Sneak and CoS Pulling (Monks/Necros/SKs)

[Treats]

Sneak Pulling on P99

Monk

Monk aggros mobs
Feigns Death and waits for them all to turn their backs
Performs a successful Sneak and instantly clears hate list on every mob

Necro/SK

Necro/Sk aggros mobs
Feigns Death and waits
Necro/SK Hides and instantly clears hate list on all mobs


For Monks it should not work like this. The only chance you have at clearing aggro from all mobs is if and ONLY if your Feign successfully blurs each of them. Sneak only reduces aggro range, it DOES NOT act as a mem blur if you allready have aggro.

For Necros/SKs it should not work like this either. After you have pulled a bunch of mobs and then Hide it will only drop aggro on all mobs if you successfully blurred each of them with your feign.

There is a good read here on Monkly Business and how it works. Never once is it mentioned that you can aggro a bunch of mobs and then feign and sneak to drop all aggro on the first try.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8889

Autumn, what he said was sneak, then stand up from the feign and con the mob going back. If it's indiff, it memblurred. If it glares/scowls (assuming it's not an always scowls mob), it's time to hit the dirt.



I use this all the time. The sneak isn't memblurring you, the sneak is checking if you memblurred.



On lvl31- mobs (It's 32+ that don't always memblur, not 35), you can sneak and stand up as soon as they turn around to go back, saving you a little time.

Zenthan, I really like the idea in you post but I don't think it confirms a successful Mem'blur. Much as an inviso cast on someone FD doesn't remove them from the hate list. That one ( the inviso while FD to distance agro pull ) I have played around with and has been a great long distance pull method. ie argo roamer, have someone outside agro range inviso you, get up run and then drop inviso and mob is off like a shot after you ( with old world agro, Kunark and Veli agro has the lazy arse mob factor as I call it, things that are still agro'ed on you but won't waste the energy to beat on you unless you get back into a decent range where they don't have to run as far ).


I believe in another thread here someone also said that Evade was completely clearing all damage, it should not be like this with that skill either.

[Treats]

Bump, any thoughts/info/other research on this?

[kanras]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26385

That's when it was added for CoS. It was extended to sneak when I optimized and enabled sneak pulling. I've done a decent amount of digging and found no time-relevant evidence that this was a valid tactic either.

[Treats]

Read the other thread about CoS pulling, at the top there is this:


"See now theres this thing, ya all seem to think the coolest part of this is being able to invis while something is standing over you right after standing up from feign and it not getting agro...yer missing the BEST part. The invis is FASTER then that, if you time it JUST right (hitting stand and invis buttons at ALMOST the exact same time...) and said mob doesnt see invis....it will never register you stood up at all until invis breaks. you go from conning indif to conning indif so fast it thinks yer still feigned. lets say the mob is a roamer, prior to the feign death changes it would never have forgotten about you no matter how long you stayed feigned. if you stood up and cast a normal invis, even if its not near you, it will damn sure remember you and come running soon as its near ya, but if you use a prenerf CoS, it will think yer still feigned as long as the invis holds up...very handy for making quick getaways prior to the feign death changes....not so much anymore"


Seems like this is how it should be working:

Necro/SK aggroes a pack of mobs
Necro/SK Feigns Death
Necro/SK stands and instantly does Circlet

All mobs that were aggro are under the impression that the Necro/SK is still Feigned (Even though now the player is just Invisible)

If at any point before the mobs return to their static spawn points the Necro/SK's Invis is dropped they will see the Necro/SK as standing up and breaking their Feign

In addition this should NEVER work on a roaming mob (Unless a succesful mem blur was performed on Feign)
It will never go back to a static spawn point to completely mem blur
As soon as the Necro/SK drops Invis that roamer will reaggro and bring every other mob it sees along the way
The only way to remove the aggro on this is to zone, die, feign death and exit, or camp

Hiding after Feigning should also work the same way.

Another possible scenario:

Necro/SK aggroes a pack of mobs
Necro/SK Feigns Death
Necro/SK Hides
Necro/SK stands up
Necro/SK casts Circlet

Mobs should behave the same way still under the impression that the Necro/SK is feigned (Even though they invis'd twice)
Should not drop all aggro unless mobs are static and back at their spawn points when Invis is dropped or a successful mem wipe was performed on every mob while feigning

[Xadion]

are you having a crusade against pulling? the way things work here are about 95% accurate as to the way they where on live...

as for not finding posts etc about it... back in "the day" not many people talked openly about it in fear if it getting nerfed (and it wasn't until i believe end of luclin) - I wish shadowknight.org worked on the wayback :-(

[Treats]

Bump

[anotherfiz]

Xadion - a war against easy pulling that is semi-broken maybe.

Why are there two threads about this? The answer is simple:

Invis and sneak should not aid FD in memblurring, period.

