Ragefire Agreement/Rotation

[muggro]

Camped out in Naggy's Lair to await the call to support Ninik. I cordially invite the rest of the server to join me.

[Autotune]

I can get to naggy lair and help regardless of the time for ninik. Least i can do to return the free rezzes in lguk/mistmoore.

[Kole1]

wasnt talkin to anyone, just was saying what I thought people who made this original agreement had in mind in terms of post-patch.

[bizzum]

wasnt talkin to anyone, just was saying what I thought people who made this original agreement had in mind in terms of post-patch.

No not you, Bisch =p

I just responded to her before reading what you said. I agree with a server wide guild rotation as long as they are up to that point, especially with the giant increase in his spawns.

[Glitterati]

Well maybe it's time now for all us guild leaders to get together and talk over some sort of agreement, I know Dumesh has said in this very thread he'd be willing to host a summit about Ragefire....

[Autotune]

wasnt talkin to anyone, just was saying what I thought people who made this original agreement had in mind in terms of post-patch.

should do this, each guild (TMO, IB, VD, Taken, BDA, DIV) get together and select a cleric representative.

These 6 then decide on other guilds that should be considered and then get their representative.

These reps come together and decide the order of the rotation.

Fair in all sense of the word.

Rules could be simple

You wipe, miss or can't get a kill force in the time frame, you forfeit ur turn to the rotation and then the next guild in line.

all guilds are allowed outside assistance.

Ur stupid cleric epic problem is now solved.

[Calabee]

As a bard guildie said, let's get our cle alts epics since we cant get our bards!

[Aata]

Pretty much been in there 48 hrs solid on one toon or another, let's get some sort of rotation going (+1 Stealin post)

[tsonka]

I wuz dere when Naggy died, an' I campded dere (dint wants click 'gainst Maultriss, VD also dint has none cleric epics yet an' Maultriss very active an' also VERYVERY NICE NOTAGNOME) so I camed back when human Ragefire spawnded to offers helps squish dragon an' to start mine's camp fer nex' one, cuz I thoughted mebbe now mine's turn. I was tellded dat not only nex' one not mine's turn, but none all week. I stayded fer liddle while an' thoughted 'bout clickin' 'gainst the folks who wuz dere, but after talkin' to some folks, an' thinkin' 'bout alla stuffs I've learnded dis week 'bout how dis server works, I realizeded dat I wuz miser'ble sittin' dere. As I allays saided 'bout dis game, iffin you is not havin' fun, you is doin' it WRONG! So I leaved. Not decided yet wut I am wants to do nex'. All I know fer sure is dat playin' a game s'posedta be FUN, an' gettin' epic supposedta be LOTSA FUN! I wuz doin' somethin' wrong.



The people on this server are very selfish and spiteful, I am suprised anyone finds it fun anymore

[Lostprophets]

let's get some sort of rotation going (+1 Stealin post)

this.

No more greed/leapfrogging/ass hattery/poopsocking.

Everybody should have a chance if they're capable to get their pearls.

[Motec]

Stealin, the problem is ALL of the TMO clerics and Zeelot refuse to take part in a rotation. Its been tried many times now.

Pull your fucking heads in. Why are the simplest things so fucking difficult.

[Autotune]

Stealin, the problem is ALL of the TMO clerics and Zeelot refuse to take part in a rotation. Its been tried many times now.

Pull your fucking heads in. Why are the simplest things so fucking difficult.

i bet they aren't.

If they are, they are going to have a rude awakening when they try to turn in pearls

[Ele]

Stealin, the problem is ALL of the TMO clerics and Zeelot refuse to take part in a rotation. Its been tried many times now.

Pull your fucking heads in. Why are the simplest things so fucking difficult.

Stop spreading bullshit and using such absolutes.

[Xeliso]

Stealin, the problem is ALL of the TMO clerics and Zeelot refuse to take part in a rotation. Its been tried many times now.

Pull your fucking heads in. Why are the simplest things so fucking difficult.

Lol @ this not thinking I haven't talked to people in VD/IB.

You are so clueless sometimes sir.

[Bruman]

Everyone is obviously interested in helping Ninik get her epic.

Just right after they get theirs, of course.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I like how TMO and IB have monopolized Ragefire, and now that neither can have it for a week, everyone expects VD to give up Ragefires and somehow we're the jerks? Lol

As was said before... if IB or TMO cared about giving a Ragefire to Ninik, they could have given one of their rotated spawns up. But they didn't.

[maverixdamighty]

Ragefire has also been changed this week that is a new dynamic for the situation. No one expects VD to do anything, but you are calling out IB/TMO for doing something that you are trying to do yourself, are you not? I'll be there contesting every ragefire that pops if Ninik wants to, but it doesn't seem like she wants to even bother with the current attitude of some players there.

[Motec]

Lol @ thinking I havn't spoken to everyone BUT you, as Zeelot's response to a rotation was demanding flat out that TMO gets the next 3 ragefires uncontested.

Dont put the PR machine on, you fuckwits showed your cards when the entire server wanted a rotation, and now your current hand is to get multiple free ragefires uncontested before going into a rotation?

Ele. You should remember fondly the multiple attempts at a rotation that have been tried with you, xeli etc, between me, nirron and god knows who else that Zeelot knocks back and you lap dogs cop sweet.

A rotation: (remembering the first few ragefires were a rotation based on hours put into the camp). Should simply go between VD/BDA/Taken/Divinity/TMO and IB.

Not TMO/TMO/TMO/other guilds as Zeelot demands to start with.

Attention P1999, 10 man click fest due to commence as soon as raid suspension is complete as some TMO members halt any sort of cooperative progress on this server. And you wonder why epics and VP are held ransom against us...

It's mind numbing to try and talk to you guys. And I WANT a rotation, and still to save any conflict of interest, i'll go LAST as I do not give a fuck for epic. I care for there being a trouble free agreement between us all so we can play in peace and harbour friendships.

[Autotune]

Lol @ thinking I havn't spoken to everyone BUT you, as Zeelot's response to a rotation was demanding flat out that TMO gets the next 3 ragefires uncontested.

Dont put the PR machine on, you fuckwits showed your cards when the entire server wanted a rotation, and now your current hand is to get multiple free ragefires uncontested before going into a rotation?

Ele. You should remember fondly the multiple attempts at a rotation that have been tried with you, xeli etc, between me, nirron and god knows who else that Zeelot knocks back and you lap dogs cop sweet.

A rotation: (remembering the first few ragefires were a rotation based on hours put into the camp). Should simply go between VD/BDA/Taken/Divinity/TMO and IB.

Not TMO/TMO/TMO/other guilds as Zeelot demands to start with.

Attention P1999, 10 man click fest due to commence as soon as raid suspension is complete as some TMO members halt any sort of cooperative progress on this server. And you wonder why epics and VP are held ransom against us...

It's mind numbing to try and talk to you guys. And I WANT a rotation, and still to save any conflict of interest, i'll go LAST as I do not give a fuck for epic. I care for there being a trouble free agreement between us all so we can play in peace and harbour friendships.

i don't care what tag you wear, mine or otherwise, until ninik gets her epic, i'm going to personally make it as impossible as hell for anyone to do the turnin.

You've all been warned.

[Motec]

I like how TMO and IB have monopolized Ragefire, and now that neither can have it for a week, everyone expects VD to give up Ragefires and somehow we're the jerks? Lol

As was said before... if IB or TMO cared about giving a Ragefire to Ninik, they could have given one of their rotated spawns up. But they didn't.

Ninnik? I play 14hrs a day and dont accept anything for rezzes, often running across the world to do them, flybys, CR's etc. I just do it because I am online with mana and usually bored. Whats so special about ninnik that deserves one aside from writing broken english shit I cant read? But I'll bite, simply because I have faith that so many people simply cant be wrong :D

Noone has approached either guild to arrange giving her an epic though. Instead of crying about it here or blaming raid guilds, how about someone sends us a PM and we work it out? All these people on her side, yet noone standing up to make it happen. And it can happen.

[Bruman]

I like how TMO and IB have monopolized Ragefire, and now that neither can have it for a week, everyone expects VD to give up Ragefires and somehow we're the jerks? Lol

As was said before... if IB or TMO cared about giving a Ragefire to Ninik, they could have given one of their rotated spawns up. But they didn't.

I don't think anyone is calling you jerks. I think people were just hoping that with IB/TMO out for a week, that the rest of the guilds could show the server what it could be like if guilds worked together more and tried to co-operate.

If you guys feel that IB/TMO have been jerks about this, and other raid-related issues, then it's up to you to set the example (as you're currently the top guild that can raid this week).

However, given two other raid fiascoes that have already happened this week, it doesn't look like that'll be the case. It's disappointing.

[Ele]

I don't think anyone is calling you jerks. I think people were just hoping that with IB/TMO out for a week, that the rest of the guilds could show the server what it could be like if guilds worked together more and tried to co-operate.

If you guys feel that IB/TMO have been jerks about this, and other raid-related issues, then it's up to you to set the example (as you're currently the top guild that can raid this week).

However, given two other raid fiascoes that have already happened this week, it doesn't look like that'll be the case. It's disappointing.

[Loke]

bullshit

edit: disclaimer - I only read like 1 or 2 of the million pages here. If this shit got resolved later on, whatever. I still feel like it has been way too long since Skope and I have yelled at each other on the forums.

Skope, you've always tried to argue for shit getting handed to people not willing to put the work in. I don't even really play anymore, but was reading this and got flash backs to like 2 years ago. A rotation between the top guilds shouldn't mean that people not part of that rotation cannot kill the mob, it just SHOULD mean that those guilds will not compete with each other. If it is IB's turn and Divinity wants to roll up and contest it, you guys should be more than willing to. However, sitting in the background until a rotation is established and then demanding to be included is ridiculous. You want something for nothing, which is nothing new.

A rotation between 3 guilds is just that, a rotation between three guilds. If you aren't included in that rotation, don't abide by it's rules - simple as that. As the rotation is a freely entered into agreement, if the existing members do not want to allow you to join, that should be there choice. Forcing yourself into their internal guild agreements is ridiculous.

Now I'm going to go back to playing Tribes where I can Spinfusor people's faces off when they have what I want (e.g. the flag).

[RevengeofGio]

hehehe if you magically took IB/TMO/VD out of the picture... you'd just have people step into their place. Happens in every game.

[YendorLootmonkey]

However, given two other raid fiascoes that have already happened this week, it doesn't look like that'll be the case. It's disappointing.

Which are those? Other guilds have had first attempt on Trak, Naggy, Maestro, and Talendor that I'm aware of. I can't speak for Gore, Draco, or Inny since I wasn't there.

[maverixdamighty]

Can cross naggy/talendor off your list. Can't see how those would be considered fiascoes. You waited til the attempting guilds wiped before you engaged.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Can cross naggy/talendor off your list. Can't see how those would be considered fiascoes. You waited til the attempting guilds wiped before you engaged.

I take Trak back... I remember we had a first attempt, our kiter failed miserably, and while we were regrouping for a 2nd attempt, BDA unintentionally pulled Trak and trained themselves and us. Maestro, we mobilized from Sol B just to see a guild standing there staring at him, so we pulled. No idea why they hadn't engaged.

[maverixdamighty]

Ya I consider what happened with maestro to be in bad form, but it's not against the rules. This is just from what I've heard from players in both guilds.

[Wotsirb401]

I believe BDA had a shot @ Draco before VD engaged. I saw many naked BDA on WC spires. When I got to fear VD had taken down Draco. Inny spawned 15 minutes before the server was going down and no other guild had a shot at him

[maverixdamighty]

This is getting off topic anyways. This thread was about trying to get a rotation going so each capable guild could get atleast one cleric epic, but has become a list of what guild has screwed over what guild etc.

[Metallikus]

It is all of a sudden the PR thing to do for Stealin since his entire guild can't touch dragons, he's on some holy crusade to do good for the lower tier guilds (or maybe jsut for Ninik)...that all changes of course when he can get back to stealin dragons.

Where was his holy crusade when IB and TMO were rotating Ragefires? Why didn't he step in and get Ninik inserted in there somewhere? Why won't his guild agree to some sort of rotation?

VD is all for a rotation, always has been. Get your shit straight and make an agreement that stands for more than a week that you guys are suspended, we will honor it immediately even during the week we have the most uncontested mobilization for targets.

Hell, why not rotate CT while we are at it?

[Autotune]

It is all of a sudden the PR thing to do for Stealin since his entire guild can't touch dragons, he's on some holy crusade to do good for the lower tier guilds (or maybe jsut for Ninik)...that all changes of course when he can get back to stealin dragons.

Where was his holy crusade when IB and TMO were rotating Ragefires? Why didn't he step in and get Ninik inserted in there somewhere? Why won't his guild agree to some sort of rotation?

VD is all for a rotation, always has been. Get your shit straight and make an agreement that stands for more than a week that you guys are suspended, we will honor it immediately even during the week we have the most uncontested mobilization for targets.

Hell, why not rotate CT while we are at it?

Ninik agreed that those clerics spent a great deal of time sitting there. She backed off it willingly.

Now that the damn thing is fixed you retards tell Ninik to fuck off?

Yeah you got the right, the same right i have to do what i'm doing. The set plan was for a rotation to appear when ragefire was fixed, instead VD doesn't want to allow it while they have the upper hand. That's all.

Sadly, you didn't view all the cards on the table first.

[Bruman]

Which are those? Other guilds have had first attempt on Trak, Naggy, Maestro, and Talendor that I'm aware of. I can't speak for Gore, Draco, or Inny since I wasn't there.

Maestro and Draco. Neither were "against rules", but they weren't playing nicely either. Taken was leap-frogged at Maestro.

I believe BDA had a shot @ Draco before VD engaged. I saw many naked BDA on WC spires. When I got to fear VD had taken down Draco. Inny spawned 15 minutes before the server was going down and no other guild had a shot at him

BDA did not have a shot at Draco. IB was in the zone "training how to train", when Draco popped on them. IB notifies VD that Draco spawned, then starts camping/gating because of their raid suspension. BDA and Taken were the only guilds tracking in the zone. BDA zones in, only to find IB with their small train (like 6-10 mobs, BDA had cleared the zone earlier) along with Draco right at the fear portal. BDA wiped due to the train, and while IB rezzed us due to their unintentional wipe, VD killed Draco.

