still: outdoor zone aggro should not require line of sight

[DoucLangur]

I would like to request once again that outdoor zone aggro is patched to not require line of sight, but merely a certain range. OR - maybe I am misunderstanding the causes here: that PoHate is patched to not require LoS, and z-axis threshold where aggro can happen is increased (in OT) - see below examples.

Two examples where this is changing the game a *lot*:

Example 1:
PoHate breakin is still trivial because the portin is safe. I do so enjoy doing 1-group action in PoHate, but it is not classic - as all of you remember who raided hate back then.

Example 2:
The "a skeleton worker" (non quest) in OT outpost below the portin boat from OT hammer should aggro

There are two mobs with the same name - the one on boat is indiff, the one below it is on VenrilSathir faction. These NPCs are both implemented correctly on p1999, however the VS one currently does not aggro KoS people when they port in. I always got attacked by this NPC with my human monk on live, upon porting in. Sadly this was past velious release, so I don't have any timeline proof, but I am pretty sure that it is related to the outdoor zones not requiring line of sight for mobs to aggro (or in this case maybe it is the z-axis treshhold for non-aggro being too low, since some mobs aggro through building walls in OT)

The reason that this changes the game significantly is because once you had aggro from that worker, it would get assisted by the dragoons if they were in the outpost, since they have an enormous aggro range. Nowadays on p1999 everyone and their imaginary friend uses OT hammer for safe transportation. On EQlive, it was something that either required FD, or a high enough level / fast enough character that you could escape the wrath of the outpost guards. Well - or good Venril Sathir faction.

[nilbog]

I'm still on board with this.

Proposal:
Non-dungeon outdoor zone npcs should not consider LOS for aggro.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54864

[Treats]

Example 2:
The "a skeleton worker" (non quest) in OT outpost below the portin boat from OT hammer should aggro

There are two mobs with the same name - the one on boat is indiff, the one below it is on VenrilSathir faction. These NPCs are both implemented correctly on p1999, however the VS one currently does not aggro KoS people when they port in. I always got attacked by this NPC with my human monk on live, upon porting in. Sadly this was past velious release, so I don't have any timeline proof, but I am pretty sure that it is related to the outdoor zones not requiring line of sight for mobs to aggro (or in this case maybe it is the z-axis treshhold for non-aggro being too low, since some mobs aggro through building walls in OT)

The reason that this changes the game significantly is because once you had aggro from that worker, it would get assisted by the dragoons if they were in the outpost, since they have an enormous aggro range. Nowadays on p1999 everyone and their imaginary friend uses OT hammer for safe transportation. On EQlive, it was something that either required FD, or a high enough level / fast enough character that you could escape the wrath of the outpost guards. Well - or good Venril Sathir faction.

Right now on P1999 if you do aggro the KoS worker below the boat the other guards will not assist.

Assist aggro on that NPC must be too low or something (due to level maybe).

[Splorf22]

I checked this out. Maybe the guard is under the wrong boat? There are two boats, the hammer spot is on the west one and the guard is on the east side of the east boat. He's probably just out of aggro range even without LoS.

NM, there is indeed another guard under the west boat. He's probably in aggro range.

[Treats]

Bumping this, need more evidence to implement?

[Nirgon]

Hm does a skeleton not aggro through a tree for instance here?

[Treats]

Hm does a skeleton not aggro through a tree for instance here?

Dunno about a tree, but building/wall/terrain no aggro.

[Nirgon]

Ah yes, like the guard aggroing through the inns in East Commons! True true. Probably want to make sure they assist through it as well out doors, not only intial aggro.

[roks1]

This isn't the only thing -- all spells should go through walls in outdoor zones including monster AOEs and PC spells. So you can hit that stupid mummy through the sand dunes in NRo etc.

In other words, there was never any hiding from aoe's in the outdoors -- a bigger issue when it comes to outdoor dragons including sontalak, klandicar, and wuoshi in the future, and in an even worse case of utter gimpification, hiding from Ail the Elder's silence ae and so on. You can go down the list really, but it's a really important issue.

Bottom line - rule of the thumb is -- if you can SoW, you can't hide!

[SamwiseRed]

Bottom line - rule of the thumb is -- if you can SoW, you can't hide!

wouldnt this turn unrest into a nightmare if undead could agro thru walls?

note: some already do. for example as you are going in the house you take a right, if you go down that first allway the 3 ghouls in the room to the right will agro thru wall/door. i couldnt imagine all of unrest like this. you wouldnt even be able to go into the house without agroing half the first floor.

[nilbog]

wouldnt this turn unrest into a nightmare if undead could agro thru walls?


That's the way it should be. Unrest was grand central station.

People still talking about this in 2003:
4) Know the map and the location of other mobs in relation to your camp

Unrest is a little different than your normal outdoor area since the house has 5 different levels to it. Monster WILL attack through walls and floors so unless you take precautions, not only will you pull your desired targets but those of mobs above, below and to the side of you.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=62
How does it work on eqmac?

[SamwiseRed]

dunno i went there on eqmac and there is like 2x the undead in the house. was too crazy for me solo so i left. ill try now that i have a 42 monk.

[nilbog]

dunno i went there on eqmac and there is like 2x the undead in the house. was too crazy for me solo so i left. ill try now that i have a 42 monk.

