiz i mean a wizard who actually uses root, who actually knows when to blow down mobs by spacing out nukes, and knows when to time the DD Stuns.
"average" dps, wizards dont win, they let the rogues do the light work and only have to unroll their sleeves when shit hits the fan.

[Lazortag]

I would say that 10k hp at 50th level is quite accurate.

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. I've tested hp totals for typical exp mobs in different high-end zones (mostly to see what kinds of ae groups would work). You should never be exping off mobs that have 10k hp when most blue mobs have half that much.

[Splorf22]

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. I've tested hp totals for typical exp mobs in different high-end zones (mostly to see what kinds of ae groups would work). You should never be exping off mobs that have 10k hp when most blue mobs have half that much.

Giegue, you making bad assumptions.

Obviously you can get to L60 without ever fighting a L50 mob. But you are losing out on most of the best loot in the game: HS South and the Chef/Crypt/Shroom areas of Sebilis all have L50 trash mobs. And the XP is actually quite good if you have good dps (250+ = kills every 40 seconds). This is not hard if you form a solid group (warrior 60/rogue 90/chain pulling monk 40/enchanter 100/shaman 0/ cleric 0 = 290). Of course you won't get there with (paladin 30/mage 60/wizard 20/druid 20/bard 30/cleric 0 = 140).

These loot-ridden L50 mobs have 10k hp. Go parse any mob that hits for 140 if you don't believe me. This is precisely the reason that they are harder. 4 low 40s lava duct crawlers will be blue at 60 but they aren't going to wipe any high 50s group, because with their 4-5k hp they'll die fast. It's precisely the L50 mobs with their higher resists, HP, damage, etc. that are actually dangerous.

Let me put the question to you then: what is your definition of a scenario of "the shit hits the fan" for a high 50s group? This is the scenario when all the wizards have been talking about how they kick ass.

[Splorf22]

BTW I would like to add to this that I have no problem grouping with a wizard if he is funny and enjoyable. I'm just saying reality is EQ is a horribly unbalanced game.

[Slave]

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. I've tested hp totals for typical exp mobs in different high-end zones (mostly to see what kinds of ae groups would work). You should never be exping off mobs that have 10k hp when most blue mobs have half that much.


http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/wp-images/graph.jpg

"The data only includes the original EQ and the first expansion Ruins of Kunark so I was not able to get a sample of level 70 mobs."

Oh hey, I was a little off, looks like the average hps of a level 50 mob is more like 12,000. Thanks again.

[Lazortag]

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/wp-images/graph.jpg

"The data only includes the original EQ and the first expansion Ruins of Kunark so I was not able to get a sample of level 70 mobs."

Oh hey, I was a little off, looks like the average hps of a level 50 mob is more like 12,000. Thanks again.

I figured we were talking about exp groups, which would make your graph irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the average level 50 mob has a certain amount of hp, because exping off of mobs with that amount of hp is inefficient. Are you denying that there are blue mobs (all the way to 60) with less than half that amount of hp?

Giegue, you making bad assumptions.

Obviously you can get to L60 without ever fighting a L50 mob. But you are losing out on most of the best loot in the game: HS South and the Chef/Crypt/Shroom areas of Sebilis all have L50 trash mobs. And the XP is actually quite good if you have good dps (250+ = kills every 40 seconds). This is not hard if you form a solid group (warrior 60/rogue 90/chain pulling monk 40/enchanter 100/shaman 0/ cleric 0 = 290). Of course you won't get there with (paladin 30/mage 60/wizard 20/druid 20/bard 30/cleric 0 = 140).

These loot-ridden L50 mobs have 10k hp. Go parse any mob that hits for 140 if you don't believe me. This is precisely the reason that they are harder. 4 low 40s lava duct crawlers will be blue at 60 but they aren't going to wipe any high 50s group, because with their 4-5k hp they'll die fast. It's precisely the L50 mobs with their higher resists, HP, damage, etc. that are actually dangerous.

Right, I know all this. But clearly if you're in it just for the loot, dps isnt really that big of a deal. If you're in it for loot *and* experience, your point is valid. I just felt that your example was a bit of a red herring since if a player is willingly exping off of mobs with 10K hp, they've already make a decision that they won't be getting very fast exp. But I see why someone would still want mediocre exp over terrible exp, and hence would still choose a rogue over a wizard, so what you're saying is fair.

[Slave]

Where exactly are these magical experience spots that high level groups use to chain pull mobs with 4-5000 hps?

[Ikonoclastia]

I think a lot of people don't like wizards because they themselves are just plain bad players.

