Undead do not train

[Nirgon]

Skeletons, mummies and zombies do not transfer on to attack a player if trained. Same with specters. This is a classic game mechanic.

[nilbog]

I completely agree with this. The mechanics of it need to be worded very specifically though, to ensure it's developed correctly.

This is an excerpt from a developer thread where I tried to explain this.

Undead (bodytype 3) npcs should aggro at any level. They should recheck their proximity aggro and give priority to those closest.

If a player has proximity aggro from an undead and has made no aggressive action, the npc should recheck its aggro to the closest PC if they are in range and initiator is not.

i.e. I'm running through oasis, and I aggro a spectre. I don't attack the spectre, but run away from it. If I bring the spectre past someone else, and it is chasing me only from memory, it should get priority aggro on the other player if it is within its aggro radius and I am not.. because they are closer.

horrible pic.
http://i43.tinypic.com/w86a9g.jpg
Someone that knows wtf they are doing can explain and/or make a better pic.

[SirAlvarex]

Wasn't this true for all aggro mobs?

IE, the mob is gaining aggro, no matter what, as it is trained. Therefore if a Sand Giant runs past a group of players, it will gain proximity aggro on *each* of those players. If they run away, they still have the same level of proximity aggro once all of the other SGs victims die.

It also means that whoever has the most aggro at the time gets whacked...which you guys already know more about the numbers for proximity/sitting aggro. So a SG wouldn't immediately peel off the trainer if the trainer did more damage than proximity aggro can generate...

Until the trainer zones/dies...

This only comes from memory, mostly in Blackburrow. When a gnoll would be trained by a group you'd have to log out because once the trainer dies, those gnolls were coming from you. Maybe this is a mis-remember, as I do not even know how you would find proof of a basic game mechanic...

But if it really is as simple as proximity aggro always accumulates, it should be relatively easy to code since proximity aggro is already a thing.

[SirAlvarex]

I don't know if you already have enough information, but the following breakdown seems appropriate:

(random numbers assigned for purposes of demonstration)
Proximity Aggro = 5 points

Three players present along path.
1. Player 1 aggroes Mob. Player 1 now has 5 aggro.

2. Player 1 is out of "frenzy/proximity" aggro range. Player 1 now has 1 aggro.

3. Player 1 runs for his/her life. Along the way, player 2 gets within melee/frenzy range of mob (the range that is currently used for a PC to gain aggro from a pet). Player 1 still has 1 aggro, player two now has 5 aggro.

4. Player 2 runs for his/her life, getting out of aggro range. Player 2 now has 1 aggro, and Player 1 now has 1 aggro. This is where i think the mechanic gets fuzzy. Should Player 2 still be "above" Player 1 on the aggro list? I believe so...which leads to Player 3.

5. Player 3 is along the retreat of Player 2. Player 3 is within Frenzy range of the mob and gains 5 aggro, and is now getting whacked. Player 3 dies from this.

6. Player 2 is still at the top of the hate list, so goes after Player 2.

7. Player 2 zones. Player 1 is only player with aggro, and Mob now chases after Player 1.

8. Mob gets within frenzy/aggro range of Player 1. Player 1 now has 5 aggro.

9. Player 1 zones. Mob now has a clear hate list.

=====

If my assumption about Player 2 staying at the top of the hate list if both Player 1 and Player 2 are out of Melee/Frenzy range is incorrect, then just switch "Player 2" and "Player 1" from step 5 on.

I don't know if this seems clear enough, but this is how I remember it going down, and seems to be what you guys are describing. If I'm wrong/unclear on some point, feel free to correct. This is a mechanic that would change pretty much half the game, and if done incorrectly could cause a lot of grief.

[Seaweedpimp]

Good posts. I remember undeads doing this on live aswell. ( it was awesome ^-^ )

[Nizzarr]

^ You're not understanding it correctly.