Invis pulling should work on most mobs that dont have faction linked, ie VP and dragons, Frog King through dead side. It should NOT work in situations like Chardok, sebilis, or any of the other crap i see people doing. (Single pulling Emp chottal through his room solo is possible, because chottle is on a different faction than the skeletons)

[Nirgon]

Stuff like this is directly related to fungi's flooding the market etc. It was tested on EQ Mac as well and proved that invis should not be affecting a mob's ability to make a bring a friend check.

[Zeelot]

EQmac is on PoP timeline though. That's post velious and beyond where this server is going. Testing something there doesn't mean it's the way it should be here. Yeah a lot of things are useful to reference because on EQmac because it is the earliest version of EQ available to us to compare, but the timeline is still different.

[Nirgon]

I'd say this sticks unless someone can show us the patch note where it was changed for Luclin / PoP. Nasty bug and broken mechanic.

[uygi]

I'd say this sticks unless someone can show us the patch note where it was changed for Luclin / PoP. Nasty bug and broken mechanic.

You need to stop making these posts.

[Nirgon]

Okay I'll rephrase.

"Given that this does not happen on a classic PoP server (EQ Mac), please find us the patch note where this was changed past Kunark or Velious. Otherwise, it needs to be fixed."

[Splorf22]

From Treats' guide:


4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.


So according to this monks and rogues can instantly split any camp with 0 risk.

[Samrothstein]

If you have someone cast invisibility on you while a mob is chasing you and it runs past other mobs, those should train. That's the point that is being addressed.

[Treats]

From Treats' guide:



So according to this monks and rogues can instantly split any camp with 0 risk.

Not on here you can't.

Projectile items have basically no flight time.

Not really sure why you posted this.

As it is right now with Sneak, Monks can split any camp on P99 with 0 risk, just as you stated...

Pull a camp
Feign Death
Hit Sneak
Wait until all mobs backs are turned
Hit one with sneak engaged = single pull

[Splorf22]

Did you read my quote from the guide? The author doesn't even do FD splits any more because all he/she (damn manginas!) has to do is walk up to a mob, hit sneak, watch their social/threat radius shrink, and use a ranged weapon on one of them.

That sounds a lot easier than what goes on now. Splitting melee is easy, yes, but casters can still cause problems. And it should be even harder if resisted spells broke FD which I understand they should.

[Treats]

Did you read my quote from the guide? The author doesn't even do FD splits any more because all he/she (damn manginas!) has to do is walk up to a mob, hit sneak, watch their social/threat radius shrink, and use a ranged weapon on one of them.

That sounds a lot easier than what goes on now. Splitting melee is easy, yes, but casters can still cause problems. And it should be even harder if resisted spells broke FD which I understand they should.

I don't think this is as easy as you think it is. In order to get a single pull aggro range is only partly reduced on mobs facing you doing this type of "Sneak pull". You cannot just walk up to a mob if you are not in another mob's rear arc. You will get aggro on the mob that is facing you if you get too close.

You will only get the reduced aggro assist radius from Sneak on the targeted mob your are trying to pull if his back is turned. If another mob is facing you the aggro range is only partly reduced on that mob.

The reason why this works is because you are out of aggro range of the mob that IS facing you but behind the mob you want to pull. When you pull the mob that has his back turned, his assist range is reduced and the other will not aggro as long as you are still outside of the aggro range.

Anyway, this is why it should be very difficult to perform here.

You had to be extremely good to pull this off because as soon as you fired a projectile your Sneak was off and normal assist/aggro radius applied.

Sneak disengaged before this patch when you were hit or hit by something(Referencing my previous post about the projectile system):

Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020508.html

One other note on this:

I am unsure how it worked before this patch when you would Sneak while using a projectile.

Player Sneaks
Player shoots projectile -- Sneak disengages as soon as its thrown

OR

Player Sneaks
Player shoots projectile -- Sneak disengages only if target is actually hit

[Splorf22]

Yeah on my monk twink I use sneak all the time, for example the mob in the pit at Mistmoore that is facing the other direction. However, if you reread the quote:


With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.


that doesn't sound like something that only works under very limited circumstances. But maybe she just always grouped with another monk or something. A couple other interesting quotes:


I think a few posts mention the use of Sneak to help drop agro after FD.

I can't prove that it works but at lvl 55 I use this method all of the time. I FD, after the mob walks away I sneak and then stand up. For some reason I believe my odds are much better that the agro will drop (or memory wipe or whatever its called).

This is probably my most popluar use of sneak and I have it hot buttoned next to my FD button as I use it all the time.



