Three step plan to fixing P99 blue endgame

[Ruenaros]

Step 1: Simulated maintenance days. It's classic, and EQs entire raid game revolved around it.

Step 2: Disable variance. I can see why this was done originally since there's no weekly maintenance. It would not be necessary with maintenance day simulation. If you need examples of why, look no further than classic live EQ.

Step 3: Ban people for breaking the rules. Suspensions mean nothing to most of the people abusing the system.


That's it. Bring back true classic EQ raiding!

[Kubaton]

heck, why not simulate more bugs and nerfs that are later fixed/reversed.... siigh

I agree about #3... but, that not gona happen

[Motec]

Steps 1 and 2 would re-establish a natural order. Its the way of things.

[Bruman]

Agree on all 3.

[DoucLangur]

So you want the simulations to include downtimes? Or just random repops of boss mobs? :D

Agree *only* on 3.

[Autotune]

Agree on all 3.

[Kika Maslyaka]

#4 randomly shut down the server for 3-8 hours with no explanation. It's classic :D

[gnomishfirework]

#4 randomly shut down the server for 3-8 hours with no explanation. It's classic :D

[Bruman]

#4 randomly shut down the server for 3-8 hours with no explanation. It's classic :D

I think we get semi-close to that with the login server dying as often as it has lately, ha.

[Swish]

I worry for the socio-economic problems of the server related to unregulated casinos and and the Wall St "buy low sell high" fatcats in the EC tunnel.

If we aren't careful there will be a Marxist uprising and the server will turn a communist red (not to be confused with P99 red).

[Raavak]

Pffft free market always wins in the end. Kill a commie for your mommy.

[RevengeofGio]

Why are variable spawns bad? Are are you just wanting a for sure respawn on Tuesday?

[Droxx]

http://www.freedomworks.org/files/imagecache/preview/FW_Ohio_standard_sign_FINAL.jpg

[messiah_b]

Why are variable spawns bad? Are are you just wanting a for sure respawn on Tuesday?

With a set day, you will have all the spawns happen at once, and guilds can choose which target to go for.

With variance you have all guilds tracking, and as soon as there is a pop they rush for it. Whoever gets there second will get in your camp, train you, and call you names saying they are just waiting in case you mess up (which happens a lot because they are training you, standing in your camp, and running agro all around the zone)

[Craigmandu]

Why are variable spawns bad? Are are you just wanting a for sure respawn on Tuesday?

Sounds to me like someone wanting to strongarm certain spawns. Keep it variable...keeps everyone honest.

[Craigmandu]

With a set day, you will have all the spawns happen at once, and guilds can choose which target to go for.

What this means is guilds can have "teams" that setup before maintenance to be assured of a kill, effectively taking those creatures out of the loop for anyone other than those guilds.

[Ruenaros]

Sounds to me like someone wanting to strongarm certain spawns. Keep it variable...keeps everyone honest.

It's actually the complete opposite of what you just suggested. Variance enables strong-arm tactics because it allows the large batphone guilds to dominate every spawn on the server, instead of having to select which ones they really care about.

[Craigmandu]

It's actually the complete opposite of what you just suggested. Variance enables strong-arm tactics because it allows the large batphone guilds to dominate every spawn on the server, instead of having to select which ones they really care about.

How would it be any different that perma-camping the spawns? It would make it easy peasey for a guild to keep certain spawns on lockdown negating anyone else the opportunity. At least with variance in, if another guild wanted to camp the same spawn, they could get a real presence there and have a shot at it.

All you would have otherwise would be multiple guilds logged out at spawn camps and massive training/ks attempts by lesser guilds tired of trying for 2 months to get a spawn at "maintenance" time and being unable to do so because of the upper guilds having their presence there, ready, buffed and easily logged in/zerged on the boss.

This is why variance exists to begin with...at least with it, lesser guilds have the opportunity to assemble faster and engage before the "bat phone" guys can get in and zerg/ks

[Raavak]

This is why variance exists to begin with...at least with it, lesser guilds have the opportunity to assemble faster and engage before the "bat phone" guys can get in and zerg/ks
That may have been the theory, but its not how it has worked out in practice.

[Ruenaros]

keepin hope alive that admins will re-evaluate the current situation and try to bring back the true classic experience!

[Raavak]

This is why variance exists to begin with...at least with it, lesser guilds have the opportunity to assemble faster and engage before the "bat phone" guys can get in and zerg/ks
What has actually happened is, if a highly sought mob is late in window two raidforces will sit there, with 70-100 players total at times, for hours on end, all hoping to get "first to engage", talking smack to each other and basically spreading H8. The mob spawns and everyone kills it, in seconds, and a GM checks the log to see who hit it first. Then there is usually a bunch of rule lawyering for the next hour to several days accompanied by RnF posts and general trolling on the boards and public channels in game.

No one likes to do it either, but if you want the mob and the loot you have to do it. That's what variance does for the server.

