Schortt
03-08-2012, 04:20 PM
The order of defensive checks seems to be off for a number of reasons. It currently seems to go something like this: Miss, Riposte, (Block/Parry/Dodge?), Hit.
The first thing that suggested this to me is that when using a defensive discipline that is supposed to trigger a 100% defensive skill check rate (whirlwind etc.), mobs in the correct position are still missing rather than being riposted, dodged, etc. My recollection from my Rogue on live was that when you used disciplines, especially the various riposte disciplines, you riposted EVERY hit that came your way, not just ones that didn't miss. This is not the case on P1999:[Wed Mar 07 15:24:56 2012] Your instincts take over as you turn aside every attack.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 136 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but a goblin taskmaster dodges!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 27 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 110 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 37 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 110 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 64 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 76 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 91 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 150 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 75 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 35 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin depredator for 152 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 72 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You kick a goblin taskmaster for 37 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] A goblin depredator tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 148 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 33 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You try to crush a goblin depredator, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 69 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] You mend your wounds and heal some damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] You crush a goblin depredator for 140 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but a goblin taskmaster parries!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] Your fury fades.
I have tried to find in-era data to back this up but have come up somewhat empty. However, lots of google searches have produced results from 2004+ that suggests that the following order is correct:when determining whether or not you are hit by an NPC, EQ goes through the calculation in this order:
Block, Riposte, Parry, Dodge, Shield Block, Miss
Sources: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16637.html
http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?p=192021
The order it checks is: Block, Riposte, Dodge, Miss
When your auto riposte disc is running, block still triggers but dodge doesn't.
When voiddance is running block,riposte,and dodge all can fire. so misses are checked last.
This is why increasing block rate can make it look like your miss rate is lowered.Source: http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-10739.html
So, if this information is correct for classic era combat, Warriors and Rogues should see nothing but ripostes when they use furious and counterattack, while monks should see a few blocks but mostly ripostes when using whirlwind. Likewise, defensive skill rates should stay the same regardless of the level of mob being fought, which they currently do not as miss checks first. Here's some parses to back that up:
Level 60 monk tanking Droga mobs:
Total damage: 9022
Avg hit: 33
Swings: 913
Defended: 103 (11.3%)
Hit: 266 (29.1%)
Missed: 544 (59.6%)
Accuracy: 32.8%
Dodged: 26 (3.1%)
Parried: 0 (0%)
Blocked: 59 (6.5%)
Riposted: 18 (2.1%)
Absorbed: 0 (0%)
369 non-misses, 103 defenses = 25.9% defense rate
Level 60 monk tanking Isle 3 mobs in Sky:
Total damage: 17392
Avg hit: 153
Swings: 214
Defended: 35 (16.4%)
Hit: 113 (52.8%)
Missed: 66 (30.8%)
Accuracy: 63.1%
Dodged: 7 (3.8%)
Parried: 0 (0%)
Blocked: 19 (8.9%)
Riposted: 9 (4.6%)
Absorbed: 0 (0%)
148 non-misses, 35 defenses = 24% defense rate
Notice that if you remove misses, the defensive skill rates are roughly the same.
This information could very well be based on some sort of change that was made post-classic that I wasn't around for (quit shortly after SoL released) but it does jive with my memory of using riposte disc on my rogue during classic. If other people remember differently or especially if anyone has parses of old discipline uses floating around that would be great. Likewise, if anyone has info on how this stuff works on EQMac that would be helpful.
I couldn't find any similar threads on the forums so if this has been discussed before, my apologies. I thought it was at least worth being brought up if for no other reason than that someone could set me straight!
The first thing that suggested this to me is that when using a defensive discipline that is supposed to trigger a 100% defensive skill check rate (whirlwind etc.), mobs in the correct position are still missing rather than being riposted, dodged, etc. My recollection from my Rogue on live was that when you used disciplines, especially the various riposte disciplines, you riposted EVERY hit that came your way, not just ones that didn't miss. This is not the case on P1999:[Wed Mar 07 15:24:56 2012] Your instincts take over as you turn aside every attack.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 136 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but a goblin taskmaster dodges!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 27 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 110 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 37 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 110 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 64 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 76 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 91 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 150 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 75 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 35 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin depredator for 152 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 72 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You kick a goblin taskmaster for 37 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] A goblin depredator tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 148 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 33 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You try to crush a goblin depredator, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 69 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] You mend your wounds and heal some damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] You crush a goblin depredator for 140 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but a goblin taskmaster parries!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] Your fury fades.
I have tried to find in-era data to back this up but have come up somewhat empty. However, lots of google searches have produced results from 2004+ that suggests that the following order is correct:when determining whether or not you are hit by an NPC, EQ goes through the calculation in this order:
Block, Riposte, Parry, Dodge, Shield Block, Miss
Sources: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-16637.html
http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?p=192021
The order it checks is: Block, Riposte, Dodge, Miss
When your auto riposte disc is running, block still triggers but dodge doesn't.
When voiddance is running block,riposte,and dodge all can fire. so misses are checked last.
This is why increasing block rate can make it look like your miss rate is lowered.Source: http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-10739.html
So, if this information is correct for classic era combat, Warriors and Rogues should see nothing but ripostes when they use furious and counterattack, while monks should see a few blocks but mostly ripostes when using whirlwind. Likewise, defensive skill rates should stay the same regardless of the level of mob being fought, which they currently do not as miss checks first. Here's some parses to back that up:
Level 60 monk tanking Droga mobs:
Total damage: 9022
Avg hit: 33
Swings: 913
Defended: 103 (11.3%)
Hit: 266 (29.1%)
Missed: 544 (59.6%)
Accuracy: 32.8%
Dodged: 26 (3.1%)
Parried: 0 (0%)
Blocked: 59 (6.5%)
Riposted: 18 (2.1%)
Absorbed: 0 (0%)
369 non-misses, 103 defenses = 25.9% defense rate
Level 60 monk tanking Isle 3 mobs in Sky:
Total damage: 17392
Avg hit: 153
Swings: 214
Defended: 35 (16.4%)
Hit: 113 (52.8%)
Missed: 66 (30.8%)
Accuracy: 63.1%
Dodged: 7 (3.8%)
Parried: 0 (0%)
Blocked: 19 (8.9%)
Riposted: 9 (4.6%)
Absorbed: 0 (0%)
148 non-misses, 35 defenses = 24% defense rate
Notice that if you remove misses, the defensive skill rates are roughly the same.
This information could very well be based on some sort of change that was made post-classic that I wasn't around for (quit shortly after SoL released) but it does jive with my memory of using riposte disc on my rogue during classic. If other people remember differently or especially if anyone has parses of old discipline uses floating around that would be great. Likewise, if anyone has info on how this stuff works on EQMac that would be helpful.
I couldn't find any similar threads on the forums so if this has been discussed before, my apologies. I thought it was at least worth being brought up if for no other reason than that someone could set me straight!