Whats with the World of Warcraft Crowd?

[Kinat]

Seriously, unless you are an enchanter, cleric, warrior, shaman, rogue or monk, you aren't finding a group on this server.

This min/maxing garbage didn't exist back in 1999. Rolling a hybrid is the most depressing thing ever here. People will not group with you.

With Velious not being anywhere near being released, I think hybrid exp penalties should be removed. Once you break into the 30+ level range, theres too many super twinks from high end raiding guilds that discriminate. I have had friends quit playing here because those chose hybrid and without 1 mil plat in droppables equipped, nobody wants them in their group. The hybrid penalty is driving people away from playing here. Things are barely classic here to begin with considering everyones knowledge of the game, item linking in game, etc. just nix this stupid shit.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I group with anybody... it's only a few folks that are lame like that.


For every super twink person there are at least 3~4 non super twinks... just roll with them.

[Kope]

I group with anybody... it's only a few folks that are lame like that.


For every super twink person there are at least 3~4 non super twinks... just roll with them.

Pretty much this.

I enjoy grouping with everyone generally when I'm on an alt. I have a few good ranger alt friends too...Mind you I give them crud about being a ranger but it's all in good fun :).

"I don't need a ranger for a MM group, no mobs DT here!"

[Kinat]

Easier said than done. It's doable from 1-30, past 30 the crowd thins and I've been to every leveling zone for 30+, nobody wants hybrids.

[mwatt]

Easier said than done. It's doable from 1-30, past 30 the crowd thins and I've been to every leveling zone for 30+, nobody wants hybrids.

This is an exaggeration, but there is some truth in it nonetheless. There are two other undeniable truths that aren't going to go away and that make what you say partially true:
1. Exp penalty modifications will not deviate from the path of changes (Velious gives some relief) that was taken in Classic.
2. Yes, there is much more min/max going on now then in 1999, when there was insufficent knowledge as yet to do much min-maxing. However, by Kunark it was already in full swing on Classic, and it certainly is not going to go away.

You will have to make do as best you can. However, your words may influence a few people to be less restrictive in their grouping choices, so on the whole, I support your post.

[acid_reflux]

I got the supertwink crying game as early as orc hill. Just trying to get a group with a lvl5 bard... he been deleted since then. Only play core classes. I feel your pain.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Well if you around high 40's low 50's i got a 49 cleric... my first on server


i usually end up grouped with 4 or 5 hybrid iksar but w/e lol.. its not a race to 60 imo.

[Hitchens]

I'll group with you.

[fischsemmel]

First off, you listed cleric, enchanter, shaman, and rogue as 4 of the 6 classes that people will accept into groups, assuming that it was (just) their lack of an xp penalty that was the reason, when actually it is mostly because each of those classes is the absolute best class for what they do. You can't match, let alone beat, a cleric healer or an enchanter CCer or a shaman buffer/debuffer or a rogue DPSer.


Getting past that, I am probably one of the most picky people when it comes to groups on this server. I tend to prefer maximizing my xp per hour over just about anything else. But even I don't categorically refuse to group with hybrids.

Now of course I will look for a rogue, a mage, or a necro for DPS before I'd consider a monk (unless we need a puller/FD splitter) or ranger.

And yeah I'd prefer a warrior tank, although given the threat SK and pals can fire off from level 9 when warriors don't have the sweet procs until much, much later, I don't mind hybrid tanks at all.

And as far as bards? They're bards. So what they eat 40% more xp than someone else might? They can do enough nice stuff to make up for that penalty, especially when you're lacking a haster or slower or CCer, or if you're in a caster-heavy group.


It's almost all about the player and not the class, really. I'd rather fill a dps slot with a good bard than a bad rogue. I'd rather have a good iksar shadowknight tank than a bad halfling warrior tank. Etc.

Find some friends who are good players and, no matter what all of your races and classes are, you'll do well.

[drrigs]

And as far as bards? They're bards. So what they eat 40% more xp than someone else might?

Why would letting a ranger, paladin, sk, or bard join your group make everyone earn less exp? I was under the impression that the exp penalty was applied to the individual character.

[formallydickman]

Why would letting a ranger, paladin, sk, or bard join your group make everyone earn less exp? I was under the impression that the exp penalty was applied to the individual character.


http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works

[Kinat]

I've spoken to a few 60s - most hybrids, some not - the number one reason they will not group with them is the experience penalty. Its an ungodly slow grind here. Making it any slower is just stupid.

[Kinat]

And the reason I list core classes is because they carry barely any experience penalty compared to hybrids. They are also far, far more useful in groups.

[rigi]

id group with a ranger, would be awsome for tracking down phat lewtz who cares what exp your making :)

[Galaa]

Why would letting a ranger, paladin, sk, or bard join your group make everyone earn less exp? I was under the impression that the exp penalty was applied to the individual character.

troll SK has a 68% XP penalty.

If a healer forms a group of 3 with a troll SK and a Iksar monk (44% XP penalty), it will be pretty much slow XP gain...

[drrigs]

troll SK has a 68% XP penalty.

If a healer forms a group of 3 with a troll SK and a Iksar monk (44% XP penalty), it will be pretty much slow XP gain...

Slow XP gain depends on the group, not the classes in the group. I've been in groups where we had a monk, a bard, and an SK and the XP flew because we worked as a team and basically chain-pulled. I've also been in a group where I was the only hybrid and the XP was horrible because the group wasn't jiving with each other.

[Galaa]

Slow XP gain depends on the group, not the classes in the group. I've been in groups where we had a monk, a bard, and an SK and the XP flew because we worked as a team and basically chain-pulled. I've also been in a group where I was the only hybrid and the XP was horrible because the group wasn't jiving with each other.

lets say you're a healer in a Troll SK and Iksar monk trio group, and another group has a healer with a halfing race warrior and rogue. Assuming all players are experienced players and knows how to play their role, the warrior/rogue group will level much faster than the troll SK/Iksar monk group...

the troll SK group has a 68% + 44% penalty, and the warrior/rogue group has a 13.55% + 14.5% bonus XP. Big difference in XP gain

[Steaks]

I CAN TASTE THE TEARS ON THIS THREAD NO GROUP WAAAH

you epic pussy bring your bacon to red watch what happens , got a group for you right here please see my sig

[ShadowWulf]

I CAN TASTE THE TEARS ON THIS THREAD NO GROUP WAAAH

you epic pussy bring your bacon to red watch what happens , got a group for you right here please see my sig

Why? There are less groups on R99 and those that can be had can be worse for it in the XP discrimination department. If anything R99 is the soloers dream server and the dedicated groupers nightmare.