[maverixdamighty]

Variance and not spawning on server resets etc are not classic. In classic when a server resets a guild would prioritize which mobs they needed/wanted the most. This gave other guilds a chance to pick off some of the lesser mobs. However with variance a single guild is able to kill all mobs if the right circumstances happen.

[Ruenaros]

Indeed. That in turn lends itself to rotations exceedingly well cause then you have other targets of opportunity to tackle while someone else is taking a turn on the priority mob/zone.

[Lazortag]

I'd be down with all mobs on a certain timer sharing the same variance (ie all 7 day spawns spawn at the same time, but there's still a variance on them; similarly for 3 day spawns, trak, draco, maestro, (what else?) would spawn at once). It's not really my preferred solution but a lot of people in another thread supported it and I think we can all agree it would be way more fun than the current snoozefest that is raiding here.

[Craigmandu]

I'd be down with all mobs on a certain timer sharing the same variance (ie all 7 day spawns spawn at the same time, but there's still a variance on them; similarly for 3 day spawns, trak, draco, maestro, (what else?) would spawn at once). It's not really my preferred solution but a lot of people in another thread supported it and I think we can all agree it would be way more fun than the current snoozefest that is raiding here.


I support that idea. This still makes it so it isn't a "guaranteed" kill every week with your whole raidforce, gives the ability to include people outside of certain time zones (if there are any euro etc... guilds here) etc....and you would still have to "pick" which one your guild was going after.

[weezilla]

3) Subtract levels instead of suspension, plus give a permanent exp penalty to normal and aaxp. The more offenses/more serious the offense, the more levels and more penalty.

[Hitchens]

For some people, the race is the game. This has always been the case in Everquest.

[Harrison]

For some people, the race is the game. This has always been the case in Everquest.

This.

[Asher]

For some people, the race is the game. This has always been the case in Everquest.

For Classic EQ the variance was no where near as crazy as it is on P99.

Why not let everyone poopsock, not just those with huge zerg numbers.

Asher

[Feminem]

While I do like your ideas, they are not without their issues, just as the system we use now is not without it's issues.

I think a largely overlooked aspect of the overall problem is simply that this is a Classic EQ Experience, but it is not Classic EQ. It is 100% impossible to bring back Classic EQ in it's pure, difficult, and punishing perfection because we KNOW everything about this game this time around. We no longer have to discover all those invisible floors, or what this quest mob means when he says "Amulet of my Ancestors." We have the knowledge, or at least the resources to find it, and that will prevent Project1999 from truly re-creating our former experience.

Overall, we play on this server because of the experience we get. Will it ever be exactly like Classic EQ? No, because the player base is just too well informed. We know exactly what to do and how to do it, without that long process of discovery. P99 may not be a perfect replica of the image in our minds, but fuck there was a lot of work put into it - from devs to players alike - and will always demand some tweaking for the population it currently hosts.



tl;dr Great ideas. But absolute Classic limitations will not always apply to a server with such a large and well informed player base.

[Slave]

Welcome to the Internet, Feminem.

[Grozmok]

Forgive my naivete since I don't currently play the end game, but what is exactly wrong with it on blue?

[Feminem]

I was not curious about the boards until I had a job with extra free time and many browser windows, but I still have opinions! Several, in fact. Like 3.

[Lazortag]

Forgive my naivete since I don't currently play the end game, but what is exactly wrong with it on blue?

Raid mobs have a variance of +/- 2 days when in classic the variance was substantially shorter. Having to wait up to 96 hours for one mob is considered by many to be a ridiculous waste of time. We used to have server repops on patch days but those never seem to happen anymore. They were extremely fun and when they happened there was less confrontation between guilds, and more casual guilds got mobs they otherwise would not have gotten.

[Grozmok]

I see.

Consider this a petition and consider this my signature:

/signed

[Slave]

Raid mobs have a variance of +/- 2 days when in classic the variance was substantially shorter. Having to wait up to 96 hours for one mob is considered by many to be a ridiculous waste of time. We used to have server repops on patch days but those never seem to happen anymore. They were extremely fun and when they happened there was less confrontation between guilds, and more casual guilds got mobs they otherwise would not have gotten.

Lazortag is 100% right on in this quote.

[bluejam]

Step 2: Disable variance. I can see why this was done originally since there's no weekly maintenance. It would not be necessary with maintenance day simulation. If you need examples of why, look no further than classic live EQ.
It'll just bring more poopsocking and KSing back than we currently have to endure. A simple fix to this would be making the big targets spawn 52 times per year at complete random times as proposed months ago - lesser target 72 times or something. This was the best solution anyone came up with in my opinion. It would stop tracking mobs for 24h a day cus it's already impossible to cover multiple windows at once unless you're either boxing trackers or recruited enough unemployed people with nothing better to do. It would also loosen up precamping in certain zones and actually make guilds race for targets instead of say camp out in zone A cus you can evac to zone B for mob B and also have a chance at mob C in adjacent zone C cus it's already way down in window! That and back to more frequent simulated patch days will enhance the health of the raiding scene.