I do believe that it was all unintentional, but given the close relationship between IB and VD, you can imagine others don't believe so. It was horrible form regardless.

[Versus]

It is all of a sudden the PR thing to do for Stealin since his entire guild can't touch dragons, he's on some holy crusade to do good for the lower tier guilds (or maybe jsut for Ninik)...that all changes of course when he can get back to stealin dragons.

Where was his holy crusade when IB and TMO were rotating Ragefires? Why didn't he step in and get Ninik inserted in there somewhere? Why won't his guild agree to some sort of rotation?

VD is all for a rotation, always has been. Get your shit straight and make an agreement that stands for more than a week that you guys are suspended, we will honor it immediately even during the week we have the most uncontested mobilization for targets.

Hell, why not rotate CT while we are at it?

CT won't be rotated for the same reason Trak won't be rotated with you by choice...IB and VD are one guild. It would be idiotic to give a force that raids together for every single target outside of VP an independent slot in a rotation when we could just compete with you 50/50 like we do now.

(I speak for no one in TMO but myself)

[lilyanna]

i don't care what tag you wear, mine or otherwise, until ninik gets her epic, i'm going to personally make it as impossible as hell for anyone to do the turnin.

You've all been warned.

How are you going to do that and protect your VP dragons at the same time :p

[Splorf22]

I do have to kinda laugh at TMO/IB shutting everyone out of Ragefire for 5 weeks and then suddenly you are raid suspended and it's "oh poor ninik". Where was all this love and compassion a month ago when the thread was originally created? You could have said "we'll do the 5 clerics who spent the most time clicking air in the lair plus Ninik", but you didn't.

Anyway, I think this particular problem will go away pretty fast - my understanding with the new patch is that Ragefire will spawn about twice a week or maybe even more. So we'll get 8-10 more sprinklers this month and I'd be pretty surprised if one of them doesn't have Ninik's name on it.

I don't feel too bad for Taken. Maestro was up at least 10 minutes. So basically they just had 15 people AFK up there, and if this is enough to give you dibs on all raid mobs . . . lord help us. I do feel bad for BDA not getting Draco though. They had a nice head start with more than sufficient numbers. Trakanon we experimented with training the mobs away, failed pretty miserably, ended up fighting him right at the entrance to the lair, training BDA. As we rezzed up, BDA pulled Trak by accident training us. Finally we went in and did it the slow way successfully. I don't think there was any malice there, just some incompetence on both sides. Meanwhile TMO was busy rezzing/buffing/COH'ing BDA as much as possible of course.

[Autotune]

How are you going to do that and protect your VP dragons at the same time :p

I have a few friends left on the server, surprisingly lol.

I do have to kinda laugh at TMO/IB shutting everyone out of Ragefire for 5 weeks and then suddenly you are raid suspended and it's "oh poor ninik". Where was all this love and compassion a month ago when the thread was originally created? You could have said "we'll do the 5 clerics who spent the most time clicking air in the lair plus Ninik", but you didn't.

Anyway, I think this particular problem will go away pretty fast - my understanding with the new patch is that Ragefire will spawn about twice a week or maybe even more. So we'll get 8-10 more sprinklers this month and I'd be pretty surprised if one of them doesn't have Ninik's name on it.

I don't feel too bad for Taken. Maestro was up at least 10 minutes. So basically they just had 15 people AFK up there, and if this is enough to give you dibs on all raid mobs . . . lord help us. I do feel bad for BDA not getting Draco though. They had a nice head start with more than sufficient numbers.


Again, read that ninik agreed to it. If she had wanted a spot in it badly enough, i would have done the same thing now. However, she accepted that they spent a great deal of time clicking that air. The previous clerics stated that a new rotation would be agreed upon later when it was fixed.

It's fixed now and guess what, VD is trying to push everyone away that they have the power to while IB/TMO are suspended and can't act on it.

It's still not going to work.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Ninik agreed that those clerics spent a great deal of time sitting there. She backed off it willingly.

The set plan was for a rotation to appear when ragefire was fixed, instead VD doesn't want to allow it while they have the upper hand. That's all.

Come up with a rotation that's something other than "TMO/TMO/TMO/then actual rotation starts" and the rest of us will take it seriously.

The rest of this thread should be no one posting except a designated cleric rep from each Ragefire-capable guild, sorting out a rotation. Anything other than that is just noise/posturing.

[Ele]

I do have to kinda laugh at TMO/IB shutting everyone out of Ragefire for 5 weeks and then suddenly you are raid suspended and it's "oh poor ninik". Where was all this love and compassion a month ago when the thread was originally created? You could have said "we'll do the 5 clerics who spent the most time clicking air in the lair plus Ninik", but you didn't.

Anyway, I think this particular problem will go away pretty fast - my understanding with the new patch is that Ragefire will spawn about twice a week or maybe even more. So we'll get 8-10 more sprinklers this month and I'd be pretty surprised if one of them doesn't have Ninik's name on it.

I don't feel too bad for Taken. Maestro was up at least 10 minutes. So basically they just had 15 people AFK up there, and if this is enough to give you dibs on all raid mobs . . . lord help us. I do feel bad for BDA not getting Draco though. They had a nice head start with more than sufficient numbers.

EQ doesn't have a magical bubble that prevents other people from contesting stuff. I'm honestly surprised no one outside of IB/TMO came in to contest it.


Also it wasn't a TMO - IB guild based rotation, it was an agreement amongst the clerics with the most time at the camp, just so happens they were from IB/TMO. We randomed for the slots, which people now call a "rotation".

The OP was an attempt to demonstrate that it could be handled peacefully and to seek additional input from the rest of the community regarding how to go forward from here on out. The patch, thankfully, has been implemented so we should be seeing 2-6 ragefires per week instead of the previous 1 per 9 days. I would still like to see something worked out to prevent another FFA click fest.

[Autotune]

Come up with a rotation that's something other than "TMO/TMO/TMO/then actual rotation starts" and the rest of us will take it seriously.

The rest of this thread should be no one posting except a designated cleric rep from each Ragefire-capable guild, sorting out a rotation. Anything other than that is just noise/posturing.

go back, look at my posts...

And i don't care what you take seriously, no one is going to get an epic unless it's Ninik.

[Ele]

I do have to kinda laugh at TMO/IB shutting everyone out of Ragefire for 5 weeks and then suddenly you are raid suspended and it's "oh poor ninik". Where was all this love and compassion a month ago when the thread was originally created? You could have said "we'll do the 5 clerics who spent the most time clicking air in the lair plus Ninik", but you didn't.

Anyway, I think this particular problem will go away pretty fast - my understanding with the new patch is that Ragefire will spawn about twice a week or maybe even more. So we'll get 8-10 more sprinklers this month and I'd be pretty surprised if one of them doesn't have Ninik's name on it.

I don't feel too bad for Taken. Maestro was up at least 10 minutes. So basically they just had 15 people AFK up there, and if this is enough to give you dibs on all raid mobs . . . lord help us. I do feel bad for BDA not getting Draco though. They had a nice head start with more than sufficient numbers. Trakanon we experimented with training the mobs away, failed pretty miserably, ended up fighting him right at the entrance to the lair, training BDA. As we rezzed up, BDA pulled Trak by accident training us. Finally we went in and did it the slow way successfully. I don't think there was any malice there, just some incompetence on both sides. Meanwhile TMO was busy rezzing/buffing/COH'ing BDA as much as possible of course.

Check your facts because you are wrong.

[Metallikus]

Maestro and Draco. Neither were "against rules", but they weren't playing nicely either. Taken was leap-frogged at Maestro.



BDA did not have a shot at Draco. IB was in the zone "training how to train", when Draco popped on them. IB notifies VD that Draco spawned, then starts camping/gating because of their raid suspension. BDA and Taken were the only guilds tracking in the zone. BDA zones in, only to find IB with their small train (like 6-10 mobs, BDA had cleared the zone earlier) along with Draco right at the fear portal. BDA wiped due to the train, and while IB rezzed us due to their unintentional wipe, VD killed Draco.

I do believe that it was all unintentional, but given the close relationship between IB and VD, you can imagine others don't believe so. It was horrible form regardless.

I actuall feel bad for Taken. They watched Maestro pop, had 15 in zone, and did nothing for 15 minutes. We popped in a tracker saw it up, made the call to go up in case they wiped only to see them sitting AFk out of agro range. BDA also ran up at the same time as VD. VD engaged, end of story.

Draco, I have no idea why IB was kiting around mobs and accidentally got draco near fear portal. "Training excercise" obviously. BDA decided to zone in and fight draco, and kept pouring in. VD waited outside fear, did a normal WW break, and pulled Draco there after.

VD has acted honorably as we always do. We aren't training, being sneaky with FTE tactics, and have given the other guilds sufficient time to engage and wipe on most if not all targets (we deliberately reset our agro on Gore pull to allow BDA a chance to pull when it looked like there might be a FTE disagreement; Talendor was left up 1 and half hours before we engaged after Div/taken wipe; Naggy was up 45 min before we engaged after another Div/Taken wipe; ect).

[Splorf22]

EQ doesn't have a magical bubble that prevents other people from contesting stuff. I'm honestly surprised no one outside of IB/TMO came in to contest it.


Also it wasn't a TMO - IB guild based rotation, it was an agreement amongst the clerics with the most time at the camp, just so happens they were from IB/TMO. We randomed for the slots, which people now call a "rotation".

The OP was an attempt to demonstrate that it could be handled peacefully and to seek additional input from the rest of the community regarding how to go forward from here on out. The patch, thankfully, has been implemented so we should be seeing 2-6 ragefires per week instead of the previous 1 per 9 days. I would still like to see something worked out to prevent another FFA click fest.

Look I don't have a problem with how things turned out and I don't see how you got that from my post. As far as I'm concerned, if you put the time in you get the gear. If the whole server had gotten together and made sure Ninik got the first one, I think that would have been pretty awesome . . but we didn't, and that's OK too. I'm purely pointing out the hypocrisy of anyone in IB/TMO bitching about VD taking a Ragefire or two and not giving a spot to Ninik when they did the exact same thing for two months.

Anyway with 3 ragefires per week this problem will disappear fast. In a few months tops every cleric will have one.

[arsenalpow]

Maestro and Draco. Neither were "against rules", but they weren't playing nicely either. Taken was leap-frogged at Maestro.



BDA did not have a shot at Draco. IB was in the zone "training how to train", when Draco popped on them. IB notifies VD that Draco spawned, then starts camping/gating because of their raid suspension. BDA and Taken were the only guilds tracking in the zone. BDA zones in, only to find IB with their small train (like 6-10 mobs, BDA had cleared the zone earlier) along with Draco right at the fear portal. BDA wiped due to the train, and while IB rezzed us due to their unintentional wipe, VD killed Draco.

I do believe that it was all unintentional, but given the close relationship between IB and VD, you can imagine others don't believe so. It was horrible form regardless.

We cleared fear aside from 4 glare lords, and maybe a fetid or Samhain near boogey house.

We had 35+ ready for Draco within 3 minutes of him popping and our raid force zoned into IB training Draco to the fear portal. Intentional or unintentional, the GMs can sort that out. The fact remains that VD benefitted from IB's Draco train and we couldn't get an attempt in. It's frustrating to say the least.

[Metallikus]

The hilarious fact is that before IB/TMO was suspended, leadership was approached about the cleric rotation and the information gathered was that Zeelot was not willing to accept a rotation and we were all going to be in for a gigantic clusterfk clickfest. Then boom the hammer is brought down, they get suspensions and can't click for a week...now they want to insert Ninik during the time they cannot be douches about it.

[Autotune]

The hilarious fact is that before IB/TMO was suspended, leadership was approached about the cleric rotation and the information gathered was that Zeelot was not willing to accept a rotation and we were all going to be in for a gigantic clusterfk clickfest. Then boom the hammer is brought down, they get suspensions and can't click for a week...now they want to insert Ninik during the time they cannot be douches about it.

i don't care what you've heard or think.

There needs to be a rotation set up immediately or you risk me killing this vendor trigger when he spawns after each naggy. Killing the vendor version of Zordak (afaik) doesn't reset the zordak timer (aka 1 shot at cleric epic per naggy).

Either set up a rotation with Ninik at the beginning or kiss ur cleric epics all goodbye.

[arsenalpow]

Draco, I have no idea why IB was kiting around mobs and accidentally got draco near fear portal. "Training excercise" obviously. BDA decided to zone in and fight draco, and kept pouring in. VD waited outside fear, did a normal WW break, and pulled Draco there after.

VD has acted honorably as we always do. We aren't training, being sneaky with FTE tactics, and have given the other guilds sufficient time to engage and wipe on most if not all targets (we deliberately reset our agro on Gore pull to allow BDA a chance to pull when it looked like there might be a FTE disagreement; Talendor was left up 1 and half hours before we engaged after Div/taken wipe; Naggy was up 45 min before we engaged after another Div/Taken wipe; ect).

There was only 4 mobs up, IB claiming some sort of kite training is laughable at best and a violation of their raid ban at worst. A "WW break" is also kind of ridiculous since the zone was cleared.

I'm not insinuating that BDA had a right to Draco, it's a race, but to have VD benefit from an IB train is frustrating beyond words when we were first on the scene.

[Ele]

The hilarious fact is that before IB/TMO was suspended, leadership was approached about the cleric rotation and the information gathered was that Zeelot was not willing to accept a rotation and we were all going to be in for a gigantic clusterfk clickfest. Then boom the hammer is brought down, they get suspensions and can't click for a week...now they want to insert Ninik during the time they cannot be douches about it.

Who is they? It seems like a lot of people in this thread keep committing a fallacy of assigning individual's positions to entire guilds as the official guild positions.

[YendorLootmonkey]

We cleared fear aside from 4 glare lords, and maybe a fetid or Samhain near boogey house.