[drrigs]

lets say you're a healer in a Troll SK and Iksar monk trio group, and another group has a healer with a halfing race warrior and rogue. Assuming all players are experienced players and knows how to play their role, the warrior/rogue group will level much faster than the troll SK/Iksar monk group...

the troll SK group has a 68% + 44% penalty, and the warrior/rogue group has a 13.55% + 14.5% bonus XP. Big difference in XP gain

Only if the cleric/warrior/rogue group actually handles their pulls consistently. More goes in to the XP rate of a group than the class make-up of the group. Yes, the cleric/SK/Monk group has to kill more things to gain the same XP. But if they can kill faster, avoid long fights because of better pulling, and pull more often because of less down time due to the previous two points, they can kill more things per hour.

[Harrison]

I played a paladin to 50. You're doing it wrong, obviously.

[ShadowWulf]

Assuming all players are experienced players and knows how to play their role, the warrior/rogue group will level much faster than the troll SK/Iksar monk group...


This assumes all else is equal, drrigs, so his point still stands.

[Pomaikai]

Meh! I play a L45 Cleric and I could care less what classes/races I'm grouped with as long as we can keep the pulls rolling. My biggest requirement is that you're fun to chat with in group. Because a good group is going to last hours and nothing but silence, or listening to someone act like an arrogant ass makes for a truly awful grouping experience.

[Grozmok]

I CAN TASTE THE TEARS ON THIS THREAD NO GROUP WAAAH

you epic pussy bring your bacon to red watch what happens , got a group for you right here please see my sig

Being a douche isn't good for the health of the server, just sayin'.

First off, you listed cleric, enchanter, shaman, and rogue as 4 of the 6 classes that people will accept into groups, assuming that it was (just) their lack of an xp penalty that was the reason, when actually it is mostly because each of those classes is the absolute best class for what they do. You can't match, let alone beat, a cleric healer or an enchanter CCer or a shaman buffer/debuffer or a rogue DPSer.


Getting past that, I am probably one of the most picky people when it comes to groups on this server. I tend to prefer maximizing my xp per hour over just about anything else. But even I don't categorically refuse to group with hybrids.

Now of course I will look for a rogue, a mage, or a necro for DPS before I'd consider a monk (unless we need a puller/FD splitter) or ranger.

And yeah I'd prefer a warrior tank, although given the threat SK and pals can fire off from level 9 when warriors don't have the sweet procs until much, much later, I don't mind hybrid tanks at all.

And as far as bards? They're bards. So what they eat 40% more xp than someone else might? They can do enough nice stuff to make up for that penalty, especially when you're lacking a haster or slower or CCer, or if you're in a caster-heavy group.


It's almost all about the player and not the class, really. I'd rather fill a dps slot with a good bard than a bad rogue. I'd rather have a good iksar shadowknight tank than a bad halfling warrior tank. Etc.

Find some friends who are good players and, no matter what all of your races and classes are, you'll do well.
+∞

[Daldaen]

Being a douche isn't good for the health of the server, just sayin'.
Its what R99s do...

[Ssleeve]

Its what R99s do...

If you think Steaks represents the average R99 player, you are dumb.

[Tanx]

i play a warrior.
i played a warrior in live.
i thought about playing a paladin here...
but i didnt like the exp penalty idea...
so i didnt play a paladin.

[Ssleeve]

i play a warrior.
i played a warrior in live.
i thought about playing a paladin here...
but i didnt like the exp penalty idea...
so i didnt play a paladin.

that sucks, PAL are rare =/

[ShadowWulf]

If you think Steaks represents the average R99 player, you are dumb.

You do realize what you just did, right?

[Harrison]

If you think Steaks represents the average R99 player, you are dumb.

No, he is pretty much the quintessential R99 player.

[Yanomamo]

WoW has made people lean towards min/maxing. Min/maxers tend to avoid having a hybrid in the group in order to maximize xp gain.

[Flunklesnarkin]

WoW has made people lean towards min/maxing. Min/maxers tend to avoid having a hybrid in the group in order to maximize xp gain.

I wouldn't blame WoW for that


WoW doesn't really have any original game concepts in it...


the reason they were so successful is they implemented concepts from multiple different mmo's and dumbed them down for the masses.


so saying WoW invented something is really lulzworthy imo...


not to take away from the game.. i appreciate WoW


it keeps retards out of MMO's i like to play.

[sbvera13]

I get it some on my ranger already, and she's only 19 so far. Curiously, these are usually the same people that don't know how to root park or aggro drag to split a multi-pull without FD, split up damage takers when the clerics are lom to reduce the pressure, etc. It's no wonder they don't appreciate hybrids.

At the same time, I've also found a few groups with some terribly awesome and friendly people, so at least it's worth staying on the server overall.


Someone explain to me what the link between WoW and this guy's post is.

Pointless eliteism is one of the hallmarks of the toxic cesspool of testosterone and ritalin that the WoW community has devolved into in the last couple years.

Lastly- supported, actually. We all know the classic mechancs, and (almost) all did the same grind back in the day, and are all smarter and better able to break down the game and encounters today. Hybrid penalties are really not called for in this environment; in classic, nobody even knew about them and it wasn't an issue. People know about them now, and it IS an issue, so for the truly classic experience you should remove them from consideration so players are evaluated on their merits and needed group roles instead. Also, it drives players away if they come here and get shat on, so the server pop will benefit in the long run.

[usedtobejubaloftorv]

Monks used optimally are in a crowd control role, not a dps role.

[taysk8]

im in

[Razdeline]

Have a 55 troll SK and love it, can keep aggro better than any other tank class, mitigate damage well, do decent dps, can solo pull just about anything. Oh and I can fear kite solo if I dont feel like grouping.