I really don't know why they keep putting up with this broken system. Even if -for reasons I can't imagine- the above mechanics would proof to disbalance the server even more.. what is there to lose? I don't think it's hard to code. Put it up as a beta phase before Velious. If it works for Kunark and Classic, keep it. If not.. go back to the old deal. There're 3 options for people that want to experience endgame content right now (it will change with Velious and maybe that's what the devs simply settled on... burn them out with variance until they quit?). It would still require smaller guilds to track targets and mobilize, but none of them are willing to say, poopsock or precamp in a zone right now anyway, so their chances at even engaging are slim to none as it is.

What bugs me the most is no comment whatsoever why this or that system doesn't appeal to the server staff. There're solutions, but none seem to hold up to their standards?


For some people, the race is the game. This has always been the case in Everquest.
There's not too much racing going on these days. It's usually the 3 big guilds camped out somewhere waiting for a batphone. It all comes down to who logs on their bard/puller the fastest or has enough unemployed ppl in their guild who can stay up sitting on a mob's spawn point all night. The last Fay, VS and Inny spawns were ridiculously late and I was participating the horrible poopsock.

I doubt this is how the staff envisions competition. Sure, they can say "it's up to the players to create their own raiding environment", but we already have specific rules in place (hell, why not remove the "no training" policy?) to regulate and monitor. Why not fix this from the admin side of things and moderate how guilds can operate on this sandbox. It would save them a lot of headache (well, Amelinda mostly at this point).

[Orruar]

unless you're either boxing trackers or recruited enough unemployed people with nothing better to do.

What ever led you believe that this wasn't the case?

[bluejam]

What ever led you believe that this wasn't the case?
Not sure if trolling. :confused:

[Kataro]

Maybe it was just my server back in the day but on The Rathe we had a website/forums called The Rathe Travel Agency iirc and basically it managed rotations for which guilds got which raid mobs each spawn. I don't know who exactly managed it and such but it was respected by the entire server as any guild who didn't respect the official rotations was quickly black listed by the rest of the server and dissappeared altogether soon after, though I only saw this happen twice the entire 6years I played on live.

A bit more work sure but I don't see why we cant just have the raid spawns be set timers as they used to be and our GMs then maintain a rotation here on the forums of which guild kills which mobs when, it worked great back in the day. If managed by GMs then they could easilly punish anyone who violated the rotation with suspension warnings and permananet bans if it continued.

[Jimes]

A bit more work sure but I don't see why we cant just have the raid spawns be set timers as they used to be and our GMs then maintain a rotation here on the forums of which guild kills which mobs when, it worked great back in the day. If managed by GMs then they could easilly punish anyone who violated the rotation with suspension warnings and permananet bans if it continued.

Because some of us enjoy the competitive aspect of this game. If I wanted guaranteed loot on certain days then I'd go play WoW or some other game.

[john_savage1982]

Because some of us enjoy the competitive aspect of this game. If I wanted guaranteed loot on certain days then I'd go play WoW or some other game.

The competition aspect? What competition? Who can stay awake the longest and organize the longest poopsocking session?

I agree with 1,2, and 3.

1) Simulate server reset.

Classic. If every raid mob is up at the exact same known time then guilds will be forced to choose targets more strategically since they can't dilute themselves across every target. Further, rules should require that in order to maintain right to the spawn then 15 members of your guild be present and must engage the target within 15 minutes of spawning.

I further suggest a non-classic element. I move to add a placeholder mob(s) with variant spawn timer (6minutes-1hour) to raid encounters which, while not exceptionally difficult and dropping no loot, requires the efforts of a raid force of about 10 people to defeat. This will eliminate the possibility of people AFKing at raid mobs in order to hold camps and FORCE them to stay at their computers or risk wiping and losing the camp. Further, if you aren't regularly killing these mobs then you aren't holding the camp for your guild. This change will vastly increase the human time commitment cost of poopsocking, effectively discouraging this behavior (or at least making it annoying enough that people who do continue are doing so by investing their time sitting at their computer ready to act on a short variable respawn.)


2) Disable variance.
Classic. With simulated reset and mobs basically dying within minutes of respawning then all raid mobs will be on the same timer anyways. Again, it forces guilds to choose targets wisely and allows entry of more guilds into the raiding sphere.


3) Ban rule offenders permanently.
Harsh but effective. Imagine if all the members of recent raid guilds were banned for their behavior (which they always knowingly commit despite their bullshit). This would free up room for other, rule-abiding players to enjoy the raid scene. I think if the GM policy was "ban permanently" then people would sure as hell not break the rules.

[john_savage1982]

It'll just bring more poopsocking and KSing back than we currently have to endure. A simple fix to this would be making the big targets spawn 52 times per year at complete random times as proposed months ago - lesser target 72 times or something. This was the best solution anyone came up with in my opinion. It would stop tracking mobs for 24h a day cus it's already impossible to cover multiple windows at once unless you're either boxing trackers or recruited enough unemployed people with nothing better to do. It would also loosen up precamping in certain zones and actually make guilds race for targets instead of say camp out in zone A cus you can evac to zone B for mob B and also have a chance at mob C in adjacent zone C cus it's already way down in window! That and back to more frequent simulated patch days will enhance the health of the raiding scene.