We had 35+ ready for Draco within 3 minutes of him popping and our raid force zoned into IB training Draco to the fear portal.

Who was the FD spotter in Fear for your guild who called for your raid force to zone into a train? Blame THAT guy, IMO.

[messiah_b]

Despawn all raid targets for 2 months.

[Metallikus]

i don't care what you've heard or think.

There needs to be a rotation set up immediately or you risk me killing this vendor trigger when he spawns after each naggy. Killing the vendor version of Zordak (afaik) doesn't reset the zordak timer (aka 1 shot at cleric epic per naggy).

Either set up a rotation with Ninik at the beginning or kiss ur cleric epics all goodbye.

Your intentions are to grief unless you get your way. I swear you violate every PNP rule. You train raids, you fear other groups mobs in an attempt to train them, grief players by killing vendors/epic quest mobs....where does it stop with you?

[Kassel]

Arsenal, I dont know when you cleared fear last but we killed at least 8 mobs on break in alone so i am sure there was more than 4 up. I am sure the situation must have sucked but it shoud be common policy to scout the fear portal prior to sending in your full crew.

[Kassel]

Why do you guys even read stealins posts? His claim to fame on this server is being the biggest liar (troll) on the forums.

[Autotune]

Your intentions are to grief unless you get your way. I swear you violate every PNP rule. You train raids, you fear other groups mobs in an attempt to train them, grief players by killing vendors/epic quest mobs....where does it stop with you?

you have two choices.

Allow ninik her spot and set up a rotation

Do nothing and continue to be dicks to her and in turn get dicked.

Btw, this is to everyone who thinks they are getting an epic before Ninik.

[messiah_b]

Arsenal, I dont know when you cleared fear last but we killed at least 8 mobs on break in alone so i am sure there was more than 4 up. I am sure the situation must have sucked but it shoud be common policy to scout the fear portal prior to sending in your full crew.

Since Draco is so often sitting on the portal?

[arsenalpow]

Who was the FD spotter in Fear for your guild who called for your raid force to zone into a train? Blame THAT guy, IMO.

Except fear was clear, why would we need a spotter??

[Autotune]

Why do you guys even read stealins posts? His claim to fame on this server is being the biggest liar (troll) on the forums.

if you think i'm joking/trolling, you're gravely mistaken.

[Metallikus]

you have two choices.

Allow ninik her spot and set up a rotation

Do nothing and continue to be dicks to her and in turn get dicked.

How are we supposed to set up a fair rotation without all capable parties involved? Doesnt TMO and IB want in the rotation or are u guys going to sit out for a while?

Oh, you only want us to rotate her in on your week off so that your guild can continue to be asshats to the rest of the server when you get back?

How about come up with a long lasting rotation now? We rotate as per your terms stated earlier and follow thru accordingly. I'm sure there as worthy clerics out there as ninik is worthy of an epic. We want what is fair, TMO and IB have a head start on cleric epics, how bout you guys put yourselves last on the rotation? That seem about right?

[zahlia]

This is getting off topic anyways. This thread ... has become a list of what guild has screwed over what guild etc.

This, this, and more this. ^


My dearest wish in all my time playing this game has been to help others enjoy it as much as I have. The avatar of NiNiK has helped me do that. No, in real life I am not six years old; I do not subsist on a diet of milk and cookies; I am not bursting with joy 99% of the time. Playing NiNiK has helped me to keep sight of the part of myself that truly loves my "Blue Sparkler" and "Gnome Tinkered Toy" more than any other item I do or could ever possess in the game. (Yes, this includes the epic.)

I don't expect everyone to understand this point of view. When I played on live I was in a hardcore, cutthroat guild. NiNiK was never even my main character; she was an alt I created on a whim who ended up showing me a part of EQ I hadn't seen before. (Some of my own guildmates, who knew me only as Zahlia, whom I didn't roleplay at all, found the NiNiK persona just as baffling as many of the people here seem to do. The numerous jabs on these forums about how "NiNiKish" is impossible to understand, or hurts the reader's brain, or reveals a worrisome dearth of IQ on my part -- none of these are new to me, I assure you :p.)

I suppose what I am trying to say is that I’ve played this game on a bunch of characters, in several guilds, in two decades (!) and with a changing perspective on what this game and its community is and could be. I adore the people who play on this server. With very few exceptions, the people I’ve met in this community are helpful, funny, interesting and fun. Of course I love the people in Divinity; I am truly lucky to have found a guild of players whose ideas of how the game can best be enjoyed match so closely to my own at this point, but some of my favorite people are also in IB, TMO, and VD, not only in the other small guilds.

TL;DR? I don’t blame you, so let me make this simple: Regardless of how despicably p99ers may behave as guilds (Amelinda’s post this past weekend came as a shock to me, and I’m far more cynical than NiNiK) as individuals I like and respect everyone I've met. Please stop attacking each other. Since that is probably too much to hope for, at least stop tearing into each other in my name. It is the very last thing I want, for myself and for all of you.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Except fear was clear, why would we need a spotter??

Would a spotter have prevented your entire raid from zoning into whatever IB had there?

You don't know what's on the other side of that portal. For all you know, CT popped and re-popped the zone. Send in a scout. Always.

[Autotune]

How are we supposed to set up a fair rotation without all capable parties involved? Doesnt TMO and IB want in the rotation or are u guys going to sit out for a while?

Oh, you only want us to rotate her in on your week off so that your guild can continue to be asshats to the rest of the server when you get back?

How about come up with a long lasting rotation now? We rotate as per your terms stated earlier and follow thru accordingly. I'm sure there as worthy clerics out there as ninik is worthy of an epic. We want what is fair, TMO and IB have a head start on cleric epics, how bout you guys put yourselves last on the rotation? That seem about right?

should do this, each guild (TMO, IB, VD, Taken, BDA, DIV) get together and select a cleric representative.

These 6 then decide on other guilds that should be considered and then get their representative.

These reps come together and decide the order of the rotation.

Fair in all sense of the word.

Rules could be simple

You wipe, miss or can't get a kill force in the time frame, you forfeit ur turn to the rotation and then the next guild in line.

all guilds are allowed outside assistance.

Ur stupid cleric epic problem is now solved.

Tech, VD could be considered to have already gone in the rotation, put Div - ninik next, and go from there.

It's not hard.

1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 for all guilds involved.

[Aata]

Tech, VD could be considered to have already gone in the rotation, put Div - ninik next, and go from there.

It's not hard.

1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 for all guilds involved.

[Metallikus]

Tech, VD could be considered to have already gone in the rotation, put Div - ninik next, and go from there.

It's not hard.

1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 for all guilds involved.

Now get everyone to agree.

[falkun]

Now take that to your guild and GL stealin. Sell it to them, because your guild are the only ones not buying it. You don't have to sell that idea to VD.

[arsenalpow]

Would a spotter have prevented your entire raid from zoning into whatever IB had there?

You don't know what's on the other side of that portal. For all you know, CT popped and re-popped the zone. Send in a scout. Always.

I'm done trying to explain the situation. We left the glare lord arch past the graveyard up and a few mobs near boogey house up. There should have been no reason for any sort of spotter.

Bottom line is VD benefitted from a raid banned guild training Draco on our entering raid force. I don't understand how you can defend this with a straight face.

[ElanoraBryght]

We can't talk about who is technically where in the rotation, since there isn't a rotation yet. There could have been one. Look at your leadership for why there isn't.

Before the raid suspensions :
[Fri Feb 17 17:12:27 2012] You told Zeelot, 'i was just talking to xeli, i dont know if your paths crossed before she logged'
[Fri Feb 17 17:12:36 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'yeah he just started talking to me'
[Fri Feb 17 17:12:41 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'About the epics right?'
[Fri Feb 17 17:12:43 2012] You told Zeelot, 'yes'
[Fri Feb 17 17:14:29 2012] You told Zeelot, 'the way it had been left with elethia, someone from each guild would get together and /random to set the rotation order'
[Fri Feb 17 17:16:05 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'I told him I'd be down to put VD into a rotation, but I would like to get 2 more for tmo if possible before that starts. IB arranged an uneven agreement and I'd like to get it evened out before putting you guys in'

After the raid suspensions were handed out.
[Mon Feb 20 01:54:37 2012] You told Zeelot, 're: Ragefire, is it ou or Xeli we need to talk to'
[Mon Feb 20 02:01:07 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'xeli'

Hopefully the leaders will all be on to talk tonight.

[maverixdamighty]

You have an opportunity to show your willingness to rotate the mob this week without TMO/IB's leaders to be involved...

[Aata]

When you say 'leaders' hope you're not just talking about 3 guilds?

[ElanoraBryght]

When you say 'leaders' hope you're not just talking about 3 guilds?

Dumesh was setting up a meeting of all 6 guilds that are currently raiding / show they are likely able to kill Naggy and Ragefire.

[Autotune]

me and relapsee gonna hammer this out.

You guys have no fear.

[falkun]

You have an opportunity to show your willingness to rotate the mob this week without TMO/IB's leaders to be involved...

If we don't involve them their members will go back to clicking air like they did prior to the original agreement (after their suspensions are up).

When you say 'leaders' hope you're not just talking about 3 guilds?

Please find a post where coldblooded ever mentions excluding guilds outside tmo/ib/vd. now do the same for tmo/ib leadership. Please let me know what you find.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I'm done trying to explain the situation. We left the glare lord arch past the graveyard up and a few mobs near boogey house up. There should have been no reason for any sort of spotter.

Bottom line is VD benefitted from a raid banned guild training Draco on our entering raid force. I don't understand how you can defend this with a straight face.

Because we had no idea what IB was doing in the zone nor did we care. We had no idea what was on the other side of the portal. As a raid leader, I am not going to tell my force to cram through the portal until I have a set of eyes on the other side telling me when its safe. I don't even care if we just got done clearing two hours ago. It's not worth the potential wasted time. If you can't understand that, I hope there was a lesson taken from that and incorporated into your future entrances into Fear, especially when there's a raid target on the line. I'm not trying to be an ass, but never assume the portal is clear.

[JoeBob]

Hopefully the leaders will all be on to talk tonight.

Lets just hope that you aren't "too tired," to talk to them tonight when they reach out to you.

[Aata]

It was just a question, thanks for the reply! :p

[Metallikus]

me and relapsee gonna hammer this out.

You guys have no fear.

A necro from TMO and an epic'd cleric from IB are going to set things up for you non epic'd clerics.

They've had a lot more time to think about you guys whie they are suspended for the behaviors of sharing and caring about the good of the server.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Tech, VD could be considered to have already gone in the rotation, put Div - ninik next, and go from there.

It's not hard.

1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 for all guilds involved.

[Lazortag]

If we don't involve them their members will go back to clicking air like they did prior to the original agreement (after their suspensions are up).


The problem is that, in the interim, this is exactly what you're forcing every other guild to do. The consequence is that guilds whose clerics are unwilling to engage in an asinine clickfest will be bullied out of getting their epic, while those who do take part in the clickfest end up wasting insane amounts of time.

Not hating or anything, I don't think VD are bad people at all, I just think this isn't every well thought out.

[Autotune]

atm, what me and relapsee have is exactly what yendor posted.

I don't see anything wrong with it, other than some guilds will wonder why they aren't first or whatever. which doesn't matter in a 1-1-1-1-1-1 situation.


We are looking for loop holes.

[Gmal]

Hi.

It is an epic quest.

All of you whinging bitches of clerics and the door knob fellating spastic friends of yours do not and will not get an epic, because it is an epic.

Put in epic commitment, make epic friendships, have epic guildmates or friends, have an epic ability to play long hours and have an epic persona that precludes you from being one of the dull masses lets you earn an epic.

This is not a 'right', its a privilege. Its not a right of passage, the right of passage is months or years of establishing yourself as someone worthy of having 20 people stop everything at 3am to kill a mob in a game for you. Dont have those kind of friends and connections, then you dont get an epic. You get a tainted battleworn morningstar.

The fiery avenger style particle quests were not put in so everyone gets one, they are not class defining, as this stage in the game they are for the best of the best and some scrubs that scrape by. Not for the bleeding heart and ignorant.

Motec,

Although I agree with you a point here, I am also one to understand that not everyone has the ability to put as many hours into this game as we do. Thats understandable as people do have lives and as much as I play this game and am involved in the high end raiding I get that. People have responsibilities and take those much more serious over a 12 year old game. With that said does that make them any less worthy of achieving something nice for themselves in a game? Nope!

I am all for equality with the population and being able to achieve their own personal goals in the game. There is also, as Motec mentions above, a certain amount of commitment that you as a player have to put into achieving that goal in order for you to succeed. Does that mean you need to put in many many hours and put your RL aside in order to achieve that? Depends on how bad you want it.

[Velion]

atm, what me and relapsee have is exactly what yendor posted.

I don't see anything wrong with it, other than some guilds will wonder why they aren't first or whatever. which doesn't matter in a 1-1-1-1-1-1 situation.


We are looking for loop holes.

I really hope you actually get the backing from your guild to do this or you're going to have some serious PR work to do on this one. It should now be more than obvious that EVERYONE is for a Ragefire rotation like that and with a rotation set up I don't think anyone would have a problem with Ninik taking the next spot. If your guild leadership still continues to screw this up for everyone involved then you have no one to blame but yourselves.

[Splorf22]

I'm done trying to explain the situation. We left the glare lord arch past the graveyard up and a few mobs near boogey house up. There should have been no reason for any sort of spotter.

Bottom line is VD benefitted from a raid banned guild training Draco on our entering raid force. I don't understand how you can defend this with a straight face.

Look the reality is that shit happens. Hell, the reason Eabon has his epic is that IB trained VD in hate on that Maestro :D Half the problem on this server is that people get stupid/careless/thoughtless and then the other side assumes it was deliberate and goes all Hatfield/McCoy - the other half of the problem is TMO (just kidding, <3 you guys).

I think it's too bad you guys didn't get a crack at Draco that time, and if I could go back and GM delete those other trash mobs I would. As far as I know from listening to VD guild chat during the event there was no collusion, shit just happened (although I have no idea why the hell IB was running around in there with a train, its hardly like they were trying to play denial for us with Draco having a large window). In the end we got a Bone Razor and a Totem of Widdershins so from a loot perspective at least you guys didn't lose out.

