Legalize Training on Red 1999?

[Lulz Sect]

http://i.imgur.com/TaUdp.png

[Autotune]

I do like a good train.

[Nirgon]

The real answer is there's training you can enforce and training you can't (read on). We need rules that we can expect to be enforced with consistency, read on...


I started on this road when the server launched.

Rules should be as follows in raid zones:
- Any intentional act that causes an NPC to kill another player without the intention of PvP and involving the player in question aggroing the mob scoring the kill is training.
- Training should result in a first time and immediate month suspension. A permanent ban with no grace period following. It will take one or two people getting Amelinda'd or Sirken'd and this will sink in, believe it.
- Raiding past a certain hour should be FFA. Let's be honest, it's not fair to the staff to have to be on every day of the week at 3-4am to try and police things. You should probably be asleep anyway.

The goal here is to have an ENFORCEABLE AND CONSISTENT set of rules. Let's not try to make rules that cannot be consistently enforced. AKA: Well they trained us at 4:22am. Really?

That said, and as outlined above, a very hard first time punishment to make examples of individuals caught doing it. One of two things will happen: people will wake up and smell the coffee and be mature or they will put in the "well I don't care anymore Jihad" hat and get themselves all banned off the server with a "well fuck this place anyways" attitude. Good riddance.

I'd also advocate (if it does not already exist) some way of beefing up the logging to support claims of training.

Let's open this to unbiased discussion and try to hammer out something we can agree on, do not cite specific examples or troll..

[Billbike]

http://www.funnyjunksite.com/pictures/wp-content/uploads/780/no-rules-for-me.jpg

New PoF.

[Nirgon]

Or!

Just make all the raid zones FFA and be done with it*.

Everyone has an equal chance to train each other. Each side can expect the same thing.

One side will never suffer while the other side does not.

This is my goal.



(* I do not prefer this, it is detrimental to the server's health. I just don't want a guy from one guild banned while a guy from the other guild gets away with it 200 times, read: DETRIMENTAL TO SERVER HEALTH)

[Truth]

voted for item loot

[Lazortag]

There are two types of training. There's really obvious training, and less obvious training. No one is expecting the staff to have a magic crystal ball and be able to distinguish a non-obvious intentional train from an unintentional train. But with training illegal, the staff can easily police obvious trains (which tend to also be the worst ones). Even if their ability to police it is limited, people will still be deterred, meaning there will be less training. Since training is bad, making training illegal is good, because less of a bad thing is a good thing.

[Nirgon]

Obvious - single player goes running deep into solb, strafe runs his way out after grabbing shit loads of mobs, esp ones that are out of the way.

Not obvious - PKer (guild b) chases monk in fear, monk fds (guild A) mobs in fear, wizard shadowsteps (guild A) dies, mobs are dropped on his own guild... etc

[oldfish]

Since training is bad, making training illegal is good, because less of a bad thing is a good thing.

This is a conclusion, i dont see an argumentation for this.

[Arillious]

Everything but the most obvious repetitive training should be allowed.

[Nirgon]

^ something like this.

Guilds need to appoint a rep to just talk things out with Amelinda (or Nilbog whoever) and just put the rules in stone. And enforce them without discussion with the player.

Just instantly suspend them, tell them you know what you did. Period.

Frustration is a result of expectancy. When the expected is enforced, legit players will not be so upset.

[Harrison]

Everything but the most obvious repetitive training should be allowed.

Dumbest fucking post possible.

[taakyn]

Harrison shut the Fuck up

[Knuckle]

training is dumb but id level up my necro if it was legal.

[Jabber]

I am the Dumbest fucking poster possible.

fixed for you fatty

[Lulz Sect]

http://i.imgur.com/vmbRX.jpg

[Billbike]

Everything but the most obvious repetitive training should be allowed.

100% this

[Tassador]

Trains should be allowed as long as its obiviously not one dooche trying to constantly mess up a raid.

[Nirgon]

Trains should be allowed as long as its obiviously not one dooche trying to constantly mess up a raid.

Almost dude.


Lemme know what you think the improvement of odds in PvP is with this scenario over the absence of it:

Guild (A) vs guild (B) fight is initiated by a monk (B) leading the charge and dumping FDed mobs.

After mobs sufficiently aggro team A, non-FD class members of B sit back and cautiously pick off fleeing players. FD classes of B go full aggression with no caution (cuz they don't hafta) and go around beating rezzers asses.

You tell me.

[moru]

Bring on the trains alrdy, cause it will happen anyway - whether its intentionally or unintentionally...

