backstab aggro, evade etc

[Marglar]

rogues -

backstab generates a shit ton of aggro at lower levels (20ish atm). even if I hit it, and it misses, or does partial damage, it's nearly insta-taunt. even worse, evade seems to have no effect the majority of the time.

is it going to be this way until I'm with warriors that have hate producing procs or hybrid tanks? any light at the end of the tunnel? does evade become more effective with higher hide level? as is, I'm afraid to even backstab at times cause my ass is squishy.

thanks

[SearyxTZ]

What we had going was me (27 warrior) and Marglar (19 rogue). I use Exe Axe, he uses SBD.

I was doing much more damage but could not hold agro to save my life. This would include a missed backstab taking it away even while I'd land something like a 160 damage crit, mashing taunt whenever it was up. The 19 Bard was also stealing agro constantly. My dps was easily at the top of the list. 1h proc weapons were standard but they weren't necessary to hold agro in groups on live esp if you are also the primary damage dealer, so I do think taunt is weaker here. We were joking about it all night how I could hit those fuckers for like 200 spam taunt and still not take agro.

Since I'm not a PvE guy anyway, I don't really give a fuck. Much more concerned about the pvp resists.

[SearyxTZ]

also I think it mostly has to do with warrior taunt sucking dick just because you weren't the only -8 levels person stealing agro.



I'll go out on a limb here and guess that debuff spells are godlike in this regard and that the SK/PAL spam of disease cloud and flash of light accomplishes what taunt doesn't

[SanlavenTZ]

Evade wasn't initially something that could be performed by rogues in the Classic era, though I believe the effect was added sometime before Kunark was released. I don't think it works on this server at all, but reading posts on this board about the blue server seems to indicate that it works there.

[SearyxTZ]

We should test it out with a pal/sk tanking or maybe me using gnoll hide lariats.

The backstab agro pull did seem pretty extreme, though. It would make more sense if it was after a monstrous backstab number and not a missed hit.

[Salem Orchid]

From my understand spamming taunt does nothing, it just places you at the top of the hate list, and does not give you additional hate. So just save it for when the mobs not facing you.

With taunt capped on a 24SK it seems to pull agro.. 50%~ of the time, but I haven't really been paying that much attention. Been duo'ing as a rogue with an SK, and yeah, BS pretty much brings the agro everytime unless I let the SK fight down to 60%-70% with Disease cloud the whole time, and even then I can pull it back.

[Tassador]

great?

[Harrison]

What we had going was me (27 warrior) and Marglar (19 rogue). I use Exe Axe, he uses SBD.

I was doing much more damage but could not hold agro to save my life. This would include a missed backstab taking it away even while I'd land something like a 160 damage crit, mashing taunt whenever it was up. The 19 Bard was also stealing agro constantly. My dps was easily at the top of the list. 1h proc weapons were standard but they weren't necessary to hold agro in groups on live esp if you are also the primary damage dealer, so I do think taunt is weaker here. We were joking about it all night how I could hit those fuckers for like 200 spam taunt and still not take agro.

Since I'm not a PvE guy anyway, I don't really give a fuck. Much more concerned about the pvp resists.

BPA! BPA!

Mashing taunt doesn't do dick. You are only supposed to taunt when you lose aggro, not when you already have it.

[Knuckle]

rogues -

backstab generates a shit ton of aggro at lower levels (20ish atm). even if I hit it, and it misses, or does partial damage, it's nearly insta-taunt. even worse, evade seems to have no effect the majority of the time.

is it going to be this way until I'm with warriors that have hate producing procs or hybrid tanks? any light at the end of the tunnel? does evade become more effective with higher hide level? as is, I'm afraid to even backstab at times cause my ass is squishy.

thanks

Large Marglar

[Rogean]

I was doing much more damage

Aggro has nothing to do with damage, just fyi.

[Marglar]

hola sir knuckle

rogean - do you have the patience in you to elaborate and educate me a bit. say two warriors, same level, same equipment, no procs, no taunts, are both hitting a mob. Warrior 1 has done 200 damage to the mob, Warrior 2 has done 25 damage to the mob. Has warrior 1 not generated more hate and is more likely to have aggro? I seem to recall damage being a part of overall hate generation but maybe I am misinformed.

it just seems silly that a warrior can crit for 200 damage, then I can hit backstab, miss and pull aggro off of him immediately. not a huge deal, but I have to be super cautious about even using backstab in an exp group setting. it was always like that on live too, you couldn't just go apeshit at the start, but if you allowed the tank to do a little damage first and used evade after each backstab, you could typically backstab all day long. not the case at all here.