[falkun]

The problem is that, in the interim, this is exactly what you're forcing every other guild to do. The consequence is that guilds whose clerics are unwilling to engage in an asinine clickfest will be bullied out of getting their epic, while those who do take part in the clickfest end up wasting insane amounts of time.

Not hating or anything, I don't think VD are bad people at all, I just think this isn't every well thought out.

This happened because the rotation as implemented is complete/on hold due to the raid suspension of all members of the original rotation before it was updated to include guilds outside of the raid suspension. Cold tried to work on the rotation agreement prior to the raid suspension and she was flatly refused by one member of the rotation. I cannot speak to the efforts of other guilds with respect to the rotation, but I would assume other guild leaders were also pushing to get their members added to the rotation. But that effort did not result in a rotation. Since the rotation is not happening atm, we are back to the chaos. Do not be niave enough to think that VD clerics will waste a ragefire. Get your guild leaders to force the rotation talks. VD isn't stopping you from joining the rotation, but we will work within established agreements (or the lack thereof in this case).

[Autotune]

Rotation Order:

Div, BDA, Taken, VD, TMO, IB

this is on a 1-1-1-1-1-1

Rules:

1) 30mins to engage for the kill
2) can be assisted if you can get the help within the time allowed
3) If you can't engage in 30mins and kill your Ragefire, you forfeit your turn to the next guild on the rotation.
4) If you fail twice in a row, you will be removed from the rotation.

How to get on the rotation:

To get on the rotation, a guild will have to apply to be considered. Then a guild will allow them to attempt to kill a Ragefire. This will be done by a guild willing currently on the rotation spawning the Ragefire for the guild. The applying guild will then a chance to kill the Ragefire to prove they deserve the spot on the rotation. ALL LOOT WILL GO TO THE GUILD THAT SPAWNED RAGEFIRE. If the guild fails, they must wait 2 weeks to reapply for consideration. The applying guild cannot receive outside help to be added and will be bound by all other rules described above. (any attempt to ninjaloot drops will remove the guild from any consideration to be added permanently)

This rotation will allow the guilds with the most completed cleric epics to keep the most, while everyone also obtains a cleric epic at the same rate.

Guilds will not be required to kill a naggy.


Any problems with this?

[Metallikus]

Rotation Order:

Div, BDA, Taken, VD, TMO, IB

this is on a 1-1-1-1-1-1

Rules:

1) 30mins to engage for the kill
2) can be assisted if you can get the help within the time allowed
3) If you can't engage in 30mins and kill your Ragefire, you forfeit your turn to the next guild on the rotation.
4) If you fail twice in a row, you will be removed from the rotation.

How to get on the rotation:

To get on the rotation, a guild will have to apply to be considered. Then a guild will allow them to attempt to kill a Ragefire. This will be done by a guild willing currently on the rotation spawning the Ragefire for the guild. The applying guild will then a chance to kill the Ragefire to prove they deserve the spot on the rotation. ALL LOOT WILL GO TO THE GUILD THAT SPAWNED RAGEFIRE. If the guild fails, they must wait 2 weeks to reapply for consideration. The applying guild cannot receive outside help to be added and will be bound by all other rules described above. (any attempt to ninjaloot drops will remove the guild from any consideration to be added permanently)

This rotation will allow the guilds with the most completed cleric epics to keep the most, while everyone also obtains a cleric epic at the same rate.

Guilds will not be required to kill a naggy.


Any problems with this?

I like it. As far as multiple vendor spawns during windows, where are people going to be directed to post when a ragefire spawns/is killed as in to notify the next on rotation?

[Bruman]

Any problems with this?

My only problem is that it's a sensible, clear, straight-forward, easy to monitor rotation, that would stop drama problems and calm down poop-socking and RnF posts.

Aka, way too sane for this server full of children.

But it definitely has my (worthless) vote.

[Autotune]

I like it. As far as multiple vendor spawns during windows, where are people going to be directed to post when a ragefire spawns/is killed as in to notify the next on rotation?

I'd like for all guilds to communicate on kill times. However, I suspect guilds that follow another guild while Ragefire is in window will keep track of them as well to keep up with the time limit.

AKA, BDA's turn to kill ragefire, i would encourage Taken to have a tracker to help watch for BDA's spawn.

And so forth.

[ownrage]

How long to engage until their slot is forfeit?

[Zapatos]

I really hope you're not trolling stealin. It looks good.

Just need the 6 main guild leaders to sign the stamp of approval asap, with NO PRECONDITIONS. no "just a few more for guild X to balance it out" or else it will never start.

And then all the GMs return to put on a big event to celebrate the server coming together on something!

[maverixdamighty]

Rules:

1) 30mins to engage for the kill
2) can be assisted if you can get the help within the time allowed
3) If you can't engage in 30mins and kill your Ragefire, you forfeit your turn to the next guild on the rotation.
4) If you fail twice in a row, you will be removed from the rotation.

[falkun]

How to get on the rotation:

To get on the rotation, a guild will have to apply to be considered. Then a guild will allow them to attempt to kill a Ragefire. This will be done by a guild willing currently on the rotation spawning the Ragefire for the guild. The applying guild will then a chance to kill the Ragefire to prove they deserve the spot on the rotation. ALL LOOT WILL GO TO THE GUILD THAT SPAWNED RAGEFIRE. If the guild fails, they must wait 2 weeks to reapply for consideration. The applying guild cannot receive outside help to be added and will be bound by all other rules described above. (any attempt to ninjaloot drops will remove the guild from any consideration to be added permanently)

Any problems with this?

One point of clarification: will the established guild who permits the test guild an attempt spawn the test ragefire and then the test guild must kill it or will the test guild spawn and then kill the test ragefire? Basically, does the established guild get that ragefire loot and the test guild only gets added to the rotation or does the test guild get added to the rotation and immediate loot? I do not feel any cleric should be forced to forfeit their pearl for a test ragefire (within the 30min stipulation).

Also, clarify where the test guild is added to the rotation should they succeed. I would suggest: the new guild will be added to the rotation immediately prior the the guild that permitted them the chance to join, starting on the next cycle assuming they succeed.

[Metallikus]

One point of clarification: will the established guild who permits the test guild an attempt spawn the test ragefire and then the test guild must kill it or will the test guild spawn and then kill the test ragefire? Basically, does the established guild get that ragefire loot and the test guild only gets added to the rotation or does the test guild get added to the rotation and immediate loot? I do not feel any cleric should be forced to forfeit their pearl for a test ragefire (within the 30min stipulation).

Also, clarify where the test guild is added to the rotation should they succeed. I would suggest: the new guild will be added to the rotation immediately prior the the guild that permitted them the chance to join, starting on the next cycle assuming they succeed.

"I would suggest: the new guild will be added to the rotation immediately prior the the guild that permitted them the chance to join, starting on the next cycle assuming they succeed"

I don't like this because it discourages allowing a guild a chance to get in by forfeiting your turn on the rotation.

[Autotune]

One point of clarification: will the established guild who permits the test guild an attempt spawn the test ragefire and then the test guild must kill it or will the test guild spawn and then kill the test ragefire? Basically, does the established guild get that ragefire loot and the test guild only gets added to the rotation or does the test guild get added to the rotation and immediate loot? I do not feel any cleric should be forced to forfeit their pearl for a test ragefire (within the 30min stipulation).

Also, clarify where the test guild is added to the rotation should they succeed. I would suggest: the new guild will be added to the rotation immediately prior the the guild that permitted them the chance to join, starting on the next cycle assuming they succeed.

The current guild on rotation spawns ragefire for the guild applying.

The guild on the rotation gets the loot, the applying guild gets added to the rotation. They will be added to the end. I'll leave it up to a rotation decision on who allows a guild their shot. Then the rotation guild and the applying guild can track together. The applying guild should not be allowed to choose which guild btw. This will make it as random as possible for them to best test their ability.

[Craigmandu]

I don't like this because it discourages allowing a guild a chance to get in by forfeiting your turn on the rotation.

Needing "sponsorship" is the problem. As I would expect that people wouldn't "sponsor" any other guilds unless all of their clerics were already epic to ensure that all of theirs got it quicker.

If you come up with a way for people to publicly declare they are capable....that should throw them at the back of the rotation....and allow them to take their shot, with the next in line on hot standby or in attendance at the time in case they don't really have the capability.....

[Autotune]

Rules:

1) 30mins to engage for the kill
2) can be assisted if you can get the help within the time allowed
3) If you can't engage in 30mins and kill your Ragefire, you forfeit your turn to the next guild on the rotation.
4) If you fail twice in a row, you will be removed from the rotation.

yeah, 30mins to engage to kill the dragon form ragefire. Aka, 30mins from time of vendor/trigger spawn to the time of engage on the dragon form.

This is to keep guilds from stalling by triggering and then kiting.

[Lazortag]

Occupy Ragefire:

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/itsnotrightnotright/EQ000515.jpg

[Autotune]

Needing "sponsorship" is the problem. As I would expect that people wouldn't "sponsor" any other guilds unless all of their clerics were already epic to ensure that all of theirs got it quicker.

If you come up with a way for people to publicly declare they are capable....that should throw them at the back of the rotation....and allow them to take their shot, with the next in line on hot standby or in attendance at the time in case they don't really have the capability.....

i'd like to think that not all guilds on this rotation are that greedy.

It will be left to a majority vote.
Not a single guild sponsoring another guild.

[falkun]

"I would suggest: the new guild will be added to the rotation immediately prior the the guild that permitted them the chance to join, starting on the next cycle assuming they succeed"

I don't like this because it discourages allowing a guild a chance to get in by forfeiting your turn on the rotation.

According to stealin, the established guild would still get the loot from the test ragefire, so you would not lose any ragefires. If you put them at the end of the list, then ib could reform 90% of their guild as new_guild_01, get the next ragefire, gift that to new_guild_02, etc. And div would never get a new epic. Putting the new guild in line with the rotation prevents the cycle from stopping until it has run through another iteration. And you can't put new guild after the established guild because then guilds would use that to push their opponents back. Hurting yourself is the only way to prevent a guild from harming other guilds.

I'm not picking on IB due to reforming, they are just at the end of the list.

[Kassel]

just do 1-1-1-1-1-1-X

Where any new guild would be get a try in its own X slot at the end of the cycle. If they sucseed they join the rotation and it moves to 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-X

The guild that is trying to break in must have their own pearl and wait for the X spot in the rotation, if they kill the target, they get the spoils.

[Craigmandu]

i'd like to think that not all guilds on this rotation are that greedy.

It will be left to a majority vote.
Not a single guild sponsoring another guild.

You see how it could be difficult to "get in" on that vote though yes????

Either way, any organized system is better than clickfest.

[Extunarian]

just do 1-1-1-1-1-1-X

Where any new guild would be get a try in its own X slot at the end of the cycle. If they sucseed they join the rotation and it moves to 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-X

The guild that is trying to break in must have their own pearl and wait for the X spot in the rotation, if they kill the target, they get the spoils.

^

[Lazortag]

just do 1-1-1-1-1-1-X

Where any new guild would be get a try in its own X slot at the end of the cycle. If they sucseed they join the rotation and it moves to 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-X

The guild that is trying to break in must have their own pearl and wait for the X spot in the rotation, if they kill the target, they get the spoils.

This is confusing. I like Stealin's idea better.

[Extunarian]

This is confusing. I like Stealin's idea better.

I don't find it confusing at all. Designated time at the end of every rotation cycle for another guild to try to join. Plus the guild attempting wouldn't have to forfeit their epic piece to the guild on rotation that allowed them to try.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Rotation Order:

Div, BDA, Taken, VD, TMO, IB

this is on a 1-1-1-1-1-1

Rules:

1) 30mins to engage for the kill
2) can be assisted if you can get the help within the time allowed
3) If you can't engage in 30mins and kill your Ragefire, you forfeit your turn to the next guild on the rotation.
4) If you fail twice in a row, you will be removed from the rotation.

How to get on the rotation:

To get on the rotation, a guild will have to apply to be considered. Then a guild will allow them to attempt to kill a Ragefire. This will be done by a guild willing currently on the rotation spawning the Ragefire for the guild. The applying guild will then a chance to kill the Ragefire to prove they deserve the spot on the rotation. ALL LOOT WILL GO TO THE GUILD THAT SPAWNED RAGEFIRE. If the guild fails, they must wait 2 weeks to reapply for consideration. The applying guild cannot receive outside help to be added and will be bound by all other rules described above. (any attempt to ninjaloot drops will remove the guild from any consideration to be added permanently)

This rotation will allow the guilds with the most completed cleric epics to keep the most, while everyone also obtains a cleric epic at the same rate.

Guilds will not be required to kill a naggy.


Any problems with this?

Thanks for putting this out there.

I hate to be the first guild leader to come along and say "Yes, but..."

However...

Yes, 30 sounds great and all as long as the spawn times are between 2am and 5pm on a workday. It seems like all that has to happen for the rotation to be abused is for effort or random chance to shift the Ragefire spawn times such that BDA, Taken, and Div don't have enough people online to claim their spot in the rotation, with only 30 minutes, I see guilds that have a 24 hour presence claiming a ton of Ragefires while potentially managing the respawn timers to lock other member of the rotation out.

I propose changing the forfeiture to the first instance of 10pm eastern time after Ragefire spawns or 1 hour, whichever is longer.

If people can agree on that, consider Divinity signed up.

[Gmal]

Rotation Order:

Div, BDA, Taken, VD, TMO, IB

this is on a 1-1-1-1-1-1

Rules:

1) 30mins to engage for the kill
2) can be assisted if you can get the help within the time allowed
3) If you can't engage in 30mins and kill your Ragefire, you forfeit your turn to the next guild on the rotation.
4) If you fail twice in a row, you will be removed from the rotation.