[Muaar]

legalize heroin & murder

[Flunklesnarkin]

No rules server (besides hacking or w/e)..


the end...


also full loot (even no drop shit).

[Arillious]

Dumbest fucking post possible.

That's just where you an I differ my friend. I'm usually right and you're usually wrong.

We would need a GM sitting in fear 24/7 to make any stricter rules than what I posted. The hurt the server would suffer from GM's handpicking who to ban and who not to ban is way more detrimental than just allowing occasional trains to happen and let people sort it out. Its actually not that hard to avoid trains and very easy for a raid to handle. Quit trying to make GM's hold your hand.

[Harrison]

This is the problem with this server.

This thread even being taken seriously. You pussies want to cheat and hack with no consequences.

[Arillious]

This is the problem with this server.

This thread even being taken seriously. You pussies want to cheat and hack with no consequences.

Training <> Cheating and Hacking.

[Flunklesnarkin]

This is the problem with this server.

This thread even being taken seriously. You pussies want to cheat and hack with no consequences.


You want the wild wild west son... you gotta accept trains lol


who ever heard of a fair fight anyways >_>

[Nirgon]

It's not about fair and unfair.

It's about something game breaking that was recognized as a mortal sin on live, and severely punished for a reason.

[Slave]

I voted for teams, item loot, and to remove the play nice policy. And remove the level range while you're at it - gogo SZ!

[Rutaq]

I know there are rules against training but are there clear black and white definitions for what training is

It appears that training is a design element of EQ. From what I have seen and experienced, you are overwhelmed by the Mobs that agro'd you and you flee to the zone or feign to avoid dying. The free Mobs then can agro others and cause lots of Chaos.

I doubt that a "no train" rule can be enforced fairly since it will be nearly impossible to read the intent of the Trainer.

The sly players that bend then rules, shout in occ ... "TRAIN !!!", as they rush by with a pack of Mobs will have the " I was gonna die", "I lost my buffs", "low on Mana",etc.. defense / excuse.

The threshold of evidence would need to be too high and cumbersome to protect honest players and police cheating players. Sadly it seems like a NO TRAIN rule is a wasted effort and an enforcement / apeal nightmare.

If Training is that big a deal then it looks like coding rather than rules is the only way to deal with it and that would be a HUGE non Classic change.

.

[Within99]

The obvious answer to this is, yes.

[oldfish]

It's not about fair and unfair.

It's about something game breaking that was recognized as a mortal sin on live, and severely punished for a reason.

LOL thats why no trains in oasis is breaking my immersion nostalgia, because there wasnt spectre trains each time you went there.

This guy knows what hes talking about.

[Tassador]

all im saying if you sucessfully train on me. Im giving you a thumbs up dude. but i could understand how much it would suck to have people constantly camping out on raid due to gayness. like seriously running mobs to someone and gating to another zone is the coolest thing this game has. I hope you all will forgive me if it may ever occur as i will forgive you. =)

[Flunklesnarkin]

all im saying if you sucessfully train on me. Im giving you a thumbs up dude. but i could understand how much it would suck to have people constantly camping out on raid due to gayness. like seriously running mobs to someone and gating to another zone is the coolest thing this game has. I hope you all will forgive me if it may ever occur as i will forgive you. =)

thats why its pvp


post a squad to guard the entrance to w/e zone you are raiding

[Billbike]

http://images.military.com/media/education/content-images/students/too-much-work.jpg

Good morning Amelinda.

Hope you got some rest, you have work to do.

[Envious]

Called it~

[Seaweedpimp]

Imo, no rules please.


Only thing ive seen played dirty is rooting a pc at an inzone and training them. Thats dirty.

[Billbike]

http://shoryuken.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/UFC3PRIDE-RampageSlam.jpg

As you can clearly see, Rampage is suplexing his opponent in to the mat, with the intent of inflicting damage. Rampage is obviously cheating here by using the "environment" to PvP his opponent. Therefore slams should be banned riiiight?

Lol fuck no

[Nirgon]

LOL thats why no trains in oasis is breaking my immersion nostalgia, because there wasnt spectre trains each time you went there.

This guy knows what hes talking about.

They used a loop hole of the no training policy called "no zone disruption" to finally stop Fansy on SZ.

It's that much of a problem. Read up gang.

Rampage is obviously cheating here by using the "environment" to PvP his opponent. Therefore slams should be banned riiiight?

Lol fuck no

Doing that to someone is allowed in that sport.