I really don't know why they keep putting up with this broken system. Even if -for reasons I can't imagine- the above mechanics would proof to disbalance the server even more.. what is there to lose? I don't think it's hard to code. Put it up as a beta phase before Velious. If it works for Kunark and Classic, keep it. If not.. go back to the old deal. There're 3 options for people that want to experience endgame content right now (it will change with Velious and maybe that's what the devs simply settled on... burn them out with variance until they quit?). It would still require smaller guilds to track targets and mobilize, but none of them are willing to say, poopsock or precamp in a zone right now anyway, so their chances at even engaging are slim to none as it is.

What bugs me the most is no comment whatsoever why this or that system doesn't appeal to the server staff. There're solutions, but none seem to hold up to their standards?



There's not too much racing going on these days. It's usually the 3 big guilds camped out somewhere waiting for a batphone. It all comes down to who logs on their bard/puller the fastest or has enough unemployed ppl in their guild who can stay up sitting on a mob's spawn point all night. The last Fay, VS and Inny spawns were ridiculously late and I was participating the horrible poopsock.

I doubt this is how the staff envisions competition. Sure, they can say "it's up to the players to create their own raiding environment", but we already have specific rules in place (hell, why not remove the "no training" policy?) to regulate and monitor. Why not fix this from the admin side of things and moderate how guilds can operate on this sandbox. It would save them a lot of headache (well, Amelinda mostly at this point).

Never considered that solution - it's actually quite excellent. If raid targets with 7 days spawn timers spawned 52 times a year, while targets with 3 days spawn timers spawned 122 times a year and so forth then the strategy of poopsocking would be effectively rendered null because there's absolutely no way of knowing when a mob will spawn (could be minutes after the previous spawn).

[Jimes]

Who can stay awake the longest and organize the longest poopsocking session?


I'm not sure why you'd say this and be for ending variance, because that will lead to an endgame with nothing but poopsocks.

[john_savage1982]

I'm not sure why you'd say this and be for ending variance, because that will lead to an endgame with nothing but poopsocks.

Not if raid targets are on timers where they all spawn at the same time. Weekly simulated resets will insure this.

One guild can't be everywhere at once.

[Motec]

Take all TMO and IB members.

Reduce total XP by 95%.
Remove all loot, epics, and clear bank.
Ban said players immediately with zero warnings for any infringement.
Strip all soulbound items and remove all loot/plat from accounts.
Release velious within 6 months.

[Smyd]

Because some of us enjoy the competitive aspect of this game. If I wanted guaranteed loot on certain days then I'd go play WoW or some other game.

While I understand where you're coming from... rotation is also nice for the casual players that also want the feel of accomplishment and to experience raid content and progress their chars.

Also, defeating a mob should be the rush that people are after... I don't understand the thrill of shitting into a sock and arguing with dudes while clicking a track button for 90+ hours. In fact, I think that would drive me to commit some seriously messed up sexual suicide.

[Ruenaros]

Because some of us enjoy the competitive aspect of this game.

What game would that be? Everquest: Unemployed Edition?

Also, I hardly think everyone would become BFFs just because variance ended. There was plenty of competition in live EQ with maintenance and no variance.

[Bruman]

Everquest: Unemployed Edition?

...hahahahaahaha! Seriously, LOL 4 realsies. Maybe it's an old joke, but first time I've heard it.

[Raavak]

Also, defeating a mob should be the rush that people are after... I don't understand the thrill of shitting into a sock and arguing with dudes while clicking a track button for 90+ hours.
The thrill is defeating a mob. There is no thrill in poopsocking, but with it there is the hope of in the end... you defeat a mob. Atm no poopsock = no mob.

[pecete]

sugest allow pvp on zones on boss pop, no rules.

[Extunarian]

sugest allow pvp on zones on boss pop, no rules.

I don't know about pvp rules since this is a pve server. Allowing training/KS'ing would probably be enough to cause a stalemate and make guilds work together a bit more...

[Szeth]

I don't know about pvp rules since this is a pve server. Allowing training/KS'ing would probably be enough to cause a stalemate and make guilds work together a bit more...

I think GM's should allow training and KSing then during raids for one month. I bet it doesn't turn out the way you think =(

[messiah_b]

The thrill is defeating a mob. There is no thrill in poopsocking, but with it there is the hope of in the end... you defeat a mob. Atm no poopsock = no mob.

The problem is that in many cases it's no longer about the thrill of defeating a mob, and has become the thrill of keeping other people from defeating the mob.

I mean it's a fine line, but there are certainly times when competition is blurring with anti-social behavior.