Likely missing spawns for us. Since the npcs aggro through walls, but you claim it would aggro half the floor.. it should be testable standing in one area here, and one area there to see how many npcs chain aggro. (with a character of the same level of course). It is further possible their assist radius could be lower than their aggro radius, therefore creating smaller linked trains.

[SamwiseRed]

hmm fireplace room had 3 spawns instead of 1. torklar battlemaster (removed from p99?) definitely agroed thru the floor. hmm i need to get an even con in here to really test tho.

[roks1]

wouldnt this turn unrest into a nightmare if undead could agro thru walls?

note: some already do. for example as you are going in the house you take a right, if you go down that first allway the 3 ghouls in the room to the right will agro thru wall/door. i couldnt imagine all of unrest like this. you wouldnt even be able to go into the house without agroing half the first floor.

You wanna know what was even more of a hilarious nightmare? When you get aggro through the ceiling in Hate. =)))) That's some fun shit right there my man.

[SamwiseRed]

ya thats what i was thinking. i never messed with unrest when i played. i always leveled Oasis > highpass > highkeep. i do remember hearing it was train city but seems like if undead could agro thru walls then trying to get into the house would be hell.

[SamwiseRed]

small differences in spawns

fireplace has 3 undead instead of just one
http://i.imgur.com/VIrAi0V.jpg

2 spawns in left room (as you walk into house) instead of just 1
http://i.imgur.com/KiloZ6A.jpg

2 spawns in right room instead of one (as you walk into house)
http://i.imgur.com/y5Cuo0M.jpg

there was more roamers as well but not sure how to prove that. probably more differences but i gotta log for a few. i guess ill make a new thread later today if you think these SS are enough evidence to indicate we are missing spawns.

edit: anyone know where Torklar Battlemaster used to spawn before he was taken out? No idea where he came from but he def agroed me thru wall, ceiling or floor.
http://i.imgur.com/mPIJ5JD.jpg

[Handull]

I spent forever in unrest on live, once during Kunark and once later on a progression server. I remeber Torklar spawned on the first floor. Walk in the front doors, then go down the right hallway around the main room. The last opening on your right is where he could be found, in that little cubby that is empty on p99. Unfortunately my memory of things is clouded by having played the same class in the same zones both in real kunark and in progression kunark, so its hard to comment on # of spawns and agro, but his spawn loc i know for sure.

regarding the agro, when i played the zone was very very popular, usually with one or two groups per area, so during peak hours trains weren't so bad. if you went to the basement you were safe from all trains, unless you trained yourself. you never wanted to go near the walls of the house from the outside, and going in the front door was a surefire way to get killed unless it was camped, (edit: tho again I could have just been paranoid and avoided it after seeing/getting trained once). I remember pulling mobs out the back door, camping the magi room, and camping the basement. training out the 3rd floor balcony also rings a bell, tho not sure where I would have been camping for that

i don't think groups would often camp in the first floor, since doing so would mean all trains would hit you, and trains happened a lot. thats why the magi room and the backyard were great pull spots because other trains couldn't get you. also I wasn't a puller

again i could comment on spawns that i remember being there that p99 doesn't have, but i'm probably thinking of the progression server and not the real kunark era. for example I remember lavastorm being the revamped layout/graphics over the version we have on p99, which is for sure the way it should be.

[SamwiseRed]

ah that location makes sense then i guess i just agroed him when running by.i really need to bring a lvl 20 character here to really test the agro radius. maybe lower.

[Treats]

Likely missing spawns for us. Since the npcs aggro through walls, but you claim it would aggro half the floor.. it should be testable standing in one area here, and one area there to see how many npcs chain aggro. (with a character of the same level of course). It is further possible their assist radius could be lower than their aggro radius, therefore creating smaller linked trains.

I don't think they aggro through walls there. When I went there on EQMac I never had that problem. There was a lot more spawns in Unrest but I thought I remembered it receiving a revamp (when they added the crazed ghouls or something?) Maybe they could assist radius through walls but not straight aggro? That would be a nightmare in a zone like Karnors. Multi level places (Except cities) had to have some kind of protection -- Every time you walked over/under something you'd have a monster train.

How aggro should be determined in zones:

Outside Flagged zone -- No terrain/wall protection
Outside City Flagged Zone -- No terrain/wall protection
Outside Dungeon Flagged Zone -- All terrain/wall protection
Inside Flagged Zone -- All terrain/wall protection
Inside City Flagged Zone -- All terrain/wall protection
Inside Dungeon Flagged Zone -- All terrain/wall protection

I think that is all of them?

[SamwiseRed]

That's the way it should be. Unrest was grand central station.

People still talking about this in 2003:
How does it work on eqmac?

true but i think that was more because people were just newbs. i never witnessed unrest but i can tell you KC, Blackburrow, and CB were train central too. Blackburrow had some insane trains, I am still not even sure how they would train so many lol

[Handull]

true but i think that was more because people were just newbs. i never witnessed unrest but i can tell you KC, Blackburrow, and CB were train central too. Blackburrow had some insane trains, I am still not even sure how they would train so many lol

i can confirm that noob comment, as i had no idea what i was doing in this game back on live. even on progression four years later i was not a great player.

this change would be good for some zones for sure (fear, if nothing else), but would have to be done very carefully in others (com, kc, unrest, crushbone, etc, basically the outdoor dungeons)