How to get on the rotation:

To get on the rotation, a guild will have to apply to be considered. Then a guild will allow them to attempt to kill a Ragefire. This will be done by a guild willing currently on the rotation spawning the Ragefire for the guild. The applying guild will then a chance to kill the Ragefire to prove they deserve the spot on the rotation. ALL LOOT WILL GO TO THE GUILD THAT SPAWNED RAGEFIRE. If the guild fails, they must wait 2 weeks to reapply for consideration. The applying guild cannot receive outside help to be added and will be bound by all other rules described above. (any attempt to ninjaloot drops will remove the guild from any consideration to be added permanently)

This rotation will allow the guilds with the most completed cleric epics to keep the most, while everyone also obtains a cleric epic at the same rate.

Guilds will not be required to kill a naggy.


Any problems with this?

Stealin,

Id like to see the Time to engage bumped to 1 hour for those smaller guilds that arnt as epic at mobilization.

and this: The applying guild cannot receive outside help to be added and will be bound by all other rules described above.

I know there are some smaller guilds out there that require assistance to form this type of a raid. So having that clause in there would make it pretty tough for them to pull this off.

Im not a cleric but I would like to see those items have some more attention tailored towards some of the smaller guilds to make this a bit more doable for them.

my 2 cents.

BTW great work on this stealin. Very impressed brotha.

[falkun]

I see guilds that have a 24 hour presence claiming a ton of Ragefires while potentially managing the respawn timers to lock other member of the rotation out.

You have less ability to manipulate timers with a half hour window than you do with 1hr window that contains a time-zone specific caveat. You are imposing a caveat that by definition manages respawn timer due to geographic location. Why are you excluding the euros? Give everyone a fair shot at getting a shitty spawn time, not just the euro players.

If you want a 1hr window, I can understand that and go with it (not that I have a vote), but I would not advise an arbitrary time zone caveat.

[falkun]

Stealin,

Id like to see the Time to engage bumped to 1 hour for those smaller guilds that arnt as epic at mobilization.

and this:

I know there are some smaller guilds out there that require assistance to form this type of a raid. So having that clause in there would make it pretty tough for them to pull this off.

Im not a cleric but I would like to see those items have some more attention tailored towards some of the smaller guilds to make this a bit more doable for them.

my 2 cents.

Give test guilds the same standards as established guilds: you are allowed assistance as long as you stay within the time frame. This would allow smaller guilds the same opportunities as established guilds, no bias between those who already have stars and those who do not (dr. Seuss reference).

[Flunklesnarkin]

just do 1-1-1-1-1-1-X

Where any new guild would be get a try in its own X slot at the end of the cycle. If they sucseed they join the rotation and it moves to 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-X

The guild that is trying to break in must have their own pearl and wait for the X spot in the rotation, if they kill the target, they get the spoils.

It's not confusing as some people say lol


its just written in a way that you may not understand


he is basically saying that any new guild that wants to join the rotation goes to the end of the line.


Then the joining guild gets a shot before the list starts over with the first guild.


Better than any other system i've seen mentioned for letting a guild into the rotation.

[Glitterati]

Thanks for putting this out there.

I hate to be the first guild leader to come along and say "Yes, but..."

However...

Yes, 30 sounds great and all as long as the spawn times are between 2am and 5pm on a workday. It seems like all that has to happen for the rotation to be abused is for effort or random chance to shift the Ragefire spawn times such that BDA, Taken, and Div don't have enough people online to claim their spot in the rotation, with only 30 minutes, I see guilds that have a 24 hour presence claiming a ton of Ragefires while potentially managing the respawn timers to lock other member of the rotation out.

I propose changing the forfeiture to the first instance of 10pm eastern time after Ragefire spawns or 1 hour, whichever is longer.

If people can agree on that, consider Divinity signed up.

Only cause I just woke up =)

Dumesh has a good point, 30 minutes is too short. I also like whoever said new guilds entering into the rotation just be put onto the end of whatever the original rotation order is. Once this gets rolling and we're two, three months into this and it's going smoothly, it won't matter who was first, it'll move in an infinite loop with manaless rezzes and peace for everyone.

[Aata]

Would always be up to help my friends in Divinity and BDA if they had limited numbers on to do Rage, and I'm sure others will too

[Glitterati]

Would always be up to help my friends in Divinity and BDA if they had limited numbers on to do Rage, and I'm sure others will too

As most of our guild would. If any guild would like help on their Ragefire in the rotation, Taken will come support you.

[falkun]

Only cause I just woke up =)

Dumesh has a good point, 30 minutes is too short. I also like whoever said new guilds entering into the rotation just be put onto the end of whatever the original rotation order is. Once this gets rolling and we're two, three months into this and it's going smoothly, it won't matter who was first, it'll move in an infinite loop with manaless rezzes and peace for everyone.

Still waiting for a guild to abuse this by changing names all the time and just appending themselves to the end of the list. My idea adresses this. It also does not allow any new guild to interfere with the current iteration, only the next, being fair to the guilds still waiting patiently in line for their turn in that iteration.

[Autotune]

I don't find it confusing at all. Designated time at the end of every rotation cycle for another guild to try to join. Plus the guild attempting wouldn't have to forfeit their epic piece to the guild on rotation that allowed them to try.
The problem with this, is you effectively push back another guild for no other reason but for another to attempt. At the same time, if the applying guild fails their ragefire, they are left with the delima of losing their loot to another guild. To be fair to both the guilds on the rotation and the applying guild, it's best to do it the way i mentioned imo. Unless you can think of another way the applying guild doesn't forfeit their epic turnin and the guilds on the rotation don't get pushed back.


Thanks for putting this out there.

I hate to be the first guild leader to come along and say "Yes, but..."

However...

Yes, 30 sounds great and all as long as the spawn times are between 2am and 5pm on a workday. It seems like all that has to happen for the rotation to be abused is for effort or random chance to shift the Ragefire spawn times such that BDA, Taken, and Div don't have enough people online to claim their spot in the rotation, with only 30 minutes, I see guilds that have a 24 hour presence claiming a ton of Ragefires while potentially managing the respawn timers to lock other member of the rotation out.

I propose changing the forfeiture to the first instance of 10pm eastern time after Ragefire spawns or 1 hour, whichever is longer.

If people can agree on that, consider Divinity signed up.

I'm going to leave this up to you guys all now. I laid ground work.

I've attempted to get VD to agree, but seems they've decided to petition for rule changes.

[Autotune]

Still waiting for a guild to abuse this by changing names all the time and just appending themselves to the end of the list. My idea adresses this. It also does not allow any new guild to interfere with the current iteration, only the next, being fair to the guilds still waiting patiently in line for their turn in that iteration.

you can't abuse it, there is a majority vote for a reason.

[Velion]

I'm going to leave this up to you guys all now. I laid ground work.

I've attempted to get VD to agree, but seems they've decided to petition for rule changes.

Seriously, wtf are you even talking about? I don't see any actual guild leadership signing off on this except for Taken (with a few suggestions) and you're going to try to stir up some shit with VD? Even your own guild leader has had nothing to say about this and seeing as your reputation mainly consists of being a forum troll, I doubt anyone takes your word at face value.

[Flunklesnarkin]

A list strikes the right balances of fairness to stronger guilds and weaker guilds.


no need to make it more complicated lol


new guild wants in on rotation they get their shot... if they wipe... guilds hanging out can random for it or something.


Either way established guild will get an extra ragefire if weaker guild wipes and get done faster.

[Autotune]

Seriously, wtf are you even talking about? I don't see any actual guild leadership signing off on this except for Taken (with a few suggestions) and you're going to try to stir up some shit with VD? Even your own guild leader has had nothing to say about this and seeing as your reputation mainly consists of being a forum troll, I doubt anyone takes your word at face value.

aye, your guild can only agree if my guild agrees.

Has to start somewhere.

I commend taken and div for giving it a shot. I put it out there and i am sure the majority of TMO members would make it go thru (especially the clerics, which are the ones who matter)

Leaving it up to guild leaders means it's not going anywhere.

The first rotation was done with members and no officers/leaders and it went perfectly. Your guild leaders are holding you back.

[falkun]

Rotation Order:

Div, BDA, Taken, VD, TMO, IB

this is on a 1-1-1-1-1-1

Rules:

1) 30mins to engage for the kill
2) can be assisted if you can get the help within the time allowed
3) If you can't engage in 30mins and kill your Ragefire, you forfeit your turn to the next guild on the rotation.
4) If you fail twice in a row, you will be removed from the rotation.

How to get on the rotation:

To get on the rotation, a guild will have to apply to be considered. Then a guild will allow them to attempt to kill a Ragefire. This will be done by a guild willing currently on the rotation spawning the Ragefire for the guild. The applying guild will then a chance to kill the Ragefire to prove they deserve the spot on the rotation. ALL LOOT WILL GO TO THE GUILD THAT SPAWNED RAGEFIRE. If the guild fails, they must wait 2 weeks to reapply for consideration. The applying guild cannot receive outside help to be added and will be bound by all other rules described above. (any attempt to ninjaloot drops will remove the guild from any consideration to be added permanently)

This rotation will allow the guilds with the most completed cleric epics to keep the most, while everyone also obtains a cleric epic at the same rate.

Guilds will not be required to kill a naggy.


Any problems with this?

you can't abuse it, there is a majority vote for a reason.

Where does it state majority vote? I see a guild applies for a spot on the rotation, then a guild (any guild) allows them to attempt.

I'm going to leave this up to you guys all now. I laid ground work.

I've attempted to get VD to agree, but seems they've decided to petition for rule changes.

Way to try to spin my words. You must be referring to this post:
You have less ability to manipulate timers with a half hour window than you do with 1hr window that contains a time-zone specific caveat. You are imposing a caveat that by definition manages respawn timer due to geographic location. Why are you excluding the euros? Give everyone a fair shot at getting a shitty spawn time, not just the euro players.

If you want a 1hr window, I can understand that and go with it (not that I have a vote), but I would not advise an arbitrary time zone caveat.

In it I state I do not have a vote. I have also advocated for smaller guilds more than your proposed set of rules, see below:
Give test guilds the same standards as established guilds: you are allowed assistance as long as you stay within the time frame. This would allow smaller guilds the same opportunities as established guilds, no bias between those who already have stars and those who do not (dr. Seuss reference).

[Velion]

aye, your guild can only agree if my guild agrees.

Has to start somewhere.

I commend taken and div for giving it a shot. I put it out there and i am sure the majority of TMO members would make it go thru (especially the clerics, which are the ones who matter)

Leaving it up to guild leaders means it's not going anywhere.

The first rotation was done with members and no officers/leaders and it went perfectly. Your guild leaders are holding you back.

There has been one guild leader constantly holding this back... I'll give you two guesses who it has been.

[falkun]

Your guild leaders are holding you back.

That's funny coming from a tmo member. (Can't link cold's quotes, so click the link yourself)

We can't talk about who is technically where in the rotation, since there isn't a rotation yet. There could have been one. Look at your leadership for why there isn't.

Before the raid suspensions :


After the raid suspensions were handed out.


Hopefully the leaders will all be on to talk tonight.

[Splorf22]

+1 for the original Stealin proposal. It's the exact guild order I would have proposed as well, and probably for the same reasons.

Stealin has a reasonable way of adding guilds, but I don't think it's really necessary - if the leaders can't agree on a procedure there, just agree on 3-4 rotations (6-8 weeks I think) under the current system. By then everyone will have enough that it won't be such a huge issue.

Dumesh, this agreement is a huge win for Divinity/BDA/Taken getting the same number of slots as VD/IB/TMO. If you leave Ragefire up for 24 hours, everyone gets less. Aata has the right idea - just get some help for those AM spawns.

[Autotune]

your guild leader

i'm saying yours as well as mine, however, in the end it is up to the clerics willing to sock the lair and compete clicking air.


If clerics don't agree to sock the lair for air, the odds of completing a cleric epic goes to????


Again, you are looking at this as a guild vs guild matter

I am looking at this for clerics.



And to the majority vote part, it was supposed to be in, i've been up for nearly 30hrs straight now. It was the reason i wanted relapsee to post this instead of me, as well as the fact he is a cleric.

[Velion]

Without guilds as a whole signing off on this there is no accountability. The whole reason alot of us in VD are skeptical of this whole thing is because it's hard not to view this as you taking advantage of the Ninik situation as another way to try to cockblock VD.

Your guild has been the one screwing over any hope for a rotation and now you have been trying to manipulate the rest of the server into trying to make VD the bad guys when we haven't gotten a single cleric epic until yesterday because we allowed you and IB to have your first 5 agreement uncontested.

Let me make this perfectly clear. Without your guild leadership coming out and endorsing this rotation, we just plain don't trust you.

[Xeliso]

I am willing to speak for TMO and a server wide rotation is a good idea and I support the rotation. You all should take into consideration with a fixed Ragefire we will be getting cleric epics finished left and right.

[Autotune]

Without guilds as a whole signing off on this there is no accountability. The whole reason alot of us in VD are skeptical of this whole thing is because it's hard not to view this as you taking advantage of the Ninik situation as another way to try to cockblock VD.

Your guild has been the one screwing over any hope for a rotation and now you have been trying to manipulate the rest of the server into trying to make VD the bad guys when we haven't gotten a single cleric epic until yesterday because we allowed you and IB to have your first 5 agreement uncontested.

Let me make this perfectly clear. Without your guild leadership coming out and endorsing this rotation, we just plain don't trust you.

That's all up to you guys, rules were changed and i can no longer change anything or do anything.

Basically, either rotate or don't. Now if my guild chooses to not stick to it there is nothing i can do. Congrats.

I am not a cleric nor am I an officer/guild leader.

It's of little importance to me now. Just remember that it's clerics who have to do the quest, not the guild. Refusing to accept a rotation based on another guild's lack of response is silly.

Either you want a rotation or you don't.

[Gmal]

Without guilds as a whole signing off on this there is no accountability. The whole reason alot of us in VD are skeptical of this whole thing is because it's hard not to view this as you taking advantage of the Ninik situation as another way to try to cockblock VD.

Your guild has been the one screwing over any hope for a rotation and now you have been trying to manipulate the rest of the server into trying to make VD the bad guys when we haven't gotten a single cleric epic until yesterday because we allowed you and IB to have your first 5 agreement uncontested.