"If you have a wizard you're going to need an evac" - what does that say about you and your group? U / It sucks. No group should fail simply because a lower dps class is added. If one of your DPS goes LD you should still be able to function till they get back, if you can't you should probably xp somewhere else.

[Lazortag]

Where exactly are these magical experience spots that high level groups use to chain pull mobs with 4-5000 hps?

It's too bad I didn't say exactly where these magical experience spots are, in great detail, in a previous post.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=616887&postcount=49

Seriously though, have you never been inside howling stones?

[Slave]

Seriously though, have you never been inside howling stones?

You mean the zone where there is currently one player? Good example! Really in line with the rest of your misdirection.

[inyane]

eh, if we are going to talk utility, i'll take a druid over a wizard any day.

evacs, snare, root, buffs/regen/resists, heals, ds, dots, and nukes that are almost as mana efficient as a wizard.

1615 for 450 wiz 3.6
1024 for 320 dru 3.2

as pointed out, where you really need the wizards is in velious, and lure nukes.

[Slave]

as pointed out, where you really need the wizards is in velious, and lure nukes.

Lure nukes will only get you a lower mana-to-dps conversion rate, and you fall even farther behind on the damage over time calculation. If you blow your whole mana bar of 3250 with level 60 Lure of Ice, congratulations, you've just done 8250 hps out of 400,000 on that Velious boss.

[Ikonoclastia]

Lure nukes will only get you a lower mana-to-dps conversion rate, and you fall even farther behind on the damage over time calculation. If you blow your whole mana bar of 3250 with level 60 Lure of Ice, congratulations, you've just done 8250 hps out of 400,000 on that Velious boss.
i think its more important how fast the damage was done and at what stage, wizards burning down a boss when he's reaching 30% or less is pretty damn important yeah?

[Slave]

i think its more important how fast the damage was done and at what stage, wizards burning down a boss when he's reaching 30% or less is pretty damn important yeah?

At a certain point, mob regeneration will outdo your raid's dps. Generally the tougher the mob, the more dps is required just to overcome that regeneration. A rogue, or monk, or warrior, or ranger, or heck, even a shaman pet will do more to bring a mob to the point of defeat, than a Wizard. I don't deny there are nasty monsters and gods that do things like rampage or switch AOEs at a certain point, but that is something with certain raids and constant dps is something that is useful for every raid.

[Splorf22]

Right, I know all this. But clearly if you're in it just for the loot, dps isnt really that big of a deal. If you're in it for loot *and* experience, your point is valid. I just felt that your example was a bit of a red herring since if a player is willingly exping off of mobs with 10K hp, they've already make a decision that they won't be getting very fast exp. But I see why someone would still want mediocre exp over terrible exp, and hence would still choose a rogue over a wizard, so what you're saying is fair.

Giegue, my point is that if a group is at, say, the Chardok fort and killing mostly mid 40s mobs, they will never get in trouble, and there will never be a chance for the wizard to show their supposed group-saving skills. On the other hand, if they are at, say, HS south, the mobs will mathematically have too much HP for them to burn down more than one at most, which leaves evac. And yes, evac is nice, but if you had an enchanter instead of a wizard you wouldn't have needed to evac anyway.

Also, its quite possible to get great XP from L50 mobs like HS south or the Chef/Bar area. You just have to have great dps, i.e. lots of rogues and monks and an enchanter with a charmed pet. Have you ever taken a group that parsed 250 dps to these areas?

[Splorf22]

Lure nukes will only get you a lower mana-to-dps conversion rate, and you fall even farther behind on the damage over time calculation. If you blow your whole mana bar of 3250 with level 60 Lure of Ice, congratulations, you've just done 8250 hps out of 400,000 on that Velious boss.

IIRC Wizards get 5:1 unresistable nukes for giants and dragons in Velious. If we give them 50 mana/tick from c2+bardsong+meditation, thats 250 damage/tick, plus the initial 15-20k from burning their manapool. So for a 15 minute fight, thats 150 * 250 + 18,000 / 900 = 62 dps, which feels pretty comparable to what a rogue would do, and they don't need healers either if they can nuke in between aoes.

And in Kunark of course, wizards blow everyone else away.

[Slave]

Also, its quite possible to get great XP from L50 mobs like HS south or the Chef/Bar area. You just have to have great dps, i.e. lots of rogues and monks and an enchanter with a charmed pet. Have you ever taken a group that parsed 250 dps to these areas?

And you are never going to reach those kind of dps targets when you are carrying a Wizard.