Does the xp penalty suck? Sure it does, but this game isnt care bear. I knew about the xp penalty when I played back in live days as well. Part of what makes this game fun is playing what YOU want to play and excelling at that.

Higher levels, people rarely turn down an SK tank too btw, and for good reason. Having the ability to let your whole group go all out on a mob is more efficient than a 68%? xp penalty, which is split amongst the group anyways.

[Ikonoclastia]

When I played live I leveled from about 5 to 80 with around 5 in game friends (war, rogue, sk, cleric, bard). I was enchanter so u proly think it doesnt count but the sk in our group was always welcome cus he was a great guy.

Basically what Im saying is you only have to have a few good friends, be reliable, helpful, and good company n youll usually have ready made groups all the way to end game regardless of class.

[Flunklesnarkin]

WoW represent

<iframe src="http://www.dorkly.com/e/1819" width="600" height="338" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe>


shit son

[SpinFin]

I just hunt with anyone for the adventure. Being new and poor is already a challenge enough.

Iksar - Warrior

[fischsemmel]

When I played live I leveled from about 5 to 80 with around 5 in game friends (war, rogue, sk, cleric, bard). I was enchanter so u proly think it doesnt count but the sk in our group was always welcome cus he was a great guy.

Basically what Im saying is you only have to have a few good friends, be reliable, helpful, and good company n youll usually have ready made groups all the way to end game regardless of class.

Heh.

Your SK friend (and the bard, too) didn't have an xp penalty from some point in velious onwards. And for you to have played to 80, that was at least a significant amount of your total time spent on live, up to potentially all of it depending on when you started playing.

[Timarian]

Ill hunt with any class, and when grouped with hybrids never really noticed myself leveling slower so no issues here.

[Motec]

I group with anyone. On my rogue alt I far prefer a ranger/sk tank as she's such an aggro slut. Xp is so much quicker than with a war.

[Hitchens]

I don't care what classes I'm grouped with because an exp penalty is better than sitting around getting no exp at all.

[Ikonoclastia]

Heh.

Your SK friend (and the bard, too) didn't have an xp penalty from some point in velious onwards. And for you to have played to 80, that was at least a significant amount of your total time spent on live, up to potentially all of it depending on when you started playing.
ha, yeah ur right. I started playing just before luclin. Still I think i wouldnt have cared regardless, but yeah.

[acid_reflux]

I just hunt with anyone for the adventure. Being new and poor is already a challenge enough.

Iksar - Warrior

Props! I got a 78iky war on live.

[eqravenprince]

Seriously, unless you are an enchanter, cleric, warrior, shaman, rogue or monk, you aren't finding a group on this server.

This min/maxing garbage didn't exist back in 1999. Rolling a hybrid is the most depressing thing ever here. People will not group with you.

With Velious not being anywhere near being released, I think hybrid exp penalties should be removed. Once you break into the 30+ level range, theres too many super twinks from high end raiding guilds that discriminate. I have had friends quit playing here because those chose hybrid and without 1 mil plat in droppables equipped, nobody wants them in their group. The hybrid penalty is driving people away from playing here. Things are barely classic here to begin with considering everyones knowledge of the game, item linking in game, etc. just nix this stupid shit.

Min/maxing, class discrimination, and even equipment discrimination certainly did exist back then. If hybrid penalty drives someone away from playing here, then they simply don't like classic EQ. How can you say things are barely classic, all you got is item linking?

[Brad_mo123]

Seriously, unless you are an enchanter, cleric, warrior, shaman, rogue or monk, you aren't finding a group on this server.

This min/maxing garbage didn't exist back in 1999. Rolling a hybrid is the most depressing thing ever here. People will not group with you.

With Velious not being anywhere near being released, I think hybrid exp penalties should be removed. Once you break into the 30+ level range, theres too many super twinks from high end raiding guilds that discriminate. I have had friends quit playing here because those chose hybrid and without 1 mil plat in droppables equipped, nobody wants them in their group. The hybrid penalty is driving people away from playing here. Things are barely classic here to begin with considering everyones knowledge of the game, item linking in game, etc. just nix this stupid shit.

I dont know what you are talking about. Paladin and SK get groups extremely easy because a tank is the 2nd hardest spot to fill and warriors cant hold agro for crap untill they get very good agro weapons and even then you cant comapire them to the agro of an SK or Paladin. Ranger and Druid are hard to get groups with yes. If you are a Ranger, put on anon and tell them you are a warrior, lol. Bard can sometimes be hard to get a group with but they shouldnt be because enchanters are not so easy to find and bard cc with bard mana song is still very good if the bard isnt a tard.

[Grozmok]

Pointless eliteism is one of the hallmarks of the toxic cesspool of testosterone and ritalin that the WoW community has devolved into in the last couple years.

This.

I leave any game as soon as the bros/attitude/keyboard tough guys take over.

[Ssleeve]

You do realize what you just did, right?

Yeah called the people who pretend to think that Steaks is an average red99 player dumb.

They know he is a troll (at least on the forums) and not an average player on the server but they pretend like he is anyway to be assholes and deter people from playing on the server.

So I guess you're right I should have called him an asshole instead of the less offensive "dumb".

[koros]

the funny part is the min-maxers who won't group with a ranger (who more than make up for their xp penalty in an otherwise 5 man group with decent dps), but refuse to goto zones with a high ZEM

[fischsemmel]

the funny part is the min-maxers who won't group with a ranger (who more than make up for their xp penalty in an otherwise 5 man group with decent dps), but refuse to goto zones with a high ZEM

I guess I could make up what you probably meant to say, and I might even get it right. But I just can't be bothered to do that, so I'll just ask this:

wtf?

[Nirgon]

Bring say a troll SK and a bard into a group. Couple that with the frequent AFKs.

[sbvera13]

This.

I leave any game as soon as the bros/attitude/keyboard tough guys take over.

And that is why I'm never going back to wow, no matter how much I enjoy/ed the actual gameplay. Compared to that hive of scum and villainy, a few tards refusing to group with my ranger is bright and refreshing.

[messiah_b]

Bring say a troll SK and a bard into a group. Couple that with the frequent AFKs.

These two things have nothing to do with each other. Frequent afks from any race/class combination slow you down.

Don't group with bad players. Group with good players.