[Nirgon]

hola sir knuckle

rogean - do you have the patience in you to elaborate and educate me a bit. say two warriors, same level, same equipment, no procs, no taunts, are both hitting a mob. Warrior 1 has done 200 damage to the mob, Warrior 2 has done 25 damage to the mob. Has warrior 1 not generated more hate and is more likely to have aggro? I seem to recall damage being a part of overall hate generation but maybe I am misinformed.

it just seems silly that a warrior can crit for 200 damage, then I can hit backstab, miss and pull aggro off of him immediately. not a huge deal, but I have to be super cautious about even using backstab in an exp group setting. it was always like that on live too, you couldn't just go apeshit at the start, but if you allowed the tank to do a little damage first and used evade after each backstab, you could typically backstab all day long. not the case at all here.

http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.two.trains.html

[SearyxTZ]

rogean - do you have the patience in you to elaborate and educate me a bit. say two warriors, same level, same equipment, no procs, no taunts, are both hitting a mob. Warrior 1 has done 200 damage to the mob, Warrior 2 has done 25 damage to the mob. Has warrior 1 not generated more hate and is more likely to have aggro? I seem to recall damage being a part of overall hate generation but maybe I am misinformed.

Also curious about this.

I played a warrior up to 42 in 1999 on a blue server (wood elf, lololol) before I jumped to RZ and then TZ, so it's been a good 13 years.

Damage should surely have some impact on hate/agro though, I would think. In addition to frequency of hits and usage of any debuff/stun/damage spells.


But if Warriors are holding agro with 2x lariats or 2x yaks then I don't really care either way and wouldn't consider it an issue.

[Envious]

Warned you about this, you didn't fucking listen.

In short, get 2x Obsidian shards (and later SSoY). Don't let dps start until you get a proc. Taunt twice before breaking mez. Put all starting points into Dex.

If you did not push Dex while creating your toon, and don't break 100+, your going to suck.

Listen next time.

[SearyxTZ]

I did put into DEX, fortunately, even though the widespread advice was to go all STA.


Envious I'm not bitching about this it's just a discussion for people to understand better how agro works, dude. I like the big damage I do with my axe anyway (for now).

[Nirgon]

Ogre
-> max sta
-> max dex

[SearyxTZ]

Ogres too fat + ugly + fat. Barbarian is the master race of Norrath.

Guild group of 5 Barbarians last night confirmed this.

[Harrison]

Stun immunity from front > anything you think is important

[Amuk]

Oh you're still 18? plenty of time to reroll non-rogue. The current resist system added with how uphill rogue is to begin with makes them unplayable. Being rooted 1/4 with 110 mr unbuffed makes solo pvp unplayable, and 1/6 with 160 with GRM roughly makes you easily rooted in grp pvp.

That combined with some kind of funky vz/tz melee system where 2 hnd melees seem to hit near max on any non plate class makes it pointless. You'll do significant more dps compared to a hybrid/warrior in PVE, Pvp will be insignificant.

Regardless, if you're building for kunark keep up the good fight, but if you're just a stuborn rogue player like me - enjoy rerolling at 50.

[Envious]

For aggro:

Lariats < Obsidian Shards < SSoY


And until proc level, Obsidian shards are amazing. And decent dps.

Don't listen to the fools spouting about str / Stam. They are scrub fucks. Get your 75 agi, then pump dex at character creation. Stam / str will max on any decent warrior race without putting points in it.

Btw, all this info is in the P99 forums / community. I know you had a toon there.

[Amuk]

I don't know the formula, but the amount of mitigation you get from melee for being plate is crazy.

[Knuckle]

human warrior is alpha.

[Marglar]

Amuk - I am stubborn like you, but I am also building with Kunark in mind. Rogues my favorite, it's an uphill battle at the moment, but I want to be ready for Kunark.

luckily I only really play with a pal so I always have a shaman to make my char playable, but it looks like I will have more fun as a different class until Kunark. I am still going to play/level the rogue as I want it to be my main though.

[Steaks2]

Aggro has nothing to do with damage, just fyi.

first off what rogean said is true , aggro from backstab will basically be the same if he misses or hits

this is not class , nor how it was on live , but thats how it works here
i saw firsthand in later expansions when geared players did EPIC Dmg compared to aggro classic mobs still peeling

here? backstab is the best taunt ever , second best is bash , a war cant taunt all day it does nothing , because whoever did the work fucked it up so bad

server is so fail , who would play here?

[Marglar]

the server's not fail, it just doesn't seem to work the way we expect at times. better question is, why would anyone listen to your complaints when you address them like that? pretty sure you just hang around to troll anyways.

reasons I play here

-classic like experience
-dedicated development staff that I consider cream of the crop for emu
-datacenter hosted instead of an old box in someone's moms basement, this results in extremely high uptime and a good ping/connection
-no boxing allowed
-anti hax/cheating/exploiting actively enforced, with more then a slap on the wrist when needed
-it's the best emu pvp server I've seen thus far. I am pretty confident I'm not going to go to log in one day and find that the server no longer exists, it'll fade away more gracefully then that.
-all of my tz pals are here.