[Extunarian]

I think GM's should allow training and KSing then during raids for one month. I bet it doesn't turn out the way you think =(

Maybe no one would get along and things would stay the same, but at least the GM's time and temperment would sure be saved.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I still think the Zonewide mob shout is, by far, the least intrusive and most effective measure that could possibly be taken. Whenever a mob is aggroed from an unaggro state, it should shout.

This would even clear up the complicated DT/FTE situations. You'd get two guild engage shouts, but the clear rule would always be last guild to be shouted has primacy of claim.

-Xasten

[Raavak]

The problem is that in many cases it's no longer about the thrill of defeating a mob, and has become the thrill of keeping other people from defeating the mob.

I have a hard time believing that, at least for the majority of people. Everything I see raided someone there needs something from. I sure hope you're not right.

[bluejam]

I still think the Zonewide mob shout is, by far, the least intrusive and most effective measure that could possibly be taken. Whenever a mob is aggroed from an unaggro state, it should shout.

This would even clear up the complicated DT/FTE situations. You'd get two guild engage shouts, but the clear rule would always be last guild to be shouted has primacy of claim.

-Xasten
Repeating myself. Suggested months ago along with our reasonable ideas and ignored.

[Szeth]

Guys, I am like the captain of the Concordia. Coast Guard tryin to boss me around and shit but fuck that.

IT IS DARK BACK ON THE BOAT AND COLD.

[Grozmok]

We should just give players a slash command to create the items they want.

/createitem Fungus Covered Scale Tunic

That would stop the QQ.

AMIRITE?

[messiah_b]

I have a hard time believing that, at least for the majority of people. Everything I see raided someone there needs something from. I sure hope you're not right.

You are half right. 99.9% of the people as individuals on this server are not like that, but the second they get into a 30 strong raid - group mentality kicks in and whether or not they like it the group is not playing nice. When called out all the individuals say "But not me I'm good!"

Say Guild B to shows up second to a pop. Yes they want the loot, but now someone beat them to it so now it's a matter of getting that other group to fail first. So they will roll monks up into the other person's camp to 'check it out', but they pulled 10 mobs on the way they 'didn't know about', and now they wiped 'what a shame', well now we're the only ones with raid force.

Over time with more and more guilds sitting on targets it's easy to see how the game becomes about keeping other's down.

[nilbog]

...
A simple fix to this would be making the big targets spawn 52 times per year at complete random times as proposed months ago - lesser target 72 times or something.

This is interesting. I don't know about 52 times a year... as that might mean all of the targets spawn within 2 months, which would be more non-classic than having a variance. Maybe something like.. 2 (7 day) spawns guaranteed over 2 weeks? I'm not saying this will happen, but if it's better than what we have, keeps people entertained, and lessens work for us, it's a good suggestion.

Raiding folks, what potential banes or boons would happen if a system like this was enacted? Speculate.


What bugs me the most is no comment whatsoever why this or that system doesn't appeal to the server staff. There're solutions, but none seem to hold up to their standards?First time I've read this particular proposal. I don't have a chance to read every post in every thread, but I try. Can't speak for the rest of the staff.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If they spawn individually it'll just lead to more tracking. Guilds give DKP out for that, and there's always someone willing to track a big target. At least the variance gives some level of certainty.

Now, if all the repops are simultaneous, like a patch day, that is another story.

As unclassic as it is, the FTE Shout is still the simplest and most elegant solution in my opinion.

[nilbog]

Now, if all the repops are simultaneous, like a patch day, that is another story.


This is what I meant.

[Flunklesnarkin]

For sure i'd say start of small.



FTE shout is the simplest thing to implement that could fix the GM's having to sort out each contested raid target.


Keep it simple.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It'd be a big change, but I like the concept. Patch days are really fun, but it always sucks to miss them. However, you'd still have a lot of FTE issues whenever 2 guilds head for the same target.

[Kender]

I have a hard time believing that, at least for the majority of people. Everything I see raided someone there needs something from. I sure hope you're not right.

then how do you explain people killing brother beltin when he was bugged simply so other monks couldn't get their epics?

people DO kill mobs just so that others miss out. what makes raid targets any different?

[Splorf22]

This is interesting. I don't know about 52 times a year... as that might mean all of the targets spawn within 2 months, which would be more non-classic than having a variance. Maybe something like.. 2 (7 day) spawns guaranteed over 2 weeks? I'm not saying this will happen, but if it's better than what we have, keeps people entertained, and lessens work for us, it's a good suggestion.

Raiding folks, what potential banes or boons would happen if a system like this was enacted? Speculate.

First time I've read this particular proposal. I don't have a chance to read every post in every thread, but I try. Can't speak for the rest of the staff.

Well rather than 52x per year, what you want is 52/ticks-per-year chance per tick. I.e. totally random. The advantage here is that you simply cannot poopsock unless you are willing to wait weeks.

But the big thing that I have been saying for months is we need more server reboots with full pops. It's utterly classic - Verant was patching all the time. It gets a few more raid items into the economy which are sorely needed considering our top heavy/highly involved player base. And it makes reduces raid disputes simply because guilds will tend to prioritize different targets.