SOLB, King Room (where targin spawns)



at 40 just walk by the room and you will aggro 2 or 3 mobs in there

at 45 sneak to the bottom of the ramp, throw a shuriken at the first spawn and bring back one (go ahead and try it with sneak off and you will aggro more than one)

at 46 sneak to the middle of the ramp (and you can single pull every mob with a shuriken, moving to the far right to gank the mob sitting on the throne)

at 47 sneak to the top of the ramp and single pull with shuriken

at 48 no sneak required just walk to middle of ramp, throw shuriken (the first two mobs will come in singles without needing to throw anything at them, I experimneted with 'hailing' them as well)


Unfortunately I think people just didn't have a clear idea of the mechanics of FD/sneak/etc back then.

[Nirgon]

You could actually single pull based off of level alone in some cases. Frogloks at seb entrance were a good example if they weren't boks.

^ Needs research obviously but I'm giving you a direction to go in.

[kanras]

NPCs will only remove PCs from feign memory on successful blur rolls, pending update. As before, Invis/Sneak/Hide will still prevent re-aggro while they're up, but once they are broken the PC is fair game.

[Xadion]

also note on live with fd that when the mobs got back to their spawn point there was a certain chance (or full%) of forgetting, also there was a chance for full mem wipe on fd and it was per mob.. Sometimes I would pull 5 mobs fd, let them wonder back (mob return to home timers where not always the same, so sometimes 3 would stay, 1 would return instantly and a few would be between instantly returning and awaiting the 'max' time to go home)

anywho I could stand, insta invs, break invs for reagro on nonmemwiped, invs and let the 2 or so come back, re fd...rinse and repeated till 1.

[Daliant17447]

> November 16th, 4:30pm
> ---------------------
>
> Feign Death was recently changed by the Tuning Team to reflect evolving
> gameplay issues. Since two of the three classes that get Feign Death get
it
> through spells, I thought this might be a good place to explain the
changes.
>
> Previously, when you used Feign Death (and assuming you cast the spell
> successfully or, in the case of the Monk, made your skill roll) hostile
> monsters would decided that you were dead and wander off. When you later
> got up, they would still remember that they were angry with you. If you
> were within sight, they would immediately come after you. If not, they
> would come after you at some later point. This might happen within a few
> minutes, or could happen even a few hours later. The only way to be
> absolutely sure that a monster had forgotten about you was to zone.
>
> With our new changes, about a third of the time that you successfully
Feign
> Death, the monster will immediately forget about you, similar to an
> Enchanter casting Memory Blur. If they do NOT forget about you, they will
> immediately come after you when you stand up. No more monsters coming
back
> at irregular amounts of time - it should be immediate or not at all.
>
> This is a change - the old way, if you Feigned Death a SINGLE TIME, the
> monster would ALWAYS remember you. This way, they remember you about
> two-thirds of the time.
>
> Using the old Feign Death, you could Feign Death multiple times to try to
> confuse the monster. After about seven or eight times doing this, most
> monsters would eventually forget they were mad at you.
>
> With the new Feign Death, if you Feign Death once the monster has about a
65
> percent chance of remembering you. Twice and the monster has about a 50
> percent chance of remembering you. Four times means about 20 percent, and
> six times means about 8 percent. This is very similar to the old Feign
> Death.
>
> Another addition to the new Feign Death involves a monster "going home."
> When you Feign Death, most monsters will return to where they were before
> the fight. If a monster returns to its initial location, it will
> immediately forget about you greater then 90 percent of the time.
> Therefore, if you Feign Death and stay down long enough for a monster to
"go
> home," you should be safe when you stand up a majority of the time. If
the
> monster IS still mad at you, it will return immediately, rather then
> wandering back later at some irregular interval.
>
>
> *FEIGN DEATH UPDATE*
>
> After further testing and watching these changes on the Live verses the
Test
> Server, we will bechanging Feign Death again on the next patch.
>
> New changes will make it so that if the creature is less than level 35,
the
> monster will always forget about you. If the creature greater then level
35,
> then the monster will use the changes detailed above.
>
> - The EverQuest Team

[Xadion]

Yeah....what dalliant lover of ice cave techno dancers said!

whats the date on that Nov patch?

see: my thoughts above are not random shit :-P I remebered stuff correctly gold star for me! lolz

[Daliant17447]

Pretty sure its from Nov 99

[Infested]

It was 1999. It actually went live with the dec 1st patch though:

------------------------------
December 1, 1999 7:00am
------------------------------

The following changes and enhancements have been introduced with the
latest patch:

*Monk Enhancements*
-The Feign Death changes which were mentioned on November 16th are now
live.

[Xadion]

ahh thanks, so...when this gets pushed it should function as posted and ref in the above patch notes.

[Treats]

More info here also from a Q&A that Gordon did:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.games.everquest/SsveEiscx_c

This was a reply by gordon to some questions that was posted on a
www
char site. It is sufficiently informative that i deemed it
worthwhile
to post here.

My comments are interspersed.