Undead and non-undead mobs in EQ have slightly different aggro mechanics. If you proximity aggro a sand giant and run past some players, the sand giant isn't going to leave you alone until you zone (you have first aggro and therefore substantially higher aggro than anyone else given that no one attacks it). Once you zone, if other players got on its aggro list at all it'll then run to attack them because normal mobs follow a very simple routine: only attack whoever is #1 on the hate list. However if you proximity aggro a spectre and run through some players, that spectre is going to immediately aggro and attack them, even before you zone (the spectre will proximity aggro others even though you have more aggro with initial aggro). In other words, undead mobs care more about just being able to hit something instead of who initially aggroed it. However once you increase your aggro by doing some damage (or debuff etc) to an undead mob, it'll still favor attacking you over anyone else and will no longer stop to attack innocent bystanders (but definitely will return to kill them once the initial aggro zones, it's much easier to get on an undead mob's hate list just from being near it). I'm not sure exactly how much additional aggro/damage is required. It's very low, possibly even just 1 damage before the undead mob will become "stuck" on you.

I'm kind of stumped on how the last part of that works because I have memories of people kiting spectres over me and having them stop to attack me, and also of them running over me without stopping to attack me. It's possible that the developers tweaked undead aggro at some point (especially considering how exploitable it was in certain zones like Oasis) or it has something to do with a golden number of aggro someone needs on the mob before it'll only try to attack him/her.

But at the very least, undead mobs temporarily ignoring initial proximity aggro for other targets in melee range is something the server's been noticeably missing since day one. I just figured it wasn't a very big priority considering its only advantage is as a griefing tactic.

Thats not true, I believe any mobs would transfer aggro if you didnt do anything to them.

Case in point: Fancy the bard.

You think he really zoned those giants to cause grief on sullon zek? no he just proxy aggro'ed them and ran over people to get them killed.

I'm also a firm believer that if you ran stuff over a group, even if they didnt engage anything, mob would add them to their proximity aggro list and come back for them if the guy with more than 1 hate would zone.

[heartbrand]

Glad someone pointed this out, I remember the skeleton trains @ newbie log in nektulos, some good times.

[Fazlazen]

I'm also a firm believer that if you ran stuff over a group, even if they didnt engage anything, mob would add them to their proximity aggro list and come back for them if the guy with more than 1 hate would zone.

This.. 1000 % this. When I started playing on this server, I would never walk by mobs that were KoS to me even when engaged because I remembered this as a classic mechanic. I learned shortly after that if a mob is engaged, it's not registering me on his aggro list.

This would make things interesting and I believe is the correct classic mechanic.

[SirAlvarex]

This seems to be working now! Atleast to the point that it allows Bards to charm kite.

The last adjustments would be that Charmed mobs aren't being automatically added to proximity aggro, and currently aggro only registers every 3-6 seconds (or so it seems). The latter probably can't be fixed. But the former, even though I don't have proof other than "that's how charm kiting for bards worked on live according to these message boards," feels correct anyway.

[Furniture]

whats the deal on this? nizzarr is 100% correct here

[Slave]

All mobs should recheck proximity aggro at LEAST every tick. This is all true.

[Nirgon]

I know I've had guards trained on me before.

Oo.. there's a post in the official rules of "training guards on someone in defense of your home town is not considered role playing and will be punished" -- I'll edit this post and add that when I can find it.

Undead didn't care if you damaged them before or not, I believe other types of NPCs only trained if they had been body aggro'd.

I seem to remember a big train of dervs plowing over someone, most notably, the dervish thug aggroing and causing the rest to go whacko backstabo.

Giants definitely trained on people but only if damage hadn't been done to them. Further, they should have a larger aggro range and most should see invis but I think not all.

[Furniture]

bump

[Wolfgang]

All mobs should recheck proximity aggro at LEAST every tick. This is all true.

for sure undead are broke here. cant get those suckers off group members no matter how far they get away.

[Kender]

Thats not true, I believe any mobs would transfer aggro if you didnt do anything to them.