Whether this is true or not, it feels to me like the admins have gradually lost interest in the server over the past few months. But I think the raid scene has simply gotten worse and worse and really come to head in the past two weeks.

[Lazortag]

ANY system with simultaneous respawns is better than what we have now, and lessens work for the GM's. To give an extreme example, if you have a +/- 50 day variance on every raid mob, then when a raid mob spawns it will almost always be the only raid mob that's up, which means every willing raid guild will be there, which means you will get more confrontation and more possibilities for FTE disputes. But if you have simultaneous respawns, inter-guild confrontation is a lot less likely to occur.

It's also much more meritocratic, because it requires mobilization and emphasizes poopsocking ability much less.

I'd suggest that maybe this get discussed in the raiding guilds forum also.. we never seem to use that forum for anything.

edit: to be clear though the respawns would have to be for all mobs on the same timer, so if you have two 7 day spawns every two weeks, then similarly you need something like 7 three day spawns every three weeks for the mobs like Trak, Draco and Maestro that are on 3 day timers.

[Taminy]

My 2cp.

Yep simulated patch days are by far the best solution and moreover they are the most classic solution. No guilds in classic dominated targets like this. Sure there were 1-3 top tier guilds per server, but the second tier guilds did actually get some targets. Here the second tier guilds get absolutely nothing. A lot of us have been so frustrated we've quit or reduced our playing time substantially. The top tier guilds here are no more hardcore than they were on live and the second tier guilds are no less capable (other than decimated numbers) than they were on live - it's just that the deck is stacked against them. It really is Everquest: Unemployed Edition as someone else did.

Racing and possibly wiping (pardon the later pun) or forcing another guild into wiping is far more fun than poopsocking. The race is fun. Sitting there with finger on the midnight mallet key for hours or mashing the track button until it wears out is not.

Punishment should be harsher, assuming it fits the crime. Certainly there should be more perma bans - but far more importantly, suspensions should be longer. One week is not enough. One month would be better. One week is a well rested and deserved vacation from poopsocking, not a punishment. Especially with the variance... 2 or 3 guilds absolutely dominating every single spawn for 3+ months then they eventually get a 1 week suspension? Pretty much seems like "BFD" to me.

[messiah_b]

Changing the variability to be longer doesn't solve one of the greatest problems right now, which almost everyone will agree, is variability. Variability doesn't take away socking. It has simply moved to tracker alarms and sms lists instead of actually sitting in zone. You will have no change going to a 52 schedule - if anything it will be worse after a 2 week wait and everyone is in a frenzy.

Raid contesting is the last thing you want to do on regular full server repop. If you get into a CR/Train war with another guild, the rest of the server is going to clean-up all other content in the meantime. If you show up at Trak and someone beat you, hoof it to the next.

Change to replicate exact spawn times from classic, along with simulated downtimes every 10-14 days and a lot of your problems will melt away.

Sorry to be bold, but the above is true for this server now. It may not be perfect but I guarantee it will be better than it is now. Get rid of Unemployed Edition.

[Ruenaros]

This is interesting. I don't know about 52 times a year... as that might mean all of the targets spawn within 2 months, which would be more non-classic than having a variance. Maybe something like.. 2 (7 day) spawns guaranteed over 2 weeks? I'm not saying this will happen, but if it's better than what we have, keeps people entertained, and lessens work for us, it's a good suggestion.

Raiding folks, what potential banes or boons would happen if a system like this was enacted? Speculate.

So basically a randomized maintenance day pop. It would be an improvement over the current setup, but I'm still not a fan largely b/c if that spawn wave occurs at any non-primetime hour than the big guilds are still going to mop up everything before the little(er) guys get a chance to take a crack at something.

Predictable timing of the spawn is what makes the top tier guilds have to think hard about where they want to head first. CT may not be up in 30 minutes if they decide to go after Trak and/or VS first, etc. The smaller more casual guilds simply can't mobilize at random times during the work day with big enough numbers to tackle big targets... but easily can if they know in advance when they need to be on.

[Splorf22]

My favorite proposal was a mixture of planned-in-advance repops and unscheduled repops. For example, if we kept the current system but also had a server reboot on the first of every month and one sometime during the third week that would already be a massive improvement I think.

[Lazortag]

So basically a randomized maintenance day pop. It would be an improvement over the current setup, but I'm still not a fan largely b/c if that spawn wave occurs at any non-primetime hour than the big guilds are still going to mop up everything before the little(er) guys get a chance to take a crack at something.

Predictable timing of the spawn is what makes the top tier guilds have to think hard about where they want to head first. CT may not be up in 30 minutes if they decide to go after Trak and/or VS first, etc.

But patch days weren't "predictable" on Live. I think this is actually very fair. As someone from a smaller guild it doesn't concern me that IB/VD/TMO will get clean sweeps on some weeks where the spawns happen at 4AM, because on other weeks we will still be able to compete under a very fun and meritocratic system. Also I should point out that Euros are allowed to raid too, so the spawns should really be random.