[Harrison]

As you can clearly see, Rampage is suplexing his opponent in to the mat, with the intent of inflicting damage. Rampage is obviously cheating here by using the "environment" to PvP his opponent. Therefore slams should be banned riiiight?

Lol fuck no

You get dumber by the post.

[Lulz Sect]

http://i.imgur.com/KTnM5.gif

[Billbike]

Let's clear the air.

Do you Harrison, actively play a toon on Red?

Well which is it?

Yes

Or

No

Would you go so far as to tell us who you are (on Red)? I'm being serious here.

No response, dodged.


Answer my question. You're dodging.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zhHiMhkz7hE/TzTVi8a2mHI/AAAAAAAAAHo/1L2rIaIGtpA/s1600/hypocrite_1_answer_1_xlarge.jpg

[Harrison]

http://ruggerjay.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/04/tootsie_pop_owl.jpg

[Nirgon]

Good call Billbike. Dude is owned in every sense of the word.

[Harrison]

I've told you guys a thousand times I don't play with cheaters.

Until the current situation changes, and it hasn't, no one with any integrity who desires legitimate competition would be.

It's not my fault you have the memory of goldfish and need to be reminded of such simple things. (And as for who the cheaters are, don't worry, I'll be reminding you...)

[nerfed]

unleash the big dogs

[SamwiseRed]

I voted for teams, item loot, and to remove the play nice policy. And remove the level range while you're at it - gogo SZ!

Don't care bout loot or coin just want death and dismemberment with a little bit of fun in the middle

[psyops]

Only those who can't PVP need to train.

[Billbike]

:48 of this, Aragorn is guilty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyxpMGRD3c&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Rutaq]

This is the problem with this server.

This thread even being taken seriously. You pussies want to cheat and hack with no consequences.

Harrison, I don't want Trains to ruin Raids and generally bring zones into Chaos and I don't want to cheat or hack but....

I am skeptical that a rule can be clearly defined to prevent intentional training and protect players from being punish for the simple act of running away from Mobs and ditching them at a zone line or using Feign Death.

I may be new to R99 but in in the last couple of days of having Feign Death on my Monk I have pulled tons of Mobs around and dumped them when a camp didn't break the way I wanted or when a fight went bad and I thought I was goign to die.

The act of Intentional Training is difficult to prove, and observations about training can be highly subjective unless you are the victim of ANY train then of course the guy meant to do it, the Bastard...

[Hairybuttwhole]

implementing this is essentially as unavoidable as a good train 8)

[Flunklesnarkin]

implementing this is essentially as unavoidable as a good train 8)

thats what she said


http://i42.tinypic.com/10d8djk.jpg

[Dullah]

Rules should be as follows in raid zones:
- Any intentional act that causes an NPC to kill another player without the intention of PvP and involving the player in question aggroing the mob scoring the kill is training.
- Training should result in a first time and immediate month suspension. A permanent ban with no grace period following. It will take one or two people getting Amelinda'd or Sirken'd and this will sink in, believe it.


Agreed. But then you wouldnt have a guild.

[Nirgon]

Thanks for agreeing, let's see what happens.

I look forward to creating a system of equal enforcement.

However, remember the case of grey areas.

There's going to be a lot of screams of train regardless, it will just be understood that unless something is OBSERVED AND EXTREMELY OBVIOUS, it flies. Now, the question becomes how can we be sure it's being observed? Let's get on to that next point.

I'd also say our options are: training is either enforced between certain hours etc, or there's a way to ask the GM if they are on and available to check. I like the 2nd one.

That way you know in advance whether or not you want to raid.

This removes the whole problem of people doing it and getting away with it while the other side gets punished for doing it - that is to say, knowledge in advance of enforcement will remove any feelings of "bias".

You will have a certainty to know if your side is safe or not entering that raid zone and not just wing it. That said, don't be giving the staff a hard time if they can't come observe it at the time, be men about it.

Right now there is a huge grey area if it is being watched or not and this creates cries of favoritism, and an uncertainty if you'll get busted one time and the other side won't for doing it later.

I think this is a great, fair solution and creates an expectancy for the rules being enforced.

Just an idea! Discuss.


(And seriously? If you think the staff favors us in any way, lol holy shit)

[Zuranthium]

Everything but the most obvious repetitive training should be allowed.

This.

[Nirgon]

^ Yes. But also there's still that left over nasty of getting away with it because a GM isn't on, then people getting banned over it just because the GM just so happened to be online unbeknownst to them.

The hole in this logic would be "well the GM is never on when we want to raid".