Let me make this perfectly clear. Without your guild leadership coming out and endorsing this rotation, we just plain don't trust you.

So not to derail this or anything. Velion I am not sure who you are in game, but I consider myself pretty damn good dude both in and out of the game. Im guilded with stealin and I can tell you that even though he maybe a troll on the board, the guys heart is completely in the right place on pretty much all matters. So even though this may not mean a damn thing to you. I can tell you that there isnt to much not to trust with Stealin. And I would be the first one to tell you as would TMO leadership if he didnt have the right intentions with his efforts here.
Take it for whatever is worth to you.

[Flunklesnarkin]

That's all up to you guys, rules were changed and i can no longer change anything or do anything.

Basically, either rotate or don't. Now if my guild chooses to not stick to it there is nothing i can do. Congrats.

I am not a cleric nor am I an officer/guild leader.

It's of little importance to me now. Just remember that it's clerics who have to do the quest, not the guild. Refusing to accept a rotation based on another guild's lack of response is silly.

Either you want a rotation or you don't.


Its kinda like doing business with a communist country..


they may let you develop a business and make some profits like agreed upon


or they may just take your shit and nationalize it.

[falkun]

Either you want a rotation or you don't.

We want a rotation. Every vd member respected the rotation when we weren't even on it with the belief that we would eventually be worked into the rotation. Then the rotation was done/suspended and zeelot blocked the rotation renegotiation (see colds quotes). Then you stated that you will not respect any rotation that does not begin with divinity (ninik), see quote below.

i don't care what tag you wear, mine or otherwise, until ninik gets her epic, i'm going to personally make it as impossible as hell for anyone to do the turnin.

You've all been warned.

So what is it, do you want a rotation or not? You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. VD has shown their respect for the rotation through our actions in game. Can you say the same?

[Autotune]

Its kinda like doing business with a communist country..


they may let you develop a business and make some profits like agreed upon


or they may just take your shit and nationalize it.

yeah.

Except VD had nothing to lose and only respect to be gained.

Like I said, I am sure TMO clerics would be happy to not have to worry about clicking air 30-90hrs a week.

The final part of this rotation was going to be me pushing for Amelinda to make it server official and have it warrant suspensions for trying to break it intentionally. Seeing how new rules pop up quite frequently now, I'd imagine it wouldn't be that hard to enforce if guilds agreed to be bound by it.

[Autotune]

We want a rotation. Every vd member respected the rotation when we weren't even on it with the belief that we would eventually be worked into the rotation. Then the rotation was done/suspended and zeelot blocked the rotation renegotiation (see colds quotes). Then you stated that you will not respect any rotation that does not begin with divinity (ninik), see quote below.



So what is it, do you want a rotation or not? You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. VD has shown their respect for the rotation through our actions in game. Can you say the same?

you quote that yea. notice how i put div first? what guild is ninik in?

I planned to make it so NO guild could complete anymore epics until they stopped being greedy bastards. (this includes my guild)

Keep posting about zeelot and our guild leader, as i said before i matters little if our clerics aren't willing to click air for hours on end.

[Metallikus]

Seeing how new rules pop up quite frequently now

You keep saying new rules. You must be mad bro. Did someone finally tell you about the non-griefing rule?

Aside from that follow-up, I thought you had a good set up for a base of rotation that you and relapsee came up with. As for the guilds not signing on for the exact wording, I think they can use that in their meeting that Coldblooded and Dumesh alluded to earlier that they are having tonight to hash out a rotation agreement that everyone can write off on.

I also think its kind of ridiculous of Divinity to take the stance of we deserve an equal part in the rotation, but only if we can kill mobs during a certain part fo the day. You have been thrown a huge bone by being considered and you want to alter the agreement to better suit your personal play times?

[maverixdamighty]

extending time from 30m to 1hour that big of a deal? really? lol.

[Xeliso]

Make a new clean thread and apply the rotation. No one will be 100% happy, but it alleviate a stupid sock in lair and the health of our clerics on the server will be maintained.

If you all think you can survive a 72 hour sock, correct me if I'm wrong. But Stealin is going in the right step here with Ragefire.

[Metallikus]

extending time from 30m to 1hour that big of a deal? really? lol.

I have absolutely no problem with 1 hour engage.

Waiting 18 hours or so until someone's primetime is the ridiculous part.

[Autotune]

You keep saying new rules. You must be mad bro. Did someone finally tell you about the non-griefing rule?

Aside from that follow-up, I thought you had a good set up for a base of rotation that you and relapsee came up with. As for the guilds not signing on for the exact wording, I think they can use that in their meeting that Coldblooded and Dumesh alluded to earlier that they are having tonight to hash out a rotation agreement that everyone can write off on.

I also think its kind of ridiculous of Divinity to take the stance of we deserve an equal part in the rotation, but only if we can kill mobs during a certain part fo the day. You have been thrown a huge bone by being considered and you want to alter the agreement to better suit your personal play times?

any npc in classic was fair game to be killed. There is no special rule here about killing any NPC (aside from ones that were deemed broken and hazardous the the server if killed).

So yep, new rule.

And there were supposed to be a meeting before, that never happened. I'd wager if one happens now, then cool. Something is happening, but looks like stall tactics to me.

[bylbob]

Can you TMO trolls stop lieing to keep screwing the competition again? Go back to RnF please, nobody is stupid enough to not see behind all the false promises you are doing since you got raid banned (well deserved ban for all the the unanswered petitions about your guild that went on for months, actually one week was a really really weak sentence).

It is like the ban Perun thread, the only reason he ninjalooted was because they were sick of all the crap you guys pulled for months with zero repercussion, when you keep messing up with peoples and the authority do nothing, you tend to see peoples using the same weapons their agressor used and do justice themself, it is never a good thing but when nothing is done... .

Drop down your high horse, because the reality is if TMO wasn't around, lower guilds that can't raid outside planes clears will allready be in rotations for some mobs and the GMs will not be overworked like they are now. VD/IB raiding together is a good proof of that.

[Flunklesnarkin]

seeing how long it takes ragefire to spawn.. i dont think another 30 mins is going to kill a poopsocker.

[Lazortag]

I have absolutely no problem with 1 hour engage.

Waiting 18 hours or so until someone's primetime is the ridiculous part.

Yeah I don't think that's what Dumesh was suggesting.

[briare]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2dbmbyb.jpg

[falkun]

Don't think anyone is arguing 30min vs 1hr. We are worried about moving it to EST prime time, but I would think any euro/asian/african/australian player would find issue with that. And I'm a EST player with a full time job, i'd love every rotation engage timer to be on EST, but that's not fair and I refuse to advocate for it. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Like stealin, I am not a cleric so ultimately this agreement doesn't apply to me, but I would hope clerics realize that "fair" should be "fair worldwide".

[Xatava]

Can you TMO trolls stop lieing to keep screwing the competition again? Go back to RnF please, nobody is stupid enough to not see behind all the false promises you are doing since you got raid banned (well deserved ban for all the the unanswered petitions about your guild that went on for months, actually one week was a really really weak sentence).

It is like the ban Perun thread, the only reason he ninjalooted was because they were sick of all the crap you guys pulled for months with zero repercussion, when you keep messing up with peoples and the authority do nothing, you tend to see peoples using the same weapons their agressor used and do justice themself, it is never a good thing but when nothing is done... .

Drop down your high horse, because the reality is if TMO wasn't around, lower guilds that can't raid outside planes clears will allready be in rotations for some mobs and the GMs will not be overworked like they are now. VD/IB raiding together is a good proof of that.

lol wut?

[Fazlazen]

Can you TMO trolls stop lieing to keep screwing the competition again? Go back to RnF please, nobody is stupid enough to not see behind all the false promises you are doing since you got raid banned (well deserved ban for all the the unanswered petitions about your guild that went on for months, actually one week was a really really weak sentence).

It is like the ban Perun thread, the only reason he ninjalooted was because they were sick of all the crap you guys pulled for months with zero repercussion, when you keep messing up with peoples and the authority do nothing, you tend to see peoples using the same weapons their agressor used and do justice themself, it is never a good thing but when nothing is done... .

Drop down your high horse, because the reality is if TMO wasn't around, lower guilds that can't raid outside planes clears will allready be in rotations for some mobs and the GMs will not be overworked like they are now. VD/IB raiding together is a good proof of that.

Rolf

Someone, please, put him back in his cage.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Don't think anyone is arguing 30min vs 1hr. We are worried about moving it to EST prime time, but I would think any euro/asian/african/australian player would find issue with that. And I'm a EST player with a full time job, i'd love every rotation engage timer to be on EST, but that's not fair and I refuse to advocate for it. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Like stealin, I am not a cleric so ultimately this agreement doesn't apply to me, but I would hope clerics realize that "fair" should be "fair worldwide".

yep this is an issue lol.



make him 8 hour spawn.. give one pop to each corner of the world ;p

[Raavak]

...Rolf

Someone, please, put him back in his cage.

Just give him his nuk, he'll go back to sleep.

[Ele]

Can you TMO trolls stop lieing to keep screwing the competition again? Go back to RnF please, nobody is stupid enough to not see behind all the false promises you are doing since you got raid banned (well deserved ban for all the the unanswered petitions about your guild that went on for months, actually one week was a really really weak sentence).

It is like the ban Perun thread, the only reason he ninjalooted was because they were sick of all the crap you guys pulled for months with zero repercussion, when you keep messing up with peoples and the authority do nothing, you tend to see peoples using the same weapons their agressor used and do justice themself, it is never a good thing but when nothing is done... .

Drop down your high horse, because the reality is if TMO wasn't around, lower guilds that can't raid outside planes clears will allready be in rotations for some mobs and the GMs will not be overworked like they are now. VD/IB raiding together is a good proof of that.

If you honestly believe what you just said, then there nothing anyone can say to change your mind.

[zahlia]

I am wants thanks Stealin' lots an' lots an' lots fer puttin' alla hard work into comin' up wit' idea fer rotation. I am more dan 100% supports dis idea. (As I tellded him, gnomes gots more dan 100%. Dun tells Tam'ny. Her is math professor in RL an' gnomish maths is drives her CRAZY.) I very happy to helps anybody, in any guild, to fights dem Ragefire! (Unless dem is mean ta gnomes, acourse.) Hopefully alla guildleaders can gets 'gether tonight an' works dis out!

HOORAY FER PATCH DAT GIVED US MORE RAGEFIRES! Soonsoon hopefully alla clerics (an' alla squishded folks) will be happyhappy!

[DOPE]

you are the master of your own destiny.

Hahahahahah.

[Kender]

I am wants thanks Stealin' lots an' lots an' lots fer puttin' alla hard work into comin' up wit' idea fer rotation. I am more dan 100% supports dis idea. (As I tellded him, gnomes gots more dan 100%. Dun tells Tam'ny. Her is math professor in RL an' gnomish maths is drives her CRAZY.) I very happy to helps anybody, in any guild, to fights dem Ragefire! (Unless dem is mean ta gnomes, acourse.) Hopefully alla guildleaders can gets 'gether tonight an' works dis out!

HOORAY FER PATCH DAT GIVED US MORE RAGEFIRES! Soonsoon hopefully alla clerics (an' alla squishded folks) will be happyhappy!

what's the accent you're trying to portray here? scottish ogre?

[falkun]

what's the accent you're trying to portray here? scottish ogre?

Think more giddy 4 year old, at least that's how I read it.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Think more giddy 4 year old, at least that's how I read it.

Ninik is 6.

[Motec]

Hi.

You're all talking shit.

Rotation please. As per stealins post.

30 Minutes to engage or forefeit. This is an epic quest, it requires epic devotion, help and mobilisation from epic friends who keep FG's clear, their chars logged at ragefire etc.

There is no reason a 60 can not run from zone in, to ragerfire and root/camp, lull, mez etc 2 LDC's on the way at any stage when ragefire is in window. If YOU dont keep FG's clear, YOU risk forfeit ragefire if you guild can not mobilise there.

A raid force must be present upon handing in your pearl. Kiting, BP'ing or stalling on human ragefire is not acceptable. When zordak spawns, you have 30 minutes to get your 3-20 people there, cast 3 buffs, hand in pearl, and kill both ragefires.

Lets make it happen.

[Tricky Beverage]

Amen to everything that Motec just posted.

As a cleric of VD who is affected by this rotation, let me start by saying that I have two major concerns with the proposed rotation. I think I speak to the concerns of most of the VD players responding in this thread. These concerns are particularly important to me because I am coming up on 40 hours of waiting for Ragefire to spawn (I've been here the longest post-patch of any cleric other than Emmdano). As you can see from my time stamp, it's currently 6am EST (and I've been here all night).

However, before I address my concerns about the rotation, I suggest that we all set aside our differences for a moment and band together on something that will affect us ALL to a much greater extent over the long haul than the rotation particulars. It probably is not common knowledge yet (since only VD has really been here in force post-patch), but the Ragefire spawn cycle is definitely NOT working as it should be.

According to all of the classic evidence in Elethia's Ragefire spawn cycle petition thread (for which ALL of us clerics on the server owe Ele a debt of gratitude), Ragefire should pop 0-72 hours after Naggy dies and then every 23 hours thereafter until the next Naggy spawn. This spawn pattern seemed to receive overwhelming support for being classic.

Kanras replied to the thread saying only that the Ragefire spawn would be fixed, 0-3 days post-Naggy, multiple spawns possible per Naggy, pending update. Although Kanras never explicitly said it, everyone in the thread apparently believed this response to mean the during the next patch (2/20) the spawn cycle would be implemented according to the classic evidence presented by Ele and supported (at least anecdotally) by all the clerics in the thread who played classic. Specifically, everyone assumed 0-72 hours after Naggy dies, Ragefire can spawn and then every 23 hours thereafter until the next Naggy spawn.