[Ruenaros]

Maintenance days were every Tuesday. There was unscheduled outages and emergency patches that would cause pops as well, that random element was obviously most welcome too!

[messiah_b]

Also I should point out that Euros are allowed to raid too, so the spawns should really be random.

I agree completely. I probably misspoke a bit by saying 'scheduled restarts', but I have no problem with a variance on when a full re-pop happens, but variance should only be on full re-pops. I think the 1 scheduled, and 1 variable full re-pop every 14 days is brilliant.

This experiment was already done in the wild during classic:

Trak - no variance - no one ever alarm clocked Trak down 30 mins after pop in classic.

Ragefire - variance - almost universally agreed to be one of the worst parts of the trilogy.

[Lazortag]

Maintenance days were every Tuesday. There was unscheduled outages and emergency patches that would cause pops as well, that random element was obviously most welcome too!

I'm not sure this is even true (I certainly don't remember this being every Tuesday and I started in 1999), but if it is, then the maintenance didn't always last the same amount of time, so there was some unpredictability to it.

[messiah_b]

Every Tuesday there was a server restart for maintenance whether there was a patch or not so would last between 1 hour and however long the patch took.

Any outage or emergency patch would also re-pop everything.

[Deanob]

Heres the thing. VP and Trak was already on rotation. People were fine with it. It worked. Why not apply it to the rest of the server and implement a strategy for up coming guilds to join it. (eg. Must kill trak without a wipe. Three wipes in a row and your out)

[Lazortag]

Heres the thing. VP and Trak was already on rotation. People were fine with it. It worked. Why not apply it to the rest of the server and implement a strategy for up coming guilds to join it. (eg. Must kill trak without a wipe. Three wipes in a row and your out)

Because maybe not everyone wants a rotation if there's a competitive alternative that's still accessible for smaller guilds.

[Taminy]

Every Tuesday there was a server restart for maintenance whether there was a patch or not so would last between 1 hour and however long the patch took.

Any outage or emergency patch would also re-pop everything.

I seem to recall them doing the patch day not just on Tuesday but sometimes instead (or in addition to) often on Wednesday or Thursday - though I could be wrong about that. I didn't start until like 3 months after launch though.

[Lazortag]

This is interesting. I don't know about 52 times a year... as that might mean all of the targets spawn within 2 months, which would be more non-classic than having a variance. Maybe something like.. 2 (7 day) spawns guaranteed over 2 weeks? I'm not saying this will happen, but if it's better than what we have, keeps people entertained, and lessens work for us, it's a good suggestion.

Raiding folks, what potential banes or boons would happen if a system like this was enacted? Speculate.

First time I've read this particular proposal. I don't have a chance to read every post in every thread, but I try. Can't speak for the rest of the staff.

Bump. I think this is really worth discussing more.

[weezilla]

Yea, I think we need some harsher penalty that will discourage repetitive behavior. Sure, one of the cool things about classic was having the server asshole/assholes (I remember when Spyrit finally got banned on saryrn and had to remake as Froggerx).

I would like to see a moderate penalty. I mentioned it already but no one gave any input? Tack off some levels depending on the offense (2 levels would be moderate), give a permanent negative experience modifier every time they offend.

If they're a real bastard, take their epic away too.

Take all TMO and IB members.

Reduce total XP by 95%.
Remove all loot, epics, and clear bank.
Ban said players immediately with zero warnings for any infringement.
Strip all soulbound items and remove all loot/plat from accounts.
Release velious within 6 months.

[Daldaen]

Linked respawn timers would be very interesting... So....

Planars linked
Old Dragons linked
Kunark outdoor dragons linked
VP/Trak/Venril linked

This would help for the outdoor dragons and trak/venril depending on the time of the day they spawn.

[username1337]

Linked respawn timers would be very interesting... So....

Planars linked
Old Dragons linked
Kunark outdoor dragons linked
VP/Trak/Venril linked

This would help for the outdoor dragons and trak/venril depending on the time of the day they spawn.

This with some modifications.

Over a two week period, have each of these linked groups spawn at a specified date/time then at another completely random time. This system provides possibly extra rewards for players who mobilize the quickest (or who can summon a force at 5am) but also allows other less-hardcore guilds a chance to kill raid targets

[Edrick]

There are some good ideas being posted in this thread. It would be great if it led to a solution people can be happy with.

[Ruenaros]

I also like the idea of some kind of mixed random/predictable cycle on simulated maintenance-repop days. That caters to both the racing crowd and the more casual style.

[Lazortag]

Linked respawn timers would be very interesting... So....

Planars linked
Old Dragons linked
Kunark outdoor dragons linked
VP/Trak/Venril linked

This would help for the outdoor dragons and trak/venril depending on the time of the day they spawn.

You can't link Trak and VS because they're on different timers. Trak is a 3 day spawn and VS is a 7 day spawn, so you'd either get more than twice as many VS's, or less than half as many Traks.