I'm sure there's more reasoning, but just to name a couple.

[Nirgon]

Your character isn't going anywhere if you take a break.

[Rogean]

Aggro is generated based on swings, regardless of hits or misses. This has always been the case both here and on live. Go read The Steel Warrior if you think I'm incorrect or that this server is not classic in that regard.

So with your example of two warriors doing the same amount of swings, even if one does more damage, they will have the same aggro. There is a *slight* biase for mobs towards their current target, so it will take more than +1 over the current top to take aggro from them (it is still a relatively small biase, and it is taken into consideration for taunt. It's only there to prevent a mob literally pulling 180's every swing between two players).

[Marglar]

I didn't post that with intent to argue with you or say you're wrong, it was a curiosity question more then anything. I was always very convinced that damage output had a large roll in aggro generation, but with nothing to back that up short of, that's just how I thought it worked.

backstab aggro still seems wonky though. misses should not be generating so much hate.

[NeedAccount]

Aggro is generated based on swings, regardless of hits or misses. This has always been the case both here and on live. Go read The Steel Warrior if you think I'm incorrect or that this server is not classic in that regard.

So with your example of two warriors doing the same amount of swings, even if one does more damage, they will have the same aggro. There is a *slight* biase for mobs towards their current target, so it will take more than +1 over the current top to take aggro from them (it is still a relatively small biase, and it is taken into consideration for taunt. It's only there to prevent a mob literally pulling 180's every swing between two players).


If this is indeed the case, then the server backstab function is not working properly. I submitted a petition about it. Currently my best friend and I tested agro with numerous mobs both level 20 chars. I am playing a 20 sk he is playing a 20 rogue. He will let me get the mob to 50% before he even engages, and upon his FIRST backstab, even if all he is doing is backstabbing, it immediately draws agro. Something I'd be happy to test and demonstrate

Atom

[pewpeat]

switched out sbd for a harpoon at lvl 30, and have had absolutely no aggro problems since then. the problem is at low levels taunt does not have a full effect, because its not a high skill yet, while procs have full aggro. (not based on a skill for effectiveness)

[Slave]

Aggro is generated based on swings, regardless of hits or misses. This has always been the case both here and on live. Go read The Steel Warrior if you think I'm incorrect or that this server is not classic in that regard.

So with your example of two warriors doing the same amount of swings, even if one does more damage, they will have the same aggro. There is a *slight* biase for mobs towards their current target, so it will take more than +1 over the current top to take aggro from them (it is still a relatively small biase, and it is taken into consideration for taunt. It's only there to prevent a mob literally pulling 180's every swing between two players).

Great info, thanks Rogean.

[Marglar]

switched out sbd for a harpoon at lvl 30, and have had absolutely no aggro problems since then. the problem is at low levels taunt does not have a full effect, because its not a high skill yet, while procs have full aggro. (not based on a skill for effectiveness)

taking procs out of the equation at all, backstab aggro is messed up.

misses should not be interpreted for as much hate as they are. iirc they were widely disregarded by mobs as just another miss on live.

[Steaks2]

Aggro is generated based on swings, regardless of hits or misses. This has always been the case both here and on live. Go read The Steel Warrior if you think I'm incorrect or that this server is not classic in that regard.

So with your example of two warriors doing the same amount of swings, even if one does more damage, they will have the same aggro. There is a *slight* biase for mobs towards their current target, so it will take more than +1 over the current top to take aggro from them (it is still a relatively small biase, and it is taken into consideration for taunt. It's only there to prevent a mob literally pulling 180's every swing between two players).

no one gives a fuck what you say rogean , any credibility you once had is gone , you started a project alot of people wanted , myself included , a red pvp server then you fucking abandoned it to go play star wars

fuck you dude , i hope you die of being a ****** irl ( if you can die of ****** that is )

[Marglar]

no one gives a fuck what you say rogean , any credibility you once had is gone , you started a project alot of people wanted , myself included , a red pvp server then you fucking abandoned it to go play star wars

fuck you dude , i hope you die of being a ****** irl ( if you can die of ****** that is )

quoted before you edit. I sincerely hope this is grounds enough to at least warrant revoking your posting rights for a while. you and a couple others do nothing but trash this forum and it does not help peoples impressions of the server (which is doing fine without you, thanks)

that being said - even if he spends all of his time playing SWTOR (cant confirm nor deny), it's his right if that's what he wants to do. with trolls like you around, if I was him, I wouldn't really care to spend too much time here either. he's helping provide the rest of us a great service for free, and he still spends his own time on this server willingly despite ingrates like you.