These things are completely independent of race/class/gear, and anyone who thinks they are important fall into the bad player category and shouldn't be grouped with anyways.

[fischsemmel]

bard

Yeah, nobody likes bards. Especially casters, who can have their medding mana regen nearly tripled by a bard. I know that I much prefer being able to cast 1/3 the spells but not have to worry about my group needing 5% more xp to level.

[RiffDaemon]

I just hunt with anyone for the adventure. Being new and poor is already a challenge enough.

Iksar - Warrior

This is one of the best posts I've read here.

[SCB]

I guess I could make up what you probably meant to say, and I might even get it right. But I just can't be bothered to do that, so I'll just ask this:

wtf?

He said he thinks its funny that people will shun certain classes due to xp penalties, but those same people also will not travel to zones with high ZEMs.

I.e., they're min-maxing in their minds, but are doing it very poorly in practice.

[Klax]

Only level 19 but iv been trying to group pretty much the whole time and i have not seen a single person say dont invite that hybrid. Maybe it changes when your higher level but for now i dont see a problem.

Im a enchanter btw not a hybrid, so speaking from within groups.

[azeth]

When everyone identifies "hybrids" that aren't often invited to groups, you're actually exclusively talking about Rangers.

If a group needs a tank they will invite a Pal or Sk.

If a bard is available and LFG, they will likely find a group assuming they know how to twist.

Ranger? sorry folks, don't roll one. We're not going to PoP where you start to make sense.

[Nirgon]

I'll have you know I grouped with bards and SKs quite a bit.

I'm just saying groups by nature are like this and hence why they say omg this xp is terrible so much.

Get to work, bards can speed up pulling outdoors and are quite hardy compared to enchanters as CC'rs.

[erog84]

I agree with a lot of the comments made already. I played a ranger in classic, starting a few months after the game came out all the way to lvl 80. Sadly by the time I got to lvl 20 I had to box a cleric to duo or use the cleric as leverage to get in a group(if a group needed a healer, I would heal outside group while ranger grouped just to get some xp). Anyday of the week a good player > a crappy player, regardless of xp penalties. But what if gear/skill is the same? That is how I look at it for those that I don't know yet. Also while I am by NO MEANS worried about racing to lvl 60 (i love starting new characters and lvling up with people), I do like to see my xp move, and when you group for an hour to get 5% xp, it can suck(at level 30).

This is how I look at things:
- Sk/Pal doesn't cross my mind unless we already have a tank. If so, I personally try to find dps classes that don't have such high penalties.
- Bards, unless we already have an enchanter, I won't ever hesitate to invite a bard.
- Rangers, sadly while I love rangers, I just don't see the point of inviting one to my group unless they are well geared when there is always plenty of other dps around. Rangers are rare as is, I can't even remember the last time I grouped with a ranger.

[fuark]

I played a ranger to 40 here a while back. Never once had an issue getting a group, and in fact had multiple people that would always invite me to group the moment I logged on. These same people leveled on in KC, seb, etc and I know had I kept playing that char I would have had groups there as well.

All it comes down to is whether you show the people you group with that you play your class well.

Specifically for rangers, pull well, leave no downtime, do damage, and people will invite you.

Of course I don't like the locked time investment of grouping for exp to begin with, so stopped playing melee period.

[Grozmok]

Someone help me out here, what's a rangers job in the EQ group dynamic?

DPS?
Damage mitigation?

To this day I'm still not sure. I just thought they were added to the game because of Aragon in LoTR...

[Ssleeve]

Someone help me out here, what's a rangers job in the EQ group dynamic?

DPS?
Damage mitigation?

To this day I'm still not sure. I just thought they were added to the game because of Aragon in LoTR...

DPS, pulling, and some Utility.

[sbvera13]

- Rangers, sadly while I love rangers, I just don't see the point of inviting one to my group unless they are well geared when there is always plenty of other dps around. Rangers are rare as is, I can't even remember the last time I grouped with a ranger.

Rangers are a DPS/Control combo. They do this with root and snare, and incredible aggro control. I can pull of an enchanter who's charm just broke without half trying, and either drag the mob away from group and root park, or hold him long enough to regain CC. I can peel off healers and nukers the same way. I can grab aggro and offtank at will to split incoming damage and reduce pressure on the MT, and release it just as quickly by rooting and stepping away just long enough for MT to regain aggro (or using Jolt come Velious and lvl 55). While a ranger is no tank, it CAN take significant hits, so it can do all this without risking an instant facesplatter like an enchanter would if CC fails. I can even MT in the right group, not by virtue of damage mitigation, but by controlling the mobs enough that I never have more then 1 hitting on me at a time. I can even aggro tank while taking no melee damage at all, by snaring the mob, running in small circles, and using spells to hold aggro extremely well (this assumes an open, cleared area is available). And when all this is done or in places it's not needed, I'm back in melee delivering pain again. No other melee class has this flexibility. I think that's more then worth a little lower DPS compared to a rogue.

Nobody bothers to notice that they have this ability, though.

[ShadowWulf]

Rangers are a DPS/Control combo. They do this with root and snare, and incredible aggro control. I can pull of an enchanter who's charm just broke without half trying, and either drag the mob away from group and root park, or hold him long enough to regain CC. I can peel off healers and nukers the same way. I can grab aggro and offtank at will to split incoming damage and reduce pressure on the MT, and release it just as quickly by rooting and stepping away just long enough for MT to regain aggro (or using Jolt come Velious and lvl 55). While a ranger is no tank, it CAN take significant hits, so it can do all this without risking an instant facesplatter like an enchanter would if CC fails. I can even MT in the right group, not by virtue of damage mitigation, but by controlling the mobs enough that I never have more then 1 hitting on me at a time. I can even aggro tank while taking no melee damage at all, by snaring the mob, running in small circles, and using spells to hold aggro extremely well (this assumes an open, cleared area is available). And when all this is done or in places it's not needed, I'm back in melee delivering pain again. No other melee class has this flexibility. I think that's more then worth a little lower DPS compared to a rogue.

Nobody bothers to notice that they have this ability, though.

Except for the Melee tanking you just described a Druid, who can out heal out travel and out buff a ranger while usually doing comparable DPS unless the ranger has dumped a ridiculous amount of Plat on gear.