Case in point: Fancy the bard.

You think he really zoned those giants to cause grief on sullon zek? no he just proxy aggro'ed them and ran over people to get them killed.

I'm also a firm believer that if you ran stuff over a group, even if they didnt engage anything, mob would add them to their proximity aggro list and come back for them if the guy with more than 1 hate would zone.

the difference being undead wouldn't wait to change targets when the original proximity agroer zoned. they'd attack new targets as soon as they were closer.

A guild friend used to power level this way in CoM. he'd run around on his druid and round up all the undead, then run them to zone zone line where the PL target was waiting and stand behind them. the undead would all then attack the PL target when they got close (he had a ds on). he'd then DS himself while the PL target tried to tap each mob (or ae if capable of doing that). when he healed the PL target they'd jump on him and he'd finish them off with DS

[Kender]

p.s. i think the prox agro transference on non undead worked differently... agro was only transferred from the train if you were in combat with a social mob to the train. then as the trainer zoned or died, the train with beeline back because they had you added to their hate list from social agro

[Furniture]

im not 100% on this since its been so long, but as nizzar stated i do believe that non-undead mobs should add any pc to its hatelist from proximity aggro alone, i recall anytime anyone with a mob ran through a group and zoned, that mob would come back to anyone who got on the hatelist from proximity aggro

in the case of fansy, like nizzar stated, if a pc had proximity aggro only on an npc and ran it through another pc, the new proximity aggro would take precedence over the old proximity aggro and the mob would change targets

had fansy done damage at all to the mob, the mob would have chased him til he zoned, then went after the pc's fansy gave proximity aggro to

[Furniture]

also based on some stuff i read from a thread about undead aggro in the eqclassic forum, it looks like undead mobs had their own aggro rules in outdoor zones only and not indoor zones (dont know how reliable that is but it sounds right)

[Nirgon]

Most undead would train no matter what, some things would only train if you hadnt done any damage to them or only body aggrod them.

IIRC having low hp when something was pulled past you could also have an effect.

Not sure if low hp aggro works here either?

[Wolfgang]

Most undead would train no matter what, some things would only train if you hadnt done any damage to them or only body aggrod them.

IIRC having low hp when something was pulled past you could also have an effect.

Not sure if low hp aggro works here either?

confirmed specs and sandgiants would agro everyone as you trained them along. not sure if i pulled them with spell or proximity agroed but i never had a problem getting them to kill everyone in my path. somethin aint right here

[Nirgon]

Something like... aggro ranges grow? For instance, nothing is bothering said shaman in this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-zASeudAcw&feature=related

He hits a spectre, and the one behind him that wasn't even touching him before aggros without him getting any closer. That's how I remember this "aggro stuff" working.

Its much different and hard to put my finger on, so I point to this video.

Training things over top of people that didn't like them that were undead, absolutely. Giants were the same, they scowled to all and weren't on any faction table of any kind.

A mob being on a faction I believe did make it discriminate. Hell, I remember seeing spectres kill all kinds of things that got near them. I believe I was able to train a mummy into the derv camp to "tank" for us to break into a full spawn at derv 2 back in the D (the mummy being slower on foot than most helped as well).

Lol I think that spectre tried to gate on him (1:34) too...

[nilbog]

That video is not from eq live broseph.

[nilbog]

confirmed specs and sandgiants would agro everyone as you trained them along. not sure if i pulled them with spell or proximity agroed but i never had a problem getting them to kill everyone in my path. somethin aint right here

I was thinking that npcs which had a general 'scowl to all' might have behaved similarly. That would include undead without factions and other npcs without factions which scowled to all.

zombie, spectre, sand giant, werewolf, etc. Just a thought.

[Nirgon]

That video is not from eq live broseph.

Yeah but it works like I (and others I shared it w/) remember it, /shrug

I have another specific test I could try to do bank killing someone in Neriak to see if guards aggro correctly ^_^

[Nirgon]

Yes specters did gate low hp. They didn't announce it like, say frogs in seb or raid mobs either.