I don't think the staff sees enough appreciation. I don't think kids like Steaks understand that everything they've provided for us is free and donated out of their own time and skillsets. To the Red 99 staff - thank you for providing the best emu pvp experience I've had to date.

[Marglar]

get a life

[SearyxTZ]

Dug this up on Steel Warrior because I was curious.

Agro has been proven, about 10 months ago, to be based on 'potential' damage, rather than actual damage. That was well tested. So, it didn't matter if you missed 10 times in a row, you generated the same amount of agro as if you had hit, for max damage 10 times in a row. The reason the monk pulls agro is because you have a heck of a lot of 'potential damage'.

For what it's worth, the study was done with fairly decent methods using shadow knight agro spells. It convinced me at least.

In fact, if I remember right, it ended up not being based on even the 'potential' damage of the weapon, but on the delay of the weapon, and it follows thresholds (ie, rounding issues). The delay was rounded off to the next 10 (10, 20, 30...).

The original study showed, quite surprisingly, that a weapon with 14 delay had less agro than something with a 18 delay. So, for agro purposes, a 14/14 would be worse than an 8/18 because the 14 was rounded down to 10 and the 18 was rounded up to 20.




Summary:

Each swing of a weapon gives a set amount of hate regardless of whether or not you hit the mob. A critical hit for 700 damage is no more hate than a hit for 40 damage. It seems that the amount of hate is determined similar to the values used to determine DPS for a given weapon combo. (damage * modifier + damage bonus) Except in this case the modifier is VERY low. IN damamge calculations you will have a modifier of 3-4 anymore, but in hate calculations it seems to be around 1. So damage bonus is a significant contributor to hate. Thus why off hand weapon generates much less agro than primary hand weapons. (Of course being swung less often is also a factor.) As you get better weapons your offhand will perform better hate wise in comparison to your main weapon. THis is why a less damaging two handed weapon can out taunt a more damaging one handed combo.

[Vexxar]

Is it possible to please fix this, it's terribly inconvenient for low level rogues.

[steakshop]

no one gives a fuck what you say rogean , any credibility you once had is gone , you started a project alot of people wanted , myself included , a red pvp server then you fucking abandoned it to go play star wars

fuck you dude , i hope you die of being a ****** irl ( if you can die of ****** that is )

[CallnOutTheNubs]

I think this faggot needs to get a IP ban for saying this shit about rogean

[Marglar]

I'm finding this slightly more tolerable with hybrid tanks and proc equipped warriors .. but they still really have to work for it and some fights I really have to .. not backstab every time the buttons up, which sucks :)

sbd's will start procing soon and I am sure I will be crap out of luck at that point. will likely need to bag them for a lot of encounters and come up with other weapons.

[steakshop]

no one gives a fuck what you say rogean , any credibility you once had is gone , you started a project alot of people wanted , myself included , a red pvp server then you fucking abandoned it to go play star wars

fuck you dude , i hope you die of being a ****** irl ( if you can die of ****** that is )

i currently have 8 ip bans actually

and about 12 forum account bans

seems to be in effective

STAR WARS TIME

[Marglar]

yepppp sbd proc makes it ridiculously hard to not get aggro again. I let Searyx get a mob to half once. opened the fight with a proc and a backstab and I had aggro immediately.

good times.

[Hovis]

yepppp sbd proc makes it ridiculously hard to not get aggro again. I let Searyx get a mob to half once. opened the fight with a proc and a backstab and I had aggro immediately.

good times.

this and among other rogue broken-ness is why i quit my rogue lol

[Marglar]

aggro just seems so fickle, like its hanging on by a thread at any moment and any proc or large attack snags it immediately, as if tanks can't generate enough overall hate even if we let them beat on something for a while, and it's largely based on snap-aggro abilities (procs, spells, taunt when they lose aggro etc)

we can work around it, but does that really make a good gaming experience? meh..

[steakshop]

server is so broken / bugged why bother , why care marglar

[Marglar]

because it's not broken/bugged and things can be improved upon with feedback?

[FoxxHound]

because it's not broken/bugged and things can be improved upon with feedback?

if they actually decide to listen that is...

[steakshop]

haha no one listens you clowns

nobody cares , move on dudes red99 was a troll

[Harrison]

haha no one listens you clowns

nobody cares , move on dudes red99 was a troll

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64379&highlight=fraps

Steaks is just butthurt he got caught and outed publicly.

His opinions are worthless.

[steakshop]

dunno man i think your the most butthurt person ive ever heard of in my 31 years of life

your friends shit on you , your girlfriends shit on you
your internet friends shit on you , internet strangers shit on you
you were shit on in shards of dalaya , shit on in eve
shit on in red99 and blue 99 and now you just shit this forum

[Vexxar]

Can we not talk about retarded issues like who's butt hurt and please move to fix these broken rogue abilities? FFS . . . .