The argument "well we want to raid all the time" - is countered with the obvious "well dude, a GM isn't always available... are they?".

I guess this invites a certainty that you can train all you know a GM isn't available. Well, at least you know to have people running fraps.

It's the best we can do.

[Rutaq]

The real answer is there's training you can enforce and training you can't (read on). We need rules that we can expect to be enforced with consistency, read on...


I started on this road when the server launched.

Rules should be as follows in raid zones:

- Any intentional act that causes an NPC to kill another player without the intention of PvP and involving the player in question aggroing the mob scoring the kill is training...

So according to your rule...

I am on the first floor or Unrest and walk too close the to back room and agro 3-5 MOBs.. I panic and strafe / run down the hall out the front door and straight towards the Zone line...

As I run by the fountains I see a solo player fighting Beetles... I /ooc " TRAIN Get out of the WAY !!!!..." and quickly turn the corner and zone to escape...

The Lurking Mummy, Ghoul and Dark Boned Skele stand around at the zone line for a few seconds and then wander back down the hallway and come on the solo player still fighting Beetles. The skele cackles and jumps the player while he was low on health and the Player is dead.

The player can then cry that I cheated and Trained him ?!!?!


So according to your rule. I intentionally ran away from the MOBs and lead them to the zone line. The MOBs then killed another player while pathing back, a player that had no intention of PvPing since he is OOR.


What's next my own group mates can report me for Training if I get a bad pull that wipes us and I manage to feign with a sliver of life left ?

Seriously ? do you not see how unfair and unenforceable a "No Train" rule is ?

[Nirgon]

I only meant raid zones : /.

I dunno how else you are able to manage it unless someone is constantly training you over and over and GM catches em.

[Lazortag]

Yeah the GM's use this thing called evidence, and "guilt beyond reasonable doubt", and so on. If there isn't enough evidence that you intentionally trained them, then... they... won't... punish... you. Is that so hard to understand? You guys are acting like it is literally impossible to police training. Some trains are not so obvious, some are very obvious. The former will likely not be policed, the latter will be policed. I have a feeling that most of you are using disingenuous arguments in an attempt to be able to train people with impunity. Having to resort to training is a sure sign that you are awful at pvp.

[steaks6]

training is only legal if person is oor on rallos

i voted yes ( even if its not wont stop people from training )

[Nirgon]

Yeah the GM's use this thing called evidence, and "guilt beyond reasonable doubt", and so on. If there isn't enough evidence that you intentionally trained them, then... they... won't... punish... you. Is that so hard to understand? You guys are acting like it is literally impossible to police training. Some trains are not so obvious, some are very obvious. The former will likely not be policed, the latter will be policed. I have a feeling that most of you are using disingenuous arguments in an attempt to be able to train people with impunity. Having to resort to training is a sure sign that you are awful at pvp.

If the train is not legit, you must acquit.

[Harrison]

Yeah the GM's use this thing called evidence, and "guilt beyond reasonable doubt", and so on. If there isn't enough evidence that you intentionally trained them, then... they... won't... punish... you. Is that so hard to understand? You guys are acting like it is literally impossible to police training. Some trains are not so obvious, some are very obvious. The former will likely not be policed, the latter will be policed. I have a feeling that most of you are using disingenuous arguments in an attempt to be able to train people with impunity. Having to resort to training is a sure sign that you are awful at pvp.

[Billbike]

Thank you, I had trouble reading Lazortag's post the first time.


Everything but the most obvious repetitive training should be allowed.

Complements Lazor's post like peanut butter + Jelly.

[Harrison]

You just advocate terrible playing via training. Color me shocked.

[Billbike]

Any color but red, amirite?

I advocate NOT burningout our beloved Guides and GMs through endless petitions.

Yes training is bad pvp, but inevitable.

It is also inevitable that people get mad when they lose exp, so what do they do? /petition: Some fat smurf delislicer trained me!

Amelinda /facepalm not this shit again....

But whatever. Training is much more gratifing when your not allowed to do it.
Lemmon pepper turkey taste SO much better on the clock doesn't it?

[heartbrand]

Yeah the GM's use this thing called evidence, and "guilt beyond reasonable doubt", and so on. If there isn't enough evidence that you intentionally trained them, then... they... won't... punish... you. Is that so hard to understand? You guys are acting like it is literally impossible to police training. Some trains are not so obvious, some are very obvious. The former will likely not be policed, the latter will be policed. I have a feeling that most of you are using disingenuous arguments in an attempt to be able to train people with impunity. Having to resort to training is a sure sign that you are awful at pvp.