[Raelador]

I just don't remember Rangers being perceived as useless. I played on Xegony during Kunark/Velious and I remember several popular high lvl rangers who always had the best gear. I also don't remember ever denying a person because they were a hybrid or being denied because I was a hybrid.

If someone on this server denies you a group because you're a hybrid I would encourage you to post his/her name on the forums so we can bash them so hard for dissuading people from leveling on this great server.

[SirAlvarex]

Back in the day? As a ranger who only played into his 30's, the only negative thing I ever came across were the "Ranger Down..." jokes, and people trying to convince me I was a tank since I had taunt.

If anything we were considered aggro hogs due to the "Ranger Down..." jokes. I constantly found that I would peal aggro, even not being uberly geared. Of course this was back in 2001ish, where Twinks were few and far between.

I hate the XP penalty. I agree with those who say that knowing about the XP penalty breaks classicness. If anything, if they wanted to mimic classic they would randomize the XP penalty across all classes, and then tell people they removed it. It wouldn't mimic classic in that the XP penalties are different, but it would mimic everything else about XP penalties.

Or you know...juts remove them.

[sbvera13]

Except for the Melee tanking you just described a Druid, who can out heal out travel and out buff a ranger while usually doing comparable DPS unless the ranger has dumped a ridiculous amount of Plat on gear.

Perhaps, but the tanking is important if your'e gonna be drawing aggro to drag mobs around and position them for the group, and it frees up the druid to be doing more important things. Also, ranger DPS doesn't go oom. They are useful, though not as powerful as specialist are when operating within their specialization, but if you have a min/maxing mindset then why bother bringing anything other then warrior/cleric/wizard with you?

[Pomaikai]

If you think Steaks represents the average R99 player, you are dumb.

Steaks is the poster child of R99...

[Pomaikai]

Back in the day? As a ranger who only played into his 30's, the only negative thing I ever came across were the "Ranger Down..." jokes, and people trying to convince me I was a tank since I had taunt.

If anything we were considered aggro hogs due to the "Ranger Down..." jokes. I constantly found that I would peal aggro, even not being uberly geared. Of course this was back in 2001ish, where Twinks were few and far between.

I hate the XP penalty. I agree with those who say that knowing about the XP penalty breaks classicness. If anything, if they wanted to mimic classic they would randomize the XP penalty across all classes, and then tell people they removed it. It wouldn't mimic classic in that the XP penalties are different, but it would mimic everything else about XP penalties.

Or you know...juts remove them.
Most of that, as a Cleric, is when you were grouped with a player who played a Ranger poorly and had the mobs ping ponging back and forth between the tank and the Ranger. This is what we referred to as a "mana sponge". And yes, those Rangers died a lot. Usually because my attention was keeping the tank and CC alive, and the idiot Ranger who kept grabbing agro and getting beaten on was quite frankly not high enough on my list of players who I really needed to keep alive. On the other hand, a properly played Ranger is awesome to behold, but I still tease them good naturedly. It's a Cleric thing. What can I say?

[Raelador]

Most of that, as a Cleric, is when you were grouped with a player who played a Ranger poorly and had the mobs ping ponging back and forth between the tank and the Ranger. This is what we referred to as a "mana sponge". And yes, those Rangers died a lot. Usually because my attention was keeping the tank and CC alive, and the idiot Ranger who kept grabbing agro and getting beaten on was quite frankly not high enough on my list of players who I really needed to keep alive. On the other hand, a properly played Ranger is awesome to behold, but I still tease them good naturedly. It's a Cleric thing. What can I say?

A bit testy are we?

[Radiskull]

I hate the XP penalty. I agree with those who say that knowing about the XP penalty breaks classicness. If anything, if they wanted to mimic classic they would randomize the XP penalty across all classes, and then tell people they removed it. It wouldn't mimic classic in that the XP penalties are different, but it would mimic everything else about XP penalties.

Or you know...juts remove them.

Or, by this logic, they could just say they remove the exp penalty and leave it. This is even more classic then your solution. Am I right?

[webrunner5]

Most of that, as a Cleric, is when you were grouped with a player who played a Ranger poorly and had the mobs ping ponging back and forth between the tank and the Ranger. This is what we referred to as a "mana sponge". And yes, those Rangers died a lot. Usually because my attention was keeping the tank and CC alive, and the idiot Ranger who kept grabbing agro and getting beaten on was quite frankly not high enough on my list of players who I really needed to keep alive. On the other hand, a properly played Ranger is awesome to behold, but I still tease them good naturedly. It's a Cleric thing. What can I say?

I played a Cleric also for years on classic. I hated Rangers also. I call them a "Mana Sink". They are agro whores and just die way to often. And as a Cleric you hate to see anyone die but I just gave up worrying about Rangers in my groups. Go up on a hill and shoot arrows plz.

[Kriven]

I had a troll SK here, gave up in the mid 40's... due to the vast amount of LFG time (including running around/porting to different zones to shout lfg)...with many other hybrids around I think the main fear is having 2 hybrids in a group. I've grouped with a bard and ranger before and dear god, the pulls were great but the XP penalty was a killer.

Rarely AFK'd, was always happy to pull in the absence of a monk/bard, had a good reputation and enjoyed the group banter ;)

Such a fun class, great aggro control and when groups were to be had the best time I had was playing a SK. Tempted to try again but rolled a cleric and trying to focus on him :P

Just typing this makes me want to try again :D

[fischsemmel]

I've grouped with a bard and ranger before and dear god, the pulls were great but the XP penalty was a killer.

Cleric, warrior, rogue, rogue, enchanter, shaman
vs.
Cleric, troll SK, rogue, ranger, enchanter, bard

The latter is going to need like 20-25% more xp for everyone to get 1 level than the former needs. That's not a difference you are going to "feel." You would need to keep an eye on % of level earned per hour with each of those groups in order to tell there was an xp earning difference.

But you state that the pulls were "great" in the group with the hybrids. Personally I wouldn't pulling in a group "great" unless it was at least 20-25% more/faster than "normal pulling."