I remember getting them low, not having the mana to finish right when I triggered "gate hp" on them.

The specter would gate back to its spawn point, but not immediately aggro. However, if you got close enough to the island/its spawn point again, it would start chasing you again (bringing his friends along too if any were up and the # aggrod was affected by your level) and would slowly regenerate its hp and if it had been disengaged until then.

Fact! Not fiction!

What a fun memory to have right there.

[Nizzarr]

Yes specters did gate low hp. They didn't announce it like, say frogs in seb or raid mobs either.

I remember getting them low, not having the mana to finish right when I triggered "gate hp" on them.

The specter would gate back to its spawn point, but not immediately aggro. However, if you got close enough to the island/its spawn point again, it would start chasing you again (bringing his friends along too if any were up and the # aggrod was affected by your level) and would slowly regenerate its hp and if it had been disengaged until then.

Fact! Not fiction!

What a fun memory to have right there.

Wait what? LOL

[Nirgon]

I'm positive specters would gate back to their bind. That's the truth.

They'd only aggro if you got near them again, otherwise they'd all just sit in the tower.

[Nirgon]

Looks right. Don't think I saw em cast a life tap maybe but that's how it was.

How level effects social aggro is interesting too. You could single pull if you were high enough of a level above the group of targets.

I remember single pulling a camp for a friend' SK twink. It was kind of PLing just getting him single mobs with the regen he had.

[nilbog]

proof time? proof time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXA_YXM7D7U&feature=relmfu

real

Not eq live.

[Nirgon]

Yeah I see they come from the same source but this is just illustrating how it should work. It's not eqlive like I thought when I was looking at the previous shaman soloing vid, the hint being "debug xxx". But I think we can all agree it should work like that.

I'm still very amused by the whole specter should gate thing. Really brings back the memories.

[Stinkum]

Fom the original classic EQ Atlas entry for Befallen:

First off, the trains can be atrocious. There is a very low level area (the 1st floor) and a quite high level area (3rd floor). On the 3rd floor (well, on any floor actually) it is very easy to be swarmed and overwhelmed, and many people, if they don't die, will then be running for the exit. This causes problems for the people who lie along their path. Many of the monsters will jump off of the train and attack people that they pass by, but even worse is what happens when the person that all the monsters are chasing either zones or dies, and that is that the entire train walks back down to its level again. Along the way, they will attack anyone within their frenzy radius (which is almost the whole dungeon, it is so small). The trains are also more deadly because, if you are fleeing them, you have to somehow try and open locked doors from your inventory screen while being slammed.

http://www.eqmacwiki.com/eqatlas/befallen.html

[happyhappy]

Not only undead mobs worked this way fyi.

Here's a famous exemple: http://www.notacult.com/fansy1.htm

[Fri Jul 06 22:41:52 2001] Your feet move faster.
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:55 2001] You shout, 'Welcome, You've Got Mail!'
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] A sand giant slashes Emotionless for 88 points of damage.
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] A sand giant hits Emotionless for 94 points of damage.
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] Emotionless has been slain by a sand giant!
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] Your feet move faster.
[Fri Jul 06 22:42:14 2001] You shout, 'Giants love the good guys! Hooray!'

unrelated

[Thu Jun 06 14:09:42 2002] Nilbog has been slain by Priest of Discord! (http://www.notacult.com/fansy3.htm)

[Nirgon]

Sup here?

[Ele]

bump

[nilbog]

kanras is working on this afaik.

I believe one npc type has a rudimentary form of this functioning if you want to test it in game - spectres in oasis.

[this user was banned]

kanras is working on this afaik.

I believe one npc type has a rudimentary form of this functioning if you want to test it in game - spectres in oasis.

brb going to train people in oasis

[happyhappy]

brb going to train people in oasis

gogo good guys!

[Furniture]

Any word on this? Still a major classic mechanic that needs implementing