> Gordon
> Well, here's my reply to the various issues I've seen brought
up. I
> think I've covered the majority of them that weren't already
> addressed by Brad

> >>> Why was feign death changed?

> Feign death was broken, and there were 2 bugs at work.

> 1. When you successfully feigned, you were never removed from
the creatures hate list unless you feigned 7 times.
> 2. However, the creature would not remember that it hated you
until it engaged something else.

> Example: Bob the Monk attacks a guard. Bob runs away and
feigns. The Guard says áOh, he just fell over deadá
> and goes back to his spawn point. Bob gets up and starts
chatting with the Guard. The Guard says, áOne second
> Bob, I have to go kill this moss snakeá.*kills snake*á Er,
Bob, didnát you attack me a bit ago? Monks like you
> have ruined your own lands, youáll not ruin mine!á

> The first change to Feign Death fixed bug #2. The down side to
this was that the first bug became apparent.
> Anything that was feigned on would instantly remember the monk
when he stood back up. This caused a ton of
> problems so a set of changes was put in to effect the
following:

> 1. Creatures level 31 or below will always forget you (100%)
if youáve successfully feigned and they miss their
> ásee through feigná skill check (same check existed before).
> 2. Creatures 32 or above will always (100%) forget you if
theyáve returned to their spawn point.
> 2a. If they havenát yet returned to their spawn point, they
have a good chance to forget you.
> 3. Roamers (creatures without spawnpoints) have a good chance
to forget you.

> So, the bottom line:

> Before, if you feigned on something, and ran off to do
something else, it would come running after you the moment
> it got done fighting something else, and was libel to bring
the entire zone with it, at any point up until the time you
> zoned. The upside of this was that if you were in the only
group fighting in an area, the chances of this happening
> was rather small. You could also feign multiple times until
you got a single critter from a group.

> After, if something is going to remember you, it is going to
remember you right away. Itás still libel to bring the
> entire zone, but you might be able to get it off of you for
good by feigning multiple times. The downside is that
> your chance of successfully getting rid of a critter is tied
exponentially to the number of critters of which you are
> trying to lose. For instance, if you are feigning on 1
critter, you will get rid of it for good in an average of 2
feigns.
> With 2 critters on you, itáll take an average of 5 feigns.
With 3 itás 13.

> Thatás the long answer. To answer the questions concisely, the
bug with feign death was noticed and fixed because
> Monks were able to pull singles from places that they should,
per game design, have needed an enchanter, druid, or
> the like.

> >>> WHY do necro pets stay alive after a necro feigns?

> Good question. Iáve heard of the cheesy tactic of the
charm/dot/feign. Weáre considering fixing this so that the pet
> behaves as if the owner had went invisible. That means that a
skele pet would commit suicide, and a charmed pet
> would turn on the necro. What do you think? Weád like to get
input before making the change.

> >>>Why were they so broken that THE CENTRAL ability of the
class had to be removed. For monks, it was as
> bad as removing "bind anywhere" from mages.

> I disagree that feign death was the central ability of Monks.
I believe that their central ability is to be a melee class
> that was 90% effective while naked.

It was pointed out in the thread this article was written in that
this is
not true. Even if it was true, the central ability of any class
resting
on the fact it leaves a pretty corpse is darn lame.

> >>>The effect of individual saving throws means you can no
longer feign against groups.

> Well, it depends on the size of the group, but yes, you are
basically right. FD was supposed to be a spell that
> allowed a Monk to save their own life, not to be used as an
offensive measure. As a life-saving maneuver, FD is
> still very effective.

Forgetting the fact that this is now useless for saving you life
if there is
a group of mobs attacking you, ie. most of the time.

[Nirgon]

This was a super hot topic re: charmed/summoned pets and necros solo'ing the ghoul lord room in classic (FD->keep pet).

[Raavak]

This was a super hot topic re: charmed/summoned pets and necros solo'ing the ghoul lord room in classic (FD->keep pet).
Weren't necros soloing the room while afk? Musta been nice to go to school/work and come back max 50 or w.e it was at the time.

[Nirgon]

Part of it was that you could just charm something, throw it at lord, watch it die while FD'd so yes.

Part 2 was how murderous the 49 pet was when wielding fine steel daggers. It took the delay from the daggers but not a change in damage. It was spamming out stupid dmg. So that was another fix. I won't even get into the mage vs necro vs wizard raid debate when wizards didn't have ice comet. Simply put, pet classes were just too godly, the necro having charm (for a time not undead only) was ridics.

[Nirgon]

NPCs will only remove PCs from feign memory on successful blur rolls, pending update. As before, Invis/Sneak/Hide will still prevent re-aggro while they're up, but once they are broken the PC is fair game.

Hope this bad boy makes it in.

[Sunderfury]

Resolving as I believe this was implemented long ago and tweaked for level disparities between PC / NPC.