And just for fun, let's compare a bit more.
Halfling cleric (.95), halfling warrior (.855), halfling rogue (.8645), halfling rogue (.8645), enchanter (1.1) , barbarian shaman (1.05)
vs.
Halfling cleric (.95), Troll SK (1.68), ranger (1.4), barbarian rogue (.9555), enchanter (1.1), bard (1.4)

5.684
vs.
7.486

Pros of former relative to latter group: 31% faster xp. Halfling rogue will outdamage ranger. Sham slow and melee buffs are better than bard/ench slow and melee bufs.

Pros of latter relative to former group: Tank has better aggro, more hp, more damage, SK spells, FD-pull potential, troll regen, slam. Ranger has an interesting mix of dps, tanking, and cc potential, though shouldn't really be relied on for any one of them too heavily. Barbarian rogue has better damage and slam compared to halfling rogue. Bard is tough to nail down... potentially allows ench to do massive dps with charm, significantly increases party mana and hp regen, and fills in a bunch of little gaps in CC, debuffing, buffing, and maybe DPSing.

Which group is better overall? Can you tell? Because I sure can't.

[Baervan]

If someone on this server denies you a group because you're a hybrid I would encourage you to post his/her name on the forums so we can bash them so hard for dissuading people from leveling on this great server.

Beovvulf ;)

[Radiskull]

Pros of latter relative to former group: Tank has better aggro, more hp, more damage, SK spells, FD-pull potential, troll regen, slam. Ranger has an interesting mix of dps, tanking, and cc potential, though shouldn't really be relied on for any one of them too heavily. Barbarian rogue has better damage and slam compared to halfling rogue. Bard is tough to nail down... potentially allows ench to do massive dps with charm, significantly increases party mana and hp regen, and fills in a bunch of little gaps in CC, debuffing, buffing, and maybe DPSing.

Which group is better overall? Can you tell? Because I sure can't.

Warriors have more hp and dps then a shadow knight, and a good warrior doesn't have a problem with aggro with two rogues as the primary dps. I feel that hybrid tanks aren't that big of a deal in groups. I'd rather be killing with a hybrid tank then not killing without one. I, personally, always check for a warrior first, but never hesitate to invite a PAL or SK if they are what is available.

This isn't a race bonus conversation, it's a class one, so why bring up barbarian vs halfling rogue? Each group has an enchanter, tank, rogue and cleric, so we can call them a wash. So it becomes Rogue Shaman vs. Bard Ranger. Can you tell the difference, cause I sure can.

[fischsemmel]

Warriors have more hp and dps then a shadow knight, and a good warrior doesn't have a problem with aggro with two rogues as the primary dps.

At what point does a tank warrior with 30+ lower str and sta pass a tank SK in hp and dps? I was under the impression that those stats plus the SK pet and spells would more than make up for the warrior having a better damage table.

This isn't a race bonus conversation, it's a class one, so why bring up barbarian vs halfling rogue? Each group has an enchanter, tank, rogue and cleric, so we can call them a wash. So it becomes Rogue Shaman vs. Bard Ranger. Can you tell the difference, cause I sure can.

My bad, I was starting to feel like it was more a discussion of xp penalties than just hybrid xp penalties.

Fine then. Rogue shaman vs. bard ranger. The group with the two hybrids needs only ~13% more xp than the group without. 3 blues on a level. That's not a difference you can notice unless you're leveling under laboratory conditions.

And while the rogue brings more damage than the ranger, that's all he brings. And while the shaman buffs are amazing for melee and slow is awesome for everyone, not every group is stacked with melee and enc/bard slows are nothing to sneeze at, while the bard also brings some unique and powerful tools to the group (mana regen, resists, and a bit of everything else).

With good players behind each keyboard, at best you can't put your finger on which group is going to perform better overall just because one has ranger and bard and the other has any two non-hybrids. Though I'll admit that I'd rather have a bad rogue in my group than a bad bard or a bad ranger.

[Radiskull]

At what point does a tank warrior with 30+ lower str and sta pass a tank SK in hp and dps? I was under the impression that those stats plus the SK pet and spells would more than make up for the warrior having a better damage table.



My bad, I was starting to feel like it was more a discussion of xp penalties than just hybrid xp penalties.

Fine then. Rogue shaman vs. bard ranger. The group with the two hybrids needs only ~13% more xp than the group without. 3 blues on a level. That's not a difference you can notice unless you're leveling under laboratory conditions.

And while the rogue brings more damage than the ranger, that's all he brings. And while the shaman buffs are amazing for melee and slow is awesome for everyone, not every group is stacked with melee and enc/bard slows are nothing to sneeze at, while the bard also brings some unique and powerful tools to the group (mana regen, resists, and a bit of everything else).

You pulled the race card again... this isn't about race! I have NEVER heard anyone complain about race exp penalties. The day I see someone say "Man, this ogre exp penalty is bogus!", I'll eat my words, but until then, lets drop it. A shaman slowing for a halfling warrior vs an enchanter slowing for an ogre... I have no data to back this up, but I'd say at worst it's even, but still irrelevant since we aren't talking race.

3 blues at level 54+ is a lot of experience. And with 60 levels... 3 blues per level multiplied by 60 levels... you see where I'm going? Not to mention that you're killing slower because rogue dps > ranger dps, so kills per hour goes down, furthering the gap in experience gain. The point is, there is a reason for the discrimination. If rogues had the 40% penalties, and rangers the 10% bonus, people would invite more rangers. They bring LESS to the table (as a dps slot) and require more experience for everyone grouped with them, making them less desired.

[Kriven]

Halfling cleric (.95), halfling warrior (.855), halfling rogue (.8645), halfling rogue (.8645), enchanter (1.1) , barbarian shaman (1.05)
vs.
Halfling cleric (.95), Troll SK (1.68), ranger (1.4), barbarian rogue (.9555), enchanter (1.1), bard (1.4)

5.684
vs.
7.486

Pros of former relative to latter group: 31% faster xp. Halfling rogue will outdamage ranger. Sham slow and melee buffs are better than bard/ench slow and melee bufs.