Linking everything that's on the same timer is a lot simpler and closer to classic. It also allows for competition, but within reason, with very little poopsocking.

[Lazortag]

This is interesting. I don't know about 52 times a year... as that might mean all of the targets spawn within 2 months, which would be more non-classic than having a variance. Maybe something like.. 2 (7 day) spawns guaranteed over 2 weeks? I'm not saying this will happen, but if it's better than what we have, keeps people entertained, and lessens work for us, it's a good suggestion.

Raiding folks, what potential banes or boons would happen if a system like this was enacted? Speculate.



Bump. I still think there's quite a bit of interest in something like this to end the madness that is raiding right now. The current system only allows for 2-3 really competitive guilds and the barriers for entry are ridiculous. It's not even enough to track a mob for its entire 96 hour window, because guilds will resort to poopsocking or camping their mains near raid bosses which casual guilds simply aren't willing to do. I don't blame the "big guilds" for doing this because I think the system kind of forces them to do it, but something really should be changed.

Without simultaneous repops, you get spawns spread apart by several hours, sometimes even days, and guilds dedicated enough to know where approximately these mobs are in their windows so they know which mobs to focus on. This way you give a huge advantage to guilds that poopsock and use other similar tactics, because you could realistically poopsock every mob and get a clean sweep (since mobs rarely spawn around the same time with the outrageous variance that we have). There will always be guilds that have the time to do this, as well as guilds that don't have the time to do this. Since not every guild is equally capable or equally willing to poopsock/track for 96 hours straight, you get a system that gives a much greater advantage to the top guilds than we would have ever seen on any Live server. Also just the threat of guilds being able to poopsock discourages competition. I know that I just don't see the point of tracking targets anymore because the last time I tracked VS, one of the top guilds had 30 people near his spawn point at all times. On Live you would have had simultaneous repops on patch days and smaller guilds would get more access to the raid content. When we used to have patch repops here (why don't we have these anymore, by the way?) you'd get the same result: casual guilds performing much better than if they were competing for varianced spawns (for example, we've gotten (from what I remember) Draco, Naggy, Vox, Noble, Faydedar, Inny, and even VS on different patch days, while also getting attempts on other bosses).

Basically with simultaneous repops, VD and TMO would probably still be the top guilds and get the most mobs, but the more casual guilds would get mobs too since they'd actually be able to compete. And yes, I mean "compete", not "have mobs handed to them". I'm not looking for everquest welfare, I just don't think the current system is fair or meritocratic at all.

[Raavak]

Did I notice EQMac/Al'Kabor has scheduled bi-weekly server resets?

[aerokella]

how to solve endgame disputes: pvp.

[Ruenaros]

I have to say I salute the trackers sitting out there poopsocking through these gargantuan variance windows day in and day out. That is a maddening experience requiring a lot of dedication that is perhaps transparent to a lot of people who simply just respond to a batphone text.

Or maybe they're all just 2boxing and its not that big a deal to them... shrug! At this point I'd be ready for trying anything different than what we have, classic or not. There have been a lot of people arguing in this thread that I suspect dont have much(any?) firsthand experience with how things have been operating here.

[Lazortag]

Thanks for the simultaneous repops after the last server reset, I don't know if it was intentional but it was very fun and we did get a mob in the end.

[Ruenaros]

Yeah that was fun, actually seeing a few mobs up for once was a good change of pace.

[Ikonoclastia]

Every Tuesday there was a server restart for maintenance whether there was a patch or not so would last between 1 hour and however long the patch took.

Any outage or emergency patch would also re-pop everything.
Pretty sure there were timers on repops even on server resets at least on some mobs.

[Jimes]

how to solve endgame disputes: pvp.

DERRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Lazortag]

Pretty sure there were timers on repops even on server resets at least on some mobs.

I don't think this was true in classic. I'm pretty sure al'kabor has these now, so maybe this was put in around luclin or PoP, but in classic if the server went back up everything repopped at the same time.

[Ikonoclastia]

I don't think this was true in classic. I'm pretty sure al'kabor has these now, so maybe this was put in around luclin or PoP, but in classic if the server went back up everything repopped at the same time.
Oh okay, I stand corrected.

[Brad_mo123]

Step 1: Simulated maintenance days. It's classic, and EQs entire raid game revolved around it.

Step 2: Disable variance. I can see why this was done originally since there's no weekly maintenance. It would not be necessary with maintenance day simulation. If you need examples of why, look no further than classic live EQ.

Step 3: Ban people for breaking the rules. Suspensions mean nothing to most of the people abusing the system.


That's it. Bring back true classic EQ raiding!

That all seems well and good but if you want true classic then there would be a lot less GM involvement and that would be very bad because this server is made of 80% internet crawling basement dwellers so the player base is not anything like it was in classic so you got horrible GM's and Dev's trying to manage horrible people. So glad I seen the light and am not on this horrible server anymore :) thanks, that is all.