[Slave]

IIRC Wizards get 5:1 unresistable nukes for giants and dragons in Velious. If we give them 50 mana/tick from c2+bardsong+meditation, thats 250 damage/tick, plus the initial 15-20k from burning their manapool. So for a 15 minute fight, thats 150 * 250 + 18,000 / 900 = 62 dps, which feels pretty comparable to what a rogue would do, and they don't need healers either if they can nuke in between aoes.

And in Kunark of course, wizards blow everyone else away.

Sorry Splorf but you're assuming things under absolutely perfect conditions that just don't exist. Just for starters, those uber nuke spells are 450 mana per 2000 damage which is not 5:1. Furthermore, those nukes take 6 seconds to cast, preventing meditation during those cast times.

And in Kunark of course, wizards blow everyone else away.
Up till Velious, I agree that Wizards are extremely powerful in raids.

[Scavrefamn]

Maybe they should add Wizard innate spell crits to this server for balance purposes...


/cough

[Bohab]

my rogue's weapons don't run oom

[Broot]

* Edit * Just realized the numbers on the wiki are conflicting. The 50+ rains all have 4.7~ damage / mana using the lowest damage values given on the wiki.

Tears of Solusek is 4.74 damage / mana on a single mob.

Tears of Prexus is 6.15 damage / mana on a single mob.

Increased chance of resists, but if we are theory crafting here Wizard rains are insanely mana efficient.

[fischsemmel]

[Wizards do] 150 * 250 + 18,000 / 900 [dps.]

Sure would be nice if wizards actually did 37,520 dps.

[Slave]

* Edit * Just realized the numbers on the wiki are conflicting. The 50+ rains all have 4.7~ damage / mana using the lowest damage values given on the wiki.

Tears of Solusek is 4.74 damage / mana on a single mob.

Tears of Prexus is 6.15 damage / mana on a single mob.

Increased chance of resists, but if we are theory crafting here Wizard rains are insanely mana efficient.

You are incorrectly assuming how Rains work. They have a maximum of 2 waves for 1 target at this stage in the timeline. Therefore, you are getting 3.16 ratio on Prexus and 3.16 for Solusek, according to the spell data on the Wiki.

[Grozmok]

Sure would be nice if wizards actually did 37,520 dps.

Raid mobs would die in seconds.

:D

[Broot]

You are incorrectly assuming how Rains work. They have a maximum of 2 waves for 1 target at this stage in the timeline. Therefore, you are getting 3.16 ratio on Prexus and 3.16 for Solusek, according to the spell data on the Wiki.

Whoops, thought they still hit 3 times. Not quite to 52 on my Wiz yet.

[Splorf22]

Sure would be nice if wizards actually did 37,520 dps.

Holy shit, I've never seen an order of operations nazi on the forums before.

[kazroth]

Holy shit, I've never seen an order of operations nazi on the forums before.

If you're going to make that a proper noun you damn well better capitalize it! ;)

[Slave]

Whoops, thought they still hit 3 times. Not quite to 52 on my Wiz yet.

Still not sure how you ended up with different ratio values, too.

[Slave]

If you're going to make that a proper noun you damn well better capitalize it! ;)

No pi for joo!!

[Grozmok]

<3

[fadetree]

the term for someone who pays attention to order of mathematical operations :

Correct

[Broot]

Still not sure how you ended up with different ratio values, too.

Got a bit confused because the damage in the top descriptions don't match the numbers in the bottom descriptions.

E.g. - Tears of searing magic fall in three waves, causing 698 damage to all creatures in the vicinity of your target.

then at the bottom

1 : Decrease Hitpoints by 600

I was assuming they still hit 3 times. Which we know is wrong. But (3 x 600) / 380 vs. (3x680) / 380 caused the ratio troubles.

[Glasken]

the term for someone who pays attention to order of mathematical operations :

Correct

This.

[Slave]

Not quite to 52 on my Wiz yet.

There are plenty of Rain spells before level 52.

[Splorf22]

Next time I'll be sure to make all my forum posts in Latex, just to make you guys happy.

*boggle*

[Slave]

Next time I'll be sure to make all my forum posts in Latex, just to make you guys happy.

*boggle*

If anyone understood this (joke?), please PM me.

I think I get it: Nazis are German, and Germans are known for black latex nightclubs! yesssss

[Lazortag]

If anyone understood this (joke?), please PM me.

I think I get it: Nazis are German, and Germans are known for black latex nightclubs! yesssss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX

[Slave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX

I didn't get it!! aaarrgg

Actually I liked mine better.

[Psionide]

I don't understand. Where's the resoirvoir?

[Psionide]

ohhh nvm I thought we were talking about the germaninvented spray on latex condoms my bad....