Pros of latter relative to former group: Tank has better aggro, more hp, more damage, SK spells, FD-pull potential, troll regen, slam. Ranger has an interesting mix of dps, tanking, and cc potential, though shouldn't really be relied on for any one of them too heavily. Barbarian rogue has better damage and slam compared to halfling rogue. Bard is tough to nail down... potentially allows ench to do massive dps with charm, significantly increases party mana and hp regen, and fills in a bunch of little gaps in CC, debuffing, buffing, and maybe DPSing.

Which group is better overall? Can you tell? Because I sure can't.

Nice math, I'd never sat down (or thought to) to compare the extremes.

Which group is better? Depends on the camp and the quantity of mobs/do they single pull/etc...but overall more than 2 hybrids (especially when playing a troll SK anyway) seems to break the exp bar.

As always though, six skilled players who want exp and not frequent AFKs will battle hard to overcome the slowdown even if there's a SK, ranger and bard all involved...if camp allows for frequent pulls.

[fischsemmel]

You pulled the race card again... this isn't about race! I have NEVER heard anyone complain about race exp penalties. The day I see someone say "Man, this ogre exp penalty is bogus!", I'll eat my words, but until then, lets drop it. A shaman slowing for a halfling warrior vs an enchanter slowing for an ogre... I have no data to back this up, but I'd say at worst it's even, but still irrelevant since we aren't talking race.

3 blues at level 54+ is a lot of experience. And with 60 levels... 3 blues per level multiplied by 60 levels... you see where I'm going? Not to mention that you're killing slower because rogue dps > ranger dps, so kills per hour goes down, furthering the gap in experience gain. The point is, there is a reason for the discrimination. If rogues had the 40% penalties, and rangers the 10% bonus, people would invite more rangers. They bring LESS to the table (as a dps slot) and require more experience for everyone grouped with them, making them less desired.

Sorry, can't help but play the race card when the last few posts of mine started by quoting someone who played a troll shadowknight and commented that with him and a bard and a ranger in the group, the pulls were great but the xp was slow.

And actually when you consider 13% over the course of 60 levels? It depends on how you look at it. 13% over 60 levels is the difference between being a couple blues into 59 and being a freshly-dinged 60.

And rangers don't bring less to the table than rogues do. They bring less DPS to the table, yes. But so does everyone else, and yet you still don't see any groups of 6 rogues running around being successful now do you?

[fischsemmel]

Anyone else feeling the urge to make a thread titled "Please make rogues and warriors solo as well as bards"?

Lol :)

[Kriven]

Sorry, can't help but play the race card when the last few posts of mine started by quoting someone who played a troll shadowknight and commented that with him and a bard and a ranger in the group, the pulls were great but the xp was slow.

Play a troll SK, feel the exp penalty and the hatred and rejection that comes with it sometimes...that's all I was pointing out, and I wasn't directing it at anyone's post, just putting my experiences of doing so across.

The penalty might be shared, but to a slow moving troll SK exp bar, its like walking through mud when you add a couple more hybrids into a group with a "typical" pull rate.

Well, get that... a hybrid hates other hybrids, who'd have thought :D

[Radiskull]

If you think those posts were complaints about him being a troll, you are mistaken. It was about the Shadow Knight part. The OP was about not being able to get a group on a hybrid. It was not about not being able to get a group as a troll. Trolls aren't being claimed to be avoided like the plague, hybrids are.

[fischsemmel]

If you think those posts were complaints about him being a troll, you are mistaken. It was about the Shadow Knight part. The OP was about not being able to get a group on a hybrid. It was not about not being able to get a group as a troll. Trolls aren't being claimed to be avoided like the plague, hybrids are.

I wasn't talking about the OP, and I specified who I was talking about. This guy:

I had a troll SK here, gave up in the mid 40's... due to the vast amount of LFG time (including running around/porting to different zones to shout lfg)...with many other hybrids around I think the main fear is having 2 hybrids in a group. I've grouped with a bard and ranger before and dear god, the pulls were great but the XP penalty was a killer.

... who was talking about troll and shadowknight, not just shadowknight.




Anyways. I really think it comes down to is this. Hybrids gained utility and convenience that enabled them to function in a wider variety of situations than pure melees could. Someone decided that the price they had to pay for this was a 40% xp penalty.

Warriors and rogues pay their own price for their specialization and lack of an xp penalty in that they are not useful outside of groups. When a shadowknight who couldn't find a group was out fear kiting stuff for mediocre xp or a paladin was single-pulling undead in a dungeon or a ranger was kiting down stuff and tracking up a storm or a bard was killing an entire zone off... the warriors and rogues who couldn't find groups were sitting around doing nothing.

Where things went wrong was that some classes ended up being as desired as a warrior or a rogue in groups and also more capable of handling a variety of situations than hybrids, but they escaped without a stiff experience penalty.

And nothing is going to change any of this.

[fischsemmel]

I don't really know how this thread got this far anyways, based on where it started.

Whats with the World of Warcraft Crowd?

Lol.

Seriously, unless you are an enchanter, cleric, warrior, shaman, rogue or monk, you aren't finding a group on this server.

Exaggeration.

This min/maxing garbage didn't exist back in 1999.

Untruth.

Rolling a hybrid is the most depressing thing ever here.

It is what you make it.

People will not group with you.

Another exaggeration.

With Velious not being anywhere near being released, I think hybrid exp penalties should be removed. Once you break into the 30+ level range, theres too many super twinks from high end raiding guilds that discriminate.

Random nonsense.

I have had friends quit playing here because those chose hybrid and without 1 mil plat in droppables equipped, nobody wants them in their group.

Still more exaggeration.

The hybrid penalty is driving people away from playing here.

Whoa. Probably some truth here. Too bad what's way, way more true is that how close this server comes to being a classic experience is what makes any people come here in the first place.

Things are barely classic here to begin with considering everyones knowledge of the game, item linking in game, etc. just nix this stupid shit.

Might as well argue that since life on earth is barely a utopian existence, considering everyone being imperfect, the internet, etc., just blow it all to hell.


8 pages of posts because of this guy's drivel.

[Razdeline]

I group with anyone. On my rogue alt I far prefer a ranger/sk tank as she's such an aggro slut. Xp is so much quicker than with a war.

this

[Kriven]

... who was talking about troll and shadowknight, not just shadowknight.