I have screenshots and /reports of people admitting to training me, pics of the train, etc., no action ever taken, guess a confession and long detailed explanation of how bad he trained me is not enough evidence. If that doesn't receive GM action but other trains do I can't take this server seriously.

[Nirgon]

Part of GMing I think is enforcing training in EQ. You can't say it isn't.

Consider my suggestion.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Any color but red, amirite?

I advocate NOT burningout our beloved Guides and GMs through endless petitions.

Yes training is bad pvp, but inevitable.

It is also inevitable that people get mad when they lose exp, so what do they do? /petition: Some fat smurf delislicer trained me!

Amelinda /facepalm not this shit again....

But whatever. Training is much more gratifing when your not allowed to do it.
Lemmon pepper turkey taste SO much better on the clock doesn't it?


This pretty much.


If training was legal it wouldn't be an issue for GM's anymore.


People on red want to train each other over and over... then so be it.


If they want to get smart and work out some agreement... or get tactical and put a squad on the entrance to w/e zone they are raiding.

They could do that also.


Either way... less work for GM's the better.



For a server thats suppose to be free for all.. i see a lot of call for GM intervention...


you guys aren't bad ass... you're more like the school yard bully who when somebody punches you in the face, you go crying to your mama (or in this case the GM's).

[Nirgon]

OK. Just like this global ooc let's try it for a week.... =).

I'm optimistic!

[Shocker]

The problem with having Training be Illegal is that GM's have to Enforce this rule. This is a FREE Emu server guys.... The GM's and Guide are on their FREE time to help out the server and the players. I dont think they want to spend the few hours sitting in Fear or where ever or going thru days of Logs to see whos intentionally or unintentionally training. That's just my 2cp tho.

[Nirgon]

This is also a server that advertises their rules are strongly enforced Shocker.

I have no problem with the rules being changed (well... in reasonable cases), but inconsistency is going to cause chaos.

[Herb9]

Make training legal, Remove all GM input from all player controllable situations.

If you want to raid a zone, Lock it down.

Was good enough for Sullon Zek, it's good enough for this cheap imitation.

[Harrison]

Sullon Zek was a sneaky way of moving all the problem players from other servers into a centralized shithole to keep them from clogging CSRs days up with bullshit.

SZ was only a legitimate pvp server for the first 6months to a year and then it was just disgusting.

[Herb9]

Sullon Zek was a sneaky way of moving all the problem players from other servers into a centralized shithole to keep them from clogging CSRs days up with bullshit.

SZ was only a legitimate pvp server for the first 6months to a year and then it was just disgusting.

This is different from r99 how?

[Harrison]

We have the ability to improve the server before it gets to that point.

But, it seems like the "community" almost WANTS this to be a disgusting pathetic place, with polls like this being taken seriously.

They don't want harsher punishments for cheaters, but want training to be legal. Enough said.

[psyops]

All these bitches who want training just can't PVP. Why else would you even consider training others.

[Herb9]

My stance comes from wanting GM's to interfere as little as possible with gameplay situations where reprecussions can happen by the players with politics and action within the game.

Hate and Ruin and later Hate by itself thrived even with Speedd doing his best to ruin every raid he could.

Anything that puts regulating bad behavior into the hands of the players and out of the hands of gm's is a step forward in my book. Anything to reduce petitions, and reduce a "judge" hearing both "sides" and making a "decision". Talk about horsecrap.

Players on Sullon gravitated towards anti training guilds when they wanted to avoid training. Other players joined in on the games.

Really makes sense to have GM's spend hours volunteering serving as mediator between a couple of whiney ass lying parties.

[Nirgon]

If these become the rules, I shall play by them.

It doesn't mean everyone will choose to train instead of attack in PvP either. Given the option though? If someone did it to me? Oh yeah, toot toot bitch, all aboard. I will bring some diabolical shit down upon you.


Oh one other thing (edit): undead and other mobs here don't auto train onto people like they did on live.

[bakkily]

seems to me that the hardcore players from RZ im guessing (is this the server where training was allowed?), but yea those who wish to take the easier route will do anything dirty, while trying not to get caught

for some who want to play dirty, fine, you only hurt your self and make others around you unhappy, but anyways i just play for fun, and hope others i group with, or are in a guild with have the same possitive experience

[Harrison]

Sullon zek was the cesspool that allowed training.

[Lulz Sect]

PfffffffFFT takes 50+ n00bs to down lulz

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5376/eq000054.jpg