Then when Naggy and Ragefire both spawned in one afternoon immediately following the patch (2/20), everyone assumed Ragefire's spawn cycle had been fixed to the classic system and that he would be popping roughly once a day for the next week until Naggy respawned (+/- variance). However, as someone who has been sitting at this camp for 30+ hours since the last Ragefire pop, I can say with certainty that Ragefire is NOT spawning as intended on the 23 hour schedule. Whether Kanras did modify the Ragefire spawn to ALWAYS be 0-72 hours or not is unclear. For all we can tell, Kanras might have forgotten the Ragefire fix altogether on this patch (unlikely, but we won't know for sure unless/until Ragefire takes over 72 hours to spawn).

To reiterate, Ragefire is currently (post-patch) taking much longer to spawn than is classic according to the evidence in Ele's bug petition thread. Perhaps there is a chance for multiple Ragefires to spawn after Naggy is killed, but we are not getting ~1/day after the initial Ragefire variance that we all believed we would. I will try to submit a bug report on this later today (unless I end up asleep at the wheel from this camp).

Now, on to my two concerns regarding the rotation:

1. The window to kill Ragefire should be 30 minutes or one wipe, as originally suggested. The official triggered mob policy is 20 minutes. Any guild that is going to insist on a spot in the rotation should be willing and able to get a raid force together and stomp Ragefire within this time frame, just like the top 3 guilds would do.

2. More importantly, any guild taking its turn in the rotation should do so without the assistance of other guilds. If your guild is unable to kill Ragefire without another guild helping, then you and the other guild should be sharing one rotation slot, not two.

This is much the same reason that TMO has refused to add VD to the Trak rotation, even though VD is obviously capable of killing Trak without IB's assistance. Likewise, TMO is (understandably) unwilling to have VD in VP unless we're (a) able to break in on our own or (b) sharing IB's half of the rotation, which seems unlikely at present.

CT won't be rotated for the same reason Trak won't be rotated with you by choice...IB and VD are one guild. It would be idiotic to give a force that raids together for every single target outside of VP an independent slot in a rotation when we could just compete with you 50/50 like we do now.


I'm not suggesting -- although I think some might -- that either IB or TMO has bad intentions in supporting this 6-guild rotation. But it is very easy for either of these guilds to support an extremely inclusive rotation during the week when only VD can raid and it doesn't affect either IB or TMO. Even if their intentions are entirely pure, it will be very difficult for these two powerhouse guilds to continuously share a 6-guild rotation with guilds that don't have the numbers to kill Ragefire without teaming up together. It would be both very convenient and very predictable for one of these super raid guilds to insist on a revised (and more restrictive) rotation in 2-4 weeks time, or decide to click air after all, despite insisting this week that VD is evil and greedy if we don't like the rotation agreement.

There is one important caveat to this second concern/suggestion: NiNik has received almost universal support from everyone in every guild for deserving her epic. I don't know NiNik personally, but she does seem to be a class act. So if all the guilds perhaps wanted to pitch in and help with NiNik's epic, that seems perfectly acceptable as a one-time exception to the "one-guild-one-slot" rule.

I feel like I'm being a bully toward the smaller/more casual raid guilds. And truthfully, I hate that. Still, the fact is that if your guild can't raid and kill Ragefire by itself in a timely fashion, then you should reconsider insisting on a rotation spot. If you can only kill Ragefire as a cooperative effort with another guild, then you and that other guild should share a rotation slot.

TL;DR VERSION --

1. We all need to work together to get the Ragefire spawn fixed to the more favorable classic spawn cycle. This is something that will tremendously benefit us all.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=564582#post56458 (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=564582#post564582)

2. The Ragefire rotation should be limited to a 30 minute window (more than the standard triggered mob limit) per kill/wipe. Likewise, rotation guilds should not receive assistance from other rotation guilds (or should be willing to share a rotation slot with the cooperating guild). If a guild does not have the players to handle either of these requirements, perhaps the guild should reconsider insisting on a rotation slot.

[Corrodith]

even though VD is obviously capable of killing Trak without IB's assistance

[Sat Feb 18 19:45:12 2012] There are 50 players in Old Sebilis.

[Sat Feb 18 19:46:43 2012] Ciandra says, 'LEEEROY JENKINS'
[Sat Feb 18 19:46:43 2012] Myuharin regains concentration and continues casting.
[Sat Feb 18 19:46:45 2012] Trakanon beams a smile at Myuharin

[Sat Feb 18 19:47:55 2012] There are 35 players in Old Sebilis.

[Sat Feb 18 19:48:13 2012] There are 30 players in Old Sebilis.

[Sat Feb 18 19:48:27 2012] There are 12 players in Old Sebilis.


Sorry couldn't help myself!

[maverixdamighty]

Stopped reading after your statement of entitlement from sitting at a mob waiting on it to spawn. A rotation has been agreed upon to my knowledge, so suggestions are moot at this point.

[arsenalpow]

I think everyone should just wait until the formal announcement is made concerning the rotation. I think everyone involved was happy with how it turned out.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Rotation has been agreed to in principle.

As soon as Rogean gives me access to Raid Guild Forum I'll post the details in there for final sign off. After that, I'll post something publicly.

Thanks to Aata, Coldblooded, Sanluen, Nirron, and Xeliso for coming together last night to get this hammered out.

[Tricky Beverage]

Stopped reading after your statement of entitlement from sitting at a mob waiting on it to spawn. A rotation has been agreed upon to my knowledge, so suggestions are moot at this point.

Although I consider being willing to sit at a fairly miserable camp for hours on end to be dedication, I can also understand why you interpret it as entitlement. I can't blame you for being upset by my post. Judging by the defensive tone of your reply, you did read at least enough of my post -- beyond me sitting waiting for the mob to spawn -- to follow the general thrust.

Admittedly, I posted here for entirely selfish reasons. I think that the rotation as proposed (and perhaps as agreed to) has problems. That being said, I don't at all fault any of the smaller guilds for wanting to be included in the rotation. Divinity, BDA, Taken, I honestly like you guys. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would certainly be trying to get a spot in the rotation. Likewise, if you were in my shoes, I would expect any of you to oppose my guild being included in a rotation to a degree you thought inappropriate.

I'm not a fan of the rotation, but I don't harbor any hard feelings toward you all over it. To the contrary, I am happy for the clerics in Divinity, BDA, and Taken. Hopefully you'll get some love spread around, even if I don't like how the rotation works out. Good luck, you purple band of racially diverse fantasy creatures (and humans).

I do ask, however, that you not overlook the most important part of my post. Right now Ragefire is NOT spawning as we all believed he would be. Right now the camp is still pretty frustrating. If Ele's Ragefire info was indeed classic (I wouldn't know personally), we all need to join together in petitioning/requesting the 23 hour Ragefire spawn implementation (after the initial 72 hour spawn variance). This change benefits all of us.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=564582#post564582

[eadric]

I don't think any guild should have trouble fielding a force than can take down Ragefire in 30 mins. He's just a Nagafen clone, which means extremely easy for lvl 60s. So if a guild can't get it done in the allotted time, they pass up their turn. Fair enough.

[Ele]

Although I consider being willing to sit at a fairly miserable camp for hours on end to be dedication, I can also understand why you interpret it as entitlement. I can't blame you for being upset by my post. Judging by the defensive tone of your reply, you did read at least enough of my post -- beyond me sitting waiting for the mob to spawn -- to follow the general thrust.

Admittedly, I posted here for entirely selfish reasons. I think that the rotation as proposed (and perhaps as agreed to) has problems. That being said, I don't at all fault any of the smaller guilds for wanting to be included in the rotation. Divinity, BDA, Taken, I honestly like you guys. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would certainly be trying to get a spot in the rotation. Likewise, if you were in my shoes, I would expect any of you to oppose my guild being included in a rotation to a degree you thought inappropriate.

I'm not a fan of the rotation, but I don't harbor any hard feelings toward you all over it. To the contrary, I am happy for the clerics in Divinity, BDA, and Taken. Hopefully you'll get some love spread around, even if I don't like how the rotation works out. Good luck, you purple band of racially diverse fantasy creatures (and humans).

I do ask, however, that you not overlook the most important part of my post. Right now Ragefire is NOT spawning as we all believed he would be. Right now the camp is still pretty frustrating. If Ele's Ragefire info was indeed classic (I wouldn't know personally), we all need to join together in petitioning/requesting the 23 hour Ragefire spawn implementation (after the initial 72 hour spawn variance). This change benefits all of us.


In response to your comment about the 23 hour timer on Ragefire. I would agree with you that being a 23 hour timer on successive Ragefires would be a great boon to the server in terms of speeding this whole process up, the evidence I presented however doesn't fully draw that conclusion. There are quite a few self reported timers of 22-24 hours for successive Ragefires, but there are also several that indicate it could be longer, including one that stated 65 hours has passed. Honestly after waiting 7 weeks from the initial bug report and 6 Ragefires and an unhealthy amount of time in SolB, I'm glad that it was finally patched to what is now (assuming it is 0-72 after Nagafen and 0-72 after each Ragefire) which easily doubles, if not triples/quadruples, the number of Ragefires per week.

I would suggest bumping my initial bug report with additional details and a specific request to have the successive timer reviewed.

The first 5 Ragefires (prepatch) spawned between 48 -72 hours after Nagafen died, we had assumed at that point the timer was fixed between 48-72 hours after Nagafen's death. The sixth one (mine) spawned at 36.5 hours and the seventh at 31 hours, which of course threw out our theory. At this point, I can only assume it is 0-72 after Nagafen, and 0-72 after each Ragefire.

EDIT: just saw your new bug report ^_^

[Serin]

2. More importantly, any guild taking its turn in the rotation should do so without the assistance of other guilds. If your guild is unable to kill Ragefire without another guild helping, then you and the other guild should be sharing one rotation slot, not two.

This is much the same reason that TMO has refused to add VD to the Trak rotation, even though VD is obviously capable of killing Trak without IB's assistance. Likewise, TMO is (understandably) unwilling to have VD in VP unless we're (a) able to break in on our own or (b) sharing IB's half of the rotation, which seems unlikely at present.


This is honestly the one part of your sentiment that I don't quite understand.

Perhaps a different perspective would help:: Say you're sitting on a desert island and there's a coconut tree that grows one coconut every day. (stay with me) You have 5 other people there with you. You agree to a rotation on who gets the coconuts each day in which order. Person A gets their coconut and can't quite crack it themselves to get the coconut milk/meat. Person A enlists person B to help with the promise that person A would assist person B with his coconut.. How would you, person C, respond to this situation?

Would you A. Rip the coconut out of person A's hands and say "Sorry, you can't open it with no assistance, so if you want person B to help you with yours you both have to share"

or B. Realize that it doesn't really matter how many people it takes to open the coconut, you're still 3rd in the rotation and will get yours eventually..

or C. Assist person A, and B with their coconuts, since you're all stranded in the same predicament, and would rather not have person A or person B rip your coconut out of your hands if you were in the same situation..?


Just an end statement.. Remember that we're all here for the exact same reason.. To experience classic content with classic level gear. We all have the same goal, which is to have Fun. If you start begrudging people their fun just because you feel that they don't deserve <insert random stuff here>.. It makes the game horrible for everyone..

[YendorLootmonkey]

This is honestly the one part of your sentiment that I don't quite understand.

Perhaps a different perspective would help:: Say you're sitting on a desert island and there's a coconut tree that grows one coconut every day. (stay with me) You have 5 other people there with you. You agree to a rotation on who gets the coconuts each day in which order. Person A gets their coconut and can't quite crack it themselves to get the coconut milk/meat. Person A enlists person B to help with the promise that person A would assist person B with his coconut.. How would you, person C, respond to this situation?

Would you A. Rip the coconut out of person A's hands and say "Sorry, you can't open it with no assistance, so if you want person B to help you with yours you both have to share"

or B. Realize that it doesn't really matter how many people it takes to open the coconut, you're still 3rd in the rotation and will get yours eventually..

or C. Assist person A, and B with their coconuts, since you're all stranded in the same predicament, and would rather not have person A or person B rip your coconut out of your hands if you were in the same situation?

He's bringing it up because of the double-standard Stealin is applying here so he can appear to be the Cleric Savior of All Guilds. From one face, he has maintained VD and IB raid together, so they have to share a mob already under rotation. From the other face, he's suggesting that no longer matters for this rotation. Two entirely different encounters, but inconsistent reasoning is being applied. Just another jab to those in VD really, but we're very pleased something has finally been worked out.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Who cares if one guild helps another..


get the kill done faster = more rage fire between nagafen's




not like it affects your guilds turn if one guild helps another anyways heh.

[Autotune]

Who cares if one guild helps another..


get the kill done faster = more rage fire between nagafen's




not like it affects your guilds turn if one guild helps another anyways heh.

greedy fucks will always be greedy fucks. PS

The case was made by Relapsee about guilds sharing their ragefire rotation. I said if that is the case

IB and VD had to share their rotation on ragefire. They raid together after all.

IB would not go for that, they won't even let you into VP with them for rots.

That is why I put all guilds on there and allowed them to get assistance if they could do it in the time frame.

Otherwise the rotation would be something like

TMO > Taken/div/bda > IB/VD (not in that order, but with the guilds that raid together rotating together)

btw, taken/div/bda can still fall out individually from the rotation. This means they have to reapply tho, and if they are all grouped together? What are the odds that VD/IB would let them all back on?

IMO, mine and relapsee's way was about as fair as it was going to get. Y'all *****s can hate all you want tho, 0ducks

[Metallikus]

greedy fucks will always be greedy fucks.

That's the TMO montra. Will TMO agree to any other rotations? VS, CT, Trak, Inny?

[Lazortag]

That's the TMO montra. Will TMO agree to any other rotations? VS, CT, Trak, Inny?

Did it occur to you that there might be a subtle difference between Ragefire and other mobs, notably that competing for the former involves clicking away at nothing for 3 days straight (and possibly losing your pearl)? At least there's *some* mobilization required for the other mobs you mentioned, in the case of Ragefire it's a contest of whoever can click the fastest. That isn't meritocratic, that's just random, and not agreeing to a rotation over that is beyond idiotic.