The topic was centered around the supposed "bad news" that comes with grouping with hybrids, and a suggestion that there's no groups to be had for those who roll one.

While that isn't entirely true, there is an element of slant and some who don't want a hybrid tank (madness, I know). All I was doing was relating my experience as being on the shitty end of the exp penalty, 68% as was rightly pointed out. So in fact, the bias against troll/iksar SKs is the most severe if what the OP says is true.

Allow a thread to develop, without ripping people's posts apart for the sake of it ;)

[deener]

Having played a bard from 99-02 and playing now on p99, I can't help but reply to this thread...

- If you're looking for conversation, don't invite a good bard to the group. S/he is far too busy twisting (even in down time) to bother with much chat

- Bard dps is always underestimated. Bring 2 or more every time- I'll keep one charmed to increase dps and the others mezzed

- I think the hybrid exp penalty is totally deserved when considering our ability to solo, travel fast (in the case of bards and rangers), and the utility. However, I do see it as unfair that pure casters don't have the penalty as well since they have the same benefits. Wars, rogs, monks, clerics- give them some love.


My only gripe on not getting groups is that you should at least try out a hybrid (or anyone else) first prior to casting judgement. A druid could perform as a better healer than a cleric... don't need to draw on a ton of other comparisons.

Oh, and if anyone is actually playing p99 to race to 60, then I have to wonder...

[Nirgon]

Big difference between someone experienced playing a bard and someone that rolled one cuz they thought they'd know how to swarm kite and lambent armor looked cool.

[deener]

I completely agree. Just don't think all bards are the ones that want to look purdy... I see getting into a group with peeps that don't know me as a try-out. If I suck, then I should be replaced (same with all classes).

[Pomaikai]

Yeah, I understand about bard twisting interfering with conversation. Our guild on Live had a Ventrillo server, and we were all in voice chat. When we made a group, we also made a channel for that group so we could stay in contact. Quite frankly, that voice chat was not only just fun, but it sure did help with group communication. If a CHeal was looking like it was going to be too slow, I could call out for fast spot heal, or for someone to FD. It helped with splits, pulls, knowing what was inc, and of course the Bards finally got to really engage in conversation with the rest of us. There were groups where nothing was pretty much ever said in text chat at all. Just spell, pull, mez, and other hotkeyed messages.

[Pomaikai]

As a Cleric, my premier concern is mana regen, as that is what determines what we can kill, how much we can kill, and how long we can kill. So my ideal group is probably a little slanted, but what did I really enjoy?

Me, Chanter, Bard, Necro, SK, (Any other class). The first four all provided me mana regen, although I don't know at what point SK's can start tapping the mobs to provide me mana on P1999, or if they will ever get that ability. It sure enhanced their desirability on Live once they got it, and made them one of my favorite tank/utility classes. Bard charm, CC, pulling, resist buffs, dps, and of course mana song made them one of the most desirable classes in the game for me.

Necro's had awesome DPS, could pull, made killing undead easy when coupled with my undead nukes, could recover our corpses quickly instead of wasting tons of time, and of course twitched.

Chanters? Mind candy, CC, haste, slow, increased mana pool, dps, resists, and stunning caster mobs.

Beyond that, any other class worked awesome. But that was just an ideal group at the level I played at. Quite frankly I'd play in some of the oddest group combinations and strangely enough, almost every one of those odd assed combinations worked just fine.

[fischsemmel]

twitched.

You sure that it wouldn't be better for the necro to use his over-time life transfers and then use his mana to lifetap, instead of trading it to the cleric at ~3:1 ratio? Especially when the cleric already has an enchanter and a bard for mana?

[Sporkotron]

I'll group with any tank, but no group needs more than one Hybrid.

....and Rangers are a waste of EXP.

[sbvera13]

I'll group with any tank, but no group needs more than one Hybrid.

....and Rangers are a waste of EXP.

Back to WoW with you.

[Sporkotron]

Personally I think people who look down on min/maxer are the MMO equivalent of hipster douche bags. "Go play WoW or some other "mainstream" game if you don't want to waste as much time as humanly possible on account of people poor charecter choices." I played EQ from Kunark 'til POP on live and I never made a peep about my XP rate. Now its a decade later and things have changed, I have a job, a wife, a social life and hobbies outside of video games. Of course I'm going to want to progress as much as possible with the little time I have to play.

Long story short, get off your high horse you whiney neckbeard. Not everyone has hours and hours to waste on groups full of xp sponges.

[sbvera13]

Lemme help you with that...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Mirror.jpg

[Sporkotron]

Okay, lemme refraise it for you, ass.

I don't have as much time to play as I did twelve years ago, but the time I do have to play I would like to feel like I accomplished something ingame. Xp spounges make that more difficult, so if I can I avoid grouping with more than one of them at a time.

If you think that is unreasonable, then you're likely a fatty who has nothing going on in his life aside from video games.

[Swish]

If you're goals are short term then by all means take the min/max path.... if you're in no rush and want to just enjoy logging on and grouping, being social and having a good time with whoever makes up a group then cut people some slack, invite a ranger along.

In my experience the min/max type who absolutely refuses to group with the likes of an iksar/troll SK is usually AFK heavy and isn't putting the effort in. Who'd have thought?

[sbvera13]

Okay, lemme refraise it for you, ass.

I don't have as much time to play as I did twelve years ago, but the time I do have to play I would like to feel like I accomplished something ingame. Xp spounges make that more difficult, so if I can I avoid grouping with more than one of them at a time.

If you think that is unreasonable, then you're likely a fatty who has nothing going on in his life aside from video games.

Unneeded swear words? Check.

Elevating the needs of the self and expecting others to step aside and conform, without so much as asking them nicely? Check.

Insults? Check.

Insults of the lifestyle/you're a nerd/get a girlfriend variety? Double check.

This is a textbook example of toxic and puerile community that has developed around WoW. Your justifications for the behavior are unimportant. You are being a dick. The OP is vindicated.

[Pomaikai]

You sure that it wouldn't be better for the necro to use his over-time life transfers and then use his mana to lifetap, instead of trading it to the cleric at ~3:1 ratio? Especially when the cleric already has an enchanter and a bard for mana?

When the fit hits the shan, I fucking want it all! Just sayin'... :D