[Autotune]

Did it occur to you that there might be a subtle difference between Ragefire and other mobs, notably that competing for the former involves clicking away at nothing for 3 days straight (and possibly losing your pearl)? At least there's *some* mobilization required for the other mobs you mentioned, in the case of Ragefire it's a contest of whoever can click the fastest. That isn't meritocratic, that's just random, and not agreeing to a rotation over that is beyond idiotic.

you'll have to excuse him, he has become blinded. I've tried to make that case, as other clerics have as well, but some can only see what they want.

[Serin]

He's bringing it up because of the double-standard Stealin is applying here so he can appear to be the Cleric Savior of All Guilds. From one face, he has maintained VD and IB raid together, so they have to share a mob already under rotation. From the other face, he's suggesting that no longer matters for this rotation. Two entirely different encounters, but inconsistent reasoning is being applied. Just another jab to those in VD really, but we're very pleased something has finally been worked out.

Ah, that makes a bit more sense now.. Thank you =) I mirror your sentiment about everything being worked out. :D

[funhorroryes]

why not just give everyone the damn item is waiting 72 hours to do the handin really super necessary cut people some slack here

[Szeth]

This is honestly the one part of your sentiment that I don't quite understand.

Perhaps a different perspective would help:: Say you're sitting on a desert island and there's a coconut tree that grows one coconut every day. (stay with me) You have 5 other people there with you. You agree to a rotation on who gets the coconuts each day in which order. Person A gets their coconut and can't quite crack it themselves to get the coconut milk/meat. Person A enlists person B to help with the promise that person A would assist person B with his coconut.. How would you, person C, respond to this situation?

Would you A. Rip the coconut out of person A's hands and say "Sorry, you can't open it with no assistance, so if you want person B to help you with yours you both have to share"

or B. Realize that it doesn't really matter how many people it takes to open the coconut, you're still 3rd in the rotation and will get yours eventually..

or C. Assist person A, and B with their coconuts, since you're all stranded in the same predicament, and would rather not have person A or person B rip your coconut out of your hands if you were in the same situation..?


Just an end statement.. Remember that we're all here for the exact same reason.. To experience classic content with classic level gear. We all have the same goal, which is to have Fun. If you start begrudging people their fun just because you feel that they don't deserve <insert random stuff here>.. It makes the game horrible for everyone..

We talking like, survival mode? One coconut every 5 days is not going to nourish my monster physique. I would kill the scrawniest 3 people, keep one person (whom I am confident I could overcome) with me to share coconuts and feast on the flesh of the others.

[YendorLootmonkey]

We talking like, survival mode? One coconut every 5 days is not going to nourish my monster physique. I would kill the scrawniest 3 people, keep one person (whom I am confident I could overcome) with me to share coconuts and feast on the flesh of the others.

Lol wtf??

[Szeth]

It's called survival of the fittest Yendor.

That is my example.

[Wotsirb401]

I love szeth's response lol . Someone has been watching a lot of Always Sunny in Philly. talking about tacking on mass

[Szeth]

Derail: Success.

[Tricky Beverage]

greedy fucks will always be greedy fucks. PS

The case was made by Relapsee about guilds sharing their ragefire rotation. I said if that is the case

IB and VD had to share their rotation on ragefire. They raid together after all.

IB would not go for that, they won't even let you into VP with them for rots.

That is why I put all guilds on there and allowed them to get assistance if they could do it in the time frame.

Otherwise the rotation would be something like

TMO > Taken/div/bda > IB/VD (not in that order, but with the guilds that raid together rotating together)

btw, taken/div/bda can still fall out individually from the rotation. This means they have to reapply tho, and if they are all grouped together? What are the odds that VD/IB would let them all back on?

IMO, mine and relapsee's way was about as fair as it was going to get. Y'all *****s can hate all you want tho, 0ducks

I am going to do my best to respond to both Serin and Stealin. Stealin, while I fully understand that you are just trolling me (or us), I still think you bring up a valid point in your post. You say that in order for it to be fair for any two or more guilds to have to share a Ragefire rotation slot, IB and VD should have to share a slot (since we raid some things cooperatively). Stealin, you would argue that it's fair for Divinity and Taken to raid together, even though they both hold slots in the Ragefire rotation because IB and VD can both hold Ragefire rotation spots and IB and VD are allowed to raid Ragefire together if they want (even though IB and VD will probably never raid Ragefire together).

The problem with your reasoning is that IB can kill Ragefire in under 30 minutes of his spawn without VD, and VD can kill Ragefire within 30 minutes of his spawn without IB. (Obviously, TMO can also kill Ragefire within 30 minutes of his spawn, but I don't think you're suggesting that TMO should have to share a raid slot with anyone, since they don't raid cooperatively with any other guilds.)

The same has not been proven for the other three guilds. Now if the question is:
"Can _______________ (a. BDA /or/ b. Divinity /or/ c. Taken) kill Ragefire, given all the time they want?"
Then I think it's safe to say "Yes," that each obviously could.

Likewise, if the question is:
"Can _______________ (a. BDA AND b. Divinity AND c. Taken) kill Ragefire, together?"
Then I think again, it's obvious that the answer is "Yes."

HOWEVER, if the question is:
"Can _______________ (a. BDA /or/ b. Divinity /or/ c. Taken) get enough players online and mobilized to kill Ragefire in the 30 minute time frame considered standard by the top three guilds, without the help of another guild in the Ragefire rotation?"
Then the answer is not so clearly a "yes."

This seems like a reasonable thing to ask of a guild that wants to partake in the Ragefire rotation and is the standard I believe they should be held to when killing Ragefire. Now, BDA/Divinity/Taken, before any of you start to think that I'm disrespecting you, let me just say that you may ALL meet the above standard. I'm not saying any one of you can't mobilize and kill your Ragefire within 30 minutes without help. The simple fact is, I just don't know. But if you CAN, then whichever of you can do this (regularly, not just once to secure a rotation slot and then all as one guild in multiple rotation slots) SHOULD be given a spot in the Ragefire rotation. For all I know all three of you can do it, and if so, I believe you should each receive your own slot. But I do think it's reasonable to expect the above standard when engaging Ragefire -- engage promptly and with only one guild.

Now I will illustrate why the above (bolded) requirement is the only fair and acceptable standard by using two illustrations of the problems caused by allowing guilds on the rotation to help other guilds on the rotation.

For example, assume Divinity and Taken are allowed to raid Ragefire together (and take up two rotation slots), BDA raids on their own, and IB, TMO, and VD each raid on their own. We all rock along on a 6-slot rotation for two or three weeks, but then another guild conglomerate wants to try for a Ragefire slot. Let's assume it's Acyrid, The Warlords, Wudan, Trigarium, and Freedom Guard (yeah, I know some of these may or may not be plausible, I just chose five guilds at random) all wanting to do Ragefire together as one unit. And then if they are successful, they would like to have FIVE rotation slots, even though they are going to raid in each of the five slots as one unit. Suddenly, for Divinity, Taken, and BDA, Ragefire rotation guilds being able to help each other and still get a slot apiece doesn't look so fair does it?

Worse yet, let's change the scenario -- we'll say that TMO or IB (or even VD) has the players on at any given time to successfully kill Ragefire (which they always do). Let's use TMO as an example, not because there has been any indication they are planning such shenanigans, but just to make the example simple. So TMO decides to split into two guilds, The Mystical Order and The Medulla Oblongata. TMO & TMO then demand two Ragefire spots, and then both TMOs raid both Ragefires together. This would quite obviously be unfair. And while I realize it was probably just in jest, this sort of thing has actually been suggested before:

Can I drop my guild, enlist in The Medulla Oblongata, raid with TMO, and train VB with no raid suspension for TMO?

VD should share IB's raid suspension.

I (of course) don't agree with Jeremy's reasoning here, but I understand the point he was making with his hypothetical. And the hypothetical is roughly the same as my scenario above.

I apologize and will make this my last wall of text post on this issue. While I sometimes almost enjoy Stealin's trolling, I also know that replying with long, thought-out posts like this just makes me an easy target for more trolling (i.e. "TL;DR u care fag" or "u mad bro" etc). I understand why it's fun to troll me. Sadly, I just can't spend all my time paying the troll toll.

So that's the extremely long version of why Ragefire rotation guilds should not be allowed help from other Ragefire rotation guilds. It's not anything personal toward any one guild. In fact, I hope every guild that wants a slot in the Ragefire rotation is able to have one. I just think each guild should have to dispatch its own Ragefires. Good luck, friends!

[Autotune]

^ i stopped reading when you spouted the "just trolling" bs again. Seems that is VD's validation on everything lately.

[Lazortag]

HOWEVER, if the question is:
"Can _______________ (a. BDA /or/ b. Divinity /or/ c. Taken) get enough players online and mobilized to kill Ragefire in the 30 minute time frame considered standard by the top three guilds, without the help of another guild in the Ragefire rotation?"
Then the answer is not so clearly a "yes."

Actually the answer is clearly yes. We've killed Faydedar who is also a naggy clone without the help of another guild, several times, within 30 minutes of him spawning. We've killed Naggy (before he started banishing) without the help of another guild, also several times, also within 30 minutes of him spawning. Ragefire is a Naggy clone.

[Tricky Beverage]

Actually the answer is clearly yes. We've killed Faydedar who is also a naggy clone without the help of another guild, several times, within 30 minutes of him spawning. We've killed Naggy (before he started banishing) without the help of another guild, also several times, also within 30 minutes of him spawning. Ragefire is a Naggy clone.

Then I fully support your efforts. I didn't mean to be negative or discouraging, I was just putting forth a standard and truly didn't know.

[rigi]

nerdfire agreement

[Flunklesnarkin]

I am going to do my best to respond to both Serin and Stealin. Stealin, while I fully understand that you are just trolling me (or us), I still think you bring up a valid point in your post. You say that in order for it to be fair for any two or more guilds to have to share a Ragefire rotation slot, IB and VD should have to share a slot (since we raid some things cooperatively). Stealin, you would argue that it's fair for Divinity and Taken to raid together, even though they both hold slots in the Ragefire rotation because IB and VD can both hold Ragefire rotation spots and IB and VD are allowed to raid Ragefire together if they want (even though IB and VD will probably never raid Ragefire together).

The problem with your reasoning is that IB can kill Ragefire in under 30 minutes of his spawn without VD, and VD can kill Ragefire within 30 minutes of his spawn without IB. (Obviously, TMO can also kill Ragefire within 30 minutes of his spawn, but I don't think you're suggesting that TMO should have to share a raid slot with anyone, since they don't raid cooperatively with any other guilds.)

The same has not been proven for the other three guilds. Now if the question is:
"Can _______________ (a. BDA /or/ b. Divinity /or/ c. Taken) kill Ragefire, given all the time they want?"
Then I think it's safe to say "Yes," that each obviously could.

Likewise, if the question is:
"Can _______________ (a. BDA AND b. Divinity AND c. Taken) kill Ragefire, together?"
Then I think again, it's obvious that the answer is "Yes."

HOWEVER, if the question is:
"Can _______________ (a. BDA /or/ b. Divinity /or/ c. Taken) get enough players online and mobilized to kill Ragefire in the 30 minute time frame considered standard by the top three guilds, without the help of another guild in the Ragefire rotation?"
Then the answer is not so clearly a "yes."

This seems like a reasonable thing to ask of a guild that wants to partake in the Ragefire rotation and is the standard I believe they should be held to when killing Ragefire. Now, BDA/Divinity/Taken, before any of you start to think that I'm disrespecting you, let me just say that you may ALL meet the above standard. I'm not saying any one of you can't mobilize and kill your Ragefire within 30 minutes without help. The simple fact is, I just don't know. But if you CAN, then whichever of you can do this (regularly, not just once to secure a rotation slot and then all as one guild in multiple rotation slots) SHOULD be given a spot in the Ragefire rotation. For all I know all three of you can do it, and if so, I believe you should each receive your own slot. But I do think it's reasonable to expect the above standard when engaging Ragefire -- engage promptly and with only one guild.

Now I will illustrate why the above (bolded) requirement is the only fair and acceptable standard by using two illustrations of the problems caused by allowing guilds on the rotation to help other guilds on the rotation.

For example, assume Divinity and Taken are allowed to raid Ragefire together (and take up two rotation slots), BDA raids on their own, and IB, TMO, and VD each raid on their own. We all rock along on a 6-slot rotation for two or three weeks, but then another guild conglomerate wants to try for a Ragefire slot. Let's assume it's Acyrid, The Warlords, Wudan, Trigarium, and Freedom Guard (yeah, I know some of these may or may not be plausible, I just chose five guilds at random) all wanting to do Ragefire together as one unit. And then if they are successful, they would like to have FIVE rotation slots, even though they are going to raid in each of the five slots as one unit. Suddenly, for Divinity, Taken, and BDA, Ragefire rotation guilds being able to help each other and still get a slot apiece doesn't look so fair does it?

Worse yet, let's change the scenario -- we'll say that TMO or IB (or even VD) has the players on at any given time to successfully kill Ragefire (which they always do). Let's use TMO as an example, not because there has been any indication they are planning such shenanigans, but just to make the example simple. So TMO decides to split into two guilds, The Mystical Order and The Medulla Oblongata. TMO & TMO then demand two Ragefire spots, and then both TMOs raid both Ragefires together. This would quite obviously be unfair. And while I realize it was probably just in jest, this sort of thing has actually been suggested before:



I (of course) don't agree with Jeremy's reasoning here, but I understand the point he was making with his hypothetical. And the hypothetical is roughly the same as my scenario above.

I apologize and will make this my last wall of text post on this issue. While I sometimes almost enjoy Stealin's trolling, I also know that replying with long, thought-out posts like this just makes me an easy target for more trolling (i.e. "TL;DR u care fag" or "u mad bro" etc). I understand why it's fun to troll me. Sadly, I just can't spend all my time paying the troll toll.

So that's the extremely long version of why Ragefire rotation guilds should not be allowed help from other Ragefire rotation guilds. It's not anything personal toward any one guild. In fact, I hope every guild that wants a slot in the Ragefire rotation is able to have one. I just think each guild should have to dispatch its own Ragefires. Good